From time to time I lurk on TOW...otherwise known as gloryb.com...I like to read the thought processes of the OP...especially the OW out there.

And wowie zowie! I read their message board and saw some DISTINCT SIMILARITIES that I believe we should be noting here. Seems the MB approach has gotten into the heads of the Wayward OPeople out there...On one forum, there is actually a sideline saying no MB words from BW ..or something close like that. Marriagebuilding? I am sure we're all tempted to fly onto that site and blast the idiots there into tomorrow. But I prefer to use their own stupidity against them by learning about them....how they work...their M.O. if you will.

And then I read stuff on the "ending" forum...for those who have ended their affairs.

I almost hurled!

Words like NC and letter were used. It seems THE OW OUT THERE ARE DOING THE WHOLE PLAN B AND LETTER SITCH TO end the marriages...or force the hands of their MM.

I am appauled! Most of the women however, it seems that their MM aren't taking the whole NC bait well. They just float back to their famililes. But the OW experience withdrawal...and they talk openly about how they feel about the BW...which makes me frightened.

One thing that is confirmed is that the role of BS is relegated to that of a sister...a partner, but minimized completely in the romantic sense. I guess that is how we are painted. Most men tell them that their W aren't bad...just their needs aren't met (usually in the sack) or that the emphasis is not on them anymore...anybody got a clue as to why? It's simple! Real life. Kids...the change that accompanies a normal relationship and marriage thru the years. Who in their right mind has sparks 100 percent after say being married eight or ten years? I'd love their secret...but it's the WS who seem to think this is what they are OWED!

So if we are plan A'ing and plan B'ing...and this site dedicated to the OW is telling them to somewhat do the same,

what in the heck do we do? I couldn't believe it when I read how one woman (ionizing was her name I think) was grieving over the loss of xMM. Yea, they use those initials. Their x married man. Bleech!

They yammer on and on about how they got flowers, romance, etc...and we get nothing!

Sick and frightening.

So I just wanted u to know that it seems our secrets are out. The forcing of the issue. The going dark. The NC...and the letter.

They are trying to use our secrets and weapons against us or so it would seem.

This wannabe jedi princess is home sick w/red throat w/her DS, age seven, having same thing.

I swear...I hate spin! And I hate it when somebody takes good moral principles and spins it to meet their sick needs.

JP no good ever comes of a BS reading that site. Really. It's literally evil.

That the techniques work for ill too is porbably an affirmation of their effectiveness for us.

Leave the site alone.

I don't see it often...but I look there maybe several times a year to see the "current mindset" of those people...

and it does seem they are trying to use it against us.

the old "well if it worked for them" line of reasoning.

I guess if the op are learning how we are combatting them, then they morph into doing what we do to try to illicit the same response.

I just worry that those really in process of fighting for their M, might have some toxic OP out there who's basically doing same thing for their own gain.

So if there's a man say on the fence, a cakeater, considering coming home after his W gives a NC letter...and there's this OW out there trying to get the H, and she sends a NC letter...what's gonna happen? I am voting the wife will win, but that this could be the sitch is really strange to me.

I still believe we need to understand the mindset of the OP...it is truly amazing. I heard so many rationalizations and lies that were actually believed from my xh's ow1 and ow2...HIs ow1, monkey actually believed my then H was "cheating" on HER with me when we reconciled. It is a bizarro world filled with reversal of roles...where in this case, it's the OW who feels like she is entitled to being treated as a W. That she sacrifices, "stands by her man", waits, and paitently sits while he's making choices to either end his marriage or not.

What I almost found even more interesting was how we are as BS in the minds of the WS as per the OP..we are like siblings. Not bad...just basically inhaling, using up 02, and taking up space. We're a function of habit basically...we are good moms, partners, and loyal...but the WS wants something more.

One woman I read about described herself as a "breath of fresh air (bleech...stinky air from over a sewer is more like it) in the life of her xmm." Implied that the mm had lived sort of a half life not really "living" with his W...and she described basically many marriages after say 10 years or even 3...Like it's some bad thing or something to have a mature loving marriage...

Reading that also gave me some insight into how the WS is perceiving their lives. They seem to feel they're missing something...something that is counter to the very life they are living.

I have searched for the why's and the reasons that push a normal married person over the edge...and I am always trying to learn about it. Guess I went thru ****** and want to make sure I can be of help to first, myself for my own future and the future of my son and I so that we do NOT make same mistake again, and secondly so that if I know anybody or meet anybody, I can truly help them and show them things that I myself either did not know when it happened to me, or was not yet discovered. Any way I can to help out to make sure at least one more family stays together happily...again...

The old psych minor in me along with the medical me is always looking for "why's" period.

But yea, they're using our tactics against us. But this always seems to be the case when a war is going on isn't it?

After reading about TOW here on MB, my curiousity was just too strong to resist. I came away not scared but somewhere between disgusted and sympathetic. These OW just don't get it, even those that are married. Some of them seem to even be OK with just having a part-time lover. I suspect, tho, after reading several threads on Endings that many of them never come to grips with the fact that most A do not lead to the WH leaving their wives and beginning a happy, loving R with the OW. It seems they like to somehow blame the BW for somehow "forcing" the WH to stay.

I did experience this a bit when the OW called me shortly after D-day. She kept asking me why I would want FWH to stay with me if he didn't want to. It never sank in that on discovering his A, I calmly gave him the option of leaving me for a life with her if that was what he wanted. His response was no way, she was the biggest mistake of my life. She would destroy any chance of happiness for me.

Maybe the only way that they can keep a shred of dignity is to convince themselves that all BW are fat, unattractive, shrews who hate sex.

Plus I think my learning all about this has truly helped me in my divorce recovery. It is helping me learn...and how to relearn a few things for my future.

I swear Bob...I did not know what I was up against. That was just a few years ago...and I am sooo much more well prepared and understanding and some of the principles have a bit changed...example: I think I stayed too long in plan A, for what I had done to be truly effective.

But learning is what helps me now. Helping heals my soul. I swear I don't want one more family to endure this if I can help it.

So many of us when we first come here are so sad...so depressed...and they don't know what to do first. If we know what's happening on say, the other side..the Ws and OP side...then we do add to the advantage of knowing...and how to combat them. What I have done say a few times a year, is I read...notice SIMILARITIES present...and think on it. I also notice SIMILARITIES in supposed words of WS. It does help.

And yes, WS do seem to follow almost a script..a handbook, if you will.

What I have found interesting is the "why" the OP even stays. Why are they there? What is their payoffs? It makes sense to me to learn about it. I have learned a few things...seems their courtship with their taken partner is swift, usually sweeps them off feet, unexpected, and the OP feels like they need to "save" the married person after that. I think it's the swift escalation of the relationship (usually the sf) which distorts the thinking of the rational of the OP. They feel they've met "the real deal"...and usually it's only been a short while in reality. Their married partner is usually married for at least several years and has history with their spouse.

There is even a book they tout on the site you can buy...called "your boyfriends' divorce".

A whole subculture does exist. we gotta break it down and use the weaknesses therein to do it.

Unfortunately, all the fat and ugly will not make up for moral depravity, which is truly putrid and ugly.

Never heard of such a place but it sounds positively wretched...why in the name of all that is holy would you be curious about what goes on in a sewer? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Touche melody! But their ugly is not apparent as much to me and their depravity as the fact that I honestly believe these OP are a bit mentally off...

It's that they meet somebody. He or she turns out to be married. The r escalates quickly with sf almost immediate. The married person hasn't felt this adrenaline rush in years (b/c they're in a mature loving relationship with real life day to day stuff), and they also think stupidly "this is the one...this is how it should be". The married person spouts out all this b/s about a life together. They both secretly dream about destroying the M. The OW/OM sticks around...and because of the intensity of the new R, they feel that they will be victorious. That if they sacrifice enough, do all that we aren't seemingly doing as BS as right, and what not, that their married person will leave their marriage partner.

That's pretty much the whole anatomy of an affair.

And the OP. There are the really bad ones I suspect which end up posting there. They feel as entitled as a W. Which is scary to me.

I remember just a few weeks ago when my xh's now W said to me: WEll he cheated on me when we were engaged. I said to her: How can you be engaged to a man when he's ALREADY MARRIED WITH A CHILD? She: (shocked)...i guess I didn't think of it that way.

See? The OP out there reframe it. I honestly don't thnk my xh's now W even thought about me .01 second. She saw me as yesterday's news. Or she didn't think about it b/c it was uncomfortable for her.

They reframe life.

The minimize us, the BS...enlarge themselves...and attempt to become each day a larger and larger part of the WS life. They want the WS to become emotionally dependent on them. They want exactly the same thing as single people want from a relationship...but that their partner is actually legally married. And they don't get it that what they are doing is harmful..wrong...etc.

I say if we're to fight fire with fire, let's learn about them. For us who arne't in the fight for our lives at the moment, let's put the OP under the microscope. Deconstruct their ideas..and use it to save our families.

I do not believe that people who are actively fighting for their M should go there.

It is still hard for me to read some of it. But I have learned alot. And I know how when I remarry one day, the little steps along the way I shall take to change the course of the future...I use MB techniques even when dealing with my friends. It's a moral, decent, and good way to live basically.


But for some of us who are able to help those fighting it does give excellent insight. Again, we are a bit more removed from the drama in our own lives to be able to accomplish this.

You do have to know the enemy. If not, you can't beat them.

Camo,



Because I have wondered why the OW in my FWH A could even conceive that he would leave his wife, home, family, job, etc. for her. Although he claims he told her from the beginning that he loved me and had no intention of leaving me, she grew increasingly demanding and once he expressed a desire to end the A, she did everything thing in her power (suicide threats, faked pregnancy, hysteria, begging, threatening to tell me) to keep him in the A.

She LB'd him running back to me with a greater appreciation that he ever had of what he almost lost. On TOW, I saw the same frame of thought in many of the posts. They really do live in a deluded, self indulged fantasy world. It is a sewer, yes, but one they seem to chose over a healthy R.

Well my satisfaction in this whole thing is what to OP ends up fighting so hard for ends up turning out to be something not so valuable (or desriable)... A cheater.

And from the other side they are stuck with someone who obviously has no moral obligations whatsoever.

Its no wonder these relationships have only a 3% success rate.

Miker

I just want us to be straight-talking, straight shooting, stand up and fight for your families MB kind of people.

And in order to be straight shooting, you gotta figure out which guns...to use on the enemy. The enemy is a WS...not your W or H. And the OP is the enemy. What ammo works best with which one? And how and when is the scenario right to use the chosen ammo?

Like I have a cold right now. It could be a flu. It could be bacterial or viral. And to fight it properly, my doc will tell me which it is and we'll use the right pharma to combat it.

I just think we increase our odds of success by analyzing the shortcomings and fallacies of the thinking of the enemies of a family.

peach, I mean no offense, but I think I'll let you go right ahead and dabble in the sewer for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> LOL

Seriously, though, I'm just getting past what momentary evil fell on my own little family, I'm not out to save the entire married human race just yet. But if you want to go study the enemy, I'll be glad to listen to the training briefing! Ack...sorry, I get enough of that kind of talk in my everyday life. Just spent two hours last night helping my husband with a presentation for a training briefing today, so if you'll forgive me, I'm bowing out of the military talk.

ANYway...I never wanted to believe there were sane (ok, that's a stretch) people who actually went after married folks, but apparently there are. Ick. I hope they spend a lot of time in Miami before they die so he11 doesn't seem so hot! Wasn't the situation for my H's affair. Neither he or FOW went looking for anything--just never protected themselves from their own selfishness and refused to set boundaries. And if I have to watch out for anything, it's couples we get close to. Lovely, huh?

peachy, would you like a good non-narcotic homemade cough remedy?
3-2-1 Cough Syrup
3 parts honey
2 parts vegetable oil
1 part lemon juice

First, pour the veg oil into the spoon, then the honey will slide off easily. Add lemon juice last. Add a few drops of hot water to help mix it up.
[color:"red"] [/color] WARNING TO PARENTS WITH BABIES LESS THAN 12 MONTHS OLD! DO NOT GIVE YOUR BABY HONEY, BECAUSE THEY COULD CONTRACT BOTULISM POISONING. THEIR LITTLE SYSTEMS AREN'T READY TO FIGHT IT IF THERE IS ANY IN THE HONEY.

Feel better.

As to visiting the OW site, I think it's part of your self-therapy and healing process. Yeah, they are nervy, stealing from MB, but with the internet, anybody can go anywhere.

justpeacher...

At first I thought what really was the point of going there but then I could not resist and went to check it out and i tell you I was in shock!

I think you are right...it helps to know your enemy...It shocked me to the core to realize how very differently the OW (there don't seem to be OM) think...I was shocked! I imagined them to think very differently!

Most shocking was the support that they all were giving each other and saying how lucky WM was to have known her since she was a wonderful person! I wanted to puke!

Daisy

They are borrowing from MB...I am telling you girl! The whole stuff...

And them supporting each other? What planet thinks this is acceptable?

And they do switch roles...they BELIEVE they are even more entitled and important than the BW.

I have thought this was happening in my case for some time!!!!

my husband said to me "ow husband will never want full custody of the children. She has always been the DOMESTIC SUPPORT in that relationship"

and when i talked to OW to ask her to walk away from my H....she said "He needs ADMIRATION and was craving AFFECTION. He wants a COMPANION to do things with. He needs someon who is OPEN and HONEST with him"

either she is on that site or he told her about the book "surviving an affair" after he did the emotional needs test.

either way...this is why i am up against such a difficult situation...I KNOW IT

but i told Jennifer Harley my thoughts and she said it doesn't matter....that the OW can't keep it up for long becuase the taker in them will cause them to love bust since the affair is bassed upon emotion not upon committment. she said that it is like in her father's book " buyers, renters, and freeloaders"....the OW is a renter who will meet his needs as long as he is meeting is but the minute that one of them tips the scale so that they begin to want more than they are giving or stops meeting the other persons needs and they are unhappy, they will move on (the renters philosophy)

on the other hand...we are buyers...we are in this for the long haul....good and bad because our relationship is based upon committment, give and take, and forgiveness.

but it still makes me sick that she not only gets to have the chance to meet his needs....she knows exactly what those needs are!!

Have to post this...it is a quote from tow online...apparently you all will get the drift...they are learning..and using it directly against families and marriages.

If you're not strong, or if you're not ready to read this stuff...then PLEASE DO NOT!

But if you're ready to go to war with them...then read on...

I was utterly sickened by what I just cut and pasted. I'd like to think of myself now as the 'OW NIGHTMARE'...

Here is part of a thread I am cutting and pasting:

(((H-----+)))

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I have not had a DDay, but I have read extensively on Marriage Builders and Surviving Infidelity. I understand their philosophy, but I wish I could convince the people on there that OW are people, too!! and have a tremendous amount of pain at the situations they are in, after being promised many things by the OM!!

I have emailed personally a few people on SI- men asking if they should contact the OW anyway. I said YES!! She deserves closure and you need to do that for her!!! I hope they listened.

Breathe...breathe..and try to get outside today and walk, even if it is only around the block. You will feel a little better, I promise!!! PLEASE take care of yourself and try so very hard not to contact him during this time. I think it is volatile and MM wouldn't be coherent enough now to talk with you calmly. Give him a few days to let the dust settle.
__________________

They are talking about going dark basically. They actually talk of a NC...and they joke and laugh about how the MM will slink back after they've been somewhat held against their will...by joint agreement...full disclosure stuff. One woman on there was upset...and saddened b/c WH sent her a NC email basically..and she suspected as per our principles, he was having to show her all his emails...

She even went on to say that she may have been doing marriagebuilding...

OMG!!!!

The levels these scumbags sink to is faaaaar beyond my comprehension. Helping others help families fail? I cant get it.

If they hate us doing that...the full disclosure...THEN DISCLOSE AWAY!

They HATE D DAYS! yea, they call it that too...THEN LET'S EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE AND GIVE EM' WHAT THEY DON'T WANT...well, besides herpes or crabs or something.

Find out WHAT MAKES EM NUTS..AND MAKE EM NUTTIER I SAY! LET'S GO FOR THE JUG VEINS FOLKS...

excuse me while i puke!!!

they may be people but they are not moral people and they are not husbands or wives....at least to the person they are with!!