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Ya know what Pep? Even the ones that are tough to get through to (like moi)hear some of what you are saying. I found myself being impatient with a newbie WS recently and you know what? The 2x4 to his head worked! Some are receptive and some are not. I have to watch myself too getting impatient with WS's only because of my own sit. {{{pep}}} Hope you are doing better.


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me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
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Spicey-Musical Group: How goes the rest cure?

it goes like this ~~~~> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Got Harriet Lerner's book from the library .... Fear And other Uninvited Guests ... enjoying picking through that book, looking for any pearls ....

There was one example I really enjoyed .... she was treating a client with rejection anxiety who really wanted to ask a woman out but was held back by his fear of rejection.

Lerner asked him:

"On a scale of 1 to 10, how motivated are you to solve your problem?"

She explained the "1" meant that he'd like to ask her out but in truth he didn't have much energy to work on the problem.

And, a "10" meant he would do anything -- dangle from the Golden Gate Bridge -- if he knew it would accomplish his goal. (remember the goal is to overcome his fear, not necessarily get the girl)

he said he was a "10".

So she gave him homework assignment that went like this:

"Your problem is you don't have enough experience with rejection." She told him he needed to accumulate rejections ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He was to go to a popular mall and one at a time ask random women out for a cup of coffee. She gave him a script to follow.

"Hello. My name is ____ and I hope you don't think I am being rude but I am wondering if you would like to have coffee with me?"

... he could not veer from the script.

He was to compile 75 rejections to get enough experience with rejection before he asked the woman he desired out of a date.

He failed to get 75 rejections ... most women said "no" ... but some said "yes" !!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

He was about to approach a stunning woman, the kind he knew he didn't stand a snowball's chance in Hades with .... when he stopped and realized ... if he could ask THAT woman out, he knew he could ask out the woman he actually did want to date.

Turns out .... he did ask out the woman he had the hots for ... and she rejected him because she was already in a relationship.

And he was fine ! He eventually asked out a different woman, and they began a lovely relationship.

The lesson was

every rejection became a resounding success while each acceptance ("sure I will have coffee with you") obstructed progress toward completing his homework of 75 rejections

This solution to fear of rejection really appealed to me.

Lerner says obviously, this would not work for every situation ... for instance, she would not send a person who did not look sweet and unintimidating on such a task.

Also, she knew this person very well, and trusted that he had good common sense and would not behave in any way that would cause him to come under mall security scrutiny !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

here are her key points in this example:

action is powerful

succeed by failing

risk feeling ridiculous

invite fear in

motivation matters


anywho ... it is an enjoyable lightweight read and I am having fun with this book

LowOrbit #1500172 10/19/05 09:00 AM
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How are you feeling today, Pep?

Still nursing the black eyes from lemon's 2x4?

I feel GREAT .... Lemonframingham-man loves me ... he just doesn't want to admit it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Quote
Go take a ride in your H's Corvette again...send us a postcard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ahhhhhh a wonderful suggestion .... roger-wilco (what does that mean anyway?)

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I have to watch myself too getting impatient with WS's only because of my own sit.

You may want to be very careful about where you spend your limited energy .... there is a finite amount of emotional reserve in all of us .... spend yours on yourself first <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Pepperband #1500174 10/19/05 09:18 AM
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And I am awarding myself with a medal for something I did at home....

I developed a PLAN to deal with the expected blow-up of one of my kids when he discovers his phone service has been terminated.

my plan is this ~~~>

"Yes. I realize you had a tough choice to make. Pay your phone bill or pay your car insurance. You chose car insurance, which I think was very smart. One day you will be able to afford both."

His cell phone is under our umbrella, and we elected to discontinue service if he could not pay his way. We are responsible to make sure the bill is settled, and we told him that if this happends, the service is gone.

We are expecting some degree of anger and posturing from our son.

my plan is to stick to my script and not to react to his emotions ... just respond to the reality that in life, some tough choices need to be made, and I think he made the better choice.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

This is MIMI having FLASHBACKS of the DREADED cellphone bills of YOUNG ADULT SONS......


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Hi Pep ~ here I am, late to the party as usual.

I think K's comments to you were on target.

I try, and don't always succeed, to limit my posting to sharing my experience, strength and hope and then practice detachment from the OUTCOME.

Here's your 2x4:

You are exhausted from trying to control outcomes. If everyone would just do it my way...the world would work out much better right?

Get out of God's way and stop trying to do His job.

You and me, are in a support role here, not a management role.

Every individual has their own right to make their own choices and has to choose their own path and journey.

To try to 'shorten' the journey for someone else is to attempt to deny life experiences that offer growth, wisdom and maturity.

That little fixer, codependent control freak comes out in all of us when we offer advice and then expect a specific outcome -ie the poster to say "Oh yes great Ms Wise Pep" and do what you said.

Let go, let God.

God has a bigger imagination and way more strength than you or I.


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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"roger wilco"

http://www.ac6v.com/73.htm#roger

for anyone who is interested in the origin .... about half-way down ...

KEWL

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Dealing with teenagers...

Can we call that "Plan T"?

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Dealing with teenagers...

Can we call that "Plan T"?

ay-eye captain <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I will report back to you the success of "MY plan T"
because my ONLY expected outcome is to control MYSELF

no matter what his emotional reaction may be to the death of his social life without textmessaging !!

the horror! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

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OK this is really really long...
but I keep hearing these words echoed when I come here....
they are from the
The Gospel of John
Scripture: John 5:1-17

In which Jesus asks a man IF HE WANTS TO BE HEALED..

I found this sermon on that gospel...and put some of it here....

it's a good question for ALL............

I cut and pasted..and took what served me with no malintent for the author ...
here is the complete link......

http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/3842.html

but I think Pep.......that the anwer to some your (and the collectives) frustration lays within whether people even really want help in the first place........

It was a good enough question for Jesus to ask.....






So here was a great crowd of people -- paralyzed, blind, lame, sick -- all waiting for the water to be troubled. Out of that crowd Jesus picked one lone man. He did not empty the five porches, healing everybody. He did not invite them all to come down so that he might lay hands on them; nothing of that sort. He went to only one man. The value of a story like this, and the reason it is in the gospels, is not only to reveal to us who Jesus was -- truth about the Lord himself -- but also to show us how God proposes to deal with human helplessness and weakness. Undoubtedly it was the helplessness of this man that drew Jesus to him.

We all can see ourselves, in a sense, helpless, weak, crippled and lame, lying at the pool of Bethesda this morning. We all need help. We all find ourselves paralyzed at times, unable to do the thing we want or ought to do. We find we are lame: we do not walk very well spiritually. This story is included in the gospels in order that we might understand how God proposes to help us through the ministry of Jesus.

John goes on to say what Jesus did:

When Jesus saw him and knew he had been lying there a long time, he said to him, "Do you want to be healed?" {John 5:6 RSV}

What a strange question to ask of a man who had been sick for 38 years! "Do you want to be healed? But Jesus never asked a foolish question in his life. Obviously it was important for this man to answer (at least to himself) the question, "Do I want to be healed?"

I know many people today who do not want to be healed. They do not want to receive divine help in their problems. They do not want to be helped out of their weakness. They love their weakness, their helplessness. They are always craving the attention of others through their helplessness. They sometimes flee assuming responsibility for their own lives. I have even seen people turn their backs on a way of deliverance they knew would work because they did not want to be healed.

I am sure if this man had answered Jesus along these lines our Lord would have gone his way and not done a thing for him. You cannot help somebody who does not want to be helped. One of the things that is true this morning, as our Lord moves among us, is that he will only ask this question of those who want to be healed. He will say nothing to those who do not.

Some, perhaps, may not have yet reached the place this man had reached. They are not helpless enough yet. They are not ready to give up on human efforts to solve their problems. They are not ready to admit they cannot make it on their own. They are still determined to get into the water when it is troubled. Jesus can do nothing for them.

If indeed there are some here who identify with this man, and the Lord is saying to you as we go through this account, "Do you want to be healed?" you have to answer that question. If you say, "Not yet," or, "No, I don't," then there is nothing more for you; you may as well turn off your mind and not listen any further.

But this man at the pool of Bethesda wants to be healed. Notice his answer:

The sick man answered him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is troubled, and while I am going another steps down before me." {John 5:7 RSV}

In other words, "Yes, I want to be healed, but I cannot. I've tried, I've done everything I know how. I want to get into that water, I want to be healed, but I lack the ability; I've no one to help me. I've given up. I have no hope."

Many people here this morning are like that. They have given up on their situation, refusing to believe there is any hope it can change. They see no way, from a human viewpoint, so they have resigned themselves to being weak, failing and faltering Christians for the rest of their lives.

Perhaps you do not see any hope for your marriage. You have tried to correct things. You have asked for help but nobody seems to care; it only gets worse. Many people are right where this man was, with a sense of helplessness and hopelessness of making any change.

That brings us to the critical moment of this story. What did Jesus say to a man who had lost all hope, a man who had given up on himself? Did he say, "Oh, come on, I'll help you get into the pool the next time the water is troubled"? No, he did not say that. He did not offer that kind of help. He could have, but he did not. Did he say, "Hang on. Keep coming here. Perhaps some day you'll make it in time. Some day it will all work out. Some day you'll be right at the edge of the pool when it's troubled and all you'll have to do is fall in"? No, he did not say that either. Did he say, "Let's at least make you comfortable. Let's get you a new mattress to lie on, put a few flowers around you and bring you two meals a day"? No, he did not. These are the suggestions of men, what we say to people. But Jesus does not say any of those things to people who want to hear from him.

What does Jesus say, then? Notice carefully his method: First, he asks an impossible thing; secondly, he removes all possibility of a relapse; and thirdly, he expects a continued success. All these are involved in the words,

"Rise, take up your pallet, and walk." And at once the man was healed, and he took up his pallet and walked. {John 5:8b-9a RSV}

Notice that the first thing Jesus says to do is what the man could not do, what he had tried for 38 years to do. On what basis does Jesus say these words to him? It is important to see that. Somehow this man senses what that basis was. Perhaps he was thinking, "If this man tells me to rise (and I cannot rise), it must mean that he intends to do something to make it possible." Thus his faith is transferred from his own efforts to Jesus: "He must do it. I can't." The man must also have reasoned somewhat along these lines, "If this man is going to help me then I have got to decide to do what he tells me to do."

That is a critical clue many miss when they are looking for help from God. There is always something God tells them to believe, and do, and act on. This is a word of action. Jesus does not say, "Try to build up faith in your mind. Try to fasten your thoughts on this or that." He tells them to do something: "Rise! Stand up!" Obviously it was Jesus' will that this man should do what he told him to do, and the moment the man's will agreed with the Lord's will the power was there. I do not know whether he felt anything or not. All I know is that strength came into his bones and into his muscles and he could stand. He knew he could stand, and he did.

Then what? The Lord did not merely say, "Rise," he said, "take up your pallet." Why did he say that? I like the way G. Campbell Morgan has put it, "In order to make no provision for a relapse." The man might have said to himself, "I'm healed, but I had better leave my bed here; I may need it tomorrow." If he had said that he would have been back in it the next day. But he did not. Jesus said, "Take up your bed. Get rid of it; don't leave it there."

In those words he is saying something very important to people who need to be healed: do not make any provision to go back on what you have done. Many people fail right here. Go home and pour out the alcohol! Go home and get rid of the drugs! Burn your bridges behind you. Say no to the friends who have been luring you on into evil. You will probably find that some of them will come back with you. Burn your bridges. Cut off any possibility of going back. Let somebody know the new stand you have taken so that he will help hold you to it. Burn your bridges, is what Jesus is saying. That is so important. Many a person has really been touched by God, delivered from some inner attitude, a bitter spirit or whatever, but then he has allowed the past to come back in again and he finds himself back where he was. Our Lord knows what he is talking about -- "take up your bed."


What Jesus said is true for us today: God is working in this twentieth century. He is working in international events; he is working in the pressures and problems that come to each one of us; he is working in the very circumstance in which you find yourself today. What you need to know is, where is God moving in your life, and then work with him. Be his instrument. Allow it to endure. The only thing that lasts, that gives significance to life -- and every one of us wants to be significant -- is to be in line with what God does. Only God's work will last. All that men do will fall away to nothing. Even though it be religious work it will be nothing -- trash, crap, burned by fire. What God does is what will last.

ARK^^

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Thank you Ark for sharing this gift with me ... and with anyone who cares to read ... well worth your effort...

I got much from this and will re-visit this post many times to get more and more ....

again ... mi amiga ... you are a lighthouse

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Hi Pep,

i have only read bits and pieces here but it certainly sounds like you are doing much better and i am glad to hear it!! sticking to this thread only for a bit sounds like an excellent plany.

Although i know you enjoyed LM's 2x4's just for the fun of it, BR's post seems right on the money to me, she is a extremely insightful person, sounds like K must be too.

good luck with controling YOUR emotional reaction when your son finds out about the phone. you have a great plan in place.

love ya pep, i'm glad you are here. not only do you have an excellent way with words when you post to others, your own actions are invaluable examples.

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"They are still determined to get into the water when it is troubled."

me .... past tense I pray

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ark. WOW. thanks for that!! so unbelieveable timely for me today.

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Ark

A wonderful post that speaks deeply and uncomfortably to me.

Thank you.


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bob, that post spoke very deeply and inspiring to me today. it's a msg of hope, isn't it?

not trying to change your reaction. i was just surprised by the word "uncomfortable" and was curious.

why uncomfortable?

maybe for me, especially today, i love the idea of burning all those bad bridges and leaving it all behind me and accepting the healing Jesus' offered.

the msg i got was one of how much can be accomplished by trusting in God.

maybe today, more than normal, i can so strongly say, yes to the question, do you want to be healed.

i'm off to IC (first time since before summer).

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FL I am always uncomfortable when I am faced with a reasonable justification that I must lean on God and deliberately remove my 'pallet' or my own strength safety net when leaving problems to God to resolve.

I prayed every day for my marriage for YEARS before Squids affair yet God let it be destroyed in the most brutal way imaginable. I struggle to see where Jesus was answering my prayers to strengthen my marriage when Squid was screwing OM and stealing our kids college money. And breaking my good ,kind heart.

Ark's post shows a way into the mind of God. How His thought process works. And it seems to indicate that CERTAINLY if you lean on God and remove your safety net He WILL NOT let you down.

But He does, FL. or at least chooses other than your perceved best interests. In my experience anyway.

Good Christians every day have their babies starve to death in their arms.

Get cancer in their teens

lose children

etc

So I read I must lean on God, when I see God pulling away his support from good Christians every day. Including me.

This is primarily why, sadly, I am a God fearing man, not a God LOVING one. Some faithful speak to our God as if speaking to " Abba, "Daddy", but I address God as if he is an all-powerful but capricious warrior ruler - the old testament God. Because thats the one I see manifested in my life and in this world. I see the action of the God of Job , not the God of the letters of Paul.

So I FEAR knowing that I must lean upon god AND remove my earthly safety net FL. Because I expect God to let me fall if He so chooses.

You asked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have a struggle with this, and I am formulating some questions for Foreverhers. I AM a Christian, but I need my experience to be supported by articles of faith, not denied by them.


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I don't believe for one second that God ever abandons us..
nor do I believe that he is the cause of good and bad things...

I believe children starve in their mothers arms...because the Christ inside of me is too stifled by my own selfishness and me being too much of a coward to commit to making a difference........that that blood is on my hands...not Gods.............

and I don't believe God gives people cancer or any other diseases....that those things just come with nature...........and he mourns deeper and harder for us than we can imagine...

and mostly I believe this life is a fleeting blip on the comparison of time with God.........

you say you see only the God of Job...yet you moved through this whole period of your marriage more Christ like than most...........
Bob your compassion transcended most peoples understanding and ability......you at the darkest moments still sought pity for your wife.........

I implore you Bob to seek out the loving Christ that I have only known............

ARK

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http://www.karlrhoads.com/trust.htm

when trusting God seems unreasonable <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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