Lately I have been finding it more and more difficult to support some of the waywards. I am also finding it difficult to encourage some of the betrayed to fight for their marriage.

~~~ especially in cases of EARLY marriage infidelity
and
~~~ especially in cases of REPEATED infidelity
and
~~~ especially in cases of LONG-TERM (years and years) infidelity

I need a pep talk .... and some of you owe me a pep talk. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (not really 'owe' .... but hey, I can feel 'entitlement' too sometimes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I am weary of whining waywards "but my neeeeeds weren't getting met" ..... I want to scream ---> THEN GO .... LEAVE YOUR KIDS AND YOUR HOME AND EVERYTHING YOU HAVE WORKED FOR AS A COUPLE AND GO HAVE A SELFISH ME ME ME INFUSION .... but just don't whine when you return to devestation !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Someone slap me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I need an attitude adjustment pronto ....

If I can only say that I'm glad you encouraged us. If you recall, Pep -

we had EARLY marriage infidelity

we had REPEATED infidelity

and we had infidelity on & off spanning 12 years


My pep talk to you is that you & the MBers here, our pastor, our friends Flukeboy & Flukette, Jennifer Chalmers, friends from church & others, individual counselors and co-workers were all USED BY GOD to bring us together. If I could send you a picture of my DD's during the A and separation vs. a picture of them smiling today, you would be glad you encouraged us. I'm tearing up to try to tell you how glad. It's been a lot of work, reflection, learning, talking, pain and healing, but I'm so glad we're together thru this life as a family again.

We had alot of the messes going on that seem insurmountable - some childhood abuse, alcoholism, porn addiction, spending, affairs, co-dependency, anger management, depression, PMS - but we are now what I consider a recovering stable FAMILY providing a happy home for DD's. The entire experience has taught me a lot and brought us both closer to God.

Don't give up Pep - with God all things are POSSIBLE!

Love, hugs, and a slap -
NTL

Hi Pep, no 2 x 4 from me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I just want to know if you saw the posts I've sent to you on Alphin and Bob's thread the other day. You didn't respond so I think you've probably missed it.

No Suzet* I did not see it .... I'll go look .... I have been REALLY tired of it all lately .... and I need an infusion of motivation

Of course, you know I am more than happy to fulfill your request for a 2X4. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

So, I don't know how much of a "Pep Talk" (get it?) this is, but here goes:

I know it gets frustrating, hearing the same things over and over. I'm not sure if you are referring to repeatedly telling NEW WS's or BS's the same thing you have told others, of if you are simply tired of repeating yourself to the SAME WS's or BS's, or both.

In the case of new WS's or BS's:

Sure, you feel redundant. Keep in mind that while this is not new information for you to say, it is new information for them to hear. The things you are telling them are the very same things that have sparked the catalyst for change in many of these new people.

For instance...Do you remember, early, early on...when Patriot and I first arrived, you encouraged him to quit his job? You pounded away at him until he understood what you were saying. I'm sure that wasn't the first time you said those things to anyone.

Remember when he quit his job? I don't even have to research this one, because I remember what you told him. You rewarded his understanding and progress with a "You 'da man!" and he felt proud. I felt proud. It was progress, and you sparked that by giving him information about something you knew.

That is just one example.

In the cases of continually repeating yourself to the same WS's and BS's, (myself included) some people are just slow learners. The ideas and principles you are trying to help them to understand are theirs for the taking, but these are LIFETIME patterns that they are trying to change. That can be very difficult and take a little longer to change. After all, it did take them a lifetime to get there.

People learn from repetitiveness. Those repeated statements are the things that stick in their heads.

They may question or challenge you, as I often do. I can't speak for others, but for myself, when I question or challenge something you are telling me it is because I am trying to learn it. Sometimes, initially, you are met with denial, but when I continue to question you, it is because I am trying to first understand it, and then learn it.

Again, some of us are very slow learners.

I'm sure that anyone would agree with me that you are a very valuable assett here, but I know that I would not want your advice or help if it were at your own expense.

This is where your own boundaries come in handy. How much of yourself and your time are you willing to give without feeling resentful? Only you can define that. Only you know what you where that line is. If a break is what you need, take it. If reminding that you are making a difference is what you need...I'm reminding. You make an enormous difference.

I don't know your real name, and you don't know mine. I don't know what you look like and you don't know what I look like, but you have made an enormous difference in my life, and many of the things you have said to me will be repeated in my head for a very long time to come, and it has made a difference for me. I've seen it make a difference for others here, too.

Ah, heck...I forgot the 2X4! Maybe some other time...

*SLAP*

I AM SENIOR DRILL INSTRUCTOR PATRIOT AND WELCOME TO THE MORNING PEP-TALK. YOU WILL BE MOTIVATED. YOU WILL BE DEDICATED. NOW HEAR THIS, LADIES. WE WILL NOT STAND FOR ANY 'I FEEL LIKE GIVING UP' CRAP FROM YOU. LIFE CONTAINS CHALLENGES, LADIES. YOU WILL FACE THESE CHALLENGES OR THEY WILL BEAT YOU. AND IF ANY CHALLENGES BEAT YOU THEN I WILL TEAR OFF YOUR HEAD AND **** DOWN YOUR NECK!!! NOW CHOKE YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

THAT IS ALL.

I understand Pep.... it's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

The floggings will continue until morale improves !!!

Love, Lady

so far .... Patriot wins the prize !!!

well.. maybe I yelled the most and gave the best '2X4' so far, but my joking around doesn't hold a candle to what my wife said. What a miracle she is becoming to me.

I don't think you need an attitude adjustment. I think a very healthy part of you is reminding you that it isn't really your job to fix strangers' problems for them. Changing from saying "You can do this!" to "Fly while there is still time!" is really not much of a change, though. You would still be investing in the outcome of other people's decisions, and I think doing that is exactly what's tiring you out.

What if you took a timeout from advice giving for a short term and just sit with that and see how it feels?

Hey! I resemble that remark! Pep, no 2x4 from me either. I am one who has benefitted greatly from your experience and patience. We all need a break now and then.
I often find myself impatient with newbies and have to sit back and let others help.

Pep,

I am BS but don't give up. You are been a source of encouragement to all that I have read. Keep up the good fight. I appreciate it greatly.

Your friend, WOL

I confess, I am low on wit and all of my motivational dialogue was depleted getting my munchkins to school on time with a smile....

but I cannot pass up the rare opportunity to give Pepperband a 2x4!! Woo hoo!

(Though Pep, you will have to accept the metric version of a 2 x 4, okay?)

Whack! Whack! Whack!

Now keep passing it on to all those in need....

P.S. And quit your whinning, you’re beginning to sound like a victim!! (heh heh, I KNEW that would get you!)

Seriously....
Since I've been comin' round... you historically "take breaks".

Although they can last at variable intervals, you've always take "a break"

You haven't taken a break in quite awhile now.

Even for the most seasoned, it can weigh heavily on your emotions, and although every situation is different, there is that part of us that knows the BTDT thing.

Take a break Pep...even for just a day.

wow, I have to agree - I like Patriots! LOL!

Hey, all I can say is that you were a motivator for me when my head was as far up my **** as it could be! And look at us now, 5 years later. My H reads the love note I wrote to him on our 11th anniversary every morning and says how lucky he is. How lucky HE is! I'M BY FAR the lucky one! And without a doubt we couldn't have done it without you. You gave FIRM advice - but also encouragement when my head tried to peek out even a little.

You know - it's ok to take a break, too. I need to do that in patches - to get my head out of all the muck for a while. You're not alone in this, you know - you're part of a team. Sometimes you have to let the rest of the team carry you for a while, so that you can get back in there and fight the good fight!

And besides - if you want a good wacking...just go jogging bra-less. You'll have yourself a couple of black eyes in no time. ;-)

Sorry - h4f just beat out Pat
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I KNEW I shouldn't have sent h4F photos of me in my pink sweater .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> jealous aren't ya!

perfect

I am tired of my own complaints already

hee hee hee - hey lady, I'm doing pretty well myself in that area (although I PRAY I look as good as you do when I'm YOUR AGE). I'm going to send you a pic of me in MY fav shirt (pink floyd). And if manage to get preggers!! HOOOO BABY, I'll have to get a permit to carry around those missles! LOL!!

NTL .... thanks for the *slap*

Froz .... don't miss your chance to lay one on me ...

Lady Sheep .... flog-on

Elspeth .... I think you are *right-on* ... investing in other people's outcome = bad attitude

FF ... hit me

WOL ... thank you !

Jersey .... I do need a break ... thanks!

pep, again, i feel the lose for how to express what i am wanting to express.

i, like NotTooLost, am extremely grateful for you.

FL2 ... you are welcome ...

but really listen to THIS

I am NOT 'fishing' for compliments ... I need help on changing my attitude ... I can feel myself slipping into nagging and cynicism

Pep, if you're still around...

What they said and also ~

...have a think about what you're feeling

...about marriages

...and which marriages are worth saving

...given the effort required from both parties.


Mabye your triage criteria have shifted? (If that's the right term).

TA

Maybe it's menopause <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Yeah TA ... I am pretty certain I feel a shift as you described.... is that a reasonable thing?

not so sure

Just Maybe...

You're human...

Just Maybe...

You're tired...

HELPING CAN HURT..and leave YOU DEPLETED....

I get the sense that you GIVE, GIVE, GIVE all day and then GIVE here....

Maybe there's some way that we can HELP YOU more often...

I'm concerned that you don't want to take the complements and gratitude..

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT? Maybe that's what you are needing..to be filled....

YOU MAY BE STARTING TO RUN ON EMPTY.....

Not a 2x4..just my thoughts about this...

7 years past that crap!

pep, i KNOW you are not fishing for compliments. i was not aiming at complimenting you, i was aiming to show you how much impact you have had on some of us. but i guess the point is you probably do know this.

so what you are asking for is help to change your attitude which seems to be slipping into nagging and cynicism...

ok, i would absolutely love to help you here, so i am trying to think about what i have learned, about behaviours i choose at times. behaviours i choose and yet i don't really like. for you right now that is nagging and cynicism.

so there are two things i feel i have learned that might help:

1. i have learned that i need to understand and deal with the feelings i am having at the time that i am tempted to act in a way that i really don't like.

2. i need to scurtinize my logic. is the behavior i am choosing the right way to go about what i want to accomplish.

ok.... i s*ck at this!!!

hey, that's a good question!!!

yeah Pep, whats wrong with getting compliments??

(i just know she is going to come back with a good explanation, d*mn lady is just too smart!)

Finally,

I was going to ask the same question again....

SO WHAT IF YOU WERE FISHING FOR COMPLEMENTS?

How come it's not OK for you to NEED AND WANT COMPLEMENTS?

here is another question for ya...

why do you post here so much? what are you wanting to accomplish? i often wonder about this. same questions applies to JL too!!!

There is nothing wrong with offering and receiving compliments ... that is extrinsic good stuff and appreciated.

But my personal 'mojo' is not from all ya'all.... it is intrinsic motivation that I feel slipping....

just writing 'motivation' I recognize that is false ... it is not my motivation that's bothering me ... something else ... more of a values re-adjusting ... I donno

hard to ask for help when I can't properly state my problem ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I am probably just thinking out loud.... old people do that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

GOOD question .... I will ponder

Pep,
Not sure I can say anything that hasn't already been said here other than I look for your posts ever since I found this board. When us newbies are in the state of denial, panic and devastation as we all are when we arrive, its people like you who give us the support and guidance we need. Yes, there are more and more of us every day and it can become depresssing and downright discouraging. Just keep in mind that everyone who has read what you have said has taken something positive away with them. Even the 2x4's you hand out are needed and in most cases appreciated.

Not too many thank yous are handed out here and you for one should get them in bunches. Take your breaks when you need them, but come back with your wisdom and wit and help all that you can. I for one will continue to look for your signature regularly!

dukhuntr

Whether it's 'reasonable' or not, it's there, so start with that. Oh, you have... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

If your triage boundary has shifted, is that because

(1) you have less resources to handle the sick and injured
or
(2) your opinion on what constitutes 'saveable' has changed
or
(3)you have greater doubts about the quality of life of survivors.

(1) just means you're tired, you've got compassion fatigue, you need resources for your own stuff. You have less energy to give to people, so you want them to get to the destination quicker. ==> take a break, and see if the impatience goes, and then look at...

(2) and (3)...and well, I'm assuming you're getting older like the rest of us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> New data comes in all the time.Changing your views because of new information is acceptable.

Has anything changed in your belief system about whether marriages are worth saving? And if so, what made it change?

TA

I dont mean to fuel Pepperbands fire, but there is a lot of sad and sick stuff that goes around on this board...and I can see how it could make a person cynnical.

But I would also hate to think of what would become of the board, if there were not some sensible, straight-forward people, like Ms. Pepperband, to chime in and put the perspectives and standards where they need to be.

Maybe you are feeling more pepper than pep--Pep, but you have had a visible impact and made a positive difference in the lives of real human beings...in't that enough to ease those cynnical feelings?

Pep - as special as you are - you're still a people! People get tired - people get burned out - people DO lose their motivation.

It's no different than keeping the motivation to remain married. I LOVE my H - I LOVE being a family and a couple and married and all that stuff...but sometimes...SOMETIMES it just feels like it would be EASIER to be FREE and SINGLE and ALONE. But just for a little while. I re-motivate myself by reminding myself just WHY it is the whole things worth the occasional hassle.

So the question about why is a good one. Because if you don't know, it would be pretty hard to have that talk with yourself!

I've seen you in person and you are not old. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I can agree with the shift in attitude. How many are willing to settle for mediocrity to save their M? I include myself in that BTW. Where someone like you or Susan or BR have come in for me has been calling me on the carpet for settling and encouraging me to grow personally.

Here...whack with a nerf 2x4 since you asked. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

(((Pep)))

You were the first person to post to me when I arrived here 18 months ago.

I was in bad shape. As bad as any in the history of this site, I think. I couldn't think straight at all. I barely made it from hour to hour.

You posted only one sentance to my pages long sob story, "Why do you not divorce her?"

You made me start thinking again. You got me through that whole day. You helped get me through this year and a half, in part. And you still make me think.

With prayers, and thanks,


PS: I don't read any WS nor most FWS any more.

jeeze ... this gave me NICU flashbacks

I confess also ... I have a migraine today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Woman, get yourself to bed with a Zomig! (Migraine pill, not handsome Balkan).

When I have a migraine, I'd welcome an asteroid destroying the earth. All I ask from marriage is an empty bed.

TA

Pep,

You have given me many a 2x4s ... the things I needed to hear but often didn't want to.

I don't have any 2x4s to offer you, but I can tell you that you have been a constant source of encouragement to me. I can only hope that I will be able to one day come to you from the other side of my mess and show you that another M was saved partly because of your words of wisdom.

see, sorry pep, but we all want to compliment you instead of 2x4 ya. NA NA NA NA

this is our 2x4...

STOP WHINING PEP YOU ARE MAKING A HUGE DIFFERENCE TO SO MANY OF US.

now, if that is not what you want to be accomplishing, stop posting!!!

I've noticed a change in my mindset as I have gotten older and experienced many life changes and tragedies...deaths of my loved ones, empty nest, the A....

Plus, "the world ain't what it used to be".. Really... Have you seen that TV commercial about poor customer service...What ever happened to "MAYBERRY as in the ANDY GRIFFIN SHOW?...

There's increased social acceptability of immorality and violence....

I guess I'm validating your feelings and sharing that YOU ARE NOT ALONE in this....

It's interesting. I'm less intolerant in the REAL WORLD than I am on this forum... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Can't put on those "rose-colored glasses" anymore....

I especially feel NEGATIVE AND INTOLERANT when I am physically ill...

I think you'll feel alot better tomorrow....

Hey Pep. No 2x4 from me! When I came on over a year ago, you made me think past the denial and the shock and the pain.

YOU and the other veteran posters got me through the most difficult parts of this disaster. WHen I was ready to blow things and people up, you helped me to act rationally. You encouraged me when I needed it and you supported me when I was lower than a slug. And smacked me when I needed it.

So forget it! It's unanimous. No 2x4 for you, Missy!

OTH, I can so relate. I had to stop posting and even reading. I do not have the patience for the yabuts. You know the "Ya, but ......."

My style is way more 2x4 aka SOUR Male approach. Like "WTH? You have no H or W. YOu have a WS and you are SCARED to rock the boat? Has this approach worked for you? NO? Then do something different!!!! STOP the excuses and LISTEN to the people that are giving you the benefit of their experience and DO something." Not very PC. So I zip my lip.

I understand the stuck mode. But when a loving 2x4 is given repeatedly and all you get is the YABUTS, can't deal.

You have my admiration for STILL trying to help these folks.

So there! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

poor pep, she can't get a 2x4 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Our DEAR Ms. Pepperband,

You are the ROCK of MB. And you also ROCK bigtime. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

TA hit it just right, ""you've got compassion fatigue"". That plus a migrane would make anyone a little (or alot) down.

Coming here to MB day after day, and reading about all the pain can wear anyone down. Hearing the same stories and the same situations over and over from every Newbie that comes on board seriously is not healthy in the long run.

Concentrate on the happy outcomes, WHICH YOU HAVE HELPED PRODUCE!!

Have a very relaxing weekend. Go to the beach, listen to the waves. Maybe take a break from the halls of MB for a while.

Maybe I should follow my own advise. I tend to get a little down coming here, plus I need to get some work done!!

You will feel better tomorrow!!

You are a treasured ROCK here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

k

Pep,

I think both of us were asked an interesting question. I am not sure I know the answer and am too busy today to really comtemplate it. However, I think what you are feeling is the ebb and flow of this site.

Sometimes there are posters here that are "fun" to talk to and it seems like a community. Sometimes there is a "wave" of new posters and when you post they see what you are saying and the reward is that gradually you see them improve themselves, and their marriages are saved or they decide NOT to save it. Sometimes the prepondence of new posters DO NOT get it, and one keeps repeating the same thing over and over. They wear you out.

Then there is life going on as well and that can drain you.

In short, I think what you are feeling is the normal ebb and flow of this site, your life, and your energy level. Hang on girl it will come back. Someone will post that just gets to you emotionally, intellectually, and personally and your usual "pithy" comments will come roaring back, the 2x4 will have a new feel to it, AND you will get results. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Life will be good again Pep.

So hang on this site needs you, when you are ready to be needed.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Pep,

Sounds to me you just need a break. When you start missing us, come back!

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{PEP}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{PEP}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{PEP}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{PEP}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{PEP}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I am going for the 'opposite' theory!

Pep... here's my take. When I was a "newbie" I was SO honored you used one of my quotes as a tag line to your posts for month or so...remember "words to a WS are as effective as throwing cotton balls at a crocodile"? While many of your posts were standard MB fare, many others were "outside of the box" thinking, which were very thought provoking. Not only for the recipient of the post, but for many others lurking around the site.

While I've never posted nearly as much as you, I can say that it's because of several different reasons. Many new arrivals don't even bother to read "Surviving an Affair", and as a result, "don't get" the advice they receive. Other new arrivals will post a couple of times and vanish. Very frustrating when you take the time to post to them. Sometimes I think the new arrivals are overwhelmed by our total famaliarity with the MB program, and post to them in terms they don't understand, almost like a foreign language is being spoken.

Other new arrivals dwell so much on the drama, they read advice and don't comprehend it, don't even attempt to put it in to action, and then complain about how nothing is changing. Melody just started a thread recently about trying to help people who would rather have something to provide drama in their lives, without taking steps to change that pattern.

Still others seem to need advice on every minute step of the process, and can't seem to get the bigger picture, or proceed with gentle pushes along the way. It's more like dragging them through the steps to over come infidelity.

Everyone here has been touched by infidelity, and many are of the BS side of things. Reading some of the new arrival's posts can touch nerves and trigger some of us who have been here long enough to be in recovery at one stage or another. Sometimes that can sour a day.

Most everyone who posts here is in need of something. Some new arrivals, desparate for help, some vets attempting to give something back. But there is another category of folks who have been here 2, 3, 4,5 years who have "dedicated" themselves to helping others, for whatever reason, that goes further than that. People so caring and concerned the time spent here is more of a passion than a leisure time activity. Those people are the heart and soul of these forums. You are one of a number of these people. For that you should be extremely proud, for the number of people you touch are probably in the thousands.

But my point is...we that post care about the people we post to. The topic of infidelity touches people deeply, and we post to others in hopes of speeding along their process, with as few mistakes and as little pain as possible. In doing so, we become emotionally invested in each situation to which we choose to respond. And it is draining. As often as not, we do not even know how many situations even play out. People just fall away, and never return.

I think it is cyclical, at least it is for me. I have to regulate how involved I am in posting to others, or it becomes a whirlpool from which escape is difficult. But when you know your advice is helpful to someone, and it casts a positive influence on their situation, it fill our own EN in some way, and that too, can be addictive.

So no 2x4 from me, but perhaps a window to see why you might feel less than "gratified" in posting of late. Perhaps you have bumped a boundary, and this is your "sign". Perhaps your 15 hours per week with MB is taking away from your 15 hours with those more important in your life.

But your advice to many a BS here is much more like cannon balls of wisdom, and not at all like throwing cotton balls at a crocodile.

What is best for you is for you to decide. It is up to the rest of us to respect that decision.

Best wishes,
SD

If you haven't already read it, you might enjoy Harriet Lerner's book, Fear and Other Uninvited Guests. In Chapter 5, there is a section called "Doing Too Much, Doing Too Little" in which she talks about how people can respond to anxiety by either overfunctioning or underfunctioning in relationships. It's easy to see the problems with people who underfunction under stress. These are the folks who in Lerner's words, "become less competent under stress, thus inviting others to take over". They're the folks who draw attention on this board for seeming "stuck", being "addicted to drama", playing "yes, but", etc. However, Lerner considers overfunctioning to be just as dysfunctional a way of coping with anxiety. Here's her description of people who overfunction:


I'm not saying that this is a description of you, Pep (although I can sure relate to the first four items), I'm just saying that what you see as a bad attitude may be anxiety over something in your own life at the moment that is pushing you from the centered wise woman who shares her thoughts with others in an attempt to help to the off-balanced overfunctioner side that many of us have to our personalities. The fact that this worries you and that you are reaching out to others (sharing your vulnerability in the process) is a good sign that you are aware of the difference and working to keep your balance.

Hi Pep,
What't the progression rate been like for this?

When did you first notice it? Is it getting noticeably worse?

Has it happened before, and if so, what did you do then?

SS

NO PROBLEM.........YOU ASK, YOU SHALL RECEIVE !!!

LemonMan ------> 2 x 4 ' ----------> Peppperband (BLAM !)

Sour <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep -

No 2 x 4 from me......Just here to say I'm thinking about you & wonder if everyone is right about taking a short break......

We all do need you here so badly & we need the Pep who is in good functioning mode and healthy here! so if you are feeling a bit done, take a day or two away & come back rejuvenated!!!

Kimberly

JL said:


Recently I was reading some of BobPure's stuff ... where he posts his story and all the links that were important to his journey

... and one of his links was about some of his really difficult Plan A doings when his WW was being snakey-mean

... and I read some of my ~own~ posts on that thread and I was really rather shocked at how GOOD they were (false modesty aside)

... it was weird for me ... I was reading something ~I had written~ that I don't know if I could pull off right now

...I was writing to Bob as if I were loving his wife myself ... that's how hot the fire in my belly was ... and I remembered feeling love for her ... a non-poster ... and that's the well from where I drew my power, my words, my emotional fuel ... I was in love with their marriage recovery

.... probably this is just a dry spell, an ebb like you say.

FL asked why I post so much ...

I know why I used to post ... my love for ~the people~ who struggle

I would be lifted up emotionally witnessing fellow humans pull themselves up and make a go of life despite humungous pain and affair suckage

So I posted a lot because stories are inspiring

... and I suppose I like to pontificate and blah blah blah myownself

..... it is the human drama in all of us ... the poetry of recovery

.... when I think about the world-wide-web, and all our little souls crashing into each other with cyber-words ... it seems a bit of a miracle ... like a huge town meeting

I like it. That's why I post so much <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i figure that had to be in the equation for you. that is exactly why i thought it would be helpful to you to tell you how much i appreciate all the help you have given me.

i hope your migrane is already gone or goes away quickly.

I'm glad you are my friend, Pep, you are awesome. And I also know the weary feeling you are experiencing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok Pep, now sit straight up in that chair... well slump down into a comfortable position ('cuz I'm short and need to reach that noggin of yours - LOL!!). Comfy? Ok, now turn your head to the left if u r right handed or the right if u r left handed and stay reeeeaaaal still.

Here it comes!!!!!...... {{{{{HUGZ & kissy smack <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> }}}}.

No 2x4 whacking from me.... I have been feeling that for quite awhile. I cut back on my posting cuz it seems too often my posts kill the thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

It comes in waves...... I am not looking for sympathy but taking a break is not a bad idea. This board has enough tenure (sp??) on it to survive.

I miss Sheryl (NB), WAT, Cali, Mthrbaard (sp???), MB fairy from Texas.... Topie25, Terrified, Alberta, Rick37, and all the others that used post to me waaaay back when my heart was too big and my skull was too thick. The boobs were small so you can imagine what I looked like. LOL!!! Just kidding. I still miess 'em. There are a few from back then that post but not many. Knewjie, Faith1, Peachy, Redhat, JL, etc. are a few that still post here who knew me when I was one crazed BS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

No whacks from me. Just a few loving smacks (non narcotic kind). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

me too, plus I am growing and learning! I love giving back to which I suspect is some of your motivation Ms. Pepper <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep


I have noticed more indignation from you lately when posters take offense at you, or disagree voicefully. Now you never slap them down, but you DO drown them in reasonable debate until they give in, agree with you, get nice and usually apologise. Thats a pretty unusually combative style for you Pep. You've shaken wobbly BS and entitled WS like a terrier with a rat in the past, but not just folks who disagree with something you say, or accuse you of a certain engagement style. Thats a symptom of frustration on the boards IMO.

In my own small way I have noticed that I cannot now add value to every situation. For a while there I was convinced that EVERY NEW BS needed the "magical benefit" of my words, even if most of my words were just rehashes of stuff said better by Ark, Mel, You or WAT. I guess I was eager to pass on a blessings received.

Some I helped, for sure, but many I didn't. When I started offering "advice" fom outside my own particular experience, I decided it was time to back off. In my case, I now believe my maniacal focus on helping others was a way to bring other folks to where I had gotten, so I need not focus on the fact I had no freakin' idea what to do next. Now I * had * a 'recovery, where the he[i][/i]ll am I supposed to drive it ? I know why the wind went out of my MB sails.

That is not the case with you, Pep. Now all of us are a work in progress in some way, but you're pretty well self actualised.

So why are you losing your muse ?

Maybe your work here is done for a while ?

You posts to me (us) are a case in point. Many of them weren't GOOD they were INSPIRED. Words than stuck into my heart like darts from an anonymous friend thousands of miles away. You wrote as if you had a love for Squid and myself because you so obviously DID. That note you wrote to Squid very recently touched her into silence.

You obviously had a BURDEN for us. Its OK not to have a burden for everyone. Maybe you weren't sent for everyone. Only Jesus was sent to save everyone. Perhaps you have a burden to help save SOME marriages; SOME self respect ?

Despite the sometimes inspired work you do here, you are not an MC. Your best contributions arrive when you have a burden to help. And it can be disappointing - there haven't been many ripping successes here lately.

Pep, I don't want to sound glib but you owe us NOTHING. Pray and ask God to show you the burden and ministry He has planned for you.

BTW thanks. A LOT. {{{{pep}}}}

Pep,

I don't post much but I read here LOTS. You should know that your wisdom isn't lost when the person you are posting to just doesn't get it. There are probably hundreds of lurkers who, like me, read your post and go "hmmmmmmmm, that Pep sure has her stuff together. Why didn't I think of that?"

When you think you are being nagging and less than effective please know that I'm over here thinking that I sure would like to be like Pep when I grow up. (So says Eagle who has begun physically shrinking in her middle age but is just starting her emotional growth spurt.)

eaglesoar,

That is an excellent point.

Pep, hope your head is better today.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Eaglesoar is SO right here. I know I often read your posts and think think 'aaaah...that's right...what a great way to see it.' And done so economically and crisply, yet with underlying kindness.

If the kindness seems harder to get to at the moment, maybe there's something in your life that's getting your defences up?

TA

I can understand how you'd be tired of helping all of us poor smucks. It's a huge energy drain. WS are so predictable in their cycles. I suppose we BS are too. We ask so much.

I applaud you, Pep and the folks who are the pillars and supports of this board. People like Melodylane, Mimi, Orchid, even the dreaded Lemonman. You wade in the muck of our lives but still manage to pluck gold nuggets from the goo and hand them to us. You show us how to drain the swamp or divert the waters. Sometimes, you've just taught us to plant rice so something productive comes from the mire. We've learned that every day the sun still sets and if we look up, we just might see something beautiful.

While infidelity patterns are the same, not everybody comes into it with the same tools, dedication or relationship. There are good marriages that stumble over an affair. Those probably have the best chance of recovery. There are relationships with clearly defined problems that both parties want to work on. And there are those marriages that have had "warning" lights blinking for sometime. Those are probably the ones that make you want to slap your head and yell "get out while you can!" Pep, I'm sure you've seen them all and can guess the progress. Since generally, we only see one side, we can't know how relationships will turn out. I think you try so hard to help us all.

Thanks for being here. You deserve a little MB vacation. Take Mr. Pep to a lovely romantic place. Good things should come your way. YOu must have a big Karma bank.

Ah, Grapegirl makes an excellent observation. Perhaps, Pep, all your experience has made your predictive powers acute. Perhaps you can instinctively feel where it just ain't gonna work? But you can't intellectually justify it?

TA

I think TA just nailed it!

Ya know Pep, what Eaglesoar said is so true. I remember reading on the pg/c board your posts and finally had the courage to ask you to help me grow. Thank you. Hope you feel better today.

so far, this has turned out to be very useful for me. thanks all.

I was also becoming aware that because we are soooooo recovered, I have a rather dim memory of all the pain from this distance in time .... and although this is GREAT for me/us ... it does make me a less effective infidelity mentor in some ways

Boloney! You will never be less effective in helping these folks here Pep.It's like riding a bicycle really.Once you know deep in your heart,mind and soul the kind of support that is needed and appropriate from years of experience and knowledge,you can dish it out until the end of time.Just like we do in Nursing.

You will always be appreciated around here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

O

{{Pep}}

I appreciate all the advice you and others have given since I arrived. To be able to offer advice, listen to b/s or w/s objections to exposing or doing something else that takes risks, and to be able to overcome their objections, finally succeeding in convincing us b/s's what needs to be done, is in itself a miracle. Us b/s and w/s are in unchartered waters, unable to navigate our vessel, and here you come along and guide us through the scary turbulent waters, to eventually our destination of the beginning of marriage restoration. Job well done, Pep.
Even ministers need to take breaks and recieve restorative measures to minister to god's children.

IMHO, what this journey has done is make you and others less tolerant of an A. We think we are never tolerant but when faced with reality, many of us are more than we want t/b. Life does that.....can't kick ourselves to hard because most of us already feel like we are in the gutter.

I know I am less tolerant. I post most of the same stuff over and over. You'd think I'd copy and save my list of 'items' a newbie should consider. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hugz Pep. U R not a synic. Just a caring person who knows the well traveled road to recovery.

take care,
L.

Orchid said:
My ~husband~ is the one who currently is waaaaaay less tolerant of this behavior. So fascinating.

To SS


hi you



I'd say slow .... not crawling, but slow.


prolly about a month I guess



I think it shows ... can't you tell?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Yes, but it was due to an entirely different problem on an entirely different board with a VERY different culture of thinking and relating

What did I do ? .... I quit the board and came back here .... it was a place where ONE person was pretty much IN CHARGE of everything .... and that is scary to me.

I, for one, never had given much thought to how much damage an affair causes, to both the WS and the BS. This has been an enlightening journey. An education of a lifetime. If only there were an injection for newlyweds, just to give them a "taste" of the devastation...

SD

An injection for newlyweds. Great idea! My H even said in our MC once that our premarital classes never really prepared us for M.

I think all newlyweds should be required to read some MB books before getting married.

Pep,

Hi. I guess I'll say, in the small, quiet voice. No 2x4s, but I've noticed the changes. Or thought I have... I think it's been slightly more than a month. Intolerant is exactly the word I used to describe the changes I noticed particularly in your contributions on MB. Interestingly enough, that hasn't applied to your interactions with me personally. But I've still noticed elsewhere.

When I arrived on the board you were straightforward, trustworthy, pithy and wise. Even a brief knock on the noggin was a sign that the sit. wasn't hopeless. Pep, you did not waste your time with that which seemed hopeless. My respect for you was earned. It was great knowing someone so lovely was out there - even from afar you calmed, you cared. Or you seemed to.

Now I avoid your posts more often than not. You've developed some new styles. Seemingly confused at first and then later, self-aggrandizing. It has seemed to me one of your new hooks is to invite contemplation by acting as if you don't know... so that you can "surprise" us all with knowing all of the answers later.

In the end, it comes off as if you're playing at being the star among the mediocrities. Instead of challenging, your words have seemed dismissive and -- phony. Phony is not a word I EVER would have strung in a sentence with Pep even three months ago. The tough love shell doesn't seem very sincere any more.

Honestly, I've wondered if you are having problems you're not sharing. You just don't seem to care much about much - not BS or WS. Not sad news, not happy news. The sad part for me is that I avoid your posts because I expect them to be a waste of my time. Occasionally, I read your posts because I hope to see something different. I saw something different today.

I've been worried for you. Guess I wasn't worried enough because I didn't say anything. But I have been worried. I hope you will forgive my rotten "passing by" without saying until now. I should have said something about what seemed unsettling and un-Pep-ish weeks ago. Radical honesty right? I'm still working on that every day. Can you forgive me for not saying any of this 'til you asked?

And are you OK?

Sally

...

Sally

Has Pep hurt you in some way ?

Take a break per Mr. Pure's input? Discard carapace and post as newly exposed Pep? Lovingly buff tough shell with turtle wax until outer shines again? Dunno. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

{{{Pep}}}
Sal

...

You know, Sally, I can honestly say that your hateful, dismissive post to Pep says much more about you than it does her. Anyone can read her posts and know they are anything but "phony" or "mediocre." I had the same thought as Bob did when I read your words: Pep must have pissed her off, because this is pure spite talking.

What I hear in your post is some old resentments thinly disguised as constructive criticism. And I am being generous with that characterization, because no one in their right mind would consider it to be constructive to tell someone they are "phony" or "mediocre." Your characterizations of Pep are truly bizarre.

That is pure spite, Sally. You can dress up a pig, but it still goes oink and still stinks to high heaven. This stinks, Sally, and anyone who reads your post can smell it.

I think Pepperbands original request on this thread was-----





SUPPORT!!!!

I think that was what you wrote pep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes I noticed it in some posts but really nothing too bad so I wouldn't be too upset about it. Of course if I thought what you said was [email]cr@p[/email] I can always ignore it can't I?
I mean I can only be hurt if I allow myself to be.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Look I'm a FWW and I get that way too!! I should be far more understanding, far more helpful, but at times I'm unable to. Why would it surprise me to find a someone else here has similar doubts and feelings?

Sometimes THAT is exactly what a poster needs to snap out of a dangerous and self defeating attitude.

In the end I feel we have only one thing we can try to do consistently ..DO NO FURTHER HARM ... but that is not slways being nice or not being blunt.... I needed it and maybe will again,,who knows....... maybe you will.

Overall I think you do FAR more good than any short term pain. In todays world pep thats not bad! And if something said by someone on this thread can help you then thats great!

I'm going back to breastfeeding this giant, can you believe he's STILL hungry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AW

Pep, Mel etc you have been here for a long time, unlike me. In you experience have the boards ever been as short of success as they are just recently ?

Its enough to make a person wonder if the board is under attack ?

Just wanted to say I thought Sally's words were harsh this morning. From time to time we have all been peeved by various posters but I believe Pep is a bit of an institution here. Like her or leave her. Personally, I can't imagine MB without her (same goes for Orchid, BobP, Mel L, Anyname and, of course, me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Pep,

I need your input, your advice, your encouragement.

I value your honesty and your criticizm.

I don't know if I will be able to save my marriage or not. I am in a dark Plan B mode. I continue to work on myself. There are no signs that the frog prince will cut off contact to skunky poo, take responibility for his infidelity instead of blaming me, and commit to rebuilding a new and better marriage with me.

Can you help me work on me?

I believe Pep is a bit of an institution here.

Hi TT !

If I know pep AT ALL, I think you could not have written anything more provocative to her than this ! I think its EXACTLY what will spark her internal debate with some passion. Pep won't want to be an institution. " The man".

Whatever - I'm trying to be nice. "The lady"

TT I know you're being nice ! But you're right - Pep has become a board institution : an icon, whose presence may be becoming secondary to her insight.

Your post summed that up perfectly TT, really !

BTW by " the man " I mean " the enemy of hippies", a representative of authority and 'institutions'.

'scuse me I'll brim full of it this morning ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Careful about being an enemy of hippies. If I remember rightly, wasn't Pep a wild sixties chick or have I confused her with someone else?

Yes, thats the guts of my theory. Rubbish eh ?. I had a hard night forgive me !

Awwwhh...Pep, I recall a post a few years back when someone made the statement that I thought eventhing I posted was suppose t/b taken as 100% correct.

Note: I never said anything nears that but some posters would write stuff about me and others like: Listen to 'so and so', she/he is an oldie and knows there stuff.

Ok, well that's a nice compliment but none of us ever said we were wise posters. Just the opposite in fact. But the fact that a some of us are now giving 'hind sight' support, it may seem like we know more but never 'better than others'.

My learning curve still goes on. I don't get offended even by those who challenge my posts. I take it all in stride. Why? Because each are rightly entitled to their own opinions and this is what this place is, a place to post our opinions.

So when someone follows our suggestions and it goes awry, whose fault is it? Hm..... something to think about. In reality it is the fault or benefit of those who choose to use it. But as posters we s/b careful. I try t/b cautious (guess that's why my posts are usually soooo long). LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Therefore, when someone tells me off in a thread, I usually stop posting. Life does go on. I recall one poster telling me off a few years ago because while she was jumping for joy that she was in recovery, I sent a post asking her t/b cautious. She got angry and said I didn't know what I was talking about. So I stopped posting, within 2 weeks her WS left to go back to the OW and she was in tears. Because of her stance, I had stopped posting to her. I was sad to see her go into pain again because she had put her recovery at the wrong level. The fall for her was hard. Am I mad that she didn't listen to my advice? No. That was her choice and the pain was also hers. Am I sad she did heed it, even a little bit? Yes. But not for my benefit, for hers.

So my dear Pep, in reality the best thing is to help where you can and for those who don't want your help, don't. It's their choice to read and heed.

Hugz,
L.

Bob, I haven't ever seen it like this. Certainly it goes through phases, but this has been a long phase.

Pep:

To me you have expressed BOLD LOVE for years ever since I've come to know you. You have shown TENDERNESS towards me and have exuded STRENGTH to say to me things that I did not want to hear. You warned me of my FWH's continued contact and had a real hand in stopping an additional FALSE RECOVERY. You have even shown the TENDERNESS AND STRENGTH to encourage me more recently to work towards forgiving and showing mercy towards the FOW....

Pep, you have done this for me...made this major difference in my life and I am a STRANGER to you...

I am making a presumption here but if you do this for us folks here on the forum and also are exuding such STRENGTH in your real life this must be a HUGE BURDEN for you....

When I read the piece in BOLD LOVE about STRENGTH LACED WITH TENDERNESS, I thought of you.....

Hi there,

To be effective doing "good" here, you have to not be overly emotionally involved in the amount of drama that happens daily on this site. You need to care, but you also need to compartmentalize this as well---otherwise you will burn out.

I'm not always thrilled with your style either---especially when you lack compassion for all the parties involved. I believe that you're beginning to get sick of the "involvement" that it takes, and the time that it takes to truly get over the issues that are played out here. You'd like to shortcut it, and save BS's the pain. And when you see failures, you begin to question the methodologies involved---and you feel that you'd like to short-circuit the path to "recovery" by getting those in "hopeless" situations to divorce quicker.

Having been here much longer than you, I'd encourage you to believe that these methods are good for marriage, that you can make a difference, but that sometimes you need to let the process work and let both the BS and WS experience the pain. Although I haven't really been a daily participant here for some time (years), I was always amazed to find out how much good people can do here. I have emails from dozens of people who's marriages I helped "save". Those numbers total in the hundreds when you look at the posts thanking people (think BobP) for a restored marriage. When I used to chitchat with Steve H., he would also tell me stories of people "we" (the community here) had help who never showed up on the boards, but counseled with him. There are some couples who achieve success in a straightforward ways. There are others who never appear to get it---and then come back years later and say---"hey, I finally got it---thanks". If you've helped to save one marriage---you've made such a difference in this world. I'm sure that you've done that many times over.

When you find yourself getting short and impatient with people, it's usually a sign that you're not successfully compartmentalizing your efforts here with the rest of your life. Take a break. There are some good books with regard to "how to counsel" effectively---you might want to look into that. And professional counselors, therapists, and coaches often make time to go to therapy themselves---it's not easy work.

Be good to yourself.

Nope. Not at all. In fact, I specifically DID say

Pep has only been a source of support when she has posted directly in response to my own threads. Believe I said -
Pep, you've always been a positive poster when writing directly to me and I've always tried to express my appreciation for that. I still appreciate it! Whether or not we agreed or disagreed on all points, you always seemed to be careful and considerate of my feelings.

Folks, I posted to pep not to slam but to continue what I thought she was seeking - a self-examining, externally-examining dialog - as I hope she would do with me. Pep wrote earlier wrote:
Of course, I read other threads to gain insight and consider what other people are doing that is and isn't successful for them and in some of those posts, and some of Pep's recent thoughts to consider kinds of posts, I've thought I've noticed a less healthy trend.

Granted some things like tone! are still lost in the writing medium. I tried to impart my good intention and quiet demeanor. I tried to be as careful and considerate with Pep as she's been with me, while still being straight with her too. Apparently I missed the mark and for that I am very sorry.

Pep, with regard to your "what?" 'bout my asking forgiveness in the earlier post, it was because I felt I owed you an apology for not asking weeks ago if everything is all right with you. I was worried, but I let it slip. I feel like the right thing for me to do would have been to ask you how you were doing and express my concern for you and because I didn't do those things, I asked your forgiveness.

Sally

Pep, I just read your post. I don't have time to read everyone's responses, but just want to comment on what you wrote:

"Lately I have been finding it more and more difficult to support some of the waywards. I am also finding it difficult to encourage some of the betrayed to fight for their marriage.

~~~ especially in cases of EARLY marriage infidelity
and
~~~ especially in cases of REPEATED infidelity
and
~~~ especially in cases of LONG-TERM (years and years) infidelity"

AND

"I am weary of whining waywards "but my neeeeeds weren't getting met" ..... I want to scream ---> THEN GO .... LEAVE YOUR KIDS AND YOUR HOME AND EVERYTHING YOU HAVE WORKED FOR AS A COUPLE AND GO HAVE A SELFISH ME ME ME INFUSION .... but just don't whine when you return to devestation !!!"

You aren't alone. I have had those same thoughts and feelings. I have been trying to help FWHs in withdrawal over in recovery and am so sick of hearing how GREAT their love was with the OW. How it really was special. Maybe they will never have that love with their Ws. I sometimes want to tell them what I would tell H during his withdrawal. "Then go follow your bliss!" But I don't because my H was where they're at and he did snap out of it eventually.

I have also wondered how people do get over LTAs and repeated infidelity also. So you ain't alone Pep! CV

I think she's done a good job to try to get the new posters here to get over the initial drama of the sitch and begin to think with their thinking caps on again.

Overcoming this stuff is not easy. And there are some who return time and again and the same cycle is going on...he's cheated again...she's doing A or B or modified this or that...

And it's not that I think we're not having as much success as it is due to the fact I think the OP are learning just how we're doing the M saving...

She's done a great job imho.

Not alot of hand holding, but after the initial shock wears off of the sitch, it's time for business...I wish I could have done that faster myself. But again, my xh is in a "WS Hall of Fame" class by himself.

I think that the patters created by long term cheaters and repeat offenders is that they haven't had the course of their waters turned yet...no actions taken strong enough at the appropriate time to make them change course in their lives...and then there are some who like the way they are...some WS are just gonna be wayward and are just gonna leave and there isn't anything you can do about it.

I also feel how and why Pep does what she does. She's in medicine. I am too. Lemon is also. We all try to do some helping. We try. Like triage almost...others have "chronic" conditions that have evolved into something this bad and damaging over time, and others have severely "acute" conditions and it's either cpr time with a quick and positive response or it's doa.

Plus when you're in recovery ( I represent divorce recovery) or Marriage recovery, you are further out of the drama that once all consumed your life.

I also admire her wit.

Oh Pep...tomorrow I am seeing my nurse practicioner! I love her...I see her or my doc (there are four docs and 1 nurse prac) in the primary care office. I don't much care for the other 3 docs. Natalie is great! Listens..and is imho, as good as my doc! I swear I think I caught my cold from one of my patients last week...and I think I know which one...she was hackinga nd coughing...I myself put on a mask b/c she just wouldn't cover up her face. an OP...who claimed it was part of her "heart condition (chf)"...but I know either bronchitis or pneumonia when I hear it.

Sally, somehow I don't think that insulting someone's posts as "phony" and "mediocre" bespeaks the words of a person who is sincerely offering support. I know that you have had some trouble with Pep in the past and have even seen you take some cheap shots at her, so I hope you aren't using this as an opportunity to assuage an old resentment. That would be very slimy indeed.

Perhaps you are not aware of how you are coming across, somehow I doubt this, but insulting someone who is sincerely seeking answers is not "support."

MEL

I am feeling really good today. Things are gradually getting put into perspective. I am needing reminding of a few things and one of those things is that I am a work in progress, and all progress goes through a time of uncertainty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> This is GOOD

TT

I don't want to be an institution in the sense that I want to be more flexable and open than that ... but I know that you did not mean that, you meant something reliable. And that is GOOD.

LostInT

I need to do some inner work awhile, and when I feel I can be of service to you, it would be a pleasure. But for now, I am resting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and rest is GOOD

Orchid

I absolutely love the "hind sight support" notion .... your post is helping me reallign my perspective. Mahalo <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mimi

I don't think I told you this (?) I am purposely ignoring your thread about the book BOLD LOVE because it is on my reading list and I want to read it without knowing anyone else's opinion beforehand. I joined a women's bookgroup a few months back, our next meeting is Thursday at my house, and I may suggest that book as a possible group read .... but I know they like novels ... I gotta see. But either way, I have it on hold at the library. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

CV55

When you said that your WH eventually "snapped out of it" I had a wry smile cross my face .... because that is what I want to do ... shake the WS and say "SNAP OUT OF IT" .... and I would be so bold and so rude .... 'cept it doesn;'t work !!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Peachy

love LOVE the medical analogies .... they so totally work for me ...the triage assessment, the CPR for salvagable emergencies and the DOA ... I loved reading this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It is frustrating to try and teach infidelity CPR and all the freshly wounded BS can do is hyperventilate and go all cross-eyed with anxious rage. Where are those 4-point restraints when you need them ??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mel

FYI

I have made a decision to block her posts for now ... which means they don't show up for me when I read a thread ... so you can stop responding to her on this thread ... that would be useful for me
Thanks

First of all, K I really appreciate your words. Thank you.



OK ... detach with love as BrambleRose might suggest. Right?


Thanks for the 2X4


I think you are stating this correctly.


I do believe that, but I have not been practicing that of late.


Makes tons of sense.


Thanks K .... this was food for thought and some really useful suggestions. Much appreciated.

A question .... when you feel frustrated yourself with a particular person you've been trying to support through the MB process, what do you do?

And one more question. How do you handle someone giving advice that seems to come directly from the TOW-board-mentality?

Aussieswife

shall we call you muther jugs

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Here's my 2x4 .......

too bad about your feelings.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

these boards ain't about you.........

these boards are about all of us being GUESTS on someones vision of a specific message boards that is not ours..........

The principles behind these boards do not change...
the terminology of the boards frustrates and even infuriates some...(just ask lemonman....)

to participate here there comes some onus of responsibility to be knowledgable in the principles that are the essence of its creation and sustainability....

the dichotomy in the end is that every single post...good bad heeded unheeded remains only peoples opinions........

I don't believe every marriage can and should be saved and I warp that in my head that we the collective should not focus on saving the marriage...but focus on saving the person no matter the outcome.....

this site in someways is the story of saving the starfish one at a time...and not saving them all................

and though not perfect it is a lot better than any other one out there on the highway of the web....

this place is humbling....

justlearnings never wavering patience
mortarmans Christ focused teachings
Peps challenging short questions that make you stop and say wow why didn't I ask that....
bobpures story of honest struggle and hope....
believer, spiderslayer, weaver....lexxy, bramblerose, orchid......Suzan
mels straight from the hip approach and the fact that she is the only human being on the planet that can use the word charletan in a sentence and it sounds like something one hears every day.
lemonmans input...the good the bad and the ugly....
and obviously too many to name...and none left out to take away their contributions...
and those that have gone.....but a surely missed...

I offer you this 2x4 because I know how you feel.....

To me these boards are like a small present each day...opening up a post to read what it says...
it can be touching and inspiring...funny and infuriating...
and that's just what I like about life.......

Pep...you asked for a 2x4...and I would never deny you your wishes....

but know it is padded with admiration........

I hope you can see it like that....

ARK^^

bwaahaaa!

Love ya, Pep {{{pep}}}

Actually Ark, I would beg to differ with this characterization of present day with me. "Infuriation" is no longer a word I would use to describe my feelings with any aspect of the board. I don't believe that this is an accuare reflection of my views and opinions of this board PRESENT DAY....but then again, you are just giving yours...but now that I think about it, others I am sure still see my posts and views this way, so what I think I guess doesn't matter here.....it is for others to interpret....Who knows what I am saying...it's a Monday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I just want to make sure that I am on the record as having given Pepperband a strong 2' X 4' with no padding or cushion. I am a strong believer in corporal punishment, and giving people what they ask for.

I do aim to please.

Lem

perfection !

JUST what I needed to be told

shut up and deal ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Pep:

What did your Book Club read last month?

Just want to warn you, if they like novels, they might not go for BOLD LOVE...

It's VERY DEEP...not necessarily enjoyable reading, IMO, even for those who might like SPIRITUAL books....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Lemonman...

here's your test...

please submit a 100 word post on the existence of the fog in correct defintion as applicable to THE WS.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

really though..please note that i mean no negative connotation to your approach to these boards...

If I verbalize my belief that I think you have worked really hard at looking at things differently than before then it sounds patronizing and as if I am really saying that MY brainwashing is a success..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
BUT
that is not what I am saying...
I am saying I value the posts.....
I get as frustrated as anyone else...etc etc etc...
and at times infuriated....
and you often speak those frustrations for me....

you have helped many here....
and have brought blessing in to some of those lives...

ARK

Pep:

I am a mere blip on the radar screen of this community. FWIW, you've helped me tremendously b/c your perspective and style of relating is so very different from my own. If I had to sum up your special contribution here, it is the ability to knock people out of their POV-groove and get them to address their problems from a different angle. Which can be especially useful for those who have long-standing and/or cyclical marriage problems.

That said, I'd love to partake in the flogging, but you seem to be moving in a good direction now having course-corrected long before I even caught wind of your recent doldrums. Something in your summary post above reminds me of something I read recently. That you are a work in progress and part of that entails uncertainty. You hold up better under that deep uncertainty than most people I've ever seen, FWIW. When the metaphorical tectonic plates, they are a shiftin'--you just hang on and keep your balance best you can. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All I can manage in the way of a 2 x 4 is a little Nat King Cole:


peace be da journey, back into oblivion for me!

Well, on second thought...I do see what you meant...perhaps my defensiveness of the comment is just my preconceived notion of what I think you "think of me" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />...you get that all?

To be honest with you all, I do still get infuriated with people on the board (and I still have a tough time understanding the true "Plan A"-and I readily acknowledge that), but I think I am just much better at staying away from such posts and NOT flying off the handle with a 2 x 4 that is unlikely to have any meaningful effect and only likely to make things worse.

It is all in the growth of things. I went back and read some of my musings from even one year ago...and I can't believe that I wrote some of the things that I did...it doesn't seem possible...but it was me....it was there all in black and white...maybe I can blame the "aliens"...LOL..

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem, just being honest here, but you do seem to "get it" now. I think initially you became alarmed at some of the Plan A abusers on here and just assumed that this WAS the MB program. I think you can see the difference now and do a darn good job around here.

The Number 1 Ladies Detective Agency

Alexander Mccall

* threadjack *

Pep, I know you read an dloved 'Wild at Heart", but have your read 'Captivating" the book Eldredge wrote with his wife about the search for a Woman's soul ?

I'm reading that now.

Susan sent me a copy but I haven't gotten to it yet....

How do you like it?

"interesting". Not sure the vision of some of the fiery women I have known ( Like Squid, or you) secretly wanting to be rescued, and unveil a beauty and yearn to be Julia Roberts or Cinderella, but I have learned a lot from th ebook already.

Like for example Eldredge proposes that nature's primary purpose is to be BEAUTIFUL, not to be practical. Puppies and flowers could be ugly. Fresh air could stink. But God made them sublimely beautiful and refreshing.He argues that beauty particularly NATURAL beauty sends a message particularly to men " everything will be OK".

And that Eve was God's crowning creation, conveying teh captivating beauty of God.

Read it Pep, i'd be interested to see how much you agree with.

Hi again, Pepper...


What I might do is to try a couple different styles or different ways to get the message across. I might work on a socratic methodology to get them to see or answer the point I was trying to make directly. I might ask another poster to come over and give a hand, especially when they bring a valuable aspect that I may not have in my repertoire. And finally, when I've done my best and I think they've heard all they can from me, I leave them alone and hope they figure it out.

I had a very long 'relationship' with a woman on this board by the name of FacingChoices (JL's first post was to her). She had cheated on her husband, had a child by OM, etc. I worked very hard with her to try to help her give her marriage another chance, but she was pretty closed off to the idea. I got a lot of 'respect' from her for the way I had dealt with my situation (lead by example), but she was pretty sure her husband wasn't the same type of man, and that she would never be able to open up to him and restore her marriage.

Several years later, out of the blue---she was back. With the wonderful story of a restored marriage. A real success. So miracles can happen---but they don't always happen in the timeframe that you might like.


This sounds a lot like the issues we have over on the pregnancy board. I like to treat everyone with respect there---if there are clear nutjobs promoting some wacky stuff---get the admin's on it. But I don't like the righteous anger from the BS's side any more than I like the TOW crap. Neither serves the purpose of making the marriage better. There are too many studies to indicate that "venting" (unleashing anger) only serves to make one angrier and continue the cycle. With people from a TOW mentality, if you're going to deal with them, do so with a "by the MB book" approach, especially with using the appropriate terminology. In fact, that's what I often do when I post here, regardless of 'who' is on the receiving end. When you frame responses in terms of the concepts and terms available on the website (with links...) you can help give people a boost to learning the material, and putting it into practice.

You know Pepper---when I was here and knew everyone's story---it was exhausting trying to keep on top of everything and help everyone. I did that for a few years. I've scaled back---and this place has really grown. You can't do it all, so don't try to. Give yourself some time to heal, or stay away from "helping" and just chat with old friends. Take a breath. You'll know when you're ready to resume the fight...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

If I might interject, seconding BobPure's recommendation of "Captivating." Really fleshes out the stuff he touched on in WAH regarding the nature of a woman and how she uniquely reflects the image of God. And the chapter on "A Special Hatred" juxtaposing Satan and Eve gave me chills.

Pep...

If nothing else, this is why you should keep posting here...you have an inate ability to (pardon the crassness) recognize chicken s#%t from chicken salad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...IMO this ability makes your advice more than valuable...IT'S POSITIVELY INDISPENSIBLE!!!



Here Are But A Few Things That You've Done For US...

• When I posted my Infamous-to-Mr. Wondering-and-I, "Clarity from contacting OM" thread...you posted some really great stuff to me...and when I asked if you thought what I did was "that bad", you said, "bad, yes very bad...more than I am saying"...Pep, you have no idea how much that that short post made me think...and think, and think, and think, etc...It caused me to dig really deep about what I had done and the ramifications of my actions...you help many here, and we never even tell you... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
• On that same thread, I asked you, after you gave me some EXTREMELY well deserved and MUCH NEEDED 2 x 4's..."Pep, are you just trying to engage me?". I couldn't even see how much your posts were helping me...Your questions, your statements...so carefully designed to allow one to come to their own conclusions (much more powerful than you drawing those conclusions for them)...I specifically brought this up to Mr. Wondering just last week...I was reflecting on my unbelievable fogginess, and wow, it is so clear to me now just how helpful that thread was...many of those posts really needled at my fog and aided in it's speedier lifting...I marveled to Mr. W about your wisdom where ignoring my inciteful question to you was concerned...It's now so obvious that it was I who was trying to engage you...like all waywards, I desperately wanted an audience with which to argue my nonsensical rationalizations and justifications...you, of course, saw right through me, and knew how best to handle it...yet again, your ability to recognize how to help shines brightly as an immensely powerful beacon of light...
• Later, on someone else's thread you said "Mrs. Dub'ya, you've come a long way baby"...you have no idea how proud I felt to receive such a compliment from the likes of you...I told you at the time that I had God, my H and folks on MB like you to thank for that...That was not, by any means, an understatement...I "wonder" if all of you "pros" truly grasp just how much genuine respect that you garner from the rest of us here???
• You also responded to one of my posts to bbqdad, with "Mrs. Dub'ya, yer one funny filly"...Pep, that made me feel so good...maybe it's silly that it did, but it did...I really needed that, and I just wanted you to know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I can't name how many times that you have given us a really good laugh, I mean genuine guffaws...Most recently, on a thread where the irrepressible Lemonman had, GASP-Imagine that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />, chimed in...Mimi had told him that he should change his member name to "The Lone Ranger"...he took it under advisement...Now, "knowing" Mimi, she was refering, of course, to his MB name, but hilarious you came back with something like "Mimi, I gave my H's "member" a name too, but it wasn't The Lone Ranger"...even Lem missed that, LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, "snort", as Melody would say...And speaking of that saucy, pepsi drinkin' Texan (pepsi, PUHLEEZE, as an Atlantan, I can only pray that God has mercy on her soul for that one! LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)...Well, anyway, when the two of you team up with the comic relief, well, it's nothing short of genius at times...Do you know how great it is for a couple in recovery to laugh together, I mean really laugh? I know that you do know...I just wanted to point out how instrumental you've been to US, in all aspects of our recovery...

Those are only a few of the things about you that have made an impact on us...And hey, I listed those without even going back and reading...Without question, you are someone that we will always be honored to call "friend"...Pep, you have really reached out and touched us...We will forever cherish and be grateful for the precious fingerprint that you left behind in doing so...

It is you "vets" that have inspired Mr. Wondering and I to stick around here and try to offer to others just a tiny portion of what we have received from ya'll...Pep, even if you decide not to post for a while, AND YOU WILL BE MISSED, if that's your decision..PLEASE come back, if nothing else, we "newbie helpers" need you...we look to you for guidance in learning how we can do what you have become so adept at doing...

I think that many times we don't recognize the things in life that we are really good at...We simply take those things for granted...As the "hey, no big deals" of life...We don't "get" that we are highly skilled in these areas of our lives, we don't see it that way, because those things that we're good at come to us so easily, sort of our second nature, if you will...We don't realize that in minimizing our greatest strengths, we quelch the very blessings that those strengths were intended to give us and others around us...We fail to see that not everyone possesses those same abilities, because we don't even view them as abilities...I hope that you fully understand what an enormous positive and deep legacy you have bequeathed here...You are priceless Pep...



With My Deepest Respect & Gratitude,


Mrs. Wondering



P.S. I "hear" you saying that your "advice well" feels tapped right now...Perhaps you might consider this...Post your story, or if you already have, provide a link for those of us who haven't read it...Sometimes just "hearing" how others have dealt with their own problems can be as beneficial as direct advice...In fact, [color:"red"]HEY, HEY JUSTUSS[/color]...Just "wondering", if Pep, Melody, and other "seasoned" Marriage Builders decide to do this, could you guys create a "Marriage Builders Hall of Fame" board in the Infidelity section of this forum? A board that could be posted to "by mods invitation only" perhaps? I, for one, think that that would be a very helpful place for people here to "visit"...


P.S.S. Melody, I saw that you posted that you understand the feelings that Pep is having...When you feel this way too, just give a shout...I could certainly list specific "pearls of wisdom" that I have collected from your posts as well...to Mr. Wondering and I, you are also priceless...

What a beautiful post from Mrs. Wondering...

You are one of God's blessings Pep...

This entire forum has been a blessing from God to me..

The main thing that I want to share, though, is that I've noticed that my thoughts/opinions/posts, etc. have changed the farther out that I get from D-Day...

Events that I thought I would never forget are getting cloudy and I find myself struggling to really identify with folks that are in the early stages of all this...I feel that I might not be helpful because I cannot relate...don't want to relate..almost like PTSD...I find I almost want to avoid those MEMORIES because my present life is so wonderful and so different..I wonder if this could also be happening with you.. You are way ahead of me in this JOURNEY...

Secondly, it seems that society is changing.. You are in my age group, my cohort..less than 10 years between us. Who would have ever thought that having babies "out of wedlock", "living together" or "shacking up" and many other situations that were kept "hush-hush" when I was a youngster are now socially acceptable....I think infidels use this to legitimize what they are doing and we may find this to be even more INCREDIBLE...BIZARRE...ALIEN than some others....

Just wondering....

Pep,

I was listening to my Casting Crowns CD and this song came on that made me think of you. It seems that they are talking about what you already do.

The love of her life is drifting away
They're losing the fight for another day
The life that she's known is falling apart
A fatherless home, a child's broken heart

You're holding her hand, you straining for words
You trying to make sense of it all
She's desperate for hope, darkness clouding her view
She's looking to you

Just love her like Jesus, carry her to Him
His yoke is easy, His burden is light
You don't need the answers to all of life's questions
Just know that He loves her and stay by her side

(The chorus repeats a few times so I just typed the first part of the song)

You do a really good job of offering hope to the hopeless and showing God's love.

Awesome post, Mrs W! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was wrong ... Susan sent me

The Sacred Romance

She was reading Captivating and she was telling me a little bit about it

Java P

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> thanks .... send coffee

Mrs Dub'ya

I am so relieved I didn't cause brain damage with my 2X4 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'll tell my story later ... "I am taking a rest cure" <~~~~ from the movie Enchanted April

A few days late since the start of the thread, but here 'ya go!

One big Paul Bunyanesque Louisville Slugger (telephone pole size) hunk 'o wood coming your way!!!!

Feeling a tad frustrated??? Here let me move over and make some room on the wooden (complete with the occasional splinters) "bull pen" bench for all those who've "been at it a while." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

P.S. Here's a tweezer. You might find it handy to have from time to time!

CinnyBun .... oops, I mean MD

BEAUTIFUL poem ... that was medicinal but didn't taste bad !

Mimi

Whaaaaaaahahahha

we're like the OLD LADY who says:

"I remember better days and better men."

also from Enchanted April

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

"ouch"

That must have felt rather good ... since I was pretty snotty towards you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> of late .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I am an excellent sliver-remover .... not to worry.

Thanks !

Cafe-Royale


This cheered me up immensely by the way !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have decided to stick to THIS thread for awhile ... sanity may return some day ...or I may have to go looking for it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Your aim is SWELL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I am pleased!

hehehehe.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What was that old saying..."what goes around...."

I've been close to leaving several times myself, so I have a little understanding of the frustration level you seem to be feeling right now.

Just remember how the little guy learned to be a very efficient lumberjack in the Sahara Forest. One swing at time, and before long...the whole big forest is chopped down. And yes, they no longer call that area of the world the "Sahara Forest."

Now don't lose those tweezers, there will be others who will need them from time to time.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

In this life I'm a woman

In my next life I'd like to come back as a bear.

When you're a bear you get to hibernate. You do nothing but sleep for six months.

I could deal with that.

Before you hibernate, you're supposed to eat yourself stupid.

I could deal with that too.

When you're a girl bear, you birth your children (the size of walnuts) while you're sleeping and wake to partially grown, cute, cuddly cubs.

I could definitely deal with that.

If you're a mama bear everyone knows you mean business. You swat anyone who bothers your cubs. If your cubs get out of line, you swat them too.

I could deal with that.

If you're a bear, your mate EXPECTS you to wake up growling. He EXPECTS that you will have hairy legs and excess body fat.

Yup, gonna be a bear.

Don't male bears wander off to find other mates and leave their females to raise the young? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Nope,not gonna be a bear.

I am not coming back.I am going to float around the stars and seek knowledge.Dream of my girls and hopefully be at peace and with God. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

O

Spicey-Musical Group: How goes the rest cure? I could use one meself IRL.

Would send coffee if I could; I had some really lovely Sumatra blend yesterday. By midday, I was buzzing like a gerbil on speed and had forgotten all my problems, along with 90% of what I was supposed to be doing at work. I highly recommend it. Of course, I work in marketing as opposed to medicine. Logic and reason are more a detriment to my work than otherwise. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And it occurs to me that I completely forgot to wish you a happy unbirthday previously. Many happy returns!

<---- going back to the dank cave to crank out more shoddy advertisements and purple prose.

How are you feeling today, Pep?

Still nursing the black eyes from lemon's 2x4?

I go through what you're feeling sometimes. You want to grab people and shake them. "Don't you see how stupid you're being?!"

I had to realize that I was emotionally integrating all of them. I was carrying frustration from one case into another until suddenly, the next newbie to show up received the full measure frustration invoked by their predecessors...and they wondered just exactly what happened.

Go take a ride in your H's Corvette again...send us a postcard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Low

Ya know what Pep? Even the ones that are tough to get through to (like moi)hear some of what you are saying. I found myself being impatient with a newbie WS recently and you know what? The 2x4 to his head worked! Some are receptive and some are not. I have to watch myself too getting impatient with WS's only because of my own sit. {{{pep}}} Hope you are doing better.

it goes like this ~~~~> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Got Harriet Lerner's book from the library .... Fear And other Uninvited Guests ... enjoying picking through that book, looking for any pearls ....

There was one example I really enjoyed .... she was treating a client with rejection anxiety who really wanted to ask a woman out but was held back by his fear of rejection.

Lerner asked him:

"On a scale of 1 to 10, how motivated are you to solve your problem?"

She explained the "1" meant that he'd like to ask her out but in truth he didn't have much energy to work on the problem.

And, a "10" meant he would do anything -- dangle from the Golden Gate Bridge -- if he knew it would accomplish his goal. (remember the goal is to overcome his fear, not necessarily get the girl)

he said he was a "10".

So she gave him homework assignment that went like this:

"Your problem is you don't have enough experience with rejection." She told him he needed to accumulate rejections ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He was to go to a popular mall and one at a time ask random women out for a cup of coffee. She gave him a script to follow.

"Hello. My name is ____ and I hope you don't think I am being rude but I am wondering if you would like to have coffee with me?"

... he could not veer from the script.

He was to compile 75 rejections to get enough experience with rejection before he asked the woman he desired out of a date.

He failed to get 75 rejections ... most women said "no" ... but some said "yes" !!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

He was about to approach a stunning woman, the kind he knew he didn't stand a snowball's chance in Hades with .... when he stopped and realized ... if he could ask THAT woman out, he knew he could ask out the woman he actually did want to date.

Turns out .... he did ask out the woman he had the hots for ... and she rejected him because she was already in a relationship.

And he was fine ! He eventually asked out a different woman, and they began a lovely relationship.

The lesson was

every rejection became a resounding success while each acceptance ("sure I will have coffee with you") obstructed progress toward completing his homework of 75 rejections

This solution to fear of rejection really appealed to me.

Lerner says obviously, this would not work for every situation ... for instance, she would not send a person who did not look sweet and unintimidating on such a task.

Also, she knew this person very well, and trusted that he had good common sense and would not behave in any way that would cause him to come under mall security scrutiny !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

here are her key points in this example:

action is powerful

succeed by failing

risk feeling ridiculous

invite fear in

motivation matters

anywho ... it is an enjoyable lightweight read and I am having fun with this book

I feel GREAT .... Lemonframingham-man loves me ... he just doesn't want to admit it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



ahhhhhh a wonderful suggestion .... roger-wilco (what does that mean anyway?)

You may want to be very careful about where you spend your limited energy .... there is a finite amount of emotional reserve in all of us .... spend yours on yourself first <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And I am awarding myself with a medal for something I did at home....

I developed a PLAN to deal with the expected blow-up of one of my kids when he discovers his phone service has been terminated.

my plan is this ~~~>

"Yes. I realize you had a tough choice to make. Pay your phone bill or pay your car insurance. You chose car insurance, which I think was very smart. One day you will be able to afford both."

His cell phone is under our umbrella, and we elected to discontinue service if he could not pay his way. We are responsible to make sure the bill is settled, and we told him that if this happends, the service is gone.

We are expecting some degree of anger and posturing from our son.

my plan is to stick to my script and not to react to his emotions ... just respond to the reality that in life, some tough choices need to be made, and I think he made the better choice.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

This is MIMI having FLASHBACKS of the DREADED cellphone bills of YOUNG ADULT SONS......

Hi Pep ~ here I am, late to the party as usual.

I think K's comments to you were on target.

I try, and don't always succeed, to limit my posting to sharing my experience, strength and hope and then practice detachment from the OUTCOME.

Here's your 2x4:

You are exhausted from trying to control outcomes. If everyone would just do it my way...the world would work out much better right?

Get out of God's way and stop trying to do His job.

You and me, are in a support role here, not a management role.

Every individual has their own right to make their own choices and has to choose their own path and journey.

To try to 'shorten' the journey for someone else is to attempt to deny life experiences that offer growth, wisdom and maturity.

That little fixer, codependent control freak comes out in all of us when we offer advice and then expect a specific outcome -ie the poster to say "Oh yes great Ms Wise Pep" and do what you said.

Let go, let God.

God has a bigger imagination and way more strength than you or I.

"roger wilco"

http://www.ac6v.com/73.htm#roger

for anyone who is interested in the origin .... about half-way down ...

KEWL

Dealing with teenagers...

Can we call that "Plan T"?

ay-eye captain <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I will report back to you the success of "MY plan T"
because my ONLY expected outcome is to control MYSELF

no matter what his emotional reaction may be to the death of his social life without textmessaging !!

the horror! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

OK this is really really long...
but I keep hearing these words echoed when I come here....
they are from the
The Gospel of John
Scripture: John 5:1-17

In which Jesus asks a man IF HE WANTS TO BE HEALED..

I found this sermon on that gospel...and put some of it here....

it's a good question for ALL............

I cut and pasted..and took what served me with no malintent for the author ...
here is the complete link......

http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/3842.html

but I think Pep.......that the anwer to some your (and the collectives) frustration lays within whether people even really want help in the first place........

It was a good enough question for Jesus to ask.....






So here was a great crowd of people -- paralyzed, blind, lame, sick -- all waiting for the water to be troubled. Out of that crowd Jesus picked one lone man. He did not empty the five porches, healing everybody. He did not invite them all to come down so that he might lay hands on them; nothing of that sort. He went to only one man. The value of a story like this, and the reason it is in the gospels, is not only to reveal to us who Jesus was -- truth about the Lord himself -- but also to show us how God proposes to deal with human helplessness and weakness. Undoubtedly it was the helplessness of this man that drew Jesus to him.

We all can see ourselves, in a sense, helpless, weak, crippled and lame, lying at the pool of Bethesda this morning. We all need help. We all find ourselves paralyzed at times, unable to do the thing we want or ought to do. We find we are lame: we do not walk very well spiritually. This story is included in the gospels in order that we might understand how God proposes to help us through the ministry of Jesus.

John goes on to say what Jesus did:

When Jesus saw him and knew he had been lying there a long time, he said to him, "Do you want to be healed?" {John 5:6 RSV}

What a strange question to ask of a man who had been sick for 38 years! "Do you want to be healed? But Jesus never asked a foolish question in his life. Obviously it was important for this man to answer (at least to himself) the question, "Do I want to be healed?"

I know many people today who do not want to be healed. They do not want to receive divine help in their problems. They do not want to be helped out of their weakness. They love their weakness, their helplessness. They are always craving the attention of others through their helplessness. They sometimes flee assuming responsibility for their own lives. I have even seen people turn their backs on a way of deliverance they knew would work because they did not want to be healed.

I am sure if this man had answered Jesus along these lines our Lord would have gone his way and not done a thing for him. You cannot help somebody who does not want to be helped. One of the things that is true this morning, as our Lord moves among us, is that he will only ask this question of those who want to be healed. He will say nothing to those who do not.

Some, perhaps, may not have yet reached the place this man had reached. They are not helpless enough yet. They are not ready to give up on human efforts to solve their problems. They are not ready to admit they cannot make it on their own. They are still determined to get into the water when it is troubled. Jesus can do nothing for them.

If indeed there are some here who identify with this man, and the Lord is saying to you as we go through this account, "Do you want to be healed?" you have to answer that question. If you say, "Not yet," or, "No, I don't," then there is nothing more for you; you may as well turn off your mind and not listen any further.

But this man at the pool of Bethesda wants to be healed. Notice his answer:

The sick man answered him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is troubled, and while I am going another steps down before me." {John 5:7 RSV}

In other words, "Yes, I want to be healed, but I cannot. I've tried, I've done everything I know how. I want to get into that water, I want to be healed, but I lack the ability; I've no one to help me. I've given up. I have no hope."

Many people here this morning are like that. They have given up on their situation, refusing to believe there is any hope it can change. They see no way, from a human viewpoint, so they have resigned themselves to being weak, failing and faltering Christians for the rest of their lives.

Perhaps you do not see any hope for your marriage. You have tried to correct things. You have asked for help but nobody seems to care; it only gets worse. Many people are right where this man was, with a sense of helplessness and hopelessness of making any change.

That brings us to the critical moment of this story. What did Jesus say to a man who had lost all hope, a man who had given up on himself? Did he say, "Oh, come on, I'll help you get into the pool the next time the water is troubled"? No, he did not say that. He did not offer that kind of help. He could have, but he did not. Did he say, "Hang on. Keep coming here. Perhaps some day you'll make it in time. Some day it will all work out. Some day you'll be right at the edge of the pool when it's troubled and all you'll have to do is fall in"? No, he did not say that either. Did he say, "Let's at least make you comfortable. Let's get you a new mattress to lie on, put a few flowers around you and bring you two meals a day"? No, he did not. These are the suggestions of men, what we say to people. But Jesus does not say any of those things to people who want to hear from him.

What does Jesus say, then? Notice carefully his method: First, he asks an impossible thing; secondly, he removes all possibility of a relapse; and thirdly, he expects a continued success. All these are involved in the words,

"Rise, take up your pallet, and walk." And at once the man was healed, and he took up his pallet and walked. {John 5:8b-9a RSV}

Notice that the first thing Jesus says to do is what the man could not do, what he had tried for 38 years to do. On what basis does Jesus say these words to him? It is important to see that. Somehow this man senses what that basis was. Perhaps he was thinking, "If this man tells me to rise (and I cannot rise), it must mean that he intends to do something to make it possible." Thus his faith is transferred from his own efforts to Jesus: "He must do it. I can't." The man must also have reasoned somewhat along these lines, "If this man is going to help me then I have got to decide to do what he tells me to do."

That is a critical clue many miss when they are looking for help from God. There is always something God tells them to believe, and do, and act on. This is a word of action. Jesus does not say, "Try to build up faith in your mind. Try to fasten your thoughts on this or that." He tells them to do something: "Rise! Stand up!" Obviously it was Jesus' will that this man should do what he told him to do, and the moment the man's will agreed with the Lord's will the power was there. I do not know whether he felt anything or not. All I know is that strength came into his bones and into his muscles and he could stand. He knew he could stand, and he did.

Then what? The Lord did not merely say, "Rise," he said, "take up your pallet." Why did he say that? I like the way G. Campbell Morgan has put it, "In order to make no provision for a relapse." The man might have said to himself, "I'm healed, but I had better leave my bed here; I may need it tomorrow." If he had said that he would have been back in it the next day. But he did not. Jesus said, "Take up your bed. Get rid of it; don't leave it there."

In those words he is saying something very important to people who need to be healed: do not make any provision to go back on what you have done. Many people fail right here. Go home and pour out the alcohol! Go home and get rid of the drugs! Burn your bridges behind you. Say no to the friends who have been luring you on into evil. You will probably find that some of them will come back with you. Burn your bridges. Cut off any possibility of going back. Let somebody know the new stand you have taken so that he will help hold you to it. Burn your bridges, is what Jesus is saying. That is so important. Many a person has really been touched by God, delivered from some inner attitude, a bitter spirit or whatever, but then he has allowed the past to come back in again and he finds himself back where he was. Our Lord knows what he is talking about -- "take up your bed."


What Jesus said is true for us today: God is working in this twentieth century. He is working in international events; he is working in the pressures and problems that come to each one of us; he is working in the very circumstance in which you find yourself today. What you need to know is, where is God moving in your life, and then work with him. Be his instrument. Allow it to endure. The only thing that lasts, that gives significance to life -- and every one of us wants to be significant -- is to be in line with what God does. Only God's work will last. All that men do will fall away to nothing. Even though it be religious work it will be nothing -- trash, crap, burned by fire. What God does is what will last.

ARK^^

Thank you Ark for sharing this gift with me ... and with anyone who cares to read ... well worth your effort...

I got much from this and will re-visit this post many times to get more and more ....

again ... mi amiga ... you are a lighthouse

Hi Pep,

i have only read bits and pieces here but it certainly sounds like you are doing much better and i am glad to hear it!! sticking to this thread only for a bit sounds like an excellent plany.

Although i know you enjoyed LM's 2x4's just for the fun of it, BR's post seems right on the money to me, she is a extremely insightful person, sounds like K must be too.

good luck with controling YOUR emotional reaction when your son finds out about the phone. you have a great plan in place.

love ya pep, i'm glad you are here. not only do you have an excellent way with words when you post to others, your own actions are invaluable examples.

"They are still determined to get into the water when it is troubled."

me .... past tense I pray

ark. WOW. thanks for that!! so unbelieveable timely for me today.

Ark

A wonderful post that speaks deeply and uncomfortably to me.

Thank you.

bob, that post spoke very deeply and inspiring to me today. it's a msg of hope, isn't it?

not trying to change your reaction. i was just surprised by the word "uncomfortable" and was curious.

why uncomfortable?

maybe for me, especially today, i love the idea of burning all those bad bridges and leaving it all behind me and accepting the healing Jesus' offered.

the msg i got was one of how much can be accomplished by trusting in God.

maybe today, more than normal, i can so strongly say, yes to the question, do you want to be healed.

i'm off to IC (first time since before summer).

FL I am always uncomfortable when I am faced with a reasonable justification that I must lean on God and deliberately remove my 'pallet' or my own strength safety net when leaving problems to God to resolve.

I prayed every day for my marriage for YEARS before Squids affair yet God let it be destroyed in the most brutal way imaginable. I struggle to see where Jesus was answering my prayers to strengthen my marriage when Squid was screwing OM and stealing our kids college money. And breaking my good ,kind heart.

Ark's post shows a way into the mind of God. How His thought process works. And it seems to indicate that CERTAINLY if you lean on God and remove your safety net He WILL NOT let you down.

But He does, FL. or at least chooses other than your perceved best interests. In my experience anyway.

Good Christians every day have their babies starve to death in their arms.

Get cancer in their teens

lose children

etc

So I read I must lean on God, when I see God pulling away his support from good Christians every day. Including me.

This is primarily why, sadly, I am a God fearing man, not a God LOVING one. Some faithful speak to our God as if speaking to " Abba, "Daddy", but I address God as if he is an all-powerful but capricious warrior ruler - the old testament God. Because thats the one I see manifested in my life and in this world. I see the action of the God of Job , not the God of the letters of Paul.

So I FEAR knowing that I must lean upon god AND remove my earthly safety net FL. Because I expect God to let me fall if He so chooses.

You asked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have a struggle with this, and I am formulating some questions for Foreverhers. I AM a Christian, but I need my experience to be supported by articles of faith, not denied by them.

I don't believe for one second that God ever abandons us..
nor do I believe that he is the cause of good and bad things...

I believe children starve in their mothers arms...because the Christ inside of me is too stifled by my own selfishness and me being too much of a coward to commit to making a difference........that that blood is on my hands...not Gods.............

and I don't believe God gives people cancer or any other diseases....that those things just come with nature...........and he mourns deeper and harder for us than we can imagine...

and mostly I believe this life is a fleeting blip on the comparison of time with God.........

you say you see only the God of Job...yet you moved through this whole period of your marriage more Christ like than most...........
Bob your compassion transcended most peoples understanding and ability......you at the darkest moments still sought pity for your wife.........

I implore you Bob to seek out the loving Christ that I have only known............

ARK

http://www.karlrhoads.com/trust.htm

when trusting God seems unreasonable <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In my darkest hours, HE has always been there for me, too...

When others have forsaken me, HE has always been there....

I read the link ... more good stuff there ....

my frustration is with MYSELF ... I want that to be very clear ... not with other posters who don't "get it" ... I am the source of my frustration .... hence my need for a "pep talk" ... and this has turned out to be a major blessing for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wonderful, hopefull post Ark. Oh my I really need to ponder this.

bob, ark is right you acted in Christlike loving and trusting throughout your darkest hours. Trust Him. He is always there.

Pep,

I just wanted to thank you for posting this. I am very deeply struggling with some issues right now and browsing through that link led me right to what I needed at this moment.

Thank you.

FIM

All, I don;t want to 'jack Peps thread more than I already have.

thanks folks ! I pray for your faith and your results.

I knew it Bob...
you're just cranky cause your leather thong was riding a little too high.....................!!!!!!!

hows that for a thread jack !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ARKIE

This one is for BrambleRose <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

http://www.karlrhoads.com/insanity.htm

Bob, i don't want to continue to threadjack either, but i did want to thank you for sharing.

I welcome threadjacking

PEP:

What are your thoughts on EVIL and EVILDOERS these days?

Do you find yourself much more aware of this now?

I do.

The good part of this is the awareness has increased my faith in God and my focus on working on my own evil ways and thoughts.

Bob,

If you are listening, you failed to give credence to the significant impact of EVIL FORCES in our world....

bob, ever hear of the book When Bad Things Happen to Good People? I don't believe God allows bad things to happen. not even when my baby girl died. i've never blamed God.

guess that might be cuz i was always too busy blaming myself for not being inheriently good enough.

last year i finally lost that feeling about not being inheriently good, when i came to understand what it stemmed from.

i'm just so glad to be able to accept God's love now, i have not yet had the chance to think He lets bad things happen.

I don't believe that God causes bad things to happen nor does he necessarily let things happen either. He gives us free will, which allows to make choices good or bad. The bad is things like the doctor who "decided" to wait and see on my DS instead of treating him. Not God's fault, never have blamed him. My WH's choice to have unprotected sex with OW therefore bring OC into the world. Choices...

FL, this is not to imply that anything you did caused your baby to die. Sometimes life just happens. I cannot imagine the pain of the loss of a child, though I have come close. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

There is free will...

But also, there is GOD'S PLAN that is too awesome for us to understand...

In my point of view, there is MEANING behind our troubles that we may not be able to understand in this lifetime...

In terms of death, the Christian belief is - THIS IS NOT OUR HOME-HEAVEN IS ... I have not been able to get there in my spiritual journey...hard time accepting my own death and the deaths of my loved ones...

she was born prematurely because an infection got inside the water bag. the infection was due to a bacteria. a bacteria which is normaly found in a woman, in small amounts. for some reason the bacteria grew to a higher count in me during that time. and then it got into the water bag.

she was getting sicker staying in my body. it was the infection more than her small size that she could not overcome.

at first i found a way to blame myself. i had signs that were not normal. i didn't understand what was going on. i was going to talk to my Dr about it the next day at my scheduled appt.

i don't blame God (or myself now) for that infection anymore than i would blame Him when i get a cold. During the next pregancy, i was tested for that same bacteria very often. never had any problem. went into pre-mature labor once at about the same point my DD was born, but Dr (and i) decided that happened more because i was so nervous. It was quickly stopped and DS was safely born on his due date.

Roger that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Love this threat. Interesting stuff!

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Suz!!! Where have you been young lady? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Missed ya.

We moved...!

after living in the same house for 18 years...

I have been unpacking boxes... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for missing me!

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

What's a threat ??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Heehee. Funny stuff. Glad you "got" my 2x4.

My sponsor used to tell me I was at Step Zero, and used to tell me Step Zero was "We admitted we were powerless over nothing."

Feels familiar huh?

I still visit Step Zero alot.

Curious: Susan, how did you engineer registering for MB pre-internet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Shaddup!

THREAD!

It was a typo from typing on my laptop (can't type on laptop keyboards <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) and the threat is that I'm also on dialup which keeps disconnecting. I don't have time to speil <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> check. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

That is way more than you asked for, huh?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />what's this spell check thing everyone is always talking about.........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

glad I don't neeeed soemthang like that........

threadjack threadjack threadjack threadjack

Susan is actually .... Al Gore ... inventor of the internet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

.... bet you didn't know that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I always did think he looked like a 'Susan.'

... well, the REAL 'proof' is in the funny accent .... and the sloooooow talkin'

Al Gore ... inventor of the internet

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> good one !

BOB:

What I find missing with you and others is FAITH.

Faith defined as "trusting in what is unseen and unknown".

I know that I have developed tremendous FAITH in GOD.

I don't know how to help a person develop this except through prayer. I pray this for you.

My favorite verse from PROVERBS is:

"Trust in the Lord with all thine art and lean not on thine understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and HE will direct your paths...."

This is the FAITH that I have..

Regardless of what I am going through and will go through, in my darkest hours, I know that HE will take care of me and that HIS PLAN is for MY OWN GOOD...or the GOOD of others..

I believe that we are all interconnected in working on HIS PLAN...

This belief is popularized in the movies "CRASH" and "GRAND CANYON" and in the novel THE FIVE PEOPLE YOU MEET IN HEAVEN ....how good can come from bad somewhere down the line in GOD'S PLAN....

Mimi, I love the movie Grand Canyon. I even have it on DVD. Makes me feel good ever time I watch it.

Mimi

Faith in WHAT ? Exactly what ?

Faith that God will do what I ask in prayer ? That he will deliver me from my troubles ?

ahhhhhhhhh

good threadjacking !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Soz pep. Mimi made me do it !

Bob, the following is Martin Luther's definition of faith:

i suppose that depends on exactly what you ask for in prayer. do you specifically ask for this or that? do you presume to know what is best for yourself and for the overall plan of things?

He never promised life would be trouble free.

Pray for serentiy, courage, wisdom ( The Serenity Prayer ). Pray for strength, guidance (God, You and I dance), patience.

you posted about how you are not a God loving person as much as a God fearing person. i personally think that is where you have to keep digging.

Bob:

You asked "FAITH IN WHAT?"

My answer: FAITH IN GOD.

This quote from what FF provided says it all for me:



This is the way I feel...

Mimi, FF when you trust in God's grace what does that mean?

What is this 'god's favour' that you would you risk death for ?

Would you step off the observation tower atop the Empire State building trusting that God's grace and favour will save you ?

Would you not call the fire service when your home catches ablaze, because you trust in God's grace to douse the flames ?

If not these when WILL you trust in God alone as I am exhorted to all the time ?

Or do you accept whatever fate throws at you trusting that God intends that fate for you and so it must be for His good ?

Help me understand. I do not want to be person who 'excuses' God when prayers fail. I want to know how God works so that I may expect His response truly. I want to know how some followers consider God 'daddy' when IME God does not behave as my own father did.

Help me.

Bob:

I've been trying to tell you that I personally don't have the words to explain this to you or to help you to "HAVE FAITH"...

I have developed FAITH through being personally touched by the hand of God....

I have turned to HIM and HE has ALWAYS been there for me..through much ADVERSITY in my life...

I have called on the HOLY SPIRIT..listened for what the SPIRIT had to tell me and FOLLOWED...HIS direction...

It's like opening your heart to HIM....




I have FAITH right now as I type this that my Lord and Savior would not ask me to do this...




The Lord has blessed me with free will, knowledge, a telephone, etc. to know to call him...

However, if my house burned down to the ground if I couldn't reach the fire department, if they couldn't come on time, I would have FAITH IN HIM to know that this happened for a reason that would be too AWESOME for me to understand..

If I could understand God's reasoning, how could I believe in HIM and HIS POWER? We have to BE STILL and KNOW that HE IS GOD...

My son right now can't comprehend why we don't let him stay out until 3AM. He wants us to try to explain this to him. We have to say that: "In due time you will understand this. You have to have FAITH to KNOW that we are LIMITING to you in this respect because we know better. We are doing this because we LOVE and CARE for you like no one else does, not out of meanness or our NEED TO CONTROL you". That's what he thinks. We say, "in due time, you will understand. It will be made clear to you".

That's my viewpoint on GOD. In due time, I have FAITH that it will ALL be made clear to me. If not in this life, it will be made clear to be in HEAVEN.....



How did you father behave differently than we do in the example given above?

Bob, you know the story about the guy in a flood that refused a boat, helicopter etc saying God will rescue him only to have God ask him why did he refuse his help when he sent the boat, helicopter etc.? Same thing. No I would not let my house burn down or my children starve in the name of God providing. God provides for our needs in generally very ordinary ways. It is confusing because there is so much suffering in the world and at times we wonder why am I so blessed when other's have nothing? Those are mysteries we cannot understand until we are standing in front of Him. Why did He save my DS's life knowing the kind of life it would be? We cannot possibly think like God because we are human, KWIM?

Bob, the best book I ever read for this in by Dobson "When God Doesn't Make Sense" I can tell you personally at my lonliest, darkest hours He was with me. I felt His presence in my heart and soul.

It is not that He does not answer prayers, Bob, it is that we don't get those answers in the way WE think they should be answered and in OUR time. Remember He has the big picture. He knows what is the plan. It is in His time.

God bless you in whatever it is you are stuggling with.

Mimi I do not doubt God's existence, Nor his power. What I ned to know is how I can expect him to help me in adversity. My expectations so far have been dashed.

I see a near-random sprinkling of blessings and bad stuff affecting sinners and saints alike in this world. Muslims, Atheists , yogic fliers, Mormons, 7th day adventists, Scientologists, Kaballaists, Sufi's, Matabele shamans, lamas and Christians. So Christians don't have the exclusive rights to miraculus intercession. Thats understandable, we're ALL God's children, not just the saved ones.

But what I believe must support what I see. God should not need excusing. I Have HUGE faith in Gods existence an dpower. I do not have faith that God will save me if I ask, if that is not His will.

Earnest prayer for mercy can be answered with death; prayer for safety met with devastation. Curses met with blessings for Christians as well as for anyone else. sometimes when his children ask for bread they DO get a stone.

I prayed daily in thanks for my marriage and in protection of it. And look what happened. I am not saying God 'let me down' I am saying that God has a plan for us , and if that plan is not best served by meeting our immediate needs or wants, or by our prayers being answered in the way we hope, then it will not happen.
I prayed that my Mom should not get cancer. She did. I prayed that Mom should recover from it. She didn't. I prayed my Dad shouldn't die at only 72. He did.

THIS is why I fear to lean on God without any secular 'safety net' that I may be able to fashion. Because if it is not in God's plan to stop me from falling then shall I fall. Hard. And I can never know until I fall if my safety is in God's plan or not.

I do not doubt God's existence, presence or love. What I fear is God's focus on doing HIS thing when it is so contrary to what He nows I would desire.

So I pray " I would like THIS Lord, but not MY will, but YOURS be done".

Leaning on a God who won't be leaned on if it doesn't suit His plan is a risky business. And sometimes perhaps my secular safety net - whatever it may be of my own strength and construction - might just be how God intends to deal with a certain situation.

Ark says God doesn't cause tragedy, but it is some failing in us that does, thats a valid POV. But if that is so WHY PRAY other than thanks and praise? If God will not intercede in cases where man's weakness or devil attack has caused suffering. and if he DOES intercede in some, why not in ALL ?

I just read " wild at heart" and "cherished" by Eldredge. he talks lovingly about God as being not just a FATHER figure, but a DADDY figure.

I have real difficulty with this.

My mortal Dad would have DIED before he let me down: Before he let me fall or suffer consequences of someone elses evil action. I am to talk to God as "daddy" knowing that as often as not he will grant blessings to evildoers and give me a stone when I ask for bread if bread does not suit His plan. That is the measurable outworking of God's action on earth is it not?
If God does not intercede in support of our prayers every time, or even any time more than non praying folk, how can we lean on him without fear ?

I DO NOT DOUBT my God, jut the interpretation of His nature that I am given. I am told by MANY with a greater faith than mine, Ark, pep, Mimi,FF , FL ( almost everyone ! LOL ! ) that I can trust God and lean on him. How can I do this when I have been let down so often?


So that is why I am a God fearing man. God is omnimpotent and fearsome, and can be loving and capricious. His plan, as with Job, is not easy for us to equate with our prayers or best interests.

Thats why when I read entreats to lean on God like that from Ark, it stings me. because I must lean on God without any expectation that he will do as I would ask.

Myself and others are constantly called upon to lean on God in adversity rather than relying on their own sometimes precitable and estimable strength and resources. I fear to do that as I do not expect God to help me, at least not in manifest ways.

I am envious of others who have faith to lean on the uncertain.

Bob, if your children wanted permission from you to do something you did not feel was in their best interest, would you not want them ot discuss it with you anyway? Wouldn't you want them to come to you and ask instead of plowing ahead with their notion of what is best for them? That is our relationship with God. He wants, desires conversation with us. We do so with prayer, solitude and meditation upon His word. He may not give us the answer we are seeking but given the chance He will direct on the right path.

God hasn;t told me yet how its in my best interest for my marriage be polluted and heart be smashed, or what lesson He was trying to teach me. And I've listened closely. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Your marriage needed a hero .... you showed up !

I think so too pep...
I think he saved his wife from the depths of [email]he@@[/email] litterally and figuratively.........

evilness and the devil thrive on this earth.......and isidiously worm their way in places one least expects...I guess that's what makes it sooo evil.....

ARK

Bob. Because of what happened to you, do you know how many people you've helped??????????


BTW. I remember you every day when my computer asks me for a password a hundred times a day. It says:

Squid proxy caching....

and ... he was also THE HERO to OM's relationship and to their young son.

Amen!

Bob, when I had my A I was not yet a believer. God used my internal battle to pull me toward Him. He sent me messages in the way of Dr. Laura, Christian radio programs, my now church family who was praying for me and eventually the astounding ability of healing through prayer of my lovely, beautiful Wyatt.

i'm wondering if Bob is thinking.... "but I was never asked if i wanted to be that hero!!!"

Maybe telling you is not part of HIS PLAN...

Maybe HE'S telling you right this minute through US....

Maybe HE's telling you in ways you are not ready to hear...

This is where the faith and trust come in...The faithful believe that WHATEVER is happening for YOU is FOR THE GOOD...

I hear you wanting it YOUR WAY...

He is not going to speak to you YOUR WAY..it's HIS WAY....

I'm Al Gore. Susan is Tipper...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you there Bob. The act of those things is not of God....nothing good or in our best interest about it. There is nothing God would want to teach us thru that. Meaning we should never have to go through that but if a spouse chooses to walk that way in our marriage, He only gives us a way out of the marriage if we want it, or lets us choose to stay and hope for recovery. I like fast recoveries by the way. If I had a spouse who is an unbeliever, how much harder that would be, but there are directions in Gods word for that also. First of all we are not to get hooked up with unbelievers, if we do, we may pay the price of a miserable marriage even if adultery is not committed.

Lady

Thanks for your support. But I am still confused.

I am having trouble articulating what I mean.

I am saying that God has a plan for us , and if that plan is not best served by meeting our immediate needs or wants, or by our prayers being answered in the way we hope, then it will not happen.

See this here...I struggle with this...
I don't think bad things happen via God to teach us something we need to learn....
I think bad things happen period..

some are really really bad.....

I don't believe any marriage out there needed infidelity...
that it is a good thing in and of itself...

I believe that it is a direct result of free will ....and it is only with free will that we can truly choose to love on this planet...

but what I do believe is no matter the horror....no matter the atrocity God is always there.....

What I fear is God's focus on doing HIS thing when it is so contrary to what He nows I would desire.

see I don't know if I believe in God's Thing....
God's thing to me is to love and perhaps be loved no matter the circumstance....

even this sermon that prompted this....it doesn't say lean on God...it says believe....

ARK

Believe WHAT Ark??? THIS is my frustration.

I BELEIVE in the existence, presence, and love of God. I believe in my gracious salvation. What the sermon you posted triggered in me is a wondering of how we are expected to LEAN On God, either UTTERLY for our healing, like the man in the sermon, or for protection or advancement.

THIS is where I do not see God as a 'daddy'. My dad would NEVER have let ANY evil befall any of us that he had ANY control in avoiding whatsoever.

God aparrantly allows such to happen. This is why I have an OT view of God the father, rather than a manifestation of loving Jesus the godhead.

A prayer to God to protect our loved ones from harm is no more effective than doing nothing, right? If God does not prevent evil befalling us as a result of prayer. Why pray or expect intercession?

MAN I am clumsy at articulating myself today. I need a holiday.

Bob,





I think I know what you mean....

you are confused about God period.

You thought as your Father he would protect you from the very things that have hurt you the most, therefore you turning into "ye of little faith."


Sometimes we suffer from the blows from others.

Sometimes we just have to suffer for His names sake.

Taking both patiently is not easy.

Lady

oooooohhh

Suz is gonna *snort* at this !!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bob: Ahhhhh... now I know why I was supposed to read this thread. I'd been wondering. Not that I don't love Pep, but she hardly needs my input. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

We have so many things in common, and yet your perspective baffles me. A capricious God, doing His own thing without regard for how it affects us? I don't know that God.

The God I know knew me before I was formed in the womb. Knew me personally and intimately; the strengths I didn't know I had in me, and the weaknesses I wanted to never have to face. He knew my heart, empty and aching for the attention my Dad couldn't spare me, and that I would give that heart, to the point of idolatry, to whatever man first gave me that attention and acceptance.

This God knew my husband, too. Saw him broken inside by the lies and sins of his father. Saw my husband's image of Him become twisted into a selfish, self-righteous, dictatorial bully like his earthly father. Saw him run from Him in fear of his sin being seen and sent to ******.

He saw us as we were: lost, a million miles away from Him and running as fast as we could. He saw how we would hurt each other. But He also saw that in being broken like that, we would finally come to Him. He saw our suffering. But He also saw how we would end up helping heal each other. He saw our weakness and sin. But He also saw the untapped strength and grace in us.

I'm four years out from d-day now. I have the perspective to see I was never alone, and none of my suffering or tears was a waste. So much good has come from it all. I have no illusion that our sins were "good" or "intended," but in the words of Joseph "What we meant for evil, God turned around and used for good." In all honesty, me, my husband, and our marriage had to be broken to be healed and made whole. And it's soooooooooooo good to be whole, hon. I can't describe it. The difference between now and before my marriage was tainted and my heart broken is an unfathomable gulf. I look back at who we were and how we were surviving (because you couldn't really call it living. This is living.) It's amazing.

God is like a master chess player. Only instead of being able to see enough moves ahead that He always wins, he sees enough moves ahead that we always win in the long run, if we trust Him. Unless we're determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Unless we forfeit and give up.

My mother was diagnosed with cancer. Like you, I prayed that it was something else, pneumonia, anything. But it was cancer. Like you, I prayed she would survive. She didn't. I thought only 51 was too young for my mother to die, just as 72 seemed too short a life for your father. She died just after midnight on her birthday, two weeks before Christmas, two months before my daughter was born.

And now, it is nearly two years later. I miss my mother terribly. But everyone in my family was drawn closer to God by her illness and death. My mom was an amazing, sacrificial woman; but in a lot of ways, that kept many members of my family from growing. Our relationships with each other were "stuck" and unhealthy in a lot of ways. Her passing forced us to face each other and ask and give forgiveness to each other. Some of that process is still going on.

I've been doing a contemplative prayer online for about a year now at a site run by Irish Jesuit priests, www.sacredspace.ie. I highly recommend it. The second part of the prayer asks for the freedom to give God free rein to work His will in our lives.


In the last four years, I have become a woman I could not imagine being four years ago. Four years ago, I struggled with having enough self-esteem to believe I was worthy of a secretarial job. Last year, I took a leap of faith and started my own business after getting two promotions at my job. Four years ago, I kept everyone at arms length. I mistrusted everyone, and my #1 priority was protecting my heart from being broken, so I had no friends. Now I have the most amazing deep, connected, honest friendships. I have leaned on others' support and been there for them through their trials, and it's made my life richer than I could've imagined. Four years ago, my husband...

Oh my lord, I can hardly reconcile he's the same person. I look back at my very first posts here. He wasn't just dishonest and disrespectful about the affair. That was his basic mode of operating, period. His word meant nothing. His family was the lowest thing on his list of priorities. His "relationship" with God was a joke. And now--he's a miracle. He has clawed his way up to personal integrity hand over hand, and he never stopped trying, even when he failed a few times and I'm sure the Devil was screaming at him to give up. He has earned more trust and respect than I ever gave him before all this. During my mother's illness, he was my rock. He's become a devoted, involved father.

Oh, Bob, I don't know this God you talk about. This distant, cold, aloof Supreme Being. My God is like that parent standing on the sidewalk the first day of school, biting His lip as His kids get on the bus, praying that they make the right choices. Being there later when they inevitably don't, to help pick up the pieces and make sense of life again. Just being there, period, no matter what.

I pray you can see Him, too, eventually.

JP, Ark, FF , LW thanks. Strangely I think you are all supporting my postulation in a odd way.

You all have faith in Gods ability to turn ill for the best, but none of you expect Him to intervene in order to prvent an evil befalling you.
I do too. So did Job. So leaning on God means trusting him to mke the best of a bad job rather than expecting Him to deflect evil from our life.

JP YOUR perspective baffles me, as mine does you. A loving parent waiting on the sidewalk at the first day at school wouldn't let their child be smashed by a drunk driver then help turn it for the best afterwards like the God you describe to me would. He would HURL himself in he way, snatch their chold back, do ANYTHING to avert danger to their child.

I think I am angry that God allowed my marriage to become soiled when I had specifically offered it up in prayer to his care and protection repeatedly for many years.

I'll get over it.

JP, awesome awesome post. Bob, I do believe you are just at a point that you need to cry and rage a little at the Lord. Go read the psalms by David where he is raging and hurting. You will find comfort there.

Time and perspective, Bob. Time and perspective. What you now see as being mangled by a drunk driver and permanently crippled, you may someday look back and see very differently.

My toddler got a sound spanking for trying to run out into the road. From her perspective, what she wanted was entirely reasonable. She just wanted to walk for heavens sake! We'd spent months trying to get her to walk, and now that she could do it, we were stopping her. What's with that? From her perspective, what I did was unconscionable! It was quite literally the worst pain she'd ever experienced!

Know that I know how intense the pain of betrayal is. I remember literally lying on the floor breathless and sobbing. But after even just a couple of years, my perspective is different. What you may see now as a random act of violence, you may later see as the birthing pains of a better self, or the surgical pain and scars that freed you of a spiritual cancer that might have afflicted you for decades otherwise.

Time and perspective.

Bob,

"I think I am angry that God allowed my marriage to become soiled when I had specifically offered it up in prayer to his care and protection repeatedly for many years."


I think I know something about what you just wrote. I have been there. I once languished in that desert for a time. I was more than angry with God. I gave up on him.

Bob, I am a sinner. I can be willful, self-centered, obnoxious, lazy, impatient, judgmental and quite often downright holier than thou. I know very little about God’s plans for any of us. And you know what they say: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Further, I don’t write well and this may come across wrong. So take what you need and leave the rest.

After FWW’s first A I prayed and prayed to God He would not let this happen again. I was in total please protect Me mode. And let Me tell you, I never let up. These prayers became part of my daily routine. (They became rote after a while.)

After DDay 1 of her LTA my pleas became more, what is the word I’m looking for here, adamant, insistent? Perhaps pathetic is closer to the mark. I redoubled my efforts at meeting W’s ENs and I redoubled my efforts to pray God into submission to Me. No opportunity escaped my notice to remind God what I wanted Him to do for Me and My marriage. I asked God for nothing else for years. Only that He not let W have another A on Me.

The night of DDay 2 of the LTA I found myself doubting the existence of God. I actually said out loud, I no longer believe. How could He let this insult happen to Me after I prayed and prayed ever single day for years that this very thing would not happen to Me again. The only answer that came to Me was that I had been talking to the void.

Of course, after I sobered up a bit (I rarely drink, so it did not take much) I very much regretted my denial. Over the next week or so I regretted it more and more. I began to hurt more because of that statement of mine than W’s LTA and all the years of lies and deceit. I could actually feel that void for the first time in my life. It had nothing whatsoever to do with FWW or her A.

I was very afraid but I asked God to forgive me. I cried in church many times. I begged Him to let me take it back. I said over and over I didn’t mean it. And then, for the first time since W’s first A, I finally and irrevocably put everything in His hands and really meant it.

It worked, Bob. I have more peace now than I have had in years. I am much closer to God. I feel his presence more than I have since I was a child. I again talk to God like I did when I was very young and used to talk to Him as if he was my invisible friend. I get answers I trust now, too.

If you look back over what I wrote above you will see Me maybe a half dozen times in those first paragraphs. Now, finally, I no longer think I, Me, Mine so much. I do not know what is going on with God any more than I ever did. But at least I have learned that prayers that effectively ask God to take away my wife’s free will for My sake are not going to be answered.

It took St Paul a genuine 2x4 and another two years seclusion in Damascus and constant listening to learn what God wanted of him. Please give yourself some serious time.

With prayers,

Roger that!

SNORT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I finally and irrevocably put everything in His hands and really meant it.

You gave up working or worrying within your OWN strength and capability and utterly let God determine the outcome and manegemnt of the situation with a quiet peace - the same God who overlooked your prayers for safety so many times before ?

Thats what I can't do. Lean on the same God that for whatever GREAT universal purpose let my marriage become soiled, and smashed : the thing I valued above all other mortal bessings.

i TRUST that God will do the right thing by HIS will, and that in His great plan I am a mote in God's eye but I cannot trust that God will not hurt me again, or that he will defend me from hurt. Because God doesn't do that in my witness.

* As I'm writing this I am reminded that earlier on in this process when I was so desperate I HAD no alternative but to give this us to God's will I was happier and more effective. More 'Christlike' As Ark and FF pointed out.
In my indignation and anger I have picked up the sack of rocks I left at the foot of the cross and am stumbling forward with them again. I truly DID leave them with God and I was untroubed by them COMPLETELY untroubled by them during times far harder than now.

I need to lay down my rocks again and pick up my Bible.

Thank you Lord Jesus.

LOL ! I just read my new Sig after writing this ! My answer has been in my sig for days now ! LOL !

You joking with me Jesus ? You're not supposed to be funny !

Hi Bob:

What is your viewpoint regarding EVIL or EVIL FORCES?

I believe that my FWH came under the influence of these as is possible for all of us.

Paul in Ephesians talks of "Putting on the full armor of God" in order to defend ourselves from these dangerous influences of the ENEMY, i.e. SATAN, trying to destroy us and lead us from the GOODNESS of GOD.

I believe that we live amidst spiritual warfare. Truly, Mimi.

Bob, one of Satan's favorite institutions of God's making to attack is marriage. That is why boundaries are so important. You see God gave us free will, so Squid's decision to have an A was of her own free will. There was nothing you could do or God could do to stop here. Praying for safety for your family is sound. Pray for a hedge of protection from evil around your family. I often pray for God to keep Satan out of our lives but we have to resist too.

funny. before i got to the above post, i noticed your sig and i thought... "i'm going to have to tell bob to read his own sig line!!"

you have this thought that God can control everything. i don't think i believe that. didn't ya see Bruce Almighty? You can't interfere with free will.

God did not want your marriage to become soiled and smashed!!! He did not purposely write this into His plan. I have no doubt that He hurts with you Bob.

He is not like a dad that is just watching his child being run over by a truck. If He could hurl himself in front of the truck, He would. But He cannot interfere with free will.

So he cannot hurl himself in front of the truck but He can comfort you and if you let Him, He can transform the evil into good.

I believe He did just that with you, because you let Him work thru you by loving squid the way you did.

It's ok to be mad about it all Bob!! and you can tell God you are mad all you want.

and then when you are ready to no longer be mad, ask God how He can help you let go of your anger. even if that anger is directed at Him.

at my lowest point, Nov 2003, i was so tired of being so angry!!! words cannot describe how much anger i constantly had. and if i try, i'll cry!!! (and we certainly don't need that happening!!) it really is hard to look back at that time.

this is what my prayer became at that point. "God, I don't really care about anything else, please take this anger out of my heart".

i knew my anger was hurting those around me, my husband, my kids, myself, everyone.

the peace i received as i prayed that prayer on one specific Nov night was very real and it was very dramatic. I sincerly felt a release.

In Dec 2003 i found MB.

i still have to go back to that prayer sometimes, whenever i start to feel anger about anything in the past. because sometimes i do go back to feeling angry about things. and the peace i felt that night flickers up and down as i struggle thru all. obviously!!! somedays i am not feeling at peace at all.

in your situation, what is the anger hurting? i don't think it is the same as mine because you are not hurting those around you, but you are hurting. and I believe, if you let God, he can show you how to be free from that pain.

hope some of these thoughts help.

Bob

What makes you think you shouldn't have the problems you're having?

Mimi

EVIL is often dressed up to appear attractive.

EVILDOERS have a sulphuric smell and my duty is to keep my nostrils open. ESPECIALLY to my own stench !

My AWARENESS, like my mind, wanders. Evil offers some feeling that apeals to each and every one of us. I am trying to sharpen my awareness of what (which?) evil(s) I find attractive or appealing, so I may guard myself.

One thing about me, I think too much ... and in the past, evil has come to me by way of intellectual attractiveness.

I have been finding ways to be more balanced putting my intellect aside and using other resources when appropriate. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm late to the discussion (and not even the original discussion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />), and I haven't read the last page of replies, but I had to reply to this post of Bob's:


Bob, you have exactly articulated what I have been feeling and dealing with for the last year. I won't go into the why's and what happened's to bring about these feelings...suffice to say it's been a difficult journey for me lately, too.

I was born and raised in a charismatic Christian household. My granddad, 2 uncles, an aunt, and both of my parents are ministers/missionaries. I've NEVER before questioned that God's will was always for my good...but now I question whether He even notices me or my prayers, and I question the sincerity of many other Christians.

I don't understand either, Bob. My whole life I considered God to be my "Daddy", but I struggle to feel that way now. I want to, but I just don't feel it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Lori

BTW, Bob, I don't think I've ever posted to you before (tho I've TRULY admired your steps toward recovery), so "Hi! Nice to meet ya!".

“My whole life I considered God to be my "Daddy", but I struggle to feel that way now. I want to, but I just don't feel it.”

Did you ever, perhaps as a teenager, get angry at your parents for making you do something you didn’t want to do?

Even the best daddy will make you learn things. Well, actually, The Best Dads make their children do chores and learn important things, in spite of resistance and complaining, IMO.

I am so unqualified for this discussion. Like you say Bob, I know what I want to say but can’t find the right words. I will bow out now.

With prayers,

Thanks for your thoughts, Aphelion.

My real issue isn't so much with ME as it is with the horrible things I see happen around me. Children being abused...faithful Christians dying of cancer...suicide...murder...fatal car accidents...all horrible things that happen to good people that they CANNOT control, but God CAN.

I do understand that bad things happen to good people. It's part of life.

But lately it's hard for me to see a benevolent and loving God anywhere near those situations I mentioned. I simply don't understand why He allows some things...and He DOES allow them, because they DO happen.

I won't ramble on further with my depressive mumblings. I'm obviously not in a very good spiritual place right now, and probably need to have a good convo with my mom or dad to help me work thru this. Like Bob, I WILL get over this and I will be o.k.

Lori

Where is it written or said that GOD DOES NOT ALLOW BAD THINGS TO HAPPEN?

Nowhere, that I'm aware of.

Just trying to understand WHY a loving daddy would allow a woman to drop her 3 children into the SF Bay.

Just wondering stuff like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Lori

where is it written that God allows (or maybe better word is wants) bad things to happen?

Hi Lori, i used saw your last post. it is very hard for me as well, to understand.

i don't believe everything happens for a purpose, or was "meant" to be. i don't believe all the people who died on 9/11 died because it was their time. that would have to be quite a coincident, that they were all in the towers at that time. nope, bad things just happen here on earth.

but i do think everything can be turned into good by God.

At Peace:

In my viewpoint, GOD CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD...HE IS TOO POWERFUL AND AWESOME for my mortal mind to COMPREHEND....

I'm not saying this is true of you... but SATAN will lead us to question the GOODNESS AND POWER OF GOD...

Satan/evil spirits could have possessed the woman who threw her children into the bay...She could have turned her back on GOD and no longer believed in his goodness and righteousness...

A Christian believes that the children are in a better place...

God could have called them "HOME" to save them from a worse life than they were living....they were in a homeless shelter..their mother was schizophrenic...

I don't question GOD...I have FAITH to know that GOD is with me and "GOD IS GREAT AND GOD IS GOOD"...sang this in kindergarten... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I can't really explain it well,I know.. my feelings about this are almost too intense for me to put into words..

I OFTEN WANT TO SHOUT ABOUT IT...

that's my belief....

That's always been my belief, too, Mimi.

I'm trying to get back to that place. Thanks for your encouraging words (and you, too, FL).

Lori

Nothing Pep. I should have whatever problems life has in store to throw at me like anyone else.

My challenge is with 'leaning' on God - relying on him to protct me. because he doesn't. The man who was healed had to remove his earthly support and rely utterly on God.

I fear doing that. Because it may please God to support me or let me fall, just as easily.

I am happy with my Lot, Pep, I have not been unfairly targetted for lifes' problems. Its the 'leaning on God' bit that I struggle with. Thats all.

Bob:

It seems to me that you have loads of blessings..lots to be thankful for...

How do you account for this..if not from God?

Just wondering about your thought process....

Bob ... has your wife become a better mother to her children due to her humbling experience?

* Pep: Yes. Undoubtedly. And wife. She is a better wife.

* Mimi: I know God is the source of blessings. And I thank Him for my blessings. I do not Doubt God's goodness. I fear to lean on him is all.

see this is where i think you are looking at it wrong. What happened did NOT please God, it was NOT in His plan by His design. Do you disagree? Do you really think He wanted this to happen in order to serve a larger purpose??

or maybe i have it wrong.

but if i changed my thinking to what you are saying, i would be struggling as you are too!!

pep, your question is a good one but i don't think it will help. yes, squid has become a better mom and wife. but that is not the point. cuz then why couldn't God find a different way to help squid become a better mom and wife?

your question show that God is able to make good out of bad. but Bob is struggling with the concept that God purposely allowed squid to have this A in order to help her become a better mom/wife.

so are you saying that thru this whole ordeal, you were not leaning on God at all?

Finally Learning, you said:



Are you questioning God?

Do you think that we can possibly gain an understanding of God's Plan?

As I wrote earlier when I had no choice but to lean on God YES I leaned on him. And my story is a testament to success.

But people who DON'T lean on God ALSO find success. And people who DO lean on God also find failure and disappointment. Like me when I prayed for God to protect my precious marriage pre-A.

ALl I am saying is I fear to lean on God, forsaking all earthly safety net as the healed man in the sermon had to.

I'm OK, really. I need to read my Bible more and leave my sack of rocks with God.

no, i was commenting that the way she posed her question.

am i the only one that does not think God planned this to happen???

do you think God planned this to happen??

i am getting more and more confused!!

I understand what you mean.

A couple recently spoke to DD13's church youth group. Their 17 yo son had just been killed in a motorcycle accident. He was a good kid, totally lived his Christian witness, went to church, his parents prayed over him every day. And he died a sudden, tragic death. Their point in talking to the kids was "Be ready to meet God at any time, because we're not promised tomorrow." Very true.

After that service, my DD looked me in the eye and said: "I thought you said that God loves us and protects us if we serve him, and that I have angels around me to keep me safe.....but the Bible says we're not promised tomorow....SO WHICH IS IT? Is God going to protect me or not?"

Just how do you answer a question like that?

DD didn't understand why God didn't protect that boy since he was a good Christian, and I don't know that I convinced her that God really would protect her. (And I certainly didn't convey my own questions in that regard!)

She was asking the same question Bob was....can I really lean on God or not? I assured her she can.....

Lori

Oh, and I apologize for threadjacking from the original intent of this thread! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Lori

Lori
Its my contention that we can lean on God to do the right thing by His plan NOT by our comfort or wish.

I love threadjacking ... carry on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

would somebody PLEASE address my comments and questions???

I guess that's what I really meant to say, too, Bob.
Thanks for the clarification. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lori

Finally:

Did you mean this?



I wouldn't like to think God planned this to happen.

I think evil forces caused this to happen.

Those are my own "human" thoughts.

However, I don't question God. It may be part of His Plan.

I don't think HE lets us KNOW the answers when we want them. The answers will come in HIS APPOINTED TIME. There's an old hymn which says "WE'LL UNDERSTAND IT..ALL BY AND BY.."

I have gained some answers to difficult questions about tragic life events that have happened to me. Some questions haven't yet been answered for me.

I continue to have FAITH that all is for the GOOD for those who love and trust in the Lord...

FINALLY:

It seems that you are doing a lot of THINKING about this..

I do not.

I have sort of a LOVE AFFAIR with GOD which is VERY EMOTIONAL...BIASED in HIS FAVOR....

no, i was commenting that the way she posed her question.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have no comment on your comment <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

am i the only one that does not think God planned this to happen???

God did not plan Squid's affair, Squid did.

do you think God planned this to happen??

No

i am getting more and more confused!!

[b] ... but being confused is OK .... everyone gets confused in these types of conversations ... it's part of the problem ... we are trying to put into words things we cannot put into words ... no one can put into words ... and the struggle Bob has of trusting and leaning is UNIVERSAL .... we all have done it, we all will do it and we all will continue to struggle to put this God into words so we can understand ..

it's a mystery

and that is part of the beauty

I find I do better with this when I struggle less and imagine myself to be a vessel .... not a seeker of knowledge ... but a ready receptacle if I am chosen.

know what I mean?

WONDERFULLY SAID, PEP!!!!!

That's why I luv ya...

I know you weren't looking for a compliment...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

obviously i am not getting my thoughts across effectively.

then sit with them until it becomes clear how to express yourself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I must say ... you have a new fire going on and I like it !

I think that you are thinking too much.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not taking you lightly or trying to make a joke....

"LET IT FLOW"

Dear Shattered .....

true then

and

true now

I love a good phrase that says more than what the words intend ... the imagery just works.

I meant to comment on this oh-so-many pages ago .... so I finally got caught up.

Cheers to you miss S-Dreams .... maybe now it is recovered-dreams ? or maybe realized dreams?

First, just for the record.

1. i'm not thinking too much, i'm wanting to share and learn.

2. i absolutely do not think you are taking me lightly or trying to make a joke. but thanks for letting me know.

i am a bit frustrated this is true.

here are some of the comments i have made that i didn't see responses too. and so i am wondering if others agree or disagree.

all of them were trying to get across:

1. my belief that God does not control everything that happens. To do that negates free-will.

2. my belief that God can take any evil and turn it into good and make it work towards His Plan when we allow him to.

the first quote is:

but in reading back, i did see where FF and mimi commented on that.

FF:
Mimi: to which i say, yes, i agree God's Plan is too awesome for us to understand, but my question to you mimi (and everyone) remains....

do you think there is a master PLAN already determined?? and do you think God purposely allows specific bad things to be written into ones life?

another...
in response to bob saying:
i responded with:

does that help?

I think what Mimi is getting at is that God takes the bad (ie Squids A)and turns it into something good. as in Squid becoming a better mother and mate to Bob.

FF, i believe the same.

i was hearing in bob's posts that God purposely let this happen.

my posts were trying to get across my belief that God does not purposely let or even want bad things to happen to us.

To me, that belief seemed to be what Bob was missing and what might help him. assuming that belief is correct, which i truely believe it is.

with how the conversation was going... i was not seeing if others agree or dis-agree with this belief.

and i am very curious to know.

i also never saw Bob specifically address what i was saying.

also, i'm not sure mimi believes God merely takes the evil and transforms it into good. to me it looks like mimi believes God purposely puts these situations into our lives.

I know FL, sometimes the conversation is on different levels of thinking. For the record, MHO is that though God knows us intimately he does not know the choice we will make. He gives us the ability to make decisions for the better or worse for our lives. However...He can turn those bad decisions into growth, fruit if you will, IF we allow Him to. The point is you cannot force a WS to stop an A by praying because they have to WANT God to intervene.

Mimi, I understand in some ways how you feel. I have such a passion for Jesus that some days I want to tell people "I am in love"! Even thought I do not understand His ways my love for Him is passionate.

FL in truth I see my advisors here as inarticulate in describing the real NATURE of God's involvement with humankind as I am.

Some infer God allows or sends evil to befall us to teach us lessons or that some greater good may follow. But this is not uniformly borne out in my experience so it cannot be the only description of God's interactions with us.

Then it is inferred that blessings come from God but evil does not. Does this mean when evil happens, God is not in charge at that Moment but Satan is? I can't believe that. Satan asked God's permission to plague Job, and God allowed it. I can only assume that is the case for everyone, not just Job.

Then it is inferred or stated that we can rely utterly on God, but I am yet to see explained exactly WHAT we can lean on God to do. We have already determined in this discourse that God does not usually prevent oncoming troubles, despite petitionary prayer. Not all the time at least. Not like a mortal Dad would anyway.

So we can only rely on God to protect or uphold that which we pray for or care about until it is targeted for evil attack or for a harsh lesson being taught, at which time he will bite his lip and grieve as the train smashes the school bus ??

SURELY that can't be the right interpretation ?!

So some also say we can rely on God to heal us from the hurts caused by evil attack , bad choices or happenstance. But as I said good Christians' children starve to death in their arms every day. So in what way can LEAN on God ?

I am NOT seeking to break anyone's faith. I WANT a great faith Like Mimi and FF show here BUT it must be borne out in my life.

My expectations for God MUST be real and accurate else I will be disappointed in God and thats just wrong.

Pep, SQUID chose to have an affair, so despite year sof earnest prayer to sustain my marriage, God allows her to pollute it. If People choose eveil, perhaps I should have Prayed to Squid ( petitioned Squid) to sustain our marriage instead of God?

If God does not intercede in response to prayer, why pray other than to praise and worship?

If God is "ABBA - father" why does He behave in a way that would see mortal fathers carted off to prison for neglect ?

I need to know what to expect from God. Then I can lean up to my expectations upon him.

I think I need to read my Bible and pray for insight.

Hi all,
Love this thread…thought I throw my 2 cents in.

Just like bob I straggled with the same issue for a along time….when I was younger I would look at all the things that were happening to me and think why did God let this happen to me and I asked God to help me and HE did not and I blamed him etc…

Over time I wanted to have some understanding of God that I could live with …I had a hard time reconciling the Old Testament with the new…a vengeful God vs. a loving God…

I wanted to understand how could a child be raped and killed. I always think of this example and it puts to rest any thoughts of God is letting it happen for some other plan.
Seriously, I cannot believe in a God that would just let it happen…

God gave us a chance to live without pain and worries but we did not take it....he wanted to take care of all our pain and worries and trust in him…we did not take it…so now he let us have what we wanted…the ability to make a choice…and he lets the wave ride out…for everyone…he does not pick and choose who to help where to act…he gives all of us the chance to do as he showed us to do…do the right thing live the right life…trust in him to get through it all…some of us choose the right path some don’t…since we live in a society we have to live with the choices that PEOPLE make…we have to live with the killers, kidnappers, robbers, adulteress, (bad drivers!)….etc… God is giving us free will to follow his word…just as he gives it to the spouse that is faithful, he gives it to the spouse that is not…He chooses not to interfere in the adulteress path and to stop him from what he/she is doing…they, just like the BS, have the free will to make a choice and take an action….

I believe God is watching and he is present in our lives and if we reach out to him and believe in him and have faith we can find peace in what at times feels like an insane world….

I believe God hurts when he sees the wrong paths taken by some of us….you can ask why does he not act…but HE DID ACT…that is why Jesus came, to save us no matter what we do…that is how much he loves us….

By that action alone I cannot believe God stands by and lets bad things happen…he saw our actions and did not like it….was angry (and who could blame him), frustrated with us and sure at times wanted to give up and be done with us, yet he still comes through and than boom he sends his son to save us…Blows my mind….certainly not something one could foresee…


I don’t pray for God to fix a specific problem……I reach out to find peace in my mind to do the best I can…have him by my side to deal with all that is going on ... Most of us don’t need God to know what is right and what is wrong… I believe in God and trust in God to have peace in my mind and have strength in my heart…

What is God’s plan? I don’t know….when God says I have a plan I don’t imagine that all my choices have been taken away and my life is already planned out….I cannot believe God would do that…it just sounds so boring….and unimaginative…I believe God is so out there that I cannot even imagine what his plan could possibly be….Just like the whole concept of GOD is impossible for me to comprehend – and I just have FAITH, so is his Plan and I have faith in his Plan….

I still get to make my choices and God has his mysteries….


Hey, go easy on me, hard to some up something inexpressible in one page….

Daisy

all of this is really making me examine my beliefs and for that i thank all that have shared.

but more than that... i brick just hit me in the head. i realize that although i can say i believe the things i have said here, i realize don't even come close to letting that belief guide me in life.

it's kinda like the light-bulb moment (maybe that is better than a brick) i had when i realized that although i truely felt i have always believed in God's love, i never felt like it was meant for me. i was outside the scope of His love. that light-bulb moment occured because of something my IC and I talked about. and it really made a huge difference in me. it was shortly after that light bulb moment and partially (if not entirely) because of it that i was finally able to confess everything else to my H.

i wonder how much more i can accomplish if i allow this light-bulb moment to take deep root in me too.

have a great weekend all.

Hi W_D.

So you pray " Lord, sh*t will happen, but grant me peace in the storm" ?

Can we really expect nothing from God but salvation and settled mind? Is that IT?

So what does the sermon Ark posted mean, that to receive our blessing we must trust in God so completely that we 'take up our pallet' ( our worldly safety net) if God provides salvation, peace of mind and nothing else?

I am so confused by this !

At my church we had a visit once from a man called Oliver Raper who was a bigwig in Reinhard Bonkke's ministry.

Have gave us witness of the worders God was working in rural Africa. He had seen new eyes fill empty sockets, and crippled limbs made straightened. WITH HIS OWN EYES.

Now assuming this Godly man wasn;t lying, HIS God is one who intercedes physically in evil circumstances.

How is that reconciled to this 'God who offers salvation and peace of mind only and stands by while trains crash".

THIS is what confuses me. Is it something I am doing wrong ?

Hi Daisy, great post. thanks!!

Hi Bob, i just saw your post too. as you can see, you are certainly not doing that!!

Bob, it may be tomorrow before I can get back here but I won't to answer that last question best I can because the God I believe CAN heal the sick, the lame, the sinners however only He knows what is really best for us. The problem you are struggling with is why he allowed your M to be damaged. He didn't, Squid did. You CAN lean on him Bob but you have to use the tools he provided you as well. Anyway, I have Dobson's book at home and I will find what I am trying to say and post it. {{bob}}

Bob,
Good comeback!

Bob, sh*t does happen! And I don't hate God, blame God, wonder why He lets it happen etc... To me he operates on a whole different level than you and me. Yes, your instict would be to save someone from a train crush, and stop someone from choosing to be with a married man/woman and stop someone from cheating...etc..but to me that is not Gods way...would it have been your way to send your only son to the cross? Probably not! God works in ways we cannot possibly understand...and it does not bother me, I am not angry at him for not stopping half the crazy people in this world...when I know HE CAN!...

that is my belive, my conviction...and I am sharing it with you...with it I love God, trust in him, have FAITH...

FAITH is a tough one, and it is even harder to explain...

I think it is so hard to express that others can always find a 'loop whole', which does help me to think about my FAITH and just wonder and ponder on it more...


See Bob, I don't view it as "that's it"!
Can you get that from anyone else? What I get from God it hard to explain and I will have to think more on it...but salvation, if you take that alone, is that not prity big?!

Daisy

W_D if you dont expect god to intervene in your favour in worldly issues, why do you petition Him in prayer ?

Salvation is, of course, the ultimate mystery and grace. But it is not the imediate answer to every situation we might call upon God for.

Bob,
As I said this is very hard to explain...I don't pray to God to 'bring my H home'...I just trust in Him being in my life...that is the best way I can say it now...I don't pray to stop all the insanity in this world...if he wanted to do that - wouldn't it be already done?...I do my best not to participate in the insanity and I trust in His strength to get me through..
I don't view praying for X as being the same as trusting and having faith in his love! I just don't and I will not be able to explain it to you otherwise....FAITH defies logic and hence I cannot use logic to explain any of this...

Lastly, let me say that I don't pretend to understand God...I question and ponder and form in my mind my best (not complete!) understanding at any given time that I can.....
I don't expect that this is the right way! ...God may just be shaking his head as he reads this....

Daisy

God may just be shaking his head as he reads this....
but smiling I guess !

Thanks W_B. I'm off to bed. Its 1 am here !

Bob,
I hope he is smiling!

Enjoy your weekend!

Daisy

So Pep, howa' bean?!?!?!?

L.

good

I think God is a drama queen !

God calls us to do battle where the deck seems stacked against us and in favor of his enemies and our enemies.

Our 'victory' .... in whatever form it takes .... is part of His glory. The drama queen.

From The Sacred Romance ... "The battles God calls us to, the woundings and cripplings of soul and body we all receive, cannot be simply ascribed to our sin and foolishness, or even to the sin and foolishness of others."

"The display of God's works through our wounds, losses, and sufferings is yet to be revealed. And so we groan and wonder."

Bob is groaning and wondering .... he is right on target as far as I can tell! AND, Bob's groaning and wondering does not mean Bob's faith is any less than anyone elses !!!!

so there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Like Lieutenant Dan in Forrest Gump .... we put our will in front of God's will, and when we are not used in the way we think God should use us ... (Dan thought he should die in battle and NOT be crippled) we get all prickly and petulent and disobedient .... but Dan eventually found grace in his crippling .... and found peace with God's will.

Easy?

HA!

never easy !!!

nice?

HA!

hardly !!

Sweet and tender ?

HA!

sure .... yeah, right .... we think we "know" God's plan for us ... all of us are too short-sighted ... our role in this drama can change on a dime ...

our free will is in accepting God's plan or fighting it ... and we suffer either way whether we accept God's plan or not .... life is suffering ... everything that is beautiful in life also suffers for the beauty

this is the adventure

life is a drama adventure

For me Bob, what you are talking about is the secondary benefit of prayer.

When we go to God in prayer, it is in thanksgiving. We offer our love and devotion to God...lay it on His alter.

All our gifts are then a secondary benefit of prayer, through inner peace and good choices which come from being one with God.

"Seek first the kingdom of heaven, and all else will be given to you".

It is our love affair with God which brings good things into our life. When we offer our love to God, the Holy Spirit comes into us, and the choices and decisions we make are with the eyes/heart/mind of a spirit which is holy. And therefore can only bring that which is good to us.

This is what I am finally learning...after all these long years.

Hey Weaver! How are ya? I was just thinking about you this week and how much I have missed you. Hope you are doing well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think Bob has God confused with Santa Claus! Here is the idea, Bob, we are supposed to follow God's will, not the other way around. We can't dictate to God, so sending up a list of demands is a waste of time.

God knows what is best for us so we should pray for his will and the strength to carry that out. Never did he promise us freedom from life's trial and tribulations, only the strength to be able to handle it. Jesus told us in the Sermon on the Mount to pray to God "your will be done." He didn't tell us to pray for OUR WILL to be done.

Hey Mel!!!

I am doing really good. Life is great, and I have so much peace in my heart now. I decided to devote these months to God, and I can't even tell you how good things are for Paige and me. Our cup truly runneth over. The sky even seems bluer! LOL

Life is good girl and I am happy you were thinking of me. Thank you Mel!

Hi Weaver!! I missed ya girlie.

I think Bob has God confused with Santa Claus!
ROFL ! Funny 2x4 thanks ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here is the idea, Bob, we are supposed to follow God's will, not the other way around.

How do we know what God's will is in any given situation ,Mel ? when I prayed " Please protect my marriage Lord" for years how was I to now that wasn;t God's plan ?

We can't dictate to God, so sending up a list of demands is a waste of time.

Of course ! Nobody can demand anything of God ! but are you saying we shouldn;t ASK either ? And if we do ask what can we expect ? THAT'S my central point.

John 14:13 "and whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14:14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do."

God doesn't say " that I MIGHT do if I feel like it"
Or "I will do If it is in my plan".
or " I might not, I'm the boss after all and I don;t answer to you".

So whats up when that is borne out in our lives ? Scripture says WHITE, experience says BLACK.

Now I can give God a free pass, or scripture an excuse for being old, but I think that's lazy. There HAS to be a way to interpret this ( and other) scripture that explains what we see in our lives.

I'll write this up for FH and mail him I think.

Thanks folks !

Friends on this Thread:

I thought of one of the greatest testimonies of FAITH: The 23rd Psalm

"My cup runneth over.."

"Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies..."

"I will fear no EVIL"...

A TABLE FOR ME: includes MBers...

ENEMIES...EVIL: YOU KNOW WHO/WHAT

Wasn't God's plan?? It wasn't God's plan for your W to commit adultery, Bob. That was your WIFE'S plan to commit adultery. Don't blame God for your wife's choices.

God's will was NOT for your wife to commit adultery. Does that mean that He will step in like a cosmic puppeteer and stop your W in her tracks? No, because that would be removing her free will. We all have the free will to choose evil, God is not going to reach down and stop us like a puppetmaster. God wants us to CHOOSE Him and CHOOSE to do good of our own free will. If he removed our free will, then that wouldn't be love, it would be coercion.

And if God stopped evil in its tracks, who would he start with because we are ALL evil?

God never promised you freedom from evil, Bob. In fact, he promised you that life would be full of evil and to put on the full armor of God to guard against it. He promised you the strength to endure it, not freedom from it.

Bob, is your interest in God contingent upon his doing your bidding?

Bob, do you think if you ask God to provide you with 70 virgins, he is going to do it? Of course not. When he says, " "and whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14:14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do," this doesn't mean that he is promising to do your bidding, but HIS. If it is his will, asking in his name, and if it glorifies the son, then He will do it. This must be taken into context with the rest of the Bible where he expressly tells us to ask that HIS WILL be done, not ours. Nor does that mean he will remove another's free will to do our bidding like a cosmic puppeteer.

We don't know what his will for a given situation will be outside of what the Bible tells us. We can know what he expects FROM US by reading the Bible and applying the principles to our own lives. THAT is his will for us.

Bob, is your interest in God contingent upon his doing your bidding?

Of course not Mel.

I want to know what to expect from God so I am not disappointed or unpleasantly surprised by Him. I am being honest here. God deserves no less from me.

I prayed for many things and they didn't happen. I prayed for other things and they did.

This whole discussion started when Ark posted a sermon to Pep about leaning on God and I said that it disquieted me. I do not know what to lean on God FOR. I still haven't had an answer really other than "to be there" , peace of mind at times of trouble, and salvation.

Clearly I can't lean on God to do what I ask in prayer, but according to teh sermon if I want healing I must len on God UTTERLY , and not only that must remove my earthly support ( take up my pallet").

This could be equivalent to not taking drugs and relying on God to heal instead I guess.

I would REALLY fear to do that DESPITE the biblical exhortation to lean utterly on God to receive my healing. I'd pray, but I'd take the drugs.

I'm trying to work out if that's faithless: whether my itercessionary view of God borne of my time in a charismatic church is actually incorrect, and God intervenes far les than I tought in the affairs of mankind.
I dunno.

I guess I should take this to a pastor now.

Thanks everyone !

Praying tonight I realised that I am under spiritual attack. Maybe the whole board is right now. So little joy, so much pain right now. Can you IMAGINE the DAMAGE this board does to satans ambition to ruin lives? No wonder hes attacking us.
So STUPID I didn't see the signs.
I am certain. Need to pray.

Philippians 4:13, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Wow, Bob..God is truly with us tonight...

I signed on to share what I had been reading in WHEN GOD DOESN"T MAKE SENSE by Dr. James Dobson.

He refers to Paul in his last two paragraphs of the Chapter entitled FAITH MUST BE TOUGH .

Dobson says on pages 176-177:

Paul addressed the matter of expectations directly:

I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being contentin any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through him who gives me strength .(Phillippians 4:12-13)

Paul's secret of contentment emerges from a universal principle of human nature. It is to trust God regardless of the circumstances and not to expect too much perfection in this life. A better day is coming for thouse whos source of contentment is in the personhood of Christ Jesus!

Bob, I opened my copy of "When God Doesn't Make Sense" and here is what I already had bookmarked. It was a God thing yet again.

"My concern is that many believers apparently feel God owes them smooth sailing or at least a full explanation (and perhaps an apology) for the hardships they encounter. We must never forget that He, after all, is God. He is majestic and holy and sovereign. He is accountable to no one. He is not an errand boy who chases the assignments we dole out. He is not a genie who pops out of the bottle to satisfy our whims. He is not our servent--we are His. And our reason for existance is to glorify and honor Him. Even so, sometimes He performs mighty miracles on our behalf. Sometimes He chooses to explain His action in our lives. Sometimes His presence is as real as if we had encountered Him face to face. But at other times when nothing makes sense--when what we are going through is 'not fair' when we feel all alone in God's waiting room -- He simply says "Trust Me!"

Does this mean we are destined to be depressed and victimized by the circumstances of our lives? Certainly not, Paul said we are "more than conquerors". He wrote in Phi 4:4-7:"

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again. Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus .

One of my favorite scriptures:

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

1Peter 4-12-13
Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is revealed

Bob, may I share something extremely personal with you? I wrote this long ago for a talk I gave to one of women's retreats:

When my son, W, was 7 months old he became very ill. He spent 4 weeks in the hospital including 1 week in the intensive care unit in a medication induced coma. When he came out of the coma and began to respond to the medication we found he was not the baby we had originally brough into the emergency room. This child was paralyzed on the right side of his body, so weak he was unable to make a noise louder than a kitten mewing and had the head control of newborn. Often during this long ordeal I felt God's presence in W's room. Many people were praying for our son. Encourgement came in may forms from the respiratory therapist that spent many nights pryaing with me to the young hospital chaplain that spent hours talking to me to our church family praying and visiting us. Our son was near death many times yet God chose to spare him. During this terrible ordeal some friends gave us a book called "When God doesn't make Sense" by Dr. James Dobson. I spent hours in that hospital room reading that book and discussing it with the chaplain. What a God given blessing that book was. I was not a baptized believer at that time. My relationship with God was new and vulnerable. He knew I needed hope to hold on to and He provided it.

Thanks FF. Really.

I'll get on amazon.

just a quick look here, this thread has really impacted me...

i wanted to make one quick comment...

HE DID ANSWER YOUR PRAYER, he gave you the resources to fight back and save your marriage. I have no doubt, God uses MB.

you think "protecting your marriage" means don't let anything bad happen like an A. free will makes that not possible. but when the A happened, God helped you have strength, and knoweldge, and patience and that resulted in your marriage being protected. don't ya think?

i know i found MB due to my prayers, i am certain of that. when i finally hit bottom and started to pray and look for God for help, He was there and He provided me with so much help.

He did protect your marriage Bob. just not in your ideal way.

maybe that is of little comfort for you and i can certainly understand that.

I agree with you, FL

Fl, I have real difficulty with that interpretation.

It is like " Lord, help me lose some weight" and God saying " sure, child, here's bowel cancer".

God did not protect my marriage,he helped me recover from disaster. Thats very different IMO.

But I am not listening any more to 'job's comforter' in my ear. It is an attack I am sure of it.

God is with me. I am praying.

Bob, where did God promise to protect you from life's trials and tribulations? Do you feel he has made this promise to you?

bob, after i posted and signed off, i thought...

maybe i have my persepective because i am not the one that was betrayed.

and i appologize.

i think i am trying to talk to bob like he is my BH, and in a more positive way that would help him so he can heal.

i don't think that is fair of me.

i'm no longer even sure if i should try to continue to participate in this conversation. but that is a seperate question and one for me to figure out.

this is confusing... cuz part of me still really thinks what i am saying is valid.

God would not say, "here is bowel cancer" anymore than i believe he said... "i'm going to arrange squid to have an affair". she did that, not God.

Mel he didn;t, but he promised to answer prayers. I am trying to work out if it is worthwhile asking God to intercede in our lives or not. It seems not, what I am being told here.

But ... you have been betrayed in life, haven't you?

We all experience betrayal by fellow humans.

Bob, you answered no to my question but then went on to say that 'yes, but he promised to answer my prayers." Meaning that you expect him to protect you from all trials and tribulations and make your life trouble free. You do expect this, don't you? And I just wonder where this expectation comes from?

((( MEL )))

thought you could use this .... Are ya feeling frustrated ???

There is only so much you can take sometimes (other thread .... not this one)

Thanks, I needed that hug badly! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am learning to just walk away.

Mel, you're putting words in my mouth my dear friend.

'please look after my marriage" and " please don;t let my Mom get cancer" are not the same prayers as " make my life trouble free Lord".

Do you pray for God to intercede in your life with an expectation that he might answer positively Mel ?

My expectation comes from Scripture :

John 14:13 "and whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14:14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do."

and

Matthew 19 "I also tell you this: If two of you agree down here on earth concerning anything you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you. 20 For where two or three gather together because they are mine, I am there among them."

Can anyone relate to this thinking?

[color:"blue"]~~~> "I am so flawed that no one could possibly love me or would choose to be with me if I were completely exposed for what I really am."[/color]

I was reading about the difference between guilt and shame.

guilt is feeling bad about what I have done

shame is feeling bad about who I am

and borrowed shame is feeling bad about who I am because of what someone else has done

Mel:

Just remember that those that are closer to D-Day often are in a fog of our own. Sometimes we want to just hear what we want to hear or rationalize that what we are thinking is correct. MM gave me some advice once when I was in the same place that kind of PO'd me at the time. I thought I was just being rationale and moving through the process. But after I thought about what he said for a while and finally acknowledged that as much as I wanted to stay where I was in the process and not do the right things to move forward, he was right.

I followed his advice and after doing this was able to continue to journey instead of stalling out. I know it is frustrating for you and others, but keep the faith. What you do is important and even though not everyone listens, many do and it is lifechanging. You knock a few years off of purgatory everytime you take time out to help someone you don't know. You can lead them to water, you can't make them drink.

..... so true ... but can't we push their heads down into the water and hold them there ... just a little??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Pep:

I think you pretty much summarized a significant reason for my FWW's A. Took us several thousand dollars of IC to get down to this and you summarized it in one sentence for free.
As for borrowed shame, I think every BS experiences that for a long time, maybe forever.

~~~> "I am so flawed that no one could possibly love me or would choose to be with me if I were completely exposed for what I really am."

thats squid that is.

Pep:

Yes, for most of us at one time or another we need our heads held there for a while. But as one of the other posters here by-line says: Some people just don't get it. They don't get it that they don't get it.

bwaahaaa!

In answer to your question, Pep. Yes. Yes to guilt, yes to shame and yes to borrowed shame. Working on all of this.

~~~> "I am so flawed that no one could possibly love me or would choose to be with me if I were completely exposed for what I really am."

[color:"red"] this is vanity [/color]

Agreed. Self importance

Bob, but aren't those the very things that are the substance of our trials and tribulations? He never promised you a trouble free marriage that was free from trials, that is my point. God allows evil to happen. He allowed your W to choose evil. And then gave you the resources and the strength to fight against it.

Just look at the experiences of the apostles, they did not experience protection from life. And that is because God does not promise to protect us from life. He only promises us the strength to survive while abiding in him.


I never send up a wish list or dictate to God, because he knows better what I need than I do. My wishes pale in comparison to the blessings he has given me. Instead I ask for His will to be done in my life and the strength to hang onto my [censored] if the road is going to be rough. And, baby, it has been damn rough at times. But He was faithful and kept His word to carry me through and give me the strength and resources to make it through to the other side. He has never let me down.


I think you are not interpreting this in context to the rest of the Bible. He expects us to ask that HIS WILL be done. What if we ask him, "in His name," to kill our neighbor because we want him dead? Do you think God will strike our neighbor dead? If not, then why not since that seems to be the strict literal interpretation of that verse when taken out of context with the rest of the Bible.

Thanks, nottoday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The vanity of this is that hiding our 'secret identity' is energy-consuming ... leaving little self to love others.

Mel

What if we ask him, "in His name," to kill our neighbor because we want him dead? Do you think God will strike our neighbor dead? If not, then why not since that seems to be the strict literal interpretation of that verse when taken out of context with the rest of the Bible.

Elisha did. Cursed the foul youths in the Lord and God sent a she-bear to tear them to shreds.

A lieteral example. But I don't want a scripture debate Mel. You'd kill me, I'm a beginner.

I need to read and pray. Thanks ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

you're hopeless! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hope you are misunderstanding what is being said, and that you aren't really being told that prayer is not worthwhile. This question actually deserves a longer answer than I'll be able to give, but let me make a quick effort.

According to the Bible, when Adam was created he was given dominion over this planet. By sinning, he ceded his authority to another, and Satan has tried to claim it fully ever since. Even since Jesus, the second Adam, won the victory over Satan at the cross, and regained the rulership of this world, Satan still fights for human territory anywhere and everywhere he can. (And obviously with some good results, considering the condition of the world in which we live!) Before Moses was raised from the dead, the Bible says in Jude that Satan "disputed" over his body, since as ruler of this world ("the prince of the power of the air") he claimed Moses as his property, and his death as final. That he did not win this argument is evinced by Moses' appearance (with Elijah) to Jesus at the Transfiguration...but that didn't stop the devil from putting up a good fight over his resurrection at the time. And why shouldn't he have argued about it? Moses was a murderer, and a man of sometimes-uncontrolled temper. He'd had plenty of sins chalked up to his name during his lifetime. He should've been Satan's property, and lost forever...except that he'd sought divine forgiveness and had been pardoned. In Job 1 and 2, Satan is described as appearing in the councils of heaven as the official representative of this planet, taking his place among the other "sons of God" (which is what Adam is described as being) who were there representing their own worlds. He defiantly claims to God Himself, his rulership over this world. There are other examples of this, but these 2 should do for now.

My point is this: There is a war going on between God and Satan--the battleground the human heart; the objective, individual loyalty to one king or the other. In this conflict, God "plays" by the rules. Satan does not. God enters by invitation. Satan by force. Man's choices have said to God, "Keep out," and Satan fully intends that this should be true for each one of us. There are a number of texts that describe humans as "sold under sin," etc. If the Bible is true, we are Satan's lawful prey, his legal captives, and our condition is hopeless without God. But He doesn't come where He's not invited, so unless you ask Him, Satan is able to demand that He keep out. And God respects Satan's ownership. However, Satan cannot keep God out when His presence is requested...so asking becomes the key to every spiritual blessing we could ever want, or hope to have.

Having said that, we need to acknowledge that God sometimes says no, much in the same way that I'd refuse to give the Dervish a knife just because his 4-yr. old heart desires to have one. "No" IS an answer, which is something that is often easy for me to forget. So is "Maybe" or "Not right now." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Just because God didn't say yes to my prayer, and immediately, too, doesn't mean that I haven't been heard and answered.. Earthly parents often know best, a hard fact for a child to accept who's just had his great idea rejected and shot down. Our heavenly Father knows best, also, and sometimes His answers are every bit as hard for us (adult) earthly children to understand, since we may view things only from our own perspectives, and not from God's.

We are also told to pray for others. In my case, I have 2 sons whom I adore. Both have (temporarily!) lost their spiritual ways, although for different reasons, and in different ways. They don't have the wisdom or the good sense to prayer for themselves right now, and if left to their own devices, would be fully captive of an enemy the Bible describes as being like "a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." So I pray for them, and ask God to intervene in their lives in a way He would not legally be able to do, in this great controversy with Satan, if He were not invited. Do I see any results yet? No. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Is it discouraging? You bet. Excessively, in fact. Will I quit? Not as long as I live, or possess my mental marbles, whichever comes first.

This concept of intercessory prayer is a hard one for me, because for a lot of years I wondered, "Why pray? God knows everything already anyway. It's not like I'm going to bring up some new, previously-unconsidered fact that will change His mind." Learning about what I have just written changed all this for me, although sometimes it's very hard yet to maintain in the face of little or no visible progress and change. Still, Jesus prayed for His disciples. He instructed them to pray for each other. The Holy Spirit "Himself maketh intercession for us, with groanings which cannot be uttered." If praying is not worthwhile, there's certainly a lot of wasted instruction in the Bible telling us to "without ceasing" do something useless. "Men ought always to pray, and not to faint." That even includes those all-too-frequent times when fainting is the easiest thing to do, and very, very attractive to the depressed pray-er. I should know. If "fainting" in prayer were an art, I'd be known world-wide for my gallery exhibitions! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So don't give up. That's why God gave us teeth and toenails--so we can hang on till the very end! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

t&l

P.S. If you can come to undertand evil as a manifestation of the great controversy between Christ and Satan, I think you will find it much easier not to be destroyed by the wrong actions of others. It's certainly proved to be true for me. The great controversy is not between my husband and me. For that matter, it's not between any other person and me, either! The battle is always between Christ and Satan, waged on the battlefied of each human heart. And in this engagement, sometimes other people (innocent betrayed spouses and children, for example) get severely, even tragically wounded in the crossfire. For myself, I've come to accept that my getting hurt doesn't mean it's now MY battle, and I need to get in there and personally start waging war. The battle is still God's, and even if I've got a black eye, a bloody nose, and a few bullet holes, I'm learning to stand back and let Him fight it Himself, on a heavenly timetable, with heavenly weapons, and divine strategy. My part is to pray, as He has instructed me to do, and because I "hope for that [i] see not," to "with patience wait for it."

Thanks stormy ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have no intention of giving up. I was just trying to work out what I can expect if I 'lean on God' like the healed man at Gethsemane. I still don't know, but perhaps that's unknowable.

You can expect that sometimes He'll say, "Yes." Sometimes He'll say, "No." Sometimes it will sound like He's not saying anything at all. But He will always be with you. He already SAID that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

t&l

yes, i can relate to that. especially the part of if i were to be completely exposed for what i really am. i'm working on it though.

and yes, i have been betrayed in life in other ways.

pep, i just read this now...
and i don't really get that. even after you added
i mean, i do understand about how that mindset takes energy, leaving me less to use on loving others. i guess instead of the word vanity, i would of said this is being self-centered. is that another way of saying the same thing?

that reasoning is really what i have to focus on when i get into any self-beating up mood. i have to smack myself with a 2x4 and remind myself that i am spending more energy on myself than on others and that is not who i want to be anymore.

of course, sometimes it takes me a bit too long to knock it out but the more i recognize it, the easier it is becoming. i seem to be pretty good at stopping when i see that is what i am doing. sometimes it takes me too long to see it. maybe sometimes i don't want to see it too quickly cuz i selfishly want to spend my energy on me instead of others. of course, the energy spent on beating myself up isn't really doing anything constructive. if i'm going to choose to use energy on me, i might as well make it be something constructive

R O T F L M A O !!!!

Pep - you are great!

far

You know, it's quite exhaustifying keeping up with this thread. But worth it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bob Said:
LOL. So you'd like God to neatly define Himself for you, so you can plan your next twenty or thirty odd years of existence? I find that I am so much more often pleasantly surprised by God and His unexpected ways that I wouldn't want to slow Him down by having to draft me a 90 page thesis on our relationship delineating exactly what I can and cannot expect from him. That sounds oddly like a pre-nupt. Ick.


He does answer prayers. Sometimes the answer is "no." Hon, I can relate. I prayed, I begged God to not let my husband ever be in a tempting situation, because I knew he'd fail and cheat. I thought I was "praying a protective hedge around my marriage." Um, no. I was asking God to circumvent the free will of my husband and every other woman he came into contact with. Gee, I don't ask much, do I? If I'd spent as much energy openly asking my husband to seek counseling and to protect our marriage, laying down boundaries, etc. as I did asking God to do something He patently doesn't do, it might've made a difference. Maybe not, but I'll never know because I didn't try.

The fact is, I was asking God to do something supernaturally that I wasn't willing to exhaust all my own natural resources to accomplish, because I was scared. I was scared that if I confronted my husband about the way he disrespected me and our marriage, he would leave. I was possibly even more scared that he would simply say I wasn't worth that much effort of changing the way he behaved, and I could leave if I was going to insist on it. I was too scared of being called silly and jealous and overbearing and untrusting to declare boundaries that would've protected my marriage. I was too scared to confront my husband on his habit of "selective honesty." I gambled that maybe he would never find himself tempted, and I lost. Plain and simple.

Bob, hon, that is a bit overgeneralizing, ain't it? "If God isn't going to answer yes every time I ask for something I think is reasonable and good and within His will; if I can't depend on knowing His will as well as He does to ask for only what I'll get, then I'm not going to bother asking."

Do you think if you stamp your foot while saying that, it will have more impact on the Almighty?

Ask for everything (you'll probably get at least some of it--God loves to give good gifts to His children), but put your hope and sense of well-being in ONE thing.

pepperband said:

Been reading a bit of Bradshaw, Pep?


Vanity is being concerned with outward appearances above inner character. The attitude you quoted makes maintaining that attractive outer shell of personality an emotional survival imperative. You have no resources left to develop your inner character, much less authentic relationships with others. You become like a woman so concerned with maintained a flawlessly decorated and maintained home that you can't ever have anyone over.

Java


I was thinking more in line of biblical vanities, since this thread has gone in that direction.

Biblical vanity, I think, is a falseness ... as in everything that is not Godliness.

And the vanity of shameful thinking is that we feel ashamed about being who we are ... but God has made us so we are ashamed of God's work .... and this is vanity.

I like your example of the flawlessly cleaned home ....

I guess my vanity does not overflow to my home as it is far from flawlessly clean! LOL

I see what you mean, Pep. What amazes me is the more I show of my "authentic self" to people the more comfortable I am in my own skin. I said to my WH last night "I am comfortable with who and what I am" and I meant it! Guess I didn't realize through this painful process..especially since I was "outed" last year how much I have been allowed to be just ~me~

FL


I donno ... the phrase 'self-centered' doesn't work the same way for me ... in part because there are times that being self-centered or self-serving is desireable!

But 'vanity' is more of a false reality than is genuine care and concern of the self.

HI PEP:

How was your book club meeting?

What are you reading next?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

BOB:

I found this statement from you where you stated, in other words, that you "leaned" on GOD and HE answered your "prayer".... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />



You did this on your own..without "leaning in his arms"? Sounds like you were at the gates of HE##..to me...

from wiktionary:


I was reminded of something I just read recently in "Care of the Soul" by Thomas Moore, about narcissism. Something about seeing a vision of "yourself as other" being the cure for narcissism. When Narcissus saw his reflection in the water, he didn't know it was himself. He saw something unexpected and worthwhile there. Narcissus was egotistical and narcissistic before that--but his self-love was shallow and based on a shallow and pedestrian view of himself. Before he saw himself in the pool, he's described as "like a marble statue," cold and hard. To move to authentic self-love, he had to see past his usual self-image to something deeper and more nebulous and mysterious.

I related to that a great deal. At the point in my life where I was very shame-bound, my image of myself was very rigid and almost black-and-white cartoonish. As I've gotten more "real" with myself and others, and accepted myself more, I find that my self-image is fuzzier, softer, more indistinct, with more room for interpretation. Like an impressionist painting. Or better yet, a painting in process. The final say on who I am hasn't been made yet. The "me" that I was ashamed of wasn't God's workmanship. It was a collage I pasted together from what other people told me about myself. God's workmanship is infinitely more subtle and layered and mysterious. Some people may like it and others may not, but it's good work.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Or perhaps I've just become a raving egomaniac. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

wonderful ... what I was trying to convey

thanks

REALLY great ... it's mostly about the FOOD <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


I am reading The Nature Of Water And Air ... coz I am catching up with them ... I just joined the group.

The rest are reading In Her Shoes ... coz I already read it ... then we'll all be caught up

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mimi

I have a staggeringly wonderful testomony. I have had doubts whispered into my ear for weeks now and I hadn't noticed.

Its an attack. Godly husbands are a threat to satan. he tried a nuke assualt on me and failed, so now he sends me 'grima wormtingue". Hah ! won't work either !

I reread my testimony post earlier to remind myself of the wonderful blessings and TRANSFORMATION I was blessed with over my trial.

My friend and mentor RIF is also under attack rght now. We're praying together against the rulers and principalities that would inhibit our faith and effectiveness right now.

It is my right as Christ's child to live ABUNDANTLY and VICTORIOUSLY and I am intending to do JUST THAT.

pepperband: Funny that you and FF are discussing this right now, as I have spent the last week trying to get my hands on a copy of C.S. Lewis' "Till We Have Faces," which deals allegorically with some of the same stuff.

PEP:

Interesting that we are speaking of BOOK CLUBS amidst the discussion of stuff about searching for our "authentic self".

I actually started a book club which ran successfully for several years. Did my church groups, too and stuff...I got caught up more into that social scene than I did my marriage..
Alot of those relationships with folks in the groups proved to be superficial-not authentic. That period of being social was new for me.. I THINK I was trying to be someone who I am not...LIKE MY MOTHER....who became VERY PLEASED with me during that time period...

I am so much more HAPPY now with my QUIET life with my H..We had such a great, SWEET weekend just with EACH OTHER...That's the way it was for most of our MARRIAGE and most of my life really..I was raised like an ONLY CHILD...entertaining myself READING MY BOOKS..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Who is the REAL ME? I don't really know...

I'm not sure if I'm an INTROVERT or an EXTROVERT...

I do feel more "AUTHENTIC" now...

H feels that I was trying to be someone that I was not and was pushing him to do the same...He was trying to please me...

I know that he has to own his part in this scenario..

I'm THINKING about all of this...

STILL LEARNING AND GROWING like all of us here....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

My H's A was an answer to prayer that I did not expect. Not that God 'made him do it', because of course God doesn't MAKE us do anything, be it good or bad.

And I do wonder that if I had prayed for that hedge of protection, if I might have become alert to the danger in time to prevent it. I'll never know, but still do not blame myself for the choice of someone else.

As I saw my H wander farther and farther from his faith in God, I prayed many times, "Lord, please do whatever you have to do to save him. Even if he must die, I just want him in heaven. I do not withhold my own life, either. Please just save him."

I did not know that the answer would be, "He will be saved, and neither of you will die, although you might wish for a while that you had."

Most of us would agree that God does not save us against our choices, but the closer we are to rock bottom, the closer we are to reaching out to Him. When we do, He is waiting to pour out heaven's richest blessings on us, and the strength to endure our trials.

I am trying very hard to remember this as more and more anger and resentment begin to surface. (Grima Wormtongue has been busy at my house, too.) God listened patiently (and silently, as far as I could tell) to my prayers for my H's salvation, knowing that the time would come when He would have the opportunity to step in and work, and that the outcome would be a new spirituality in our house.

Most days I remember to be grateful.

OK..I'm missing something here!

Who the heck is GRIMA WORMTONGUE?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

WORMTONGUE - isn't he from Harry Potter???

oh wait that is WORMTAIL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mimi

the funny thing about this group ... except for me, all are AA members! They know my H from meetings, and one of the women really took a shine to me when we met at an AA social event ... and they invited me in. So we are a SOBER bunch ... one is a lesbian, another is a woman who recently lost 60 pounds and weighs every piece of food on a little scale she brings,another who is a retired movie stunt woman with some good stories to tell, another who is really wealthy, another who is very very political and is married to a politician ... interesting mix.

Grima Wormtongue is from Lord of the Rings. He was the oily creep who worked on the old king of Rohan to perusade him that he was weak and powerless, so that Wormtongue could have the power.

Spot the swot, what?

OH Boy, my daughter would be SOOOO disapointed in me for not knowing that.

i was just being silly by bringing up wormtail.

it's one of those days where you look for any thing to smile about. perhaps no one else smiled, but i did when i wrote it.

my head is being too serious today.

then speak from the other end

LOl

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL, that was last night.... i don't know what i ate but, boy was it noisy later, and stinky too.

is that too much info??

i really hate my signature line. but i figure it is helpful to others to "know" who they are talking too.

i need to change it somehow though. anyone want to give suggestions? i still want it to be accurate and informational... i think maybe i just need to shorten it, take out some of the details...

or maybe i need to add a line to the end.... about who i am today.... instead of just showing the past.

i'm only two days from 1yr. i don't know if my BH knows that or not. in either case, I'm going to be nice to myself that day and even nicer to him.

why?

either your points are valid or they aren't

I decided a long time ago not to wear any "recovered betrayed wife" initials behind my name ...



let's make someting up for you

like

FL ... a WIP

"work in progress"

LOL

PRFTA

phoenix rising from the ashes

pep, is crying bad? just that little exchange we had finally put me over the edge and brought tears.

FF says to celebrate the good i have done this past year. look at the it as one complete year since i did a really significant thing by confessing. i've not been anywhere near perfect throughout the year, but i would agree i've done ok.

but it's so hard not to feel so bad about all the destruction i have caused throughout my life. and that feeling is right on the fringe of being too overwhelming for me to keep under control right now.

and i feel so weak for being so fragile so often.

feeling bad only goes so far ... after that has expired it is no longer time to feel bad except for wasting time feeling bad

life is to live

look at your life as a feast

are you going to stick your finger down your throat or are you going to enjoy?

being fragile can be beautiful

like art ...

and all that sounds so fabulous on paper (ok, on this screen) but try asking my BH if he agrees.

although i certainly agree with the part that says, it's a waste of time because it does not accomplish anything constructive. i'll give you that one.

ok, i have to convince myself to stop focusing on my bad, don't i?

no one but me can do that.

FL, I see you as a beautiful flower that is slowly opening up. Or perhaps a butterfly in her cocoon. Fragile but strong.

Hi FF, thanks, i'm heading out for the day. today was an early start due to lab time. going home to do math homework with my son!! kinda a date we seem to be having everyday this year. and i actually have a fun activity planned for tonight, which is good and bad, good cuz it will be fun, kids are coming with, bad cuz it leaves H home on his own, not that he hates it, we just have not had much time together lately.

nite pep, thanks for being around too.

Glad I'm lurking today so that I can see this exchange.

I can totally relate to FinallyLearning's feelings. I have felt this way for a long time.

Pepperband, I like what you said to her. It is what I needed to hear today, too.

This is an interesting thread... the meandering journey it's taken...

"under construction"

I like it !

keep THIS for awhile <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

that's why I never mind threadjacking coz there is usually a serendipitous surprize when one gets lost from the main highway

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think, most of the time, Satan enters because of our lazyness. We prefer instant gratification over slow cooked rewards.

Perhaps "force" wasn't the best word. Didn't mean to imply that he comes at us with machine guns, bazookas, tanks, machetes, or battering rams. Or a nuclear device. Although they ARE tools that can be used, if appropriate. Sneaky works just fine, too, for most of us, most of the time. I just meant that he doesn't wait to be invited, and doesn't care whether or not he's welcome. Human laziness helps, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

t&l

i like it too, i will keep it for a while.

I AGREE!!!


Hi New_Beginning,

time for us to stop, don't ya think?? time to live happily instead.