The actual details of my wife's affair would surprise no one. Basically, we have 2 young kids and she is a stay at home mom who discovered that going out was more fun than staying home. While out she discovered some friends without young kids and met up with a single older guy that quickly pursued her. One thing led to another and the affair was underway. The affair lasted for a little more than 3 months. I discovered it just about 3 months ago. The best I can gather is she ended the 'affair' with him about 3 weeks back to "stay" with me because she couldn't leave what we had.

Now that I've gone through some of the history I'd like to start up with the present that is bothering me. First, even though she claims that she is not in contact with him I know that she still talks to him on a daily basis. My wife may even believe that to be innocent as she may honestly believe it's just friendly now. He is continuing to try and win her back with cell phone messages and e-mails. I do believe that they are not spending time together but she's also not spending very much time with me either. She has joined a gym, a kickboxing class and started spending more time with some female friends. I know that these are suspicious activities but I have sources that say she is legitimately doing most of them.

Finally, I think everyone is starting to get a sense of where my problem lies. First, I know she is still talking to him but exposing how I know would come across as a huge love buster. Also, getting her to stop doing some of her other activities comes across as a huge love buster. Lastly, talking to her about anything that implies that I don't trust her comes across as a huge love buster. I guess my thought is that I'm still very much stuck in Plan A as much as I hope for recovery.

As for me I'm trying to do my best to fill all the emotional needs that I'm allowed. She is even willing to meet some of my needs too. We have started being intimate again (she even initiated it a couple of times) and we are exchanging "I love you's", hugging and kissing. We make plans for the future and talk about different things we are going to do. I know that some of the problems that openned the door for this affair is that she was getting stressed out being home with the kids, I wasn't spending enough liesure time with her and I wasn't giving her enough attention and affection. Some of these things I can't change but what I can I'm more than willing to try to change.

So to put this sad story to an end, I've known about the affair for just about 3 months and from that time to now some progress has been made. When I first found out she told me that she still was going to see him and was spending almost every day with him. Since then most of our friends have learned about it and none of our mutual friends support it. I think that exposure has helped. Now, she claims that she is staying but she is clearly not putting in 100% effort. Honestly, I feel that she is trying but she's having some difficulties. I know we have a long road ahead of us and obviously I'm anxious to get to a recovery stage. I'm just trying to understand that even though things are still weird I do believe some real progress is being made. I know some are going to say "wake up" she's cake eating but I don't believe that's quite what's happenning and besides that's kind of what Plan A is all about.

Is this typical for Plan A's? Should I be putting more pressure on her or should I accept what she is willing to give at this point and just continue to try to make as many love bank deposits as possible? Any suggestions?

Thanks!

She needs to have no contact with him for your marriage to recover. The fact that she is still talking to him daily is a problem. Recovery comes AFTER there is no contact.

/

Your title indicates you still lack some understanding of MB principles. THERE CAN BE NO MOVING TO RECOVERY UNTIL ALL CONTACT WITH OM IS STOPPED.

Your WW is manipulating you with crumbs. She has developed a cake eating strategy to keep you off her back and continue right along with her affair. Her anger is to be ignored...it is another manipulation tool to keep you in line. Read up on reverse babble. I would surmise that as long as she's in contact with OM she has NOT made any progress.

On the other hand, YOU may have in fact made some progress. You have changed and in Plan A perhaps effectively demonstrated your changes.

How long have you been Plan A'ing?
How long are you committed to Plan A?

I think it is time you read more about Plan A. You are in the postition of doing nothing hoping everything will change around you. As you are the only one fighting for your marriage it may be time to get in the fight and take some action.

Suggestions. Find Pepperband's Carrot and Stick post regarding Plan A. Please read Johng's current thread. Another thread that may be of interest is JDINSD. John just stood up for himself this past weekend with hopeful results. JD is hopefully in the process of doing the same.

Mr. Wondering

It is all well and good for you to say, "I'm here for you forever"--but, it isn't true. If she doens't change, then sooner or later, you will get tired of her conduct and you will pull the plug on the M. It is inevitable.

You and she have to realize that most Ms don't recover from an A. If she is not going to work on the M, then the M is doomed. You and her need to face that simple fact.

The idea of Plan A is for the BS to change his/her behavior to demonstrate to the WS that things aren't as bad as WS thought they were. I.e., BS is showing WS a willingness to change the dynamics of the M so that WS can have a rich and fulfilling M.

If you've made that showing, then it is her turn to step up to the plate and commit to MC (marriage counseling) or IC (individual cousneling).

She will continue in this "tire spinning" or "cake eating" mode as long as she can.

No Contact means "no contact"--no phone calls, no text messages and no emails. You have to get there if you want to have recovery.

I agree, recovery only comes after absolutely "no contact" has been established. I'm not sure I agree that most M's don't recover but at this point statistics aren't a focus of mine.

I have been commited to Plan A for about 3 months and am willing to go 6 months. I definitely am trying to show my WW that things can change and I can provide a rich and fulfilling M. Initially, most of my offerings she wasn't willing to receive. As far as I can tell she is gradually accepting more from me. I know there is still contact but there could also be progress. Hopefully, we can reach a point where she realizes all that is possible and accepts my outstretched hand, gets real and tells me truth or I'll have to move on to Plan B. My understanding of the goal of Plan A is to get her to separate from him completely in a nice manner. That is, depositing all I can in the love bank and avoiding love busters. I've been reluctant to rock the boat at times as that would introduce some love busting. I plan that for when I don't note any more progress.

It sounds like you are doing everything that you can do. There are limits as to what you can accomplish without her active help.

It might help to suggest MC. You might be able to get a read on where her head is from her response to the suggestion.

/


IMO, you need to begin to apply a little more of the "stick" in your situation. Still Plan A. But a little more pressure on the situation. I, too, grew complacent in what I was getting. We were lucky that the OM in our lives ended the affair for my wife. But that was after I interferred with their contact to some degree.

In hindsight and now that my wife is completely out of the fog I have learned here and from her how much power I actually had to end the affair earlier. IMO you are going to win eventually whether you press the issue or not, so press it.

The statistics are that over 80% of affairs do not result in divorce. I would argue that with MB principles that number is higher. The numbers indicate that only 3% of marriages that result from affairs survive 5 years. Someday you will get the opportunity to save your marriage. The stronger you fight for your marriage the more backbone you will be perceived to have by WW. This is an attractive trait that your wife will notice.

Right now your wife and OM are probably having the same conversations my wife had...they can not believe you are sitting back and taking this crap. OM is one-uping you with what "He'd do" if he were in your shoes...and it is not pretty being made out as the walkover by such loser.

I've been there. Left alone they are only solidifying their bond. You must continue to disrupt them despite your wifes hostility. Her anger you can overcome, her affair, if left alone, you may not.

Think it over and discuss your plan.

Mr. Wondering

Slash, I posted this to you on August 31. You are going to have to take the steps to END all contact between you WW and the OM, in order to get into recovery.

"Hi Slash...

Sorry things are so tough for you right now, but that's the way it will be for a while. I know your mind will wonder whether it's worth it to stick with your W... and of course, that's entirely up to you.

I will tell you this... if your W is still in contact with the OM, counseling for her is a waste of time and money. When she's residing in the fog, the only things that make sense to her are the lies she's been telling herself to "allow" her to be involved with the OM. And that's the truth. You may, however, set up an appointment with a marriage counselor for yourself, as an indicator to your W that you are serious about giving the marriage another chance.

If she's still in contact, and not making any effort to take steps to Protect you and give the marriage a chance...it's time for you to take action... EXPOSURE!

I assume you've finished Surviving an Affair and have a good idea what might have been lacking in your marriage before the A. I assume you have taken ownership of those things that are yours to own. I assume you are changing those things for the better, and keeping the positive changes in place. I assume you have remove all Love Busters from your interactions with your W. Now that's giving you a tremendous benefit of doubt. If you have not done the above, then you are not taking a course of action that will make a difference in your future.

We can offer you advice, but we can't MAKE you do any of what we suggest. Even though it doesn't seem fair at all, the heavy lifing in saving the marriage rests completely on your shoulders. It's entirely up to you what happens.

If your W is still in contact, then you must take the very difficult step of exposing the A. Until the A is over and NO CONTACT is in place for a reasonable amount of time, little will change.

I am sorry you haven't received other responses to your posts. You may want to "start over" with a post on General Questions II, as it is much busier than this one. I am weaning from these boards, as my work has become very demanding lately. I would like for you to receive more than just my guidance, as perhaps it would be more believable for you.

You need to post as many facts as possible when you do post, so people have as much as possible to base their responses on. Slash, the less you do, the less progress will be made. The more you do, based on these MB principles, the more you will make a difference in your future, and, the better you will feel about yourself for having done so."

Best wishes,
SD

My biggest problem is that I feel as if I'm in a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. My wife used to demand my time and attention. In fact, her and I went through a rough patch a couple of years ago because I couldn't take her being so demanding of my time. I don't think that it was wrong of me to get some time for myself but I also know that the subsequent lack of time and attention was an issue. As I said in my initial post she has joined a kickboxing class, joined a gym and continues to schedule girls nights out. I play hockey once or twice a week. So for the most part between all of our activities we really aren't spending any time together. To me, this is a real problem. If I ask her to spend time with me then I'm "nagging" her. She says she is doing things that are good for her and I should be supportive. I do believe that she is doing most of these things but I worry that without us spending time together we will never reconnect. Any suggestions for this type of situation?

As for exposure she actually did all of the exposing herself. I talked to all involved and she didn't 'color' up what happenned. None of them really support the affair so that card is pretty much already played out. It helped and it probably got her to the point of saying she is "staying" however now I'm faced with ending all contact. She has agreed to "no contact" and the only way I know that they still talk is through avenues she can't know about (ie. friends, etc.). I'm not sure how to break through the next wall. I'm thinking it's through a continued Plan A but at some point I have to feel that I have enough of an upper hand to apply more 'stick'.

Why not hire a PI?

I still wonder if you ever bought "Surviving an Affair" and read it???

SD

Yes, I do own Surviving an Affair and have read it once. I'm going to re-read it as my retention seems to be failing me these days. There isn't much that makes sense and my mind is mostly aflutter.

I understand that!

Read again about exposure. So long as contact continues, and you are doing nothing to "assist" in ending the contact, you are essentially enabling the A to continue.

Stay positive, refresh your knowledge w/SAA, and "get ready to rumble".

SD

I know that she is still in contact with him based on what her friends have told me and her cell phone usage. For different reasons, I don't think that I can use either of these to rebuke her claim that she has ended all contact with him. I know that I have to approach her some way regarding contact with him. Also, I'm sure many will claim she's cake eating and I fully acknowledge that she may very well be. However, there is an off chance that she's 'trying' as she has claimed and if that's the case how do I push her into taking the next steps of ending all contact in a positive manner? Or is this purely a time when nothing is solved without using a stick?

Also, I'm sure many will claim she's cake eating and I fully acknowledge that she may very well be. However, there is an off chance that she's 'trying' as she has claimed and if that's the case how do I push her into taking the next steps of ending all contact in a positive manner? Or is this purely a time when nothing is solved without using a stick? Yes, this is "stick" approved, even recommended...that's how powerful it is.

The exposure process is one step "approved" by Dr. Harley when it's "OK" to upset your WW. It is the number 1 weapon in a BS arsenal to break up the A.

And/or this. You play poker? You good a bluffing? Just tell your W you KNOW contact is still taking place (in a very calm, controlled delivery) Casually inform her you KNOW she's in contact, and so long as she stays even in casual contact, her heart has no chance of returning to you, but DO NOT give up your sources. Just bluff her with the information and let her KNOW you KNOW. And in a calm, collected, confident way, totally without attitude or emotion. Just the facts!

Re-read SAA, come back to the forums with new questions, and we'll talk you through the process.

You can do this!

SD

PS: Do you have a couple of "intimidating" friends who could pay a visit to the OM, who could let him know you love your wife, and are working very hard to save your marriage, and his interaction with your W is thwarting your efforts, in those words, without "overtly threatening" the OM? Also, if I remember, the OM is a "shoulder to cry on" for other women? If so, hire a PI to catch the OM with other women, in as compromising a situation as possible, and make this information available to your W? Just another thought!

I've been doing my best to follow what was outlined in "What to do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #1". I thought that Plan A/Plan B coincided with it but I'm beginning to think that they are distinct. There seems to be no indication that I should be rocking the boat now. In fact, I think enough people know about what's going on now and even his friends are starting to be annoyed by it. Perhaps they both will end up friendless. This would be a good thing as it would kill the environment that I think she enjoys more than the actual relationship. No one that has been exposed or used in all of this isn't annoyed by it and the lies being spewed.

So back to where my dilemna is building. My job as detailed in the response to letter #1 is as follows.


As far as I can tell this article is all carrot and no stick. It's not an easy bit to follow right now but seems to be applicable to my situation. However, as the article warns the "Taker" comes out in me every now and then. That does cause problems. It came out last night and it erupted into a fight that led to nowhere. Basically, I played poker about knowing something was going on (I know more than I can provide proof) and she did the standard WS stuff. She vehemently denied it and said she would move out on her own. I think to follow either Plan A/Plan B or the above method I need to do what I can to keep her in our house until I'm done. At the end of the evenning she was mad at me but did come home. I beleive that she was headed to see him which I hope turns out to cause problems in the end. Today she is still in our house and less mad.

So now I'm thinking, "Does Plan A/Plan B go with letter #1 or are they exclusive?" Maybe I should have titled this post from letter #1 to recovery. I have done the reading and the two options seem contain enough contradictions that they can't be done together. Or maybe just like my life, I don't understand any of it.

Bump... Thoughts? Maybe the above is a new topic?

Slash...

Plan A is truly the carrot, but exposure is the "stick" that's allowed as a part of Plan A. Plan B is only to be done after a flawless Plan A has been done over an extended time, one set by you and what you can take of her foggy spew.

At this time she appears to still be completly in the fog, and keeps you at bay with threats and nasty remarks about how your are controlling her, blah, blah, blah.

Obviously, I don't know you personally, but I get the idea you are hesitant to rock the boat, or go on the offensive a bit. If you are comfortable with this, and believe the "carrot" side of Plan A over some additional time will be beneficial to your cause, then by all means, go in that direction.

Make certain you have done a serious amount of introspection and began making Permanent changes in those areas you KNOW your W would like to see you change. In fact, sit down with her and apologize for those shortcomings, and ask her what contributions you bring to the marriage need changing or improving. Keep it calm and almost professional, rather than emotional. Don't defend yourself and argue at that time, just LISTEN, and take to heart what she has to say. Turn on your FOG FILTER, and let the crap filter away, but keep the pearls of truth that may emerge.

Any time you can encourage open and honest dialogue, without Anger or any other lovebusters is a step in the right direction. If spousess we really good at communicating with each other, there'd be a lot fewer affairs.

Slash, if you'd post on a more regular basis, you might get more input. Just a thought. Wishing you nothing but the best....

SD

Slash maybe there's something here that can help you somehow. I also confronted WW about contact - in MC - without saying how I knew. As with your case my WW denied.

After that I told our MC (WW was absent) how I knew WW was still in contact. MC was convinced, also shocked - he said people seldom tell outrageous lies to a MC.

Next MC session I again confronted WW without saying how I knew. That time MC supported me, and WW buckled and admitted contact. Unfortunately to make the point firmly enough for her to buckle I felt I had to give enough info that my source was more or less revealed, so I lost my source. But anyway her admission changed things significantly.

Soon after that I exposed to OMW; that may have been the beginning of the end of WWs A. In retrospect in my case I should have exposed before trying to get WW to go NC.