I was just wondering if there are other people recovering in a 12 step program who are using the MB principles. I am a recovering alcoholic and I occasionally have trouble feeling like the MB stuff and the AA stuff are in conflict with each other.

I do believe that in my situation, AA stuff takes priority over MB stuff. Resentments, anger, exposure, entitlement, fighting God's will for me, powerlessness...it all gets very jumbled up in my head.

I am sure that if I weren't in AA, I could follow Harley's principles to a tee. But taking MY recovery process into consideration, tends to make me less active in the MB process. Exposure makes me look at my ego and fear issues, I feel I need to pray for OW and WH and look at them as "spiritually ill" and treat them as I would a sick friend (as the Big Book says).

I am sure that my recovery process makes me deal with my marital issues very differently and was just wondering if there were any more like me that were having the same issues, or that could help me resolve mine.

There is nothing about Marriage Builders principles that conflicts with AA. What do you think the conflict is?

I am sure it is just my perception of a conflict. Looking at my motivation for doing everything and whether it is fear and ego based vs just following Harley's instuctions to save my M.

I realized tonight that I will have to do a 4th step on my M, and make amends at some point. But my motivation for doing that needs to be clearing away my baggage for spiritual growth as opposed to trying to win back my WH.

I feel strongly that the A should be clear in the D papers, but that is all ego crap, it really doesn't make a difference to anyone. It is not my job to take WH moral inventory, that is his issue. I get frustrated having to look at my motives, resentments and praying for all the [censored] when they get a free pass to do whatever feels good.

Maybe it is just me, but these are the things I struggle with.

Well, I have been in AA for 20 years, and I have yet to see a conflict here. Could it be you have been engaging in a little mental masturbation and making things more complicated than they really are? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have you considered your motivations for not taking certain actions?

Here we go again ML! Are you an expert on everything????? Why bother to ask Jean36 what she thinks the conflict is? You've already told her there isn't one.

Jean36,
I have worked as a counselor with substance abusers, both male and female, and my exWS was an alcoholic/addict for three of our nine years together. I also have gone to Al-anon. I have felt that there are areas of discrepancy.

One major difference I've noticed is that it is expected that the alcoholic/addict accepts total responsibility for their addiction and it's effects on self and other. It's their responsibility to work their recovery program, not their spouse's. When my WS got into Recovery I was not expected to help him fix his life, work his program. Quite the opposite. I wasn't expected to take him back with no conditions and meet his every need. That type of behavior would often delay someone getting into Recovery or staying in Recovery. It provided them with excuses to "use".

My xWS told me that he had no right to expect me to trust him. That it was his responsibility to earn my trust by his consistent actions over time. He told me that he didn't even have the right to ask me to take him back. He loved me and hoped I would. This was a part of him working his 12 step program. His recovery was not dependent on me making any changes in myself.

There was no expectation that I would gear my life towards meeting his needs. Part of Recovery is accepting responsibility and the consequences of one's addiction. It's not looking for someone else to blame or make things better for you. I told him upfront that I was initially incapable of "cheering him on" in his efforts at recovery. I had been through multiple relapses with him. It was too painful to get my hopes up and be manipulated again when he fell back into using. If he had a need for that type of support it would have to come from other sources, e.g., counseling, others in Recovery.

I was also told by my husband that it was his responsibility to put his Recovery ahead of all else, including me and our marriage. If he couldn't stay clean and sober than he wouldn't be available for a relationship anyhow. He might make choices that would help him stay clean and sober, that didn't meet my needs. That was hard to hear after so many years of relationship deprivation. I had choices. I could either accept it, hold off on a decision, or leave. At least he was honest, and I knew what I was dealing with. That's actually what led me to staying and working on our marriage. I didn't need to hear him making any commitments or promises that he couldn't possibly know that he would keep. We'd been through that in the past.

Except for a planned intervention to try and get someone into treatment, one's program is in an anonymous setting. It is not announced to the world. "Outing" someone was thought to intimidate and discourage many people from getting into Recovery. The guilt and shame base was already so high for those who wanted to stop using. There would be no drugs or alcohol to numb the feelings. New coping skills weren't on board yet. Announcing the process and progress was up to the recovering person...not to their spouse.

I'm no expert on Recovery, and I'm certainly not one on the MB program. These are some areas that I've questioned. But, they are open to interpretation. I'd be interested in hearing more about what you see as being some of the conflicts.

heartmending, did you forget to take your HRT? You sound a little ...hysterical. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I sure don't pretend to be an "expert" on everything, but I have been an active AA member and circuit speaker since April 27, 1985. I have been sober for 20 years in AA, so while I am no expert, I know the AA program. I haven't found any conflicts yet. And I know MB fairly well too, unlike others around here who don't, but still feel qualified to dole out "advice."

And it is JEAN who is the alcoholic here, not her husband. From her perspective there is no "conflict." There are differences of course, but not conflicts.

Did you forget to take your "ego-buster" pill today?? But, of course, you wouldn't recognize your need for one! (Don't you just love sarcasm!!)

I think you need to look back at the role of humility and being humble in Recovery. 20 years in Recovery and being a circuit speaker doesn't exempt you from that character trait.

I don't have to be an expert to share my thoughts, opinions and experiences regarding 12 step recovery programs. I can just share my "experience, strength and hope". In fact, there are no "experts" in Recovery. No one is the ultimate authority, but one's Higher Power.

If all anyone wanted on this site was for you, alone, to give them the answer, then why is it a discussion forum?

As you've noted in the past, Jean doesn't need this kind of conflict. So, I shall take my hysterical self and depart. Now where did I put that Xanax?????

Don't choke on all that humility. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Hope things are better in the morning.

Forgive me, no AA experience here. But is it possible that there are times when this effort to question your own motivation, a good thing no doubt, is itself paralyzing?

Is it possible that in suspecting your own motives, always being on the lookout for ego and fear as guiding your decisions, you might overdiagnose those problems?

Forgive me, I realize that endagering your recovery is the last thing you want to do.

But something about this... it reminds me of the thing, I forget what they call it, where your self-examination takes on a life of its own and itself becomes a kind of harmful narcissism?

Please disregard if necessary. But your post struck me this way.

GC

Possibly Graycloud. I may be using my moral inventory as an excuse to stop working on the M.

Melody has strongly encouraged me to contact OWH personally. I have exposed at OW/OWH work, he probably knows, but no, I am not positive. So I have the moments of panic-how can I do nothing, go talk to OWH! So I look at my motivation-and it looks to me like a kid throwing a temper tantrum because I am not getting what I want.

I am probably going to cause my WH some tax problems, what is my motivation? Is it because I don't trust him or that I have a bruised ego and want him to pay? There are many things that I can use against him in a D, but am I doing that to honestly protect myself and my kids are just to make him pay for leaving me?

I think that I am using my AA stuff as an excuse to stop working towards reconciliation. I say that I am just going to let go and let God. Perhaps this D is part of the big plan and that it was going to take something like this to get me to finally accept that my M is not what God wants for me. That I do deserve something better.

If I am truly powerless over people, places and things, then why am I trying to manipulate the situation to get what I want? If my WH is truly in an addicted state, don't I need to just let him bottom while I protect myself? But I also see that exposure is just a way to expedite the bottom. Maybe I am just mentally masturbating.

I do know that when I just give up emotionally, I do feel more peaceful. I don'tknow whether that is depressive apathy or just accepting God's will for me.

I remember when I contacted OMW. I didn't trust myself, because it feld goooooooood. But I did it, and it was right. Turned out OMW was trying to contact me at the same time.

Fighting an affair isn't a temper tantrum, Jean. Not wanting your marriage to fall apart isn't a manifestation of fear.

Usually when people don't contact the OWH, it's because they're afraid. That it will make them look spiteful, or that it will drive the affair partners together, or that the nasty abusive spouse of the OW might flip out. That's letting fear guide your actions.


You aren't powerless over them. You're only somewhat powerless over them, some of the time. The courage to change the things I can, right?

GC

Jean, this is nothing more than an abuse of AA principles. Exposing the affair to the OMW is not "throwing a tantrum," it is taking a step to warn a victim of your husband and his girlfriend. That is a good deed. Your motivation is to save your marriage, and I think you know that. That is the point and that is the goal.

I wonder if you aren't using your fears to dredge up some very overreaching excuses to not expose the affair? Because honestly, Jean, that's what it looks like to me. First you had to "understand the Korean culture" excuse and now we are looking for some cover in the AA program.

Jean. C'mon..

There is also a little something in the AA program about being honest with ourselves when we are operating out of fear instead of reason. You have extremely sound reasons to expose to the OWH and they are:

1. to warn the victim so he can protect himself from your H and his sleazy gf

2. to bust up the affair and hopefully save your marriage

Those are sound, correct motivations, Jean. And there is nothing in AA that says it is good to not lift a finger to save your marriage when you had a chance. Time is wasting,Jean.


He may not ever hit bottom if you keep covering up his secret for him. Your marriage may not live long enough for you to find out.

You both are more likely right. I may be just buying all the fog speak, I think he has convinced me the M is not worth saving.

If I look at the 15 year history, then no it is not. But the past year (after reconciliation) was wonderful, at least for me. But I came back knowing exactly what my needs where, I was able to express them and they were met. I still don't think he know what they are or how to get them met.

Maybe it is all ego keeping me from talking to OWH's personally. Perhaps that is the last thing that I can do, and if I don't do that-I can blame the failure of the M on that, intead of just saying that he really doesn't care enough about me.

I would like to know the status of the A before I do anything else. OWH will know when the lawyer calls him/her to get their legal name for the D papers. I still am not sure which name is the OW/OWH.

Some days, not caring just feels better than fighting. I guess I am just having one of those days.

I wouldn't wait to find out the status of the affair before you see him, it doesn't matter. But you can be pretty much assured that it is still on since you are helping the OW hide her secret. It's a good idea to open up the lines of communications with the OWH so you can stay in touch and work together to bust up the affair. Don't leave this to some lawyer in the future, Jean, that is another cop out.

Jean-
(((((((((((hugs)))))))))))
Put yourself first and stay in recovery in aa. The relationship issues will follow 2nd.Two things may happen-
youll grow and not this relationship or youll grow back together and you will have your health.

Please put AA and you first- you cant help ordeal w/someone if you are not well.
I know my Mom was a recovering alcholic bit she has kidney failure and died this past May.

how about the resentment that I have towards OW, what do you do with that? OK, I have a resentment because she activated my fear and ego button. According to the Big Book, I will have to make amends to her at some point for the "wrongs" I have done to her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. I need to look at her as my spiritually sick sister (puke emoticon)

If someone rear ends my car, I get PO'd and then have to look at what button they have pushed and deal with that.

Someone told me "life should not be a struggle, but a wiggle", if I am struggling, then I am not aligning myself with God's will for me, I am not trusting.

At the AA meeting, there is a sign over the coffee that says "It's not them" and that makes me want to scream "Yes, sometimes it is them, they are all a$$es" To which I was told, "fight it and suffer".

I feel like I should just let it all go, let WH and OW wallow in their muck, move on and get right with myself. That does not mean that I will not nail his a$$ in the D settlement. I can look at him as "spiritually sick" and treat him like I would a sick friend. My I wouldn't let my grandma with dementia be in charge of my kids or my bills, and I can't let WH be in charge of that stuff either.

Jean, you can deal with the resentment you have against the OW, but whatever would you owe her amends for? You are her victim, she is not yours. Defending yourself from her adultery with your H is not wrongdoing worthy of making amends. You don't owe her apology for trying to save your marriage.

The rest of this is more cop out language generated by your fears. Please note that when one rationalization falls on its face, you quickly produce another one. You don't have to go through all these mental gymnastics. Just make a decision to throw in the towel and move on. It's your marriage.

Hi Jean,

Did your H have a PA also or is it all EA's? If it is an EA, I can understand that you want to look into that more before exposing. An EA is difficult thing to explain to someone else. Some people don't see that giving all their time, talk and attention to someone other than spouse is wrong.
They only see that a PA is wrong. It's a shame that if it is just an EA, that that is leading to divorce. I could not for a minute understand that one...

But you cannot not expose the A for the sake of step 9. You do need to expose it. This is an interesting step isn't it. My H best friend didn't think my H should have told me about his ONS do to step 9 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> He is no longer my friend, and my H very rarely talks to him now. H told me immediately. Honesty and openess is always the best thing.

My H is starting over again in recovery after 6 1/2 yrs of sobriety, EXCEPT... from the meds he takes that make him high. He Dr. shopped until he got a "good mix" of meds. Being a past drug/alcohol counselor he knew the right ones to get!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> He was real sneaky about that one, no one would have known until he couldn't help himself from looking high anymore. He will see a new Dr. next month. thank God, or I would be gone!! I will have to go through his withdrawing from those. Yuck!!! We met at a support group, he was, what I thought, sober for about 2 years, and I swore I would never marry anyone in addiction... having no clue about his meds... He's very smart and knows the program to a tee...and sponsors others....but the meds were just exposed! I am the one who had to do the research on these drugs. The Dr. prescribing them to him I feel should not have a practice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> And really my H should not have me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> but I'm here working on forgiveness. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Any way....

It's difficult reconciling a marriage when a substance addiction is there also.


I am a "recovered one" (Jesus healed me... for some that is hard to believe, but it's true). 13 yrs sober. Stopped AA, don't need it, don't need the gossip, affairs, and hurt that comes with it. No offense, but it happens in our town of AA, most oldtimers have left. So it's just church for me, ladies bible study (this helps me more than any program) and sometimes a 12-step program called "Overcomers" based on the same steps but using the bible as our guidebook. This group is for those recovering from many things, alcohol, codependancy, smoking, alanon etc...

So my H is going to AA meetings, has been for years. IC for years, now MC, church, 2 bible studies per week, and trying to work MB principles also! So I can see how you could get mixed up with all the programs because we just had this talk the other night.

Now I am a recovering BS!! When will everything be perfect!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Love, Lady

lady sheep,
thanks for sharing. It started as an EA but he has been out of the house for a month now. I would imagine that he is in PA now although as of last week, he as still denying it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I did just find out that they are still together, when my 6yo asked me why I don't like Daddy's new friend?!?

I guess I am on my way to see OWH, the employee that I spoke to seemed surprised that I have been told that OWH is cool with the three way marriage-as I have been told. I have been told theat OW and OWH are just together until they get their green cards.

So, it might not save my M, I am not sure I care anymore. But I do need her legal name for the papers.

Is this having the courage to change the things I can or is this a self will run riot?

Good post, Lady. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jean, I would also add that exposing the OW has nothing to do with Step 9:

Step 8: Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Step 9: Made direct amends to such people whereever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

The reason this is not applicable to this situation is because you are not "harming" the OW, you are "harming" the affair by exposing. The OW is harming herself by having an affair. And you are simply exposing her activities in an attempt to stop her destructiveness and enable her H to protect himself from your H and his W.