Intexas

I think we married the same man. My WH knows everyone and they all have thought and said what a great guy he is. I had friends that said they only wished their husbands were as involved and loved their family as much as he did. Then the bomb dropped in July leaving everyone is disbelief. People are only now starting to accept that he actually did this by choice. My friends and family are beginning to think that he MUST be on drugs. I can't imagine him EVER touching illeagal drugs or smoking. He has always been strongly against both although he enjoys drinking beer with his friends. That has never been a problem and I think people are confussing his behavior for some "problem" he must be having. I don't know how many times I've heard mid-life-crisis brought up. I think these things look similiar to the fog of an A.

He is beginning to say less and less to me about our marriage, the other woman, or his feelings for me. He tried to defend himself in the beginning and told me he still loved me and wanted to be there. Now he just looks like he feels sorry for us and does his daily duty of calling our daughter. He is slipping away so quickly and I don't know that it is worth fighting for at this point.

You probably do the same, but I ask myself 100 times a day why he would throw his family away and what must he be thinking?????????

I'm glad you have friends to talk to. I'm also glad to her that you and your WH are still discussing the situation and I know how it feels to hear the stupid answers that you don't expect (like you not being affectionate enough). That is just an excuse for his behavior.

The OW in our situation left her H the day I made contact with him. My H had given her warning that I knew his address and phone number. My WH moved back in for 3 weeks to "be there for us" with little attempt on his part to work on our M. He told me that "it wasn't about her and he loved me, didn't love her, but wasn't getting his feelings back". The A was back on the day he left I believe. This makes me think it IS about her, he doesn't love me, and he must at least have very strong feelings for her to do this.

What does your WH mean that you are not a guarentee and is he holding on to her in case things don't work out so he won't be alone or what????? These men say the dumbest things.

I know the things he is saying are so hurtful, but they are the ones losing a loving family. Are you able to stay in you home? My WH is willing to let me keep the home, primary custody, pay a large amount in child support, or what ever he can do to make this work. It seems that he is putting more work into ending our M than he has in saving it.

Good luck and stay in touch. My prayers in Missouri are with you in Texas.

MWC

BrambleRose,

You have some good arguments and I am certainly glad that they worked for you!

Do you think that this is the reason that your H came back? Or do you think he would have eventually come out of the fog anyway?

Bramble,

I'm glad it worked out for you, and I agree this is not about the WS. And I agree that there's too much focus on this thread about "rights." That's why I disagree with the following.



Again, this isn't a "right." Until relatively recently -- and today in many cultures -- the birth of a child was viewed as a sacred ritual among women, something men were NEVER allowed into. That's what midwives were about. And fathers bonded with their children just the same.

We're not talking about withholding the baby, or forbidding he father to see the baby. We're talking about not being in the room where the woman he has betrayed and is divorcing is going through physical agony to give birth to his child. Where she will be exposed and vulnerable. We're talking about not creating a sideshow where people are hiding WS's cell phone to keep him from calling the OW in the delivery room, while his wife is crying out in anguish and pain.

This would seem to me to be common sense. The mother needs to concentrate on the child, not on the drama WS has created.

So far this WS has opted for the easy part of parenthood: conception, and watching the birth. It's not clear how he's going to be involved in the duties and responsibilities. Childbirth should not be used as an inducement to get involved. The needs of mother and child for love and support during this trauma is too great.

I'll bow out now. Obviously my feelings on this are too strong.

I agree with this and it makes me sad to say that he isn't involved or emotionally plugged into his baby's life. I want him to be and know that as a divorced/part-time dad he NEVER will be the father to our son that he was to my daughter. Now he's not even there for her like he was.

I'm definately leaning toward letting him walk the baby to the nursery "with my daughter" but not having him in the room during delevery. He may not even be reachable when I go into labor and I won't have someone call him in the middle of the night when he is with OW to come be with me.

He may come home or to the delivery out of guilt if I gave him the ultimatum, but I guess I don't want him under those conditions and don't feel that I could ever be satisfied. If he comes back and doesn't sincerely want to, I have to believe that our marriage is not strong enough to last. I don't want to have to work my tail off the next 40 years to make him love me.

I won't keep him from his children. The OW has done that enough without me getting involved. Maybe he needs some time in the waiting room to think about his choices although I can't imagine that this event will cause much more thought on his part. He has lost everything that I THOUGHT was important to him and he appears to be satisfied with the choices he has made. All he has is the OW and a few hours a week with our child. I guess thats good enough for him.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
MWC

A.M.
Thanks for your input. Your ideas have been helpful to me in working out this issue.
MWC

AM:

Keep speaking the TRUTH. You know what I mean. Don't bow out of this because you feel strongly. When you feel strongly is when you are needed.

So if you get divorced, what do you want your husband's relationship to be with the new baby?

If you let him in the delivery room, how will that help that?
If you don't, how will it affect his relationship?
It might make it easy for him to not bond and not care and not get involved with the baby. Do you want that?
I think some people want you to punish him...but what will be the fall out of that? You have decide that for yourself.

I think some have hit on the important topic and that is the concern for the mother and child during labor.

I keep thinking mother, labor, pain, lots of exposed body parts, compromising positions and you sure don't want someone who is uncaring in the room during all of that.

Letting the father sit in the waiting room, well maybe he will think a bit while he is waiting. It's about all you can do while you sit there. And if you sit there long enough and worry a little, maybe even a little prayer comes into play.

Okay, then, Mimi. I'll let it tear.

I'm not trying to "punish" anyone. I know I would feel humiliated if I was sprawled, naked, my stomach distorted, no make-up, tears running down my cheek, my face distorted with pain, crying out for support from "dad,", then giving birth to a marvelous baby. And then "Dad," seeing me this way and having his wonderful moment with baby, leaves the room afterwards to go to his home with sexy OW to tell her how it all went, making it clear that OW takes precedence now over baby and wife.

I couldn't work with that. I would be devastated. And the birth of the baby should be wonderful and ecstatic -- even if tinged with the sadness of an abandoning husband.

If a man needs this experience to "care" about the baby, then he's not much of a dad. My dad never had these experiences. And, how's this for a kicker: like most women of her generation, my mother was out cold for all her childbirths -- so she missed it, too. My own mother didn't "experience" my birth -- she was sedated. And she loved me anyway.

Please don't use this experience to try to manipulate certain results. You have a child already -- you know in what poor shape you will be in to manipulate outcomes when you are in the throes of childbirth.

I know sometimes it "worked" -- or appeared to work -- to bring a WH back. (I wonder if they would have come back anyway.) In other cases, the OW was waiting in the parking lot, or "on hold" on the telephone. I don't think you should gamble on this one way or the other. I don't think this anguishing and ecstatic experience should be used as a bargaining chip.



I don't think he would stay from guilt. The time for ultimatums has passed. He has filed for divorce and is living with the OW. He's in the red zone now.

Again, everyone: THE CHOICE IS WH's. ALWAYS WAS. Let's not let a pregnant woman suck up the blame on this, one way or the other. Why do we do this? Why? Why? Why? It's HIS choice to file for D, his choice to move in with OW.

Marriedw/children is merely making a choice to protect herself from further harm and humiliation. She's making her choices from the pieces he left her. It's not her job to protect him from the consequences of his decisionmaking.

"Punishing"! That word really gets to me in view of the nature of the event. It's not a theater opening! It's a medical emergency in which she the mother will be naked, distorted, and probably screaming in pain.

Please please remember this in all this talk about "rights." It's a terrifying event -- deeply and intensely intimate -- resulting in great joy, but sometimes death!

The risk is all the mother's -- and the child's. And the mother needs to have people there who are COMMITTED. Committed to her, and the baby. Mothers, sisters, or people who love her, and are with her for the long haul.

"Punishing" is such a trivial word to use for such an important event. Like she is handing out tickets to a show or something.

A.M., I am with you. I gave birth to my 8 lb. 11 oz. son without so much as a clonk over the head, but that pain would have been *nothing* compared to the agony and humilation of my husband leaving the delivery room to go home with an OW. (He didn't, by the way -- that was almost 18 years ago -- but I can only imagine what marriedwchildren would be feeling knowing that's exactly what her WH is plans to do.)

Mulan

My bowling ball was 9 lbs, 9 oz. Ouch!

I agree!

No WS in delivery room. A H...supportive H or sister or mom or friend is much more loving and kind....

I still get sickened knowing what my xh did...crying and saying he wanted above all for me to live (I had serious complications and was hospitalized for 9 days)...only to 3 years later leave me and his son...and shack up with ow. The same WS actually slept in my room for 8 days at hospital...is this the same man????

Yes...because he became a WS! And his brain turned to jello and his morality flew out the back door!

However, on the day of the birth of the oc, I had a custody switch with my xh...Met him in parking lot. He once again, had no wedding ring on and hid the hospital bracelet by sticking his hand in his pocket quickly so I would not know the baby was born.

That is how a WS and a WF (wayward father) operates hon!

Do you want somebody at your side like that?

No! You want family...and those who truly support you and the baby. It is not a pretty sitch to be in...birth that is. Yes, it is an incredible miracle...but not one if you're vulernable or have questionable feelings about somebody being in the room with you...

I just think this WS does not deserve this. It is NOT a given right at all that a father be in the delivery room. Sorry guys. It is NOT. It is the WOMAN'S CHOICE who is there. And yes , in olden days men were prohibited from seeing the process of birth unless they were a doctor.

I swear...if I had a bad contraction and I knew then what I know now about my xwh, if he were in room with me,

EACH TIME I HAD A CONTRACTION I'D HAVE THE NURSE HIT HIS HAND WITH A SLEDGEHAMMER!

I'd be like...you say you feel my pain? Feel this baby! Whack!

OOps it was four years later...

Sorry. I think the cold medicine is getting to the math centers of my brain.

Look ladies ~ I am not trying to get in a pissing match here.

I'm also really trying not to be snotty.

But, there are some significant differences here: I actually experienced childbirth with a WS present and went on to recover my marriage instead of divorcing.

My experience was not the one that either you are imagining or hypothesizing might happen.

The answers for any woman in this situation are not black and white, cut and dried.

Again, not to be snotty....MY husband is home. And yes, it was one of many factors that turned my husband back to his family despite AM's dismissal of that possibility. He has been pretty clear with me about that fact. I did not know the impact of my choice on him until many months later.

My approach to taking actions that I felt were in the best interest of my child's relationship with her Dad were the right ones in my situation.

My husband did not deserve to be present. He was present because my daughter deserved to have him there and because it was his responsiblity to be there.

I am now very glad I made the choice I made.

As a result of my choice - 25 minutes ago, I climbed out of bed, and passed my 5 year old daughter in the hallway, as she sleepily stumbled from her bed to my room to snuggle her Pa while she wakes up. Every morning, she can be found curled up snoozing next to her dad.

I get to tell her how much we love her. I don't have to make up stories or try to explain why her dad wasn't there when she was born.

She doesn't have to be burdned with adult issues.

(And as a side note, I believe that men BELONG with their partners during childbirth, and centuries of it being a secret sacred women's event doesn't make it right, especially not in a society that already encourages men to be detached and unplugged from their families.)

I know that in my case, I did the right thing.

I think that the factors of this situation is

1 marriedwith is not sure herself what she wants..
AND
2. she has had no concrete conversations with her WS about what he is planning except second hand info from his mom.

time to go to the source and explore with out threats or committing to anything what he thinks about the birth AND what he thinks of contact with the OW...and how he sees that all working out in bonding with this child.,.

my strongest opinion and recomendation is MAKE this decision while strong before labor...

I do not imagine a time in life when a woman is more vulnerable than when giving birth.....

and yet there is no other time in her life when she is more powerful....

hmmmmmmmmmm

perhaps a letter to the WS...
laying out the her struggles.......
perhaps with word pictures..........as pep would use..

perhaps turn it around to make him feel her vulnerability...

speak as if it is he that is having some major surgery....
and speak of her struggle to not go to his side for it is not her side he has chosen.......and her choice to be with him or not.........and why that choice is made...

and to picture story him going through say open heart surgery without her there...............

something like that......perhaps.........

find the pictures to speak your fears and pain....
see if he can't give you a good enough reason for as why to be there ...see if you can't reach him your husband.....

also inside of you ...is the future ........and with your babies birth is the chance that something wonderful may change in this world because of he or she.........
blessed are you marriedwith.......no matter his chaos...blessed are you.........remember that....

sometimes that's empowering enough to rise above all the chaos and in the end his presence or non prensence becomes of no issue to you..........for you are not of him nor are you like him...and that only brings you peace........

focus off of him
focus on you and what you want and can and can't tolerate

ARK

Rose

I'm curious how diferent your situation was from what mine is. Was your WH living with you at the time? (Mine isn't. He is living with his parents but not coming home on many nights at all) Was he still involved in the A? (Mine is) Had either of you filed for D? (We haven't) Was he doing ANYTHING to work on your M? (Mine isn't) Did you have other children? (We do, one daughter) If so, was he involved with the other children at the time? (Mine is somewhat involved).

He calls to tell her goodnight, visits her once or twice a week and has had her start staying a night every week or two with him. This doesn't compare to the kind of father he was before the A.

If he didn't have a strong enough bond with our 7-year-old daughter, who he loves dearly, then why would a new baby that he has shown little interest in have such an affect on him. He was at my daughter's delivery but still chose OW over keeping his family together.

It makes me cry to think about other people's children snuggling with their daddy's and knowing that my children won't have that oportunity, but they will always have me and he was the only one to make this choice in our family.

Everyone has wanted to knock some sense into him, but I'm afraid he would still be unconcious if I hit him that hard.

Seeing our son born MIGHT have some effect on him, but missing seeing him born MIGHT also have some effect.

Either way, I hope he has enough sense left to be present at the hospital and wait to see our baby and not be worried about the OW on that day. Unfortunately he hasn't made a lot of good choices lately that would lead me to think he will be focused on his family, and I DO NOT want to be focused on his issues on that day.

I spoke with him breifly last night about seeing my daughter Friday night. I thought is was time to discuss the delivery. I told him that he had not mentioned the baby lately or the delivery to me... he cut me off and said that he had told other people he planned on being in the delivery room. I began to tell him that it wasn't his CHOICE of whether he WANTED to... again he cut me off by looking at his watch and telling me he had to go. It seems that he is at an all time low in discussing the situation or listening to what I think. Again, I'm so disappointed but he's making my decision easier with each and every action.

One day people tell me that our situation doesn't sound hopeless and then I have a day like yesterday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
MWC

WRITE HIM A LETTER.......
SEND MR. CONFLICT AVOIDER A LETTER..............

OOOOH HE IS A SLIPPY ONE...

ark

You know BR....it is all perspective...(and I do understand where you are coming from)...but the very SAME people who will agree with you that it was your child's right to have your WH there at the delivery are the VERY same people who will go ballistic if a WH wants to be there in the delivery room in "other" situations...emphasis on the word "other"....in those cases, it doesn't seem to matter too much about the child's right to have his father there.....somethings just make you go....HMMMMMMMMM. In those cases, what the child "deserves" I guess is not relevant....he or she is too small to realize what is going on any way...LOL, I bring this fact up becasue I just love the chrisitans, and do gooders of this site, who are such hypocrites that they don't even realize it....but ofcourse, this is different.....LOL....I can hear it now.

Perspective I guess..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

lemon...

in the end it does not matter what anyone believes...it is what married chooses............for her and the baby....

and the choice in my opinion needs to be made in what is best healthwise for the mom as well as what is right for the child

if any persons presence would be the root of great stress and distraction for the woman giving labor than that needs to be taken in account for her safety which ultimately leads to the safety of the baby...

my opinion and vote for ME would no...in this case
I couldn't do it...I couldn't give birth and stangle my WS at the same time.....
but I think I would try.....to strangle him that is...

marriedwith's husband has red flags flying everywhere about his ability to handle this at all...

she asks him direct questions about his plan on the delivery he answers with some nonsense about telling OTHERS that he is going to be there...meaning his MOMMY!!!!!!!!!!

'I told my mama I was coming to the delivery...."

and his inability to DISCUSS this like an adult....
makes me question his ABILITY to be there for the child....

I still await marriedwith's final decision as she has my support either way for the decision in hers....

I am also am not of the personal opinion that all sperm donars need to be present at the time of birth...
and that there presence or lack of presence does any good or harm...
crap they gassed me at my second childs birth........so in theory I wasn't there for quite some time after he arrived...
and he appears somewhat normal.........as normal as he can be with me as being there during much more formative years...

If I were to tell marriedwith ,which I never do, what to do based on what the child deserves then my answer would be a clear cut don't have him there...for if we go by what the child deserves the child deserves a father that respects its mother...it is the greatest thing that any parent can do for their child.............

I implore marriedwith to pursue this line of communication with him....and not accept second hand cowardice information....

that before going in to deliver she has the right to know of his intent and then she has the right to decide....

and lemonman....how do you make this leap of Christianity and what you believe they as a collective believe should happen in the case of a MM and OC birth....
I have never been involved with any such thing...and have no such opinion one way or the other...and would have to see what serves all persons involved in such a situation...

I would say that if you as the BS CHOOSE to stay with MM who is having a OC...then you darn well should probably expect such a thing to occur...

but what that has to do with Christianity isnt connecting in my brain.........

ARK