OK, I have problems here…… I cannot seem to 100% eliminate AO’s on my part. I am trying. Not that this is an excuse, but d-day was 10 weeks ago, recovery isn’t going so well, FWW is still distant… these problems are causing me so much frustration and despair that AO’s just “happen” when we discuss things, relationship related or not.

How concerning should it be to me that FWW still just doesn’t seem very “heartbroken” about what she has done? I mean, she tells me she is sorry for how bad she hurt me, how she knows it was a “horrible thing”, but I NEVER see her feeling sad or guilty for what she has done. Because of the state of our marriage, and what she has done to me, I shed a few tears multiple times a day. I tell her how I feel, so she knows my emotions. She criticizes me when I become emotional. If she is sorry for what she has done to me and wants to reconcile the marriage, then when I am emotional about it couldn’t I at least expect her to “comfort” me instead of telling me I need to control my emotions and that “this is not appealing”.

Again, I am having a hard time controlling my AO’s. But she seems to condition any efforts on her part entirely upon whether I am controlling my negative behaviors, such as AO’s.
I ask her to help me eliminate AO’s and other negative behaviors. She tells me it is not her responsibility to change them, that I have done this that and the other in my life to show that I have strength of will so I could eliminate my negative behaviors on my own if I really wanted to.

My days are all the same. I get up and leave for work before anyone else in the house is awake. I work all day in a stressful environment where I am multi-tasked to the Nth degree, frequently throughout the day I am overwhelmed with emotions of despair, depression, hopelessness, and a feeling of being totally alone. Frequently, I never hear from FWW during the day about what she is doing, where she is at, etc….
I come home from work (I always call when I start my drive home to let her know when to expect me or if I am going to stop anywhere on my way home (a 45 minute commute on heavy freeway traffic)). When I get home her response to me is based upon however I have been acting lately. If I have had an AO recently, I get very little if any reception other than a cool “hi”. We may or may not talk the rest of the evening. She then usually goes to bed early saying she is worn out, not feeling good, etc…
In general I feel that I have to tiptoe around her, because if I do something that is one of my “negative behaviors”, as defined by her, then she withdraws even more.



It is so frustrating for me. Since d-day, everything has flip-flopped. The first week after d-day she was very remorseful and showed the “heartbroken” feelings, asking me to not divorce her, asking me to give her a chance to make it up to me, etc, etc…
Since then, she has reversed roles, now it is me that has to change all of my negative behaviors to convince her to stay. Everything to do with reconciliation is my burden to do or not to do. She sees it as her having been a very good person and wife for 11yrs, 11 months. Then she did a “horrible thing” that was totally out of character for her. Now, the A “isn’t a factor in our marriage anymore”, she is back in character, so why does she need to change anything?

So I am left with the stress of a job and trying to work it in my current emotional state, the stress of the devastation the A has done to me, the stress of not having my wife there to give me emotional support, and the stress of being made to feel that I need to eliminate 100% of my negative behaviors NOW for the marriage to survive.
In total, they all make me feel that I am up against insurmountable odds.

I need HER to step up and help me with all of this. But she thinks I should be the “strong one” etc, etc…. and that I should be there to support her. I do want to be there to support her, but I need support too.

I told her last night that she clearly just doesn’t understand how hard it is to reconcile in my mind the knowledge that 1) I love her deeply, even after all of this; 2) the person I love is the one who has hurt me worse than anyone else in this world could.
It is so hard for these two thoughts to co-exist. I told her that I don’t know how to deal with this. She said “I don’t think you can”. Wow, thanks for that “positive” message of hope.
I know one way that I could, for her to step up and make me feel like she does want this marriage to make it, that she does want to be with me. I know that “want” is a long way from it actually happening, many things need to be resolved on BOTH sides to have the mutually happy marriage. But without the “want” there is no chance of it happening.

When is love just not enough to save a marriage?

Hello, thanks for logging in. I (and I assume many others) have been wondering about you. I am sorry to hear things are not going well.

Please consider calling the 'guy that wrote the book'. I really think you need a pro's assistance in sorting all this out. It is not a D-I-Y project. And, from reading reports of those that have worked with the Harleys, they are very good at getting the 'reluctant' spouse on board.

TD - I know exactly how you feel. I am in the same position with my FWW. Although she is not living at home.

First off, or you in MC? This can help and has been very helpful for me controlling my AO's. I am working with SH. We have started off with the EN questionaire. Now, my FWW has to develop a plan to meet my top EN's. I have to develop one to meet hers.

I asked SH the question, does my FWW seem very sincere about all this and why does she seem to not be concerned about all that she has done. His answer, I'm not worried about her being sincere right now, we want compliance. Does she come to the MC sessions, does she develop the plan, etc. He told me to focus on my part of the equation. No LB's, meet her EN's, attract her back, court her, no R talk. Accept that her part is similar, but is going to move at a different pace. Like my FWW, your FWW has a goal of making the M work, but just can't see how it is possible. You have the same goal. But the difference is you can see how it is possible. With every LB, you make it harder for her to see that.

So, I don't know if you can get into some MC, but I think some of the points are valid.

No more LB's
Execute your plan
Meet her EN's
Get MC if you can and let FWW develop a plan.
Be patient and accept that it is going to take FWW a little longer.
Once she sees how it is possible, it will get better quickly, then move up and down.

Right now, its about giving her hope.

I suspect resentment is fueling your AO. Do you see how your expectation that she feel a certain way is causing this anger?

Saying someone should feel a certain way is a DJ. You may be hurt by what she did, but it's disrespectful to say she SHOULD express a certain level of remorse.

My suggestion is to let go of the expectation and focus on what you are doing.

When you find yourself focusing on her and things that cause resentment, replace those thoughts with thoughts of what you should be doing, a need you can meet that she wants met, etc.

HTH,

T

Ditto what GHNL said. If you can talk to SH it will be well worth the money. Call him first, you don't need your FWW to come to the first session. He can help you get your FWW to join in.

TD -

Calling the Harley's is always a good idea...

But if your wife is not willing to make a true effort, then you are left with one thing. Improving yourself. You can change things to make your life happier. Take a look at the 180 list. Pick a few things that will be 'different from the normal routine.

Join a healthclub and start working out. That will help with the stress at work and AO's at home. Plan some fun on the weekends. Take the kids to a movie - leave W at home telling her it's her break time. Change, change change!

What's the old saying? How can we expect different results when the actions stay the same? It may seem selfish, but concentrate on you more than the marriage. A happier Tired Dad will be more attractive and easier to rebuild a realtionship with. That's really a big part of Harley's Plan A.

I struggled for 3-6 months until I finally gave up trying to change everyone in my world except me. I have true control over just me. Not my W, not my friends, and not people at work. When I truly accepted that mindset, my anger left, my frown turned to grins, and I quit obsessing on my marriage problems. All of a sudden, I knew that if my marriage failed I was going to be OK. My kids were going to be OK. I still wanted my marriage to work, but not at the expense of my sanity and happiness.

I hope this helps in some way... Blessing to you and your family.

Gib

Hve you read Torn Asunder? It's a great book. It also explains how many FWS will not show their emotion until their BS's are okay - that they must stay strong until they know you are better, then it's their turn to greive- it could be she is doing this.

Also - people show remorse in different ways - and you can't expect her to show it in a manner that I would show it, or you would show it. My H shows very little remorse -except I know he is very sorry and guilty...but something in him wont let him break down and really show me that - but I know that about him. And so I accept what he can show me for remorse - and he makes up for it in love and affection.


This is tough - as a WS my H was fll of AO all the time, and very very rude ones - they hurt. I took them - but would get so mad at him, and we fought - I thought how long do I have to put up with these -but at this point I was out of the fog.

At this point - i think your wife might still be in the fog and not want the marriage and be missing OM - and so your AO hurt her and further justify why she should stay. If you are able to learn to express how you are feeling without attacking or being spiteful, and ask her to hold you - then maybe that could help you guys.


Have you gone back and read any of Bob Pure's thread- his wife was alot like this when she started recovery - and he had a very long road of learning to control AO, and work on how he treats his wife...and bit by bit, his wife came around...and it was almost a year until he got a deep heartfelt I am so sorry!!! It may be you have to become a bob Pure.....

rprynne,

Just a quick thought... something my mother-in-law told my fww...

"As long as you are not living at home with your husband, you are not working on your marriage."

You may be working on yourselves, but, you aren't working on your marriage....that should be something you consider.

T_D, a couple of thoughts...

1.) I think, and I hope some here will correct me if this is unlikely, that your W is "hedging her bets". I.e., she may have the intention of working on the marriage, but she isn't fully committed yet because she doesn't really believe it can work out and not go back to the way it was before.

In the past, you've sort of been "hedging your bets" as well, not willing to fully commit because of fear of getting hurt again. Do you think she might be doing the same? And do any of the GQII veterans here think this sounds likely?



2.) The above quote makes me wonder if she is looking for you to "be a hero" and maybe rescue her from the situation she has created. Does this sound likely to anyone here?

3.) Your wife showed remorse right after d-day, when she posted here briefly. Yet, as you say above, she does not now show that remorse, and has put all the emphasis back on you. I have a couple of theories about why that is, but with no experience with dealing with affairs (as I am a regular Emotional Needs Forum poster), I have no idea how likely any of them are. If any GQII regulars could chime in about the likelihood of any of the following...

a.) She could still be in contact with OM. That would be
feeding a sense of entitlement and disrupting her ability to work at rebuilding the marriage or to empathize with the way you feel.

b.) She is missing the ENs that OM filled and that she still won't let you fill, and she is angry at you because of it.

c.) From what I've read, most WS's feel very little remorse until much later in the recovery process. This could simply be normal behavior.

d.) She could be so guilt-ridden about the A that she tries like heck not to think about it, and she tries like heck to deal with the guilt by shifting as much of the blame as possible onto you.



I think that as long as you have some love for her, and as long as she is willing to work on the marriage (with or without any passion behind that commitement, at this stage) - and as long as she stays away from OM - than there is hope.

Hello again, TD


Have you considered behavioral counselling? Anger management? There may be strategies you can implement to help with this.


Perhaps she feels somewhat justified for having the affair. Obviously there were problems in your relationship before it happened. Perhaps she blames you for that or feels that there were problems before that you still need to change.


This sounds like depression, TD. Rightfully so. Are you receiving treatment from a doctor? Get that in check. You may find that your emotions and your AOs are less of a problem once you are dealing with your depression.



Maybe you cannot. Counselling and treatment for your depression may help.


Do you feel there are things she needs to change? Will she join you in counselling?

Hang in there, TD. You're in the worst spot now. It will get better.


Mrs. W8ing

RookKev - Its certainly something I'd consider.

But, I don't think I agree with the premise.

Do I have to be living with my FWW to be considered working on the M? No.

Is that going to be a requirement for successful recovery? Yes.

That said, I realize the importance of cohabitation. FWW is supposed to be moving back in on Mon.

bump

T_D



Just how often to you pound this message home? It seems some of your anger might be driven by the fact that she is not feeling the depth of pain that you are. You seem to keep reminding her about something that she cannot go back and change.

Your mood swings are LBs. Sadly, men are supposed to suck it up. Tearing up regularly is 'usually' not considered attractive. Wanting to be 'comforted' is usually not considered attractive. Certainly, your AOs are not attractive.

You seem to want her to feel guilt and pain. Not gonna happen...at least not on your terms.

She wants you to reduce negative behaviors so that she is more attracted to you and therefore more inclined to begin marriage building. Sounds doable.

Your behavior is your responsibility, not your Ws. It's up to you to decide when you are ready to heal.

Hey Tired_Dad, Glad you are back. Please stay on the board here, it will do you a lot of good....even when you think you are being attacked. Which is gonna happen.

When you start to feel attacked, remember, people don't generally waste time on somebody they don't think is worth it.

OK, As I said way back that you and I are on very much the same paths, only you are months behind me, or I'm months ahead, whichever. No affair in my sitch, but the withdrawal and blaming is all the same.

More importantly the AO's and expecting W to engage is all the same.

So, I'll just get you up-to-date on me, and you can decide if it would help you.

On June 1 I moved out you'll recall. I had been eliminating a lot of LBs and meeting EN's for 8 months prior but I was still doing a couple of key things that were singular LBs that overwhelmed anything positive that I was doing. What were those?
a) I didn't know how to have a conversation without being aggressive and blameful.
b) Angry Outbursts when things didn't go my way in the conversation.
c) Insisting on R talk when she just wanted some peace and quiet.
d) Although reduced, still sulking and withdrawing.

Since June 1, I've read a couple of books that are non relationship books that I think can help you alot.

'People Skills' - Read ch 8 first, then go back and read the whole book.
'Non-violent communication'
'Crucial Conversations'

Once you are a better communicator, your AO's will decrease DRAMATICALLY. I can't recommend this enough. Learning to communicate and get my point across and be heard DRAMATICALLY reduced my AO's. I could talk ON and ON about this topic and probably will in later days.

One last time...drop the R books...start reading communication books.

Another great book was 'What's so amazing about grace?'. I realized that I was always an eye for an eye kind of guy, if you were nice to me, I'm nice to you. That's the definition of GRACELESS. If you see yourself in that statement then read this book, it was like getting hit w/ a 2x4. I live my life both at work and at home with much more grace these days. But, I'm definitely a work in progress.

At this point I've got a handle on most AO's. I've had about 1/month since June; and they aren't emotionally at the same level as they were. And, I'm communicating better. Not perfectly, but better. When I know what I want to talk about it goes much better than when W surprises me with a topic (so, also work in progress).

Next, no R talk initiated by me. I used to think that I was the only one that ever initiated R talk, but something interesting has happened as I've started to master some of the communication stuff...I'm listening better, and I'm actually noticing that she does initiate talk about R stuff. I think there is a decent possibility she had all along but I possibly cut her off, interrupted, or dismissed what she was saying so quickly that she just gave up and walked away.

Now that I'm listening, and reflecting, instead of getting defensive or correcting her, I'm learning a whole lot more about what's going on upstairs. Now, that doesn't mean I'm not defensive or experiencing upsetness inside. I AM. Sometimes I have to yell at myself silently to 'Don't say anything...don't say anything...don't interrupt'. Yes that means I'm missing a bit of what she is saying, but I don't know that it even matters sometimes, she just wants to talk.

On to the last - sulking and withdrawing. Well, being out of the house I'm able to sulk and withdraw without her noticing. Which is good. But, in front of her I've generally been upbeat and friendly. Only being around her a few hours a week makes this easier for me than you.

OK, this is getting long.

I'll wrap it up by saying, it's an incredibly long haul. For 8 months I thought I was doing Plan A and I wasn't really. I was still LBing and DJing to such an extent that to her NOTHING HAD CHANGED. I believe this is where you are right now.

I really have been Plan A (with a few slips) since June or July. W has just started to notice in the last month, and has actually commented positively. W appears to be coming out of withdrawal and is now seeing a counselor for past two weeks. She has also started to drop some walls and tell me more stuff that's in her head. Finally, we've been spending more time together and having good supportive and loving conversations. And, here's the big one, W initiated ILY to me for the first time in maybe 2 years this past weekend.

Summary -

1) You haven't changed enough. Don't overreact to this statement. At the time, I was as frustrated as you. I was pointing out all of the differences that I made. Trust me, you haven't changed enough.

Think about what you've done to date as a great start. You are at the all-star break, and since you are not an all-star you've got the weekend to think about the 2nd half of the season. You are still in the race for the pennant, but you are not in first. Time to create a plan on how to makeover the team for the 2nd half run.

2) It's going to take a long time. A long time. Longer than it took to read this ridiculously long note. The only way you can speed this thing up is to speed up your makeover. She won't even start her changes until after you are mostly done. Accept it. It's not fair. Do you want fair, or do you want your marriage. I chose the marriage. But, I'll admit from time to time I still get all crazy and want it to be fair.

Whew, I'm done.

I've missed you on the board, and I thought about you a lot. I hope I can help.

lpyrnne,

Yes we are in MC, with the occasional IC, just recently attended a MB seminar, and are "possibly" working on the MB program.


W8ing4Signs,

I feel that I probably need to look into behavioral counseling / anger management. MC can't help if I can't stop AO's and other LB's.

As far as depression, yep, I am pretty sure of that.


Hardhead,

Great post. You gave me a lot of things to consider.

Thanks all.

Is the possibly in quotes because you aren't sure or she isn't sure?

RE: Angry Outbursts

You cannot fix this until you eliminate the AO's entirely.

Here is what works for me personally.

Develop the fine art of keeping your mouth closed.

There are many occasions in all marriages where one wants to respond to a comment made by a spouse knowing full well that their response will be the invitation to an argument. I usually take a hard swallow and notice that no argument occurs. If that kind of swallow doesn't do the trick I ask my husband, in a playful way, if he needs a different kind.

You can also talk with your wife about making the effort to avoid arguments. Create a specific plan that you both agree on when it gets tense. If you both know the other is committed to improving, it's easier to stay committed.


You could give your wife a water pistol and tell her to squirt you whenever you have an angry outburst. This is juvenile, but it is a playful thing to do and can be alot of fun.

You said your wife wants you to do the work, eliminate you rown negative behaviors, but she may accept the water pistol since it is silly and fun.

Years ago, when I did it to my husband he said that if I get to use a squirt gun, he gets to squirt me with whipped cream. I said only if he licks it off, and that night I came home with a case of the stuff. Everytime he went to the fridge for a snack or a drink, he came back with a grin.

Know Your Triggers. I have familiarize myself with what comments and situations trigger my anger and argumentative behavior, and over the years I have learn how to avoid getting trapped by them.

rprynne,

"possibly" because I have asked her a few times since returning from the MB seminar if we were going to do the program, and both times she has said "I don't know".
Then, she went ahead and did the first lesson of the LB portion without telling me she started. Got mad when I asked her again if we were doing it, and if so aren't we supposed to do it together? She said got mad and said first I was pushing her to do it, then I say she isn;t doing it the way I want her to (together). So I don't know. I did as much of the first lesson that she chose as I could by myself, but at the very least we have to do some of it together.

pieta,

I truly am trying... but dang, I have the stress of my job, the stress of being the sole income provider for the family, the stress of not having had a wife for all intents for the past 5 months, the stress of my devastated emotions, and now on top of all that the stress of being told that the successe or failure of my marriage is squarely on my shoulders and whether I eliminate my negative behaviors 100% (and by the way, do it NOW!).

Add to this that W will not adhere to Harleys' "just compensation" by the FWS to the BS. She will not go to extraordinary efforts to prevent incidental contact with OM (we live in a VERY small town).
I am wanting to begin looking for a new house away from this town. She will not consider moving right now. I can understand her not wanting to move when our marriage is still very "iffy", BUT, she doesn't seem to understand or want to accept that by staying in this small town it makes our chances even less. I will not stay here. Whether we stay together or don't I will move. PERIOD.

My problem is that because I so strongly want to save my marriage, my emotions are very "edgy". My burn to bang is pretty short right now. Tome, if I start having a casual "oh well" attitude,then that would be because I quit caring whether the marriage makes it or not.

Are you counselling with the Harleys? I say again: this is not a D-I-Y situation.

TD - I hate to say it, but it is all on your shoulders right now. Be strong.

I know my FWW said "i don't know", etc. Set up some MC with SH. After my FWW talked to Harley, she went from I don't know to "can you set up the next session sooner, I want to get started". I'm not saying its a miracle thing, they just have a lot of experience with this. They can give you the proper perspective so you can contain your AO's and help get your WW on board.

Its worth a call.