Drop it, sckitten, she doesn't need a debate on her thread.

Can I suggest that you first allow him to recover from the assault and abuse of your adultery? For example, when you beat the shi* of someone and break their bones, shouldn't you give the bones time to heal before you demand they run a race for you? There is nothing that he has done in your marriage that is as damaging as having an affair, so I imagine it galls him to be victimized by you only to be told that he needs to clean up his act.

The fact is that you are 50% responsible for the state of the marriage, 100% responsible for the affair and only have the power to clean up your side of the street. So, I would suggest you clean up your side of the street before you commence demanding he clean up his.

Let his wounds heal from the damage you inflicted before you make demands of him.


Melody, isn't this your advice to me? Why wasn't he given the same advice? And no, Melody I'm not going to drop it.

So you never answered my question, lady. ******Edit****** What makes you such authority on these issues either? It's convenient for you to bash me but when the spotlight is shined on you you hide. See I know your tactic....put me down to make yourself feel better and to seem like you have more credibility but you don't. *********edit***********

No one has bashed you, sckitten, only said the truth that you told us yourself; maybe you consider that "bashing." One does not need a "psychology degree" to know Marriage Builders principles anymore than you need a psychology degree to dole out the bad advice you are so generously passing out.

Again, you need to drop it out of respect to brokenlove. This is her thread and she doesnt' need this crap.

GROW UP! This is NOT a one-upsmanship forum! It is a public forum. Everyone has the right to their opinion, even if it's not a MB opinion. You can say you disagree, but to tell someone else that you are right and they are wrong...or that you have the "truth" and they don't...get real! It's up to the adult asking for advice on this forum to decide if they find the opinion helpful.


Where does the issue of POJA come into this? I don't see where there can be mutual enthusiastic agreement on SF right now. I don't understand how BH's husband's need for SF is anymore important than her needing time to deal with the trauma she's gone through. We're not talking a year past D-day. And what message does it give the WS? "Yes, dear. It's ok for you to go out and have sex with various women and I'll take you back into my heart and vagina right away....no problem, because your needs are more important than mine. That's what forced you to have affairs in the first place. I know better now than to ask for my needs to be met over yours." Now that would be sick behavior in my book!

"Trauma" has occurred. Engaging in SF at this time could further traumatize BL. What good would that do in the long run for this marriage? It's hard to heal something if you sit in denial about it or try and ignore it or suppress it.

It appears to me that BL is trying to come to grips with the full impact of her husband's choices. While time is very helpful to healing the visions, it's not the only healing factor. With all the disasters in our world recently, I don't think that telling people to just get on with their normal lives...that they'd get over their trauma, losses, visions of dead bodies, etc. "over time"...would have been the most helpful suggestion to their healing process. There's truth to it, but I don't believe that using it as a first response to trauma would be the most helpful.

Saying "no" doesn't have to be about "punishing" someone. It can be about honoring and respecting one's own needs. This is something BOTH people in a relationship need to do to create healthy boundaries. Healthy boundaries are what lead to feelings of safety, intimacy, passion. Part of being an adult involves delaying instant gratification for the wellbeing of self or another.

The BS walks along a river. They must cross it if they want to recover their marriage. When they wade in is entirely their choice. But...it doesn't get shallower with time, and it doesn't get narrower. The same ghosts and visions will lurk a month, or a year from now.

Good luck whatever you decide.

***neak ducks out quickly, wondering where her slippers have gotten to. it is way past her bedtime, and she is afraid of hornets.***

Hi BL.

I know that you are upset and very confused. It is good that you are reading here and asking questions.

The advice you get here comes in many forms from many different personalities. Some will gently lead you with the truth, some will slap your face to get your attention. Both are valuable, but perhaps not equally effective at each given moment.

I have a question for you. Do you wish to save your marriage? Have you really thought about it? Have you addressed the issues that were present in your marriage before your husband strayed? Many affairs are the result of unmet needs. Have you identified what this woman gave your H that your marriage didn’t? Now, please realize that I’m not saying that you are at all responsible for him having an affair . . . that is all him. Your are ½ responsible for the state of the marriage though and something was probably off for him to do this.

I asked if you want to save your marriage. If you do, this place can help. I don’t think that, at least right now, you are going to like what the program of MB has to say. It is going to say that if you want to have a happy marriage you must meet the needs of your H. If needs go unmet for too long his love for you will die. It is really that simple.

I will not tell you to have sex with your H. I will tell you that if sex is a high need for H and you deny him for too long he will fall out of love with you.

Again, I know you’re hurt. He has abused your relationship, and in turn, your trust. You need to decide if you wish to continue this marriage. Take some time and decide. I’m sure your husband has a lot of guilt for what he did and expects to be punished. He probably won’t leave while you checkout of the marriage for a while to decide what to do. If you do decide, after some deep reflection and soul searching, that you wish to stay married then you will need to meet his needs. He will need to meet yours too. Does your husband even know what your needs are? There is a questionnaire on this site that you should both fill out. Good stuff there.

All the best.

Well, I am going to be very open here. Possibly you can learn something from my situation. Although I am not going through the effects of adultery in my relationship my wife and I have serious issues. I am trying to apply the MB ideology to solve them. I did go through a wayward fiancé shortly before we were to marry (not W). That was very many years ago and possibly my present issues have something to do with that.

Anyway, back to SF. A diminishing in our sex life was one of the first indications I had that things were wrong. I started feeling like she was somewhere else when we were intimate. I experienced her just wanting me to finish and get it over with. Eventually it got longer in between and great pressure was felt by both of us. Me wondering if it would be tonight and she hoping she would escape one more night.

For me the feeling of rejection was utter and complete. That hurt more than any sexual frustration. And the feeling of selfishness and guilt after SF. I felt like I had molested my own wife. Plus the sex was terrible.

It has taken me a long time to get my wife to talk about our issues. I am getting there. She does not want out of our marriage but was perfectly happy to “love me but not be in love with me”. I on the other hand want a wife. I am hoping that by using some of the MB techniques I will get her back.

What I have done is evaluate my need for SF. It is still there but I realized it is not getting fulfilled by W. Although I can get physical release with her I need the emotional release that makes sex with someone you love so special. I told my wife that I would not initiate sex with her. I told her I desire her all the time and can not accept “no sex” but am willing wait. When she feels good enough about us she has to make the move.

Since then I have done a lot of work in making her love me. At first I thought her issues were that I had taken her for granted. Maybe, but I also see she has taken me for granted. I have been more attentive to her needs but at the same time defined my boundaries better.

The result is that already three weeks into this work I am experiencing more warmth from her. She holds me when asleep, she kisses me goodbye and she cuddles up to me when we watch TV. All things that were missing for months. I am certain that sometimes soon she will reach out to me. I can wait. It will be worth it. It also makes going to bed easier. I have no expectations, she feels no pressure and we both get better rest.

I will not accept this forever. Not sure how long, but to be blunt there are ways available for me to get physical release. It does damage my ego that as a +40 year male I have to resort to that but I see the goal I am aiming at and am willing to make sacrifices to reach that goal. And although men have been trying to convince women for centuries to the contrary no male has ever died because of a sperm-buildup.

Bottom line: Just as I “sacrifice” SF to get my wife to a better place to solve issues – eventually leading to better SF maybe you should make the sacrifices. Above all I would talk to your man and make him really realize he has to work at your relationship. After I talked openly about my needs to my wife I feel we are getting there. Please note when I say sacrifice I do not mean forever only to reach the goal.

One does not "POJA" their emotional needs. Since when are emotional needs up for POJA like a cafeteria plan? Some get met, some don't, all based on the feelings du jour of the spouse? Even so, that would be an improvement over what he has now, which is no say at all. Can her H quit his job and stop providing FS because he doesn't "feel" like it? I don't quite think it works like that.

This is a WS who has stopped his affair some months ago and is working on repairing his marriage. To refuse to meet his needs is punishment, plain and simple. It is an approach that will cause him to fall out of love. It is unrealistic to expect any spouse to live in a marriage where his needs being met are contingent upon the BS "feeling" like it and until then they just go hang themselves. Withholding SF in this case is doubly harmful because the WS will just feel punished for his crimes at a time when he needs to be given hope for the marriage.

Such an approach is damaging to her marriage, which will really make her feel bad in the long run. I am appalled that you would encourage her to continue to damage her marriage. It has been damaged enough already.

I understand that she is hurt and sees visions in her head - don't we all - but that is no reason to refuse to meet his needs. Those visions go away with time with or without SF. The point is if she wants to save her marriage, this is not the way to do it.

BrokenLove,

If I had disrespected my husband's top Emotional Needs I would be divorced now.

Even though he and I were having sex while he was engaged in an A that was all about meeting his Emotional Need for sex -- that's he got drawn in, she let him know very quickly and openly that she wanted to have sex with him-- We both went immediately and had the Full Battery of tests including the more obscure ones for HPV and Herpes. Not always included so ask your Dr.

When nothing showed up in the first tests, I took it on faith, but had I still been uneasy I could have, and did think seriously about, asking for condoms to be used.

My H did quickly fall back in love with me, and though I was so hurt I never stopped loving him. I didn't want to hurt him, and when we finally did the EN Questionnaire he wrote that he would SF 10 times a day!! (See! Top EN, I knew it!)

I told him that would be impossible, but he said, it doesn't have to go all the way through all the time, he just wanted the sexy actions that can lead to sex 10 times a day. (How about that ladies? Interesting offbeat way of thinking equals real good information.)

Are you in IC yet? And you both need MC together too!

I know it's hard, but not too hard if you really love him, he needs to believe you can forgive him and that you really love him, and this is a high-return way that you can show that to him.


Keep posting and let us know how it goes, and good luck!

PS MelodyLane has been here a long time, and she gives really good advice sometimes it sounds like a 2x4. (Sometimes 2x4s do help.)

A lot of assumtions are being made here without knowing everything there is to know about brokenlove's situation. While it may not go along with MB principles, her therapist who knows the details is in agreement with how she is proceeding. And we who do not know the situation are agruing based on limited information. Back in July her husband was still flirting with women according to one of her posts.

Here is the question I would like to ask, what is the husbands real emtional needs that caused him to have the affair in the first place? Have those emotional needs been addressed. Something caused him to have the affair, what was it? If it was SF as an emotional need then there is going to be a problem if BL is not ready and she attempts SF and does not meet his expectations. Then it's back to the OW because she isn't good enough or not wild enough. I'm just thinking like a guy, because I have used that line before because the real ENs weren't addressed.

You know why sex comes up as a number 1 EN for guys, it's because they don't know how to express their true ENs. Guys can't relate to feelings, but they know what feels good. A sex addict can prove it. Sex addiction is not about sex as strange as that sounds, its about the emotional needs. Guys just can't express feelings so researchers end up hearings sex as number 1.

And if her husbands true ENs aren't met then it's just a matter of time before he things about the other women. We haven't even asked if those have been addressed. We haven't even asked BL how he is addressing hers.

There is a letter in which Dr. Harley talks about the offeneder needs to be willing to make the concessions and meet the offended ENs, but then the person offended does need to move towards meeting the offenders ENs. And I agree, BL will need to move towards meeting her husbands ENs, but where is her husband right now? We know he is in the house, but that is all I know. I would think her therapist nows more than I do and I was just supporting BL.

I still think STD testing is important and should be done by her husband. He should be the first to volunteer.

AskMe, sexual fulfillment is a "true", legitimate emotional need just like affection or financial security or conversation. It has nothing to do with the inability to "express feelings." It can be the top EN of men or women, but it is a legitimate emotional need that is every bit as important as any other.

I gave you a link earlier to "Dr. Harvey's" articles on the concept of emotional needs, it might help to read it.

Here is another on sexual fulfillment: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3310_sex.html

The Most Important Emotional Needs: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html

I think there was a misunderstanding of what I was trying to say. Some men do not know how to recognize what their own needs are and so they are unable to express them. It's great someone put them down on a piece of paper, listed them out 1-10, but most men can't tell you what their needs are. They think sex is the answer to everything, but it's just something they hide behind when there are other ENs that are unmet.

Well, I don't get the sense that the WS in this case is unable to recognize his need for SF. He seems pretty clear about that, doesn't he? I have never observed that men, in particular, had trouble identifying their EN's and do just fine on the EN questionaire.

Well, I'm a man. I pretty much know what my needs are. I will say that their importance to me are not static. Sometimes sex is very important, sometimes it is affection and praise. As is often the case, the need that has been left out seems to be the one that I most want to scratch at any given time.

I'm sorry Askme, I don't think most men are as emotionally vapid as you seem to imply.

The only reason for my statements is that I have ministered to men who have been envolved in affairs. When I try to get them to write out why they started the affair most of the time they can't express their feelings. I actually have a sheet full of feelings words that I use to help them describe how they feel. Most of the men just don't instantly take out a piece of paper and write 1-10 here are my needs. It takes a questionare, it takes some counseling, it takes advice....but unassisted a lot of men are not in touch with feelings.

Dr. Harley tells a couple he doesn't know what their needs are, he just knows the average of most people and it's up to them to work it out between the two of them.

And ML is right the husband has stated his desire for SF. My question is, does that mean it happens immediately? BL has mentioned in another post her husband was still flirting with women. I am sure that affects her EN for trust and security. For me it would be hard to know I was going to share myself with someone who still was not at a stable place. I don't call it punishment. I think it's reasonable concern. I think it's where the couple needs to come together and be very open and honest and have some discuss. I'm not advocating the BL abstain from SF forever. But she has some ENs too and I think they jointly need to have some honest discussions about where they are in the marriage.

*********edit**********

Dear Brokenlove,
Just wanted you to know, Melody also pushed me around, insulted me, baited me, and held a mirror up in front of my face, when I didn't have to courage to face what needed to be done.
I was insulted, but other more experienced posters that had gone on to recover their marriages told me Melody was instrumental in helping them do this.

Ok, be insulted, get mad, but listen to what she says, she knows what works.

Between Melody baiting me, Ark's gentle advice, BobPure sharing his early stories of his beloved Squid's ugly behavior, and others, they coached me til I gathered enough strength to do what needed to be done.

If you came here for advice, you can't beat any of the previous people I mentioned.

Sincerely,
K.D.'s Heartbreak