Mel

What if we ask him, "in His name," to kill our neighbor because we want him dead? Do you think God will strike our neighbor dead? If not, then why not since that seems to be the strict literal interpretation of that verse when taken out of context with the rest of the Bible.

Elisha did. Cursed the foul youths in the Lord and God sent a she-bear to tear them to shreds.

A lieteral example. But I don't want a scripture debate Mel. You'd kill me, I'm a beginner.

I need to read and pray. Thanks ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

you're hopeless! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hope you are misunderstanding what is being said, and that you aren't really being told that prayer is not worthwhile. This question actually deserves a longer answer than I'll be able to give, but let me make a quick effort.

According to the Bible, when Adam was created he was given dominion over this planet. By sinning, he ceded his authority to another, and Satan has tried to claim it fully ever since. Even since Jesus, the second Adam, won the victory over Satan at the cross, and regained the rulership of this world, Satan still fights for human territory anywhere and everywhere he can. (And obviously with some good results, considering the condition of the world in which we live!) Before Moses was raised from the dead, the Bible says in Jude that Satan "disputed" over his body, since as ruler of this world ("the prince of the power of the air") he claimed Moses as his property, and his death as final. That he did not win this argument is evinced by Moses' appearance (with Elijah) to Jesus at the Transfiguration...but that didn't stop the devil from putting up a good fight over his resurrection at the time. And why shouldn't he have argued about it? Moses was a murderer, and a man of sometimes-uncontrolled temper. He'd had plenty of sins chalked up to his name during his lifetime. He should've been Satan's property, and lost forever...except that he'd sought divine forgiveness and had been pardoned. In Job 1 and 2, Satan is described as appearing in the councils of heaven as the official representative of this planet, taking his place among the other "sons of God" (which is what Adam is described as being) who were there representing their own worlds. He defiantly claims to God Himself, his rulership over this world. There are other examples of this, but these 2 should do for now.

My point is this: There is a war going on between God and Satan--the battleground the human heart; the objective, individual loyalty to one king or the other. In this conflict, God "plays" by the rules. Satan does not. God enters by invitation. Satan by force. Man's choices have said to God, "Keep out," and Satan fully intends that this should be true for each one of us. There are a number of texts that describe humans as "sold under sin," etc. If the Bible is true, we are Satan's lawful prey, his legal captives, and our condition is hopeless without God. But He doesn't come where He's not invited, so unless you ask Him, Satan is able to demand that He keep out. And God respects Satan's ownership. However, Satan cannot keep God out when His presence is requested...so asking becomes the key to every spiritual blessing we could ever want, or hope to have.

Having said that, we need to acknowledge that God sometimes says no, much in the same way that I'd refuse to give the Dervish a knife just because his 4-yr. old heart desires to have one. "No" IS an answer, which is something that is often easy for me to forget. So is "Maybe" or "Not right now." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Just because God didn't say yes to my prayer, and immediately, too, doesn't mean that I haven't been heard and answered.. Earthly parents often know best, a hard fact for a child to accept who's just had his great idea rejected and shot down. Our heavenly Father knows best, also, and sometimes His answers are every bit as hard for us (adult) earthly children to understand, since we may view things only from our own perspectives, and not from God's.

We are also told to pray for others. In my case, I have 2 sons whom I adore. Both have (temporarily!) lost their spiritual ways, although for different reasons, and in different ways. They don't have the wisdom or the good sense to prayer for themselves right now, and if left to their own devices, would be fully captive of an enemy the Bible describes as being like "a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." So I pray for them, and ask God to intervene in their lives in a way He would not legally be able to do, in this great controversy with Satan, if He were not invited. Do I see any results yet? No. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Is it discouraging? You bet. Excessively, in fact. Will I quit? Not as long as I live, or possess my mental marbles, whichever comes first.

This concept of intercessory prayer is a hard one for me, because for a lot of years I wondered, "Why pray? God knows everything already anyway. It's not like I'm going to bring up some new, previously-unconsidered fact that will change His mind." Learning about what I have just written changed all this for me, although sometimes it's very hard yet to maintain in the face of little or no visible progress and change. Still, Jesus prayed for His disciples. He instructed them to pray for each other. The Holy Spirit "Himself maketh intercession for us, with groanings which cannot be uttered." If praying is not worthwhile, there's certainly a lot of wasted instruction in the Bible telling us to "without ceasing" do something useless. "Men ought always to pray, and not to faint." That even includes those all-too-frequent times when fainting is the easiest thing to do, and very, very attractive to the depressed pray-er. I should know. If "fainting" in prayer were an art, I'd be known world-wide for my gallery exhibitions! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So don't give up. That's why God gave us teeth and toenails--so we can hang on till the very end! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

t&l

P.S. If you can come to undertand evil as a manifestation of the great controversy between Christ and Satan, I think you will find it much easier not to be destroyed by the wrong actions of others. It's certainly proved to be true for me. The great controversy is not between my husband and me. For that matter, it's not between any other person and me, either! The battle is always between Christ and Satan, waged on the battlefied of each human heart. And in this engagement, sometimes other people (innocent betrayed spouses and children, for example) get severely, even tragically wounded in the crossfire. For myself, I've come to accept that my getting hurt doesn't mean it's now MY battle, and I need to get in there and personally start waging war. The battle is still God's, and even if I've got a black eye, a bloody nose, and a few bullet holes, I'm learning to stand back and let Him fight it Himself, on a heavenly timetable, with heavenly weapons, and divine strategy. My part is to pray, as He has instructed me to do, and because I "hope for that [i] see not," to "with patience wait for it."

Thanks stormy ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have no intention of giving up. I was just trying to work out what I can expect if I 'lean on God' like the healed man at Gethsemane. I still don't know, but perhaps that's unknowable.

You can expect that sometimes He'll say, "Yes." Sometimes He'll say, "No." Sometimes it will sound like He's not saying anything at all. But He will always be with you. He already SAID that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

t&l

yes, i can relate to that. especially the part of if i were to be completely exposed for what i really am. i'm working on it though.

and yes, i have been betrayed in life in other ways.

pep, i just read this now...
and i don't really get that. even after you added
i mean, i do understand about how that mindset takes energy, leaving me less to use on loving others. i guess instead of the word vanity, i would of said this is being self-centered. is that another way of saying the same thing?

that reasoning is really what i have to focus on when i get into any self-beating up mood. i have to smack myself with a 2x4 and remind myself that i am spending more energy on myself than on others and that is not who i want to be anymore.

of course, sometimes it takes me a bit too long to knock it out but the more i recognize it, the easier it is becoming. i seem to be pretty good at stopping when i see that is what i am doing. sometimes it takes me too long to see it. maybe sometimes i don't want to see it too quickly cuz i selfishly want to spend my energy on me instead of others. of course, the energy spent on beating myself up isn't really doing anything constructive. if i'm going to choose to use energy on me, i might as well make it be something constructive

R O T F L M A O !!!!

Pep - you are great!

far

You know, it's quite exhaustifying keeping up with this thread. But worth it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bob Said:
LOL. So you'd like God to neatly define Himself for you, so you can plan your next twenty or thirty odd years of existence? I find that I am so much more often pleasantly surprised by God and His unexpected ways that I wouldn't want to slow Him down by having to draft me a 90 page thesis on our relationship delineating exactly what I can and cannot expect from him. That sounds oddly like a pre-nupt. Ick.


He does answer prayers. Sometimes the answer is "no." Hon, I can relate. I prayed, I begged God to not let my husband ever be in a tempting situation, because I knew he'd fail and cheat. I thought I was "praying a protective hedge around my marriage." Um, no. I was asking God to circumvent the free will of my husband and every other woman he came into contact with. Gee, I don't ask much, do I? If I'd spent as much energy openly asking my husband to seek counseling and to protect our marriage, laying down boundaries, etc. as I did asking God to do something He patently doesn't do, it might've made a difference. Maybe not, but I'll never know because I didn't try.

The fact is, I was asking God to do something supernaturally that I wasn't willing to exhaust all my own natural resources to accomplish, because I was scared. I was scared that if I confronted my husband about the way he disrespected me and our marriage, he would leave. I was possibly even more scared that he would simply say I wasn't worth that much effort of changing the way he behaved, and I could leave if I was going to insist on it. I was too scared of being called silly and jealous and overbearing and untrusting to declare boundaries that would've protected my marriage. I was too scared to confront my husband on his habit of "selective honesty." I gambled that maybe he would never find himself tempted, and I lost. Plain and simple.

Bob, hon, that is a bit overgeneralizing, ain't it? "If God isn't going to answer yes every time I ask for something I think is reasonable and good and within His will; if I can't depend on knowing His will as well as He does to ask for only what I'll get, then I'm not going to bother asking."

Do you think if you stamp your foot while saying that, it will have more impact on the Almighty?

Ask for everything (you'll probably get at least some of it--God loves to give good gifts to His children), but put your hope and sense of well-being in ONE thing.

pepperband said:

Been reading a bit of Bradshaw, Pep?


Vanity is being concerned with outward appearances above inner character. The attitude you quoted makes maintaining that attractive outer shell of personality an emotional survival imperative. You have no resources left to develop your inner character, much less authentic relationships with others. You become like a woman so concerned with maintained a flawlessly decorated and maintained home that you can't ever have anyone over.

Java


I was thinking more in line of biblical vanities, since this thread has gone in that direction.

Biblical vanity, I think, is a falseness ... as in everything that is not Godliness.

And the vanity of shameful thinking is that we feel ashamed about being who we are ... but God has made us so we are ashamed of God's work .... and this is vanity.

I like your example of the flawlessly cleaned home ....

I guess my vanity does not overflow to my home as it is far from flawlessly clean! LOL

I see what you mean, Pep. What amazes me is the more I show of my "authentic self" to people the more comfortable I am in my own skin. I said to my WH last night "I am comfortable with who and what I am" and I meant it! Guess I didn't realize through this painful process..especially since I was "outed" last year how much I have been allowed to be just ~me~

FL


I donno ... the phrase 'self-centered' doesn't work the same way for me ... in part because there are times that being self-centered or self-serving is desireable!

But 'vanity' is more of a false reality than is genuine care and concern of the self.

HI PEP:

How was your book club meeting?

What are you reading next?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

BOB:

I found this statement from you where you stated, in other words, that you "leaned" on GOD and HE answered your "prayer".... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />



You did this on your own..without "leaning in his arms"? Sounds like you were at the gates of HE##..to me...

from wiktionary:


I was reminded of something I just read recently in "Care of the Soul" by Thomas Moore, about narcissism. Something about seeing a vision of "yourself as other" being the cure for narcissism. When Narcissus saw his reflection in the water, he didn't know it was himself. He saw something unexpected and worthwhile there. Narcissus was egotistical and narcissistic before that--but his self-love was shallow and based on a shallow and pedestrian view of himself. Before he saw himself in the pool, he's described as "like a marble statue," cold and hard. To move to authentic self-love, he had to see past his usual self-image to something deeper and more nebulous and mysterious.

I related to that a great deal. At the point in my life where I was very shame-bound, my image of myself was very rigid and almost black-and-white cartoonish. As I've gotten more "real" with myself and others, and accepted myself more, I find that my self-image is fuzzier, softer, more indistinct, with more room for interpretation. Like an impressionist painting. Or better yet, a painting in process. The final say on who I am hasn't been made yet. The "me" that I was ashamed of wasn't God's workmanship. It was a collage I pasted together from what other people told me about myself. God's workmanship is infinitely more subtle and layered and mysterious. Some people may like it and others may not, but it's good work.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Or perhaps I've just become a raving egomaniac. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

wonderful ... what I was trying to convey

thanks

REALLY great ... it's mostly about the FOOD <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


I am reading The Nature Of Water And Air ... coz I am catching up with them ... I just joined the group.

The rest are reading In Her Shoes ... coz I already read it ... then we'll all be caught up

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mimi

I have a staggeringly wonderful testomony. I have had doubts whispered into my ear for weeks now and I hadn't noticed.

Its an attack. Godly husbands are a threat to satan. he tried a nuke assualt on me and failed, so now he sends me 'grima wormtingue". Hah ! won't work either !

I reread my testimony post earlier to remind myself of the wonderful blessings and TRANSFORMATION I was blessed with over my trial.

My friend and mentor RIF is also under attack rght now. We're praying together against the rulers and principalities that would inhibit our faith and effectiveness right now.

It is my right as Christ's child to live ABUNDANTLY and VICTORIOUSLY and I am intending to do JUST THAT.

pepperband: Funny that you and FF are discussing this right now, as I have spent the last week trying to get my hands on a copy of C.S. Lewis' "Till We Have Faces," which deals allegorically with some of the same stuff.

PEP:

Interesting that we are speaking of BOOK CLUBS amidst the discussion of stuff about searching for our "authentic self".

I actually started a book club which ran successfully for several years. Did my church groups, too and stuff...I got caught up more into that social scene than I did my marriage..
Alot of those relationships with folks in the groups proved to be superficial-not authentic. That period of being social was new for me.. I THINK I was trying to be someone who I am not...LIKE MY MOTHER....who became VERY PLEASED with me during that time period...

I am so much more HAPPY now with my QUIET life with my H..We had such a great, SWEET weekend just with EACH OTHER...That's the way it was for most of our MARRIAGE and most of my life really..I was raised like an ONLY CHILD...entertaining myself READING MY BOOKS..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Who is the REAL ME? I don't really know...

I'm not sure if I'm an INTROVERT or an EXTROVERT...

I do feel more "AUTHENTIC" now...

H feels that I was trying to be someone that I was not and was pushing him to do the same...He was trying to please me...

I know that he has to own his part in this scenario..

I'm THINKING about all of this...

STILL LEARNING AND GROWING like all of us here....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />