Well, thanks to all of you that offered advice in my other thread. I've come to a few realizations thru you and thru crying last night.<P>First of all I realize that I have not forgiven myself. I cannot do it. I don't know why. I see the devastation, realize the lives I affected and screwed up FOREVER (including three little kids that no longer have their dad at home). I look at my H and feel so sorry for him to have a wife like this. I look at other couples (our friends) with untainted marriages and feel extremely dirty. A scar ... a permanent scar on our marriage.<P>I look at my parents and realize that I have 'marred' the good family name. No, they don't say that -- in fact when I told them what had happened it was the FIRST time I realized they possessed unconditional love for me.<P>I just screwed up so stinkin' bad ... and it can't be taken back. This is worse than what I did as a teenager with guys -- because I am MARRIED.<P>I believe God forgives this sin that I committed last year .... I believe he has forgiven me ..... and that should be enough for me to forgive myself.<P>But I can't.<P>And do you suppose that because I feel this way, I look at the marriage as unsalvageable ... and am now staying for my girls? Do you suppose that because I view this act as the most hideous of sins to a marriage, that is the reason I don't "try" to patch up completely? Is that the reason I'm resigned to just exist? Because I don't think it can be saved?<P>I've seen it all before ... and so many of you on the board profess it boldly ... it can be saved .... but I have to WANT it. I have to work my butt off for it ... and I don't have that desire at all.<P>Is that because I now view myself as sub-human?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 28, 1999).]

Maya,<P>Yes, God has forgiven you. That is the easy part. Now you have the battle of forgiving yourself. That doesn't mean you justify it or minimize the impact on you & others.<P>Things happen in life. If someone smashed your car, would you keep hating him all your life? Probably not. Why is he more important than you? You are the most important person in your life. Yes, even more so than your Husband. That doesn't mean you jump into the "taker" mode though. You have realized what you did was wrong, you have and are making amends to the best of your ability. I truly admire you for that. It is a quality which will make you shine throughout your life. Not everyone can do that.<P>You have been through the "school of hard knocks" and graduated with honors! You have a loving husband who has stood by you! Most importantly, you have YOU! Now get up, brush yourself off and get going! Quit nailing yourself to the wall.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

Maya,<P>I think that many betrayers have a hard time forgiving themselves. My husband hasn't forgiven himself. He has justified why he had the affair but, not forgiven himself. I think that is an essential part of the healing process. <P>I too have not completely forgiven myself for how I contributed to the demise of my marriage. For being a horrible wife to my husband for so many years. I have learned as he has to justify or explain why things happened. I can tell you that I am getting closer to forgiveness of myself than my husband is of himself.<P>I think part of what has helped me is watching Joyce Meyers Minister on TV. She is really good and funny. Down to earth and into real life issues. Her TV show is called "Life In the Word". Try watching it sometime. Maybe you could tape it.<P>You sure sound like a good loving and caring woman. Just like a human being whom made a bad choice and made a mistake. You are remorseful and trying to make things right. Go with what your heart knows is right. Try and keep trying.<P>You need to forgive yourself. I believe that will come about it time. In the meantime rest assured that you will be on my prayer list. <P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

You know, Maya, my H admitted 2 days ago that at times he feels like you do, but never says anything to me. All the times I wondered if he missed her, wished he was with her, checked for signs, wasted my time, he has been feeling very bad about what he has done to us. It made me feel better to know that. Reading this site was making me suspicious and obsessed that it might still be going on, when it's so obvious that he is so happy and relieved that it's just us again. Sorry you're torn up inside. Just take that energy you're wasting and think what nice thing you can do for your H today.

Maya, you have grown as a person. Enough to realize that God is so much more forgiving than we give him credit for. Maybe you need to realize that if everyone else has forgiven and been forgiven that you are worthy of that. Maybe you need to quit praying to forgive yourself but to pray for the strength to forgive yourself. I know this sounds as though the same thing but it isn't. Your praying for God to re-enforce your belief in Him enough so that you know you can do this. It is the only way you can go on. You can't get past something until you've forgiven yourself and you need to do this. Why did he die on this cross for us? We have the right, because he gave us this gift, to understand that we are human, we make errors, we learn from them, we grow from them and then we grow as people. If there was no such thing as adultry how would we know what it would be as a sin? God created this as a learning experience and you have learnt and now need to forgive yourself for the temptation and grow from it. We all need to do that, betrayers and the betrayed. I pray for you, I know you are a good person and I think you know that to. God Bless you.<P>------------------<BR>Chick's<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<BR>

Maya,<P>I'm having the same problem re: forgiving myself. The one thing I am sure of though is that God has forgiven me. In the Bible, God did not separate sin. If you've been in church at all you've heard it: SIN IS SIN. We are ALL sinner saved by grace. Grace is such a powerful concept. It is UNMERITED, UNDESERVED and God gives it freely to those who ask. I have fallen to my knees in tears asking God to forgive me, and I believe He has. I haven't been a very good Christian lately, preferring to drown my sorrows in beer and cigarettes rather than church and the Bible. But God still hasn't given up on me. This is one place when I can speak for my H as well... we both believe that God wants our marriage to succeed. Sometimes that moral obligation is enough to pull us together when our hearts are broken and we feel like giving up.<P>When you can't forgive yourself, look to God. Puts me in tears every time I think about it. <P>------------------<BR>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<BR>

Maya,<P>You may have "scarred" your marriage, but don't look at it that way. Look at it like this: Your marriage survived, and can even flourish despite the scars. THAT is called the power of positive thinking.<P>When you start thinking of negative things, try to catch yourself and say "So what's the positive spin?" There's ALWAYS a positive spin. Yeah, you did a bad thing, but you survived. Your marriage survived. You found out that you can be a stronger person than you thought. You found out that your H loves you more than you really knew. You found out that, despite the rough times, you can still have it all.<P>You are such a good person, Maya, I don't think you realize how much so. You've helped SO many people here, just with your faith and a kind word or two. Would a horrible, "sub-human" do that? I dare say NO.<P>You CAN forgive yourself. You MUST forgive yourself. You were human. You were lost, but God has found you. HE has forgiven you because you are truly repentent. Now you must find it in yourself to forgive yourself and stop beating yourself up. Never forget, but DO forgive.<P>I know you can do it, Maya.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

My faith and belief in Jesus Christ as my savior is what baffles me. I'm contridicting myself to say I believe He died for our sins and that covered our sins, past present and future, but not "believe" what the Bible says. I'm, in effect, saying that this is too big to forgive ... or something like that. I don't know.<P>Yes, sin is sin .... I'm aware of that too. And I realize that my H broke some vows himself by not "loving and cherishing" me. He has said that himself.<P>I feel like I'm in a fog.

Maya,<P>I want you to make it. Sure there is a scar in the marriage. There is hurt that can never be totally eliminated, It may linger in our heads for some time. But, I believe all marriages have scars. Bringing two people together for a lifetime is not going to be a bed of roses everyday. <P>Just like the scars on our bodies, marriage scars are reminders of times that we were careless. So maybe even though God forgives us and helps us to move on, he allows that scar to remain as a reminder to what can happen when we lose our focus on marriage. <P>I can only imagine what the betrayer must feel when the dust settles. You have to keep trying Maya. You can't let this thing win. A happy marriage for you and your husband is out there for the taking. <P>SHA

LoneStar, don't be making me cry ... again! You say the kindest things ... I wish I knew the person you were talking about.<P>This is such a dark place to be in, ya know it? I don't like it at all. And I did this to myself. A simple NO last summer would have avoided all this pain and suffering ... all the destruction of lives and hearts.<P>A simple no .....

Maya,<P>True, a simple "no" would, in theory, have spared you all that pain, but do you really think you were capable of saying "No" back then? You were human! You weren't thinking straight. Here's the positive spin:<P>You've got your head back on straight now. You ARE thinking clearly now. You know NOW what you have to do in the future.<P>So you learned the hard way. Not the preferred way to learn the lesson, but now you know. You can promise yourself you'll NEVER make that mistake again.<P>If NOTHING else, you've learned how NOT to handle problems in your marriage. That's a step in the right direction.<P>NOW you have to say "Maya, you were human. You did a stupid thing that almost cost you your marriage. But, you're on track now, and you've got to get on with life or you WILL lose your marriage." Then, you have to go out and DO IT.<P>You have to DECIDE to go on with life.<P>As I said before, Maya, you can do it. I know you can.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Petunia is one blessed woman.

Now you're gonna make me cry. <P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

You guys're too cute. Hi, LS.<P>Maya, I remember this sooo well. Yah, like I told you yesterday, I remembered it so well I blocked it out & "forgot" to mention it to you in my first post to you! So I do know how painful it is...<P>I remember just sitting on the side of my bed one day, a few months after everything happened, and getting this kind of 'omigod, what have I done?' feeling. I had to smile at your "worse than with teenage guys" analogy, because being unfaithful is a lot like losing your virginity - ya can't take it BACK - only a lot WORSE. Yep, it's irrevocable. I understood for the first time that I had broken a sacred circle, that I could never 'undo' it. Boy, is that a painful moment. And I think that the nicer and kinder and more loving your spouse is, the worse you feel because you know they *really* didn't deserve this. Pond-scum city. (And deep inside your psyche, a little voice is saying, "yeah, and now I don't deserve a happy marriage", right?)<P>Maya, for me, this guilt and 'unworthiness' were the very hardest thing to deal with. I wasn't even aware for years that my deep-down self-loathing was continuing to poison our relationship. My inability to feel that I had a "suse" worth offering to Dunc as an equal, joyful partner made me emotionally unavailable to *him* and hurt *him* for YEARS (and eventually contributed to his brief affair last fall - he was depressed & had just plain given up hope with me). All because I didn't understand the dynamics of this guilt & how it was operating in our marriage. Dunc had forgiven me - truly - but I still held him at arm's length because I just couldn't open up to him.<P>Maya, I hope by sharing some of this, I can help you to avoid hurting your H and your marriage the way I did mine. I wasted SO many years. Depression also factored into it. I think that's true in your case too (HAVE YOU CALLED YOUR DOCTOR YET??? ).<P>Everyone here can see what a neat person you are, Maya. Maya needs to learn, or re-learn, that. If you're having trouble doing it for *you* right now, do it for your H. He certainly deserves for you to make every effort to find the Maya he loves; if you 'disappear' into a resigned co-existence, then your H's pain will have been in vain (and will, in fact, continue). He doesn't want to lose you to guilt and self-loathing any more than he wants to lose you to another man.<P>Maya, I can promise you that a great deal of the pain you're feeling will lessen with time. You are a very intelligent, moral person with very high self-standards, and letting yourself down this way IS earth-shaking. It feels like you will never get over feeling like a fool. But you eventually do. I did. <P>What I'm even more concerned about though is you & your H getting in the 'habit' of being distant and at arms' length. Of not dealing with a very deep feeling of the marital scales not being 'balanced' or of not being worthy of your H's love (i.e, so you don't offer him yours - sick paradox, huh?). This is poison to a relationship - it slowly suffocates it. He won't know why he's being rejected - he won't know it's because you can't stand *yourself*. <P>Keep plugging, Maya. You have painful issues here that need to be resolved. Don't give up now. BOTH you and your H deserve a special marriage. He LOVES you, and you *deserve that love*! And - he deserves *your* love. Don't punish him, or yourself, by leaving your healing half-done. <P>You have such an opportunity here to create a new marriage based on all your combined new wisdom. Show your girls how to do it. Give them knowledge & strength to take into *their* marriages. Don't you think God knows all the potential sitting in your lap right now? There are huge gifts in the midst of all this pain, Maya! <P>You don't have to do it all TODAY - "Rome wasn't built in a day" - I think you have a tendency to wear yourself out wanting everything to be done NOW, & looking at the whole enchilada instead of the next bite - but just don't give up on yourself or your marriage. How about: the next bite = getting your depression under control. You can't do anything else with that going on (trust me, I know).<P>Hang in there, girl, you're gonna make it. <BR>And... "I'll make you GO to the movies." (that better, you pervs Chris & LS?? )

Hi Suse,<BR> That was a very powerful post to Maya and one that has hit home. I was so upset with my H for not giving me any love and affection and he just looked at me and said"I can't figure it out, I think I just don't feel good about myself". He has always had high standards and I think he feels like he let himself down big time. Thank you for saying these things so eloquently....it's much easier if there is some UNDERSTANDING of what the other person is going through......Lu

Dear Maya,<P>Because I know you are a Christian, I'm going to reply to you as a sister in the Lord. This isn't meant to offend anyone, and this is meant only for Maya - and directly to her.<P>By believing that you are "tainted" or "unforgivable", you are lessening the ability that Christ had when he died on the cross for your sins. In some ways, maybe you are thinking that his death wasn't enough. That your sin was bigger than Christ? That is a lie, hogwash, bologne, and you are hearing that lie in your mind from a source other than God. God paid the entire price for your sin with His shed blood. <P>By saying that your sin was too big for Christ, is like saying that Christ wasn't big enough. <P>You are forgiven. It is the accuser that is trying to get you to believe that you aren't. Hold your head high, Maya. You are forgiven, and God only sees you through Christ, white as snow. Jesus was thinking of YOU when he was on that cross. He was thinking of YOU when he was resurrected. <P>God's peace to YOU!<BR>TNT

Thanks, TNT. I know that too well! I know that nothing is too awful for God to forgive thru Christ's shed blood.<P>Why can't I get it? Why can't I let it be enough? My "head" knowledge knows it's enough, but my heart knowledge isn't letting it sink in.<P>I know that I'm acting like Christ's death wasn't enough for this sin. And that is so so so so so so so stupid. Good Grief, TNT, I've heard this since I was a child.<P>Now I've reached a crisis of faith. What do I really believe and how am I going to let it impact my life? It's a crossroads I'm standing at, ya know?<P>Frustrating too. I'm sure God's up there tapping His foot going, "I wish she'd get this so I can give her all these blessings I have waiting for her."<P>But thanks for reminding me of what I already know and need to apply!!! I do appreciate you caring!

{{{{{Maya}}}}}<P>I wish were words to help take away the pain, but I know there aren't any. I do feel for what you are going through as it is what I know my wife is going through. The world as you knew it will never be the same. My wife was dumped by her OM for another woman and we are now seperated. She can't eat, sleep, looks like she is going to crack up, and is demanding a divorce.<P>I've spent a lot of time this year looking at myself and my prior behaviors and the pain I caused my wife and sons. When the reality of how I had treated them sank in, I literally didn't want to exist any more. I had messed up too bad. I'm too smart and educated to mess up that bad. They deserve someone better. But, in this there is peace and joy found because I saw a glimpse of how God sees me apart from the salvation that is in Jesus and really understood for the first time what grace was offered to me on the cross.<P>Who's the better person Maya: the person that successfully controls outward appearances and hides the 'sins' and looks moral and righteous from the outside or the person that makes a mistake but comes back to God with a contrite, broken, repentant heart and seeks to obey and please God. <P>The other lesson in all this for me and I hope for you is where do we focus our eyes and our thoughts? When we dwell on our circumstances and the past instead of focus on God on a daily basis, our emotions and our feelings take over. The emotions and feelings aren't bad (they were God created), but we are not to be controlled by them.<P>As Suse said, hang in there and go slow. You must learn to communicate with your husband - learn to communicate your thoughts and feelings in a way you can relate to each other.<P>Tom

Maya,<P>Be still and KNOW he is God! Quit trying so hard. Concentrate on Him, not on you.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>