Hi, yes well as a dear friend said the sh1t nexus landed in our home recently.

Nothing new, in that same old same old.

The nexus is that I, Ktulu, want Real Tangible Action.

So I put it to my Darling Husband, whom the sun does shine for appearantly (please note this is observational sarcasm).

My ever Loving Husband's response to make me feel more loved & cared for was to tell me to "f.o. with my cr4p" & reject any moves made on him.

Charming he is when he wants.

Now that's my selfish b1tch take on the scenario.

Plus demanding cow that I am, I've gone & booked us into Retrouvaille, which he hasn't as of yet agreed to, but quote "You (Ktulu) have your mind made up already, so why do you want to go, if I (husband) go at least I'd go with an open mind."

So I sat I thought about that one.

Am I such a person that would appear open to change & improvement, yet not actually doing anything constructive.

Heck the fact I got into the same bed was my idea of recovery for a while, never mind sharing the same breathing space.

So the grown up me has to recognise myself.

I can clearly & easily & often way too readily point out what the ****** my husband does & doesn't do for me.

Being in saintly mode myself, I figured I was entitled to blow the gasket now & again.

I didn't realise I was acting in an entitled manner until today! Shock, shame, oh sh1t.

It was another fab poster here who pointed out my hubby was being in entitlement mode. So my basis was what behaviour is exactly stuck in that twisted mode. I see our pattern.

We are both 'entitlers' (sounds like a rude game <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> if such a word exists).

We both use justification for our so called needs, which when not met, jump straight to demands & disrespectful judgements, put downs come up, we hurt each other eventually in defense mode.

If nothing is resolved with clarity, either one of us
gives in,
walks away or
gets angry
Which ever it is, it does not draw us closer in any way.

So I reread the how to break your husband's bollo3ks page
and thought about it again from his perspective.

MMMMMMM

Yeah I want him to do ABC. Can't make him.

So I want to enjoy my hubby & be able to call him "de dogs Bllx" (colloq for fab fella) it's up to me, I am not going to be his or anyone else's b1tch. Me I have a big heart, a hubby I love, a brood of kids & a small biz.

The importance of knowing what I do & will do to make a difference.

Learning K.

This whole thing here is pretty interesting ... but, I wanted to parlay just the 2 above quotes.

Quote #1 ....I betcha your response to the "F.O." remark was anger. Am I correct? Did you volley some uglyness back and forth for awhile after that?

I have NEVER said "F.O." to my H in 24 years, and he has NEVER said that to me .... Is this something that goes on between you on a regular basis?

Quote #2 ... are you ready to try something completely different?

Thank you Pep!

Yes oh God Yes.

I have being doing different but Not Well, advice on what worked appreciated, please.

Response to
Quote #1.... "hey, I know your not in the mood to talk right now, would you like to scedule this later midweek?" calm, undercurrent of feeling buttons pushed remaining calm.

2nd F.O. comes. I address that specifically, calm, calm, calm, not happy, don't like be called names, disrespectful.

His voice raises, & history re written, re my abilities to do anything right!

MMMMMMMMM (aka Marge Simpson fume)

I leave the room.

I return with Peace offering, cuppa, back rub, dismissed, dismissed, dismiss.

YES PEPPER READY, WILLING & ABLE TO DO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

Did I admit my anger......Uhuh.... yes I do feel anger, I have struggled to not react negatively.

What do you love about him? What is his "best thing" he does for the marriage?

Serious question ... this needs to begin where you both are doing things RIGHT ... and develop a plan where you build up from areas of success ...... instead of trying to build up from where you consistently fail.

What is your best area of connectedness?

I am about to go get ready for work and it may be hours before you hear from me again ... others will likely pitch in.

Thank you.

It may take me hours to form a clearer picture.

Off the bat I would claim he is incredible caring when he wants to be.

A great father, when he wants to be.

___________

He might be as stuck as I am to answer this.

" Look Woman !I enjoy supplementing my perceioved self-worth by encouraging teh flattery of strangers. I enjoy cultivating slightly naughty relationships with women, and teh 'fan club' there is of me at my work. Yeah, I know it sdangerous and disrespectful to my wife, but heck its diespectful of ME to think I can stop being a flirt/ gods gift to women.

i NEED this : my gender/my culture/my upbringing almost FORCES me to behave in a polygamous manner even if I do not intend to be unfaithful anymore. My Wife wants to castrate me. Not going to happen. I am far too insecure in the value I bring to our life without there being a frisson of jealously anf flattery to keep things interesting.

If I defend with attack, I may yet not have to confront my behaviour and my busllsh1t justifications for it and actually realise that GOOD married husbands and father do not think or behave in this way. But for now I will shout and swear and challenge. She always takes less than she needs and it will soon blow over."

is what I think.

You want you H to commit to the role he had chosen in the life he chose when he married you and had children with you.

You actually * ARE * entitled to that.

Off the bat I would claim he is incredible caring when he wants to be.

be specific...

Ok, is it only me or what. I have been ROFLMAO listening to the lingo that ktula and bob have been spouting off with. It might be serious, but I'm sorry, the dogs came into see why I was laughing so hard.
Or am I just off my rocker and everything seems funny now. Maybe its time I give the boards a rest.
Pretty soon the neighbors are going to think I'm entertaining someone because of all the laughing going on in here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Very Real Kds - glad anyone can get a smile out of our mind boggling situ (feels like a script for a stupid send up comedy of errors soap opera at times).

I had to reread thread to see the humour, thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Keep on laughing it's much more productive. & remember to feed the dogs. Let the neighbours wonder it's good for you.
& none of their business. Enjoy life.
_______________


Okay. Now down the nitty gritty.

Yes you've really got my attention Pep.

Holy cow (no not you - just a batman phrase) I am stunned at my inability to list off all the 'Wonderful Joys' my husband does to show he cares.

Intial gut reactions kinda like the poem "Let me show the ways I love you" - & it goes on, & on, & on, all mighty wonderful, beautiful happy happy.

<Shakes self back, slugs on now cold coffee> Oh yeah, 'em specifically what does my husband do to show he cares that gives me the sense of feeling loved.......... aaaawwwwwww do I reallly have to answer this?????

Re Incredibly Caring Actions

I have to think more clearly to put specific actions in print.

Maybe few days.

Sounds like I'm copping out.

I promise I am not.

I am truly stumped in the thought of evidential caring

Aside from the obvious, being here.

How should I proceed with this.

If I am to interpret the current, what does my husband bring to the marriage.

God don't shoot me...... & I hope it doesn't anger him further if he reads this.

I have named the specifics I would like to feel secure with him:
Eye contact when communicating
Acknowledgement beyond cursory hello when entering our home
A hug
A smile
A joke
A contact
A reach out

I know I'm doing this wrong -10, that is not what you asked me.

Pepper if I list what my husband does specifically to show he cares, it reads like he is currently a selfish arrogant B, who only does things that do not put him in any discomfort.

I can list his good points, his traits, his skills, his all wonderful stuff.

With regard to our relationship, he can apply or deny as he sees fit that he thinks I deserve.

He can give love today & withhold tomorrow, based on how he perceives what I deserve.

I am sure if he put pen to paper. He might say the people here are all "damaged & stuck".

As for bad language. It is reserved again specifically for me. In the pro world of work with people he respects & admires he simply doesn't curse at them or with them.

My own slide into foul descriptives has no excuse.
I actually told son "When people curse it really means they have to learn to use our language to it's fullest, or are so caught up in their emotional turmoil they forget to think before they talk & prove themselves ignornant, better to breathe little buddy, think how best to say it, especially if it is an expression of anger, then when you're clear on the message and the way your friend will hear it, let it out". There I go restoring my own self, geeze our kids can really be on (good)conscience at times.

I know I can climb into an ignoramus suit or change.
I will change I do NOT enjoy the current, not one bit.

_________________

Bob
"If I defend with attack, I may yet not have to confront my behaviour and my busllsh1t justifications for it and actually realise that GOOD married husbands and father do not think or behave in this way. But for now I will shout and swear and challenge. She always takes less than she needs and it will soon blow over."

How do say that to someone without wrecking their sense of self?

It hasn't blown over.

His perceived only problem in this marriage is I raise issues as they occur, they don't bother him so why should he care, & why should I be the one to point out some of his actions are not what I like or appreciate. If I'd only shut up, smile sweetly, dress cutely all the time, produce more nice meals, & be his totally adoring fan, life would be grande.

The kicker here is I have been on an ego boosting mission for him most of our married life.

The times I failed to feed him adoration, ie preggers, working away, needed my own building up, he 'had to' get attention elsewhere, appearantly he deserved it. "That's what 'normal' is".

_____________

Off to do some more loving caring actions.

Point me in a solid direction, or shake my shoulders.

This is not for the meek hearted.

We do go on dates too for fun.

Thanks K

Ktulu

i can FEEL your fundamental incompatability from here.

I have no doubts that people can MAKE themselves compatable from non compatable.

But they both have to dig from opposite ends.

One person can't do all the digging to the other end.

Incompatability ....... is transient in this our marriage it could be a current choice or ignorance.

Aren't all relationships appearing as incompatablile when there is unresolved disputes in any organisation.

We need to learn a better way to:
communicate
negotiate
problem solve

Killer is we can both do this very effectively in business worlds.

We do have solids.

I neglectfully haven't listed them.

It is I who am risk to this marriage.

As I wonder whether I have what it requires to do more & exactly what that is, will I be able to last until we are on an even keel & will my husband reciprocate.

We do still love each other very much.

We are reacting & responding contrary to each other.

We need help.

I am the one who has said this, feels this, wants this.

Our choices are really simple.

Do what is required to make our relationship mutually satisfying.

Or walk away.

I am with the work ethos at the mo. I feel, know, we are worth it, my husband is worth my investing in, our children are worth our doing it well, I am worth it too.

We all want rewarding relationships.
I believe we can have them if we put in what is required.

Thanks Ktulu

Open to proactive suggestions.

Ktulu

I can't offer 'proactive' ideas because from your posts I glean that your H is entitled and is putting his 'freedom to roam' boundaries firmly in place. You can choose to butt his boundaries and see what happens, or you can adhere to his boundaries and stuff your discomfort at them.

The third way requires that H wants to site more mutually accetable behaviour boundaries and theres no sign of that. you need to dig at each end.

PS. I am the biggest risk to our marriage too. Not necessarily a bad thing.

As there is obviously no sign of mutually acceptable behaviour.

I am stuck at butting his behaviour.

A few things struck me in your posts:

1. You said he c/b caring when he wants.

Caring is not a turn on and off feelng. It is either there or not. What he c/b is doing a good deed once in a while when he wants and hurtful when he wants. Point is he isn't consistent. So he doesn't deserve t/b called caring....even sporatically.

Ask him if it is ok to start his dinner but not serve it. Or some illustration where conistency is crucial. Then explain that good acts 'sometimes' does not cover for bad acts.

U really shouldn't settle for some good acts sprinkled with abusive acts. A hug does not fix him cussing you out.

2. Identify your boundaries and implement them. Now this could lead to plan B or D but better than that then enabling his current behavior.

3. U and your family are not t/b the butte of any bad behavior. Mine did similar when he said NC, in reality is was not NC and his behavior was a tell tale sign. Even later when the anger came up, I quelled it when I reminded him that his anger mode reminded me of his A and he now scared me. I pulled out plan B. At first I had to actually implement it, now the mention of it is enough.

4. Ask him if he needs to see a doctor or get into some sort of anger management class. I am sure he will fight it, then look at him....don't say much..... just let him feel his own anger. [color:"blue"] For us, I learned to approach the Xws by asking a question, like:

Orchid: Can I ask you a question?

Xws: Yea, what.

Orchid: Hm.... you seem angry, I will come back later.

Xws: No, I am not angry, what do you want?

Orchid: I don't feel safe right now. I will return.

..... later:

Orchid: Can I ask you a question?

Xws: Yes.

Orchid: Do you want chicken or beef?

Xws? ???? Uh... chicken.

..... later

Orchid: Can I ask you a question

Xws: Uh... ok.

Orchid: I don't feel well.....

Xws: Why?

Orchid: Not sure, I feel queezy like on d/d. Is something up?

(Now this is where an identifying moment arises), there c/b 2 reactions:

Reaction 1:

Xws (with anger): No, of course not.... you are just crazy, you are always trying to pin the A on me. You want to make me leave again?

(Hm..... tell tale sign... some kinda A still going on).

Reaction 2:
Xws (with concern): No, of course not... I am sorry you are not feeling well. What can I do to help? Do the dishes? Go to bed and rest. I will be in soon. You don't have to worry. I am not nuts anymore. [/color]

Now I write this script because.....I experienced both.

Is it a behavior patter change? Yes. Should it be? Yes.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid thank you so much for taking the time to put in all the details, I really really appreciate it.

This is so strange in a familiar way.

The following is text dialogue between spouse me done before I even read your post.

Ktulu
"Stomach is churning wondering why we can't say hi to each other while your at work."

Husband
"You expect me to do something to fix your stomach?
The problem is not your stomach and you know why I can't deal with you during work, same reason I had to work until 2am. I am not trying to be hurtful but I can not function in work and deal with the stuff you constantly throw at me at the same time"

Could be logical.

I appear to be really bothering him.

I must be seeming icky, clingy, to him.

I had clearly expressed my desire to contacted during the day.
He has specified NO contact from me during the day.

My husband has leisurely lunches, followed by walks in the grounds. That all seems fine and healthy for him.

So why does he get sooooo bothered when his wife rings to say hi during his lunch breaks or walks??

Why does he not ring me on these breaks????

He says he doesn't want to deal with me at work.
He compartmentalises very nicely, so he'd like to keep me out of his working life so he can focus on it.

Ordinarily in a healthy relationship I would be happy that husband is begining to care for his own health, watching his diet, (he has new ideas of what's healthy etc.), going for walks etc., I'd actively encourage him, h3ll I announced to the world what a wonderful man he was & marketed him well, even dressed him attractively for all his affairs <<shaking my head at my blindness>>

My conundrum, may be unfounded.

Who is he eating with - his colleagues.
Who is he walking with every day - his colleagues.

Why again can't you talk to your wife infront of these people?

Why do you snap at me? & definitely heard giggles in the background? "Oh, I was in the corridor".

Why can't you step back a pace on your walk & call me?
"Are you serious, it's from point A to B, we always walk that way".

Who is we?
"You know male colleague & husband"
any others?
"come on, what do want me to say"
the truth
"of course lots of people walk, you know"

All answered angrily or dismissively, as if unreasonable questions being asked.
Totally calm exterior, inwardly Ktulu is closing down her heart, wondering when will this breakthrough occur?, will he ever, ever understand? Are we simply not communicating well enough for the other to hear.

"You don't trust me"
I know, & I truly don't like living with that.

"I tell you where I am, who I'm with"
you have not left me much option except to take your word for it I think I'd like proof.

"You haven't Change"
I have & I haven't I am stronger than I realised or ever gave myself credit for. Then again there are parts of me I very much like, the honesty, integrity, & values parts especially.

No passwords, no emails, same phone no.s, I can't put my finger on it, it just doesn't feel right.

This man who says "I like my life" yet rejects any sentimentality/emotional stuff from his wife.
Biz during biz please, perfunctionary only.

Strange when children ring as they do, he can coo & ahhh (good thing) & tell them he loves them, misses them etc.

Am I being cruel?? I did say when a man loves a woman he wants the world to know, he would speak up confidently to let the world know, he is married to his wife, even hoist a banner in the air. (ok I don't expect the banner, little sweetness would be nice).

Got a compliment from him on Friday last....even more growth from me, of course I was pleased to receive, but frankly I didn't expect it so was obviously surprised which pleased him more.

I dunno, could be looking for something that isn't.

I tried to live with blinkers on. I got ran over.

This time it will be different. Huh??

Ok Ktulu,

Time to ask him if he is 'bi-sexual'. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I asked the WS that and he looked shocked. I said, why r u shocked.... you are doing crazy things, why not? I mean, if you are or were, certainly wouldn't shock me anymore.

See when it is something he really isn't doing, you will see how he steps up to the plate to defend himself. Ha! There you got him.....

I told the Ws, if you put that much effort into rebuilding my trust, then maybe I'd have some trust in you.

I put it all right back on his shoulders. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Do the same.

JMHO,
L.