I think I've figured something out...(some of you may think this obvious)...

I have been reviewing Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage".

One of the foundational points of the book is that marriage partners must be well differentiated in order to survive the turmoil inherent in marital "growth".

What does it mean to be well differentiated? That's the million dollar question. Up until this point, I believed that I had come to a point where I was well differentiated.

I've realized that's not true. In fact, we are a very emotionally fused couple...both paralyzed by the fear that engaging in behavior that challenges our relationship will result in its demise. If anything, I am probably the least differentiated partner in our relationship. I have been using my wife's retiscense as an excuse to avoid doing the things that I want to do...I have not been acting with integrity.

I had asked the question "How do I push my wife into her crucible?" I've realized that I can't. However, if I begin to act with integrity...to behave in a differetiated fashion...she will be faced with responding to that.

She will have to choose; Does she get angry and blame me for upsetting the balance or does she look inside of herself to determine how she can grow from this.

One of Schanrch's illustrations is very much like my situation. A wife wanted her H to engage in a certain fantasy. He sidestepped. It was important enough to her to stand up for it. So she forced him out of his "comfort" cycle. How? You'll need to read the book, but it basically revolved around her doing what was important to her (maintaining her integrity) and giving him the choice to either get with the program or get off the bus.

Growth occur's by driving the relationship to the brink of destruction...out of it's comfort cycle. One partner can do this.

So, I will be like the wife in Schnarch's book. I will behave with integrity...and pursue those things that are important to me. My wife won't be happy about it. The conflict...and pressure will drive change in both of us. She will enter her crucible...whether she likes it or not.

I think this is a bit at odds with Harley's take on "independent behavior" and "POJA".

The implications of Scharch's book is that POJA will drive boredom and apathy in a marriage with emotionally fused couples because it doesn't seem to accommodate serious conflict. That condition could ultimately result in an affair or other escape behavior. In fact, POJA in my situation only results in paralysis...because we cannot come to an enthusiastic agreement. Therefore we do nothing.

This is the behavior that set up the conditions for my affair.

Low

Good point, LB.

quote:----------------------------------------------------
In fact, POJA in my situation only results in paralysis...because we cannot come to an enthusiastic agreement. Therefore we do nothing.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Any 'bad faith' behaviour going on?

Low,

I have recently read the book. My MC asked me to read it. For me it was a dicicult read. I had to go back and re-read alot.

It made me really think. I am sure I should read it again. One thing it did do was form a bond between my husband and I that we have never had. We have worked on trying things that the book suggest and it has worked.

Please share more. Maybe I will understand a little better by hearing what you or someone has to say.

What you are saying I think is if you push someone to the edge they are going to reach out or jump. My question to you is are you prepared if the jump?

I hope you will make sure to give her the choice and not just go ahead and do what's important to you. I'm referring to the importance of also being OPEN AND HONEST with her.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Please elaborate.

No, I am not. I hope this will be part of MY growth...

Interesting...

It does sound to me like a fine line between being "selfish" and "personal growth" though?

I'm a huge advocate for personal growth, but not at all costs. I think there has to be balance and priorities that both partners agree with. Its sort of like agreeing on the big stuff and being free to improvise and grow on the little stuff.

But then again what do I know... I'm divorced! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Miker

I think you are alluding to the thought that I might want to go off and do whatever without involving her at all. This is not the case.

For example...I want to go out and listen to live jazz.

I will tell her that I'm going. I will tell her the vitals...who, what, when, where, how. I will make it clear that I would prefer her company over going alone...but I'm still going.

Then she has a choice to make.

LOW:

I haven't read PASSIONATE MARRIAGE. However, I have concerns, too.

Sounds like independent behavior is being advocated. That's different than both partners sharing and recognizing their differences. That's OK with me.

My FWH and I became too independent, doing our own things.. and became the opposite of enmeshed or fused which is "disengaged". That can be a major problem in
a relationship as well...

Actually, the line is not so fine. It is rather stark.

When the concept of maintaining one's personal integrity enters the equation, it becomes apparent that engaging in purely selfish behavior results in compromised integrity. Whereas non-POJA behavior that is required for personal growth does NOT violate personal integrity.

For example...I could not justify the decision to engage in adultery as an act of integrity. I could not be considered a legitimate path of "personal growth".

Low,

After reading the book I do understand what you are saying. I agree that sometimes you have to force someone to choose. If you do not they will sit on the fence forever.

For me it really depends on the issue. I have always struggled with making decision's. I am getting better. Sometimes it is nice to be made to choose.

Who says, Orbit?

I'm sorry.

This is sounding like a rationalization to me.

Can you give an example of this type of behavior?

Low,

I haven't read the book so I will just comment on what you said here.

What I come away with just reading this post is something I have seen over and over again.Differentiation means,to me,on a very basic level, just being different.Of course we are right? So when you come to marriage,it is the joining of two *individuals.Not a fusing of one.You are supposed to have diffferent likes,desires,thoughts,dreams.No two people are alike.Of course you may have some similarities along the way,that's fine too.

But what all this means is that the marriage becomes the prize and for some,that isn't enough to fight for anymore.It comes down to what do I want to do and I don't care if it negatively affects the marriage.POJA certainly can impose difficulty in marriage since, as I have said before,someone usually ends up having to forgo some kind of activitiy that may have been pleasurable to one but is not in agreement with the other.Not always but for many couples.I like to think that if it's healthy and safe then I wouldn't see how I could not agree to POJA with my spouse.I have always felt that we should not be controlling of one another in marriage.

An example being that my WH liked to sky dive.Now,I don't want to do that but I never stopped him from doing this thing he enjoyed and what I thought was dangerous.I was happy that he was happy.If we are talking porn viewing or the desire to frequent bars as another example,then no.That is something we would defintitely have to POJA and would probably have a very hard time coming to some form of agreement.

If a person wants to live life more like a single person than married then that can affect the marriage.Getting with the program or getting off the bus sounds more to me like "accept all that I do or forget you".Bringing a relationship to the brink of disaster is not my idea of growth either.It's taking a huge risk in it being damaged being repair.

I have read your posts for a long long time now Low.I don't often post to you but I see a pattern here that you keep bringing up.IMO,you feel as though your W will not let you live as you want and you are giving up too much of yourself to be in the marriage which in all honesty,doesn't sound happy at all acording to what I have heard.You've been at this for years now.She sounds very unenthusiastic about the things you want to explore and that makes you sad.Of course,your W isn't here to give her side of the story but I would seriously question still being in this marriage based on your posts.What is holding you in it right now? What positive things are there,anything?

To me,it comes down to,again,what is more important.The marriage being sound and the S being secure or wanting to live your life without the "intereference" of a S's decisions,opinions or needs getting in the way? It's not something that one can have both ways IMO.You either do respect and take into account the feelings of one you married or you don't.If doing things that your S doesn't agree with is more important than the marriage surviving then you have to ask yourself why am I married?



Sorry,this is a cop out to me.No conditions,atmospehere,environment or the planets not being aligned,etc is reason,cause or force to make the CHOICE to cheat.Low if you were unhappy then you should have D'd your W first.Instead,as all WS's do,you've plunged your family into such heartache and despair for years.And you sound very unhappy to me.Things aren't changing as you would like and you sound like you feel trapped in a "life of misery" even though you ended the A and you stayed in the marriage.It also sounds to me like you are so focused on these things you want to do and living a life a certain way instead of focusing on what you do have.Is this right or wrong? Is there any enjoyment carrying you through?

O

I don't believe that "disengagement" is necessarily the opposite of fused. "Disengagement" is a potential outcome...one of the CHOICES we make when faced with the oppotunity for growth.

My deciding to go see live jazz doesn't mean that I don't care if my wife come with me or not (disengagement). I do care...I want her to come. I will be disappointed if she doesn't. BUT...I am not longer going to violate my integrity because I'm afraid of disappointment or conflict.



Sure can...let's say I want to become a vegetarian or, for that matter, a Buddhist, yet my wife is vehemently opposed to this. Making this choice may be necessary for my own personal growth...it is very much in line with maintaining my integrity, but it is NOT something she is willing to POJA.

What should I do in such a case?

Low
Low

You are stepping out of the box to make yourself happy. You are experiencing your own personal growth.

That puts the ball in her court. It is up to her as to how she will respond to your change. I understand how this works but you have to be prepared for her reaction.

For me to push my husband to the edge, it would have to be something big. It would have to very important to me. A deal breaker type of move.

OG,

You are jumping to a lot of the same conclusions that I did when I read the book's jacket...and all of them were wrong.



That is NOT what is meant in this context. I don't want to rewrite Schnarch's book here...you should read it. But failure to grasp this concept sends you down all of the paths you went. I went there too.



And this is my realization...it's not my wife that's making me feel this way...IT IS ME!!! I'm using her as an excuse when I don't live my life fully so I can blame shift to her. I have been WRONG.



I have seen your thoughts on this before OG. Notice I did not say that it MADE me cheat. However, everything this website is based on says that poor marriage conditions can create an environment where a spouse might be more likely to choose infidelity. Unlike your assertion, yes, there can be an "alignment of planets" that make it more likely that you or any other spouse will choose infidelity. Does that necessarily mean you will? No it doesn't.



OG, the old "guilt" trick doesn't work on me anymore. I'm working on making my marriage better, not groveling over my error.

Some people may be happy living in a marital trailer park...I'm not one of them. I know we can move up town and that's what I want for US.

Marriage CAN BE wonderful. There is no cause to "settle" for marital mediocrity. There is no reason to settle for a LIFE of mediocrity.

Good and comfortable is the enemy of GREAT and FULFILLING and will KILL a relationship as quickly as neglect.

I will not settle for simply having the good when I KNOW that the GREAT is achievable.

Is there anything wrong with that?

Low

If you have not read the book you need to read it. It is a very good book. Alot of good information.

I do agree with Low, he is no longer going to sit back and use his wife as an excuse not to improve his self. He is going to make changes and that puts the ball in her court.

You use this method when your marriage is already in trouble. Change can only bring good. Either the two of you change together or one of you gets off the bus.

I do not think this is about where you go to dinner.

This is not how I understand or implement the POJA in my relationship. In fact, it bothers me a bit that POJA is often represented (or, misrepresented, in my opinion) as a way for a spouse to win by default by withholding consent. That's a quick, sure path to a bunch of resentment.

Now, I might be wrong, but how my H and I successfully implement the POJA is as follows:

The 'do nothing' part of the description does not imply that the person who wants to do an activity automatically defaults to not getting to do it if an enthusiastic agreement is not met. They way I read it, "Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of BOTH spouses" can just as easily apply to NEVER miss a concert without the enthusiastic agreement of both spouses." as it can apply to NEVER go to a concert without the enthusiastic agreement of both spouses.

What the DO NOTHING part applies to is that, when there's a disagreement, the ENTIRE WORLD stops while the two of you find a way to reach an enthusiastic agreement. I state it as: If one person has a problem with the marriage, then BOTH people have a problem with the marriage and the full resources of EACH PERSON will be brought to bear in order to find a solution that is acceptable to BOTH people. That is very, very different to "I can't go out and <do x> if my spouse doesn't want me to."

Just as it is important for you to find a way to help her be enthusiastic about you going if that's the ultimate solution, it's equally vital for her to find a way for you to be enthusiastic about NOT GOING if that's the eventual solution. It's a two way street. POJA is not finished until you both walk away enthusiastic. And, until POJA is finished, then the full focus and resources of both people should be focused on the problem to the exclusion of all else (except maybe comfort breaks for eating, sleeping, etc). If you do that, it reduces the set of problems that a couple can't fix to a very, very small number. And, you might be surprised at how quickly it can happen.

I think the biggest problem that I see in people getting the most out of POJA is that they both aren't equally invested in solving each and every problem and you end up with stonewalling behavior. Part of the reason for the hyperfocus on the issue is to increase the likelihood that both spouses will be equally invested in solving the problem. The "do nothing" literally means that you "do nothing" - you sit in a room together with the TV off and work this out - for as long as it takes. (And, if you really did that with a committment to stay there until you were done, then it's not going to take that long.)

Using the POJA as a club to get your spouse to stop doing behavior that s/he enjoys that you don't like is a SELFISH DEMAND. Hiding behind the idea that your spouse shouldn't do something that you're not enthusiastic about is just a way to justify bad behaivor. Negotiation is a give and take. Unless everyone walks away from the negotiation table with something s/he is enthusiastic about, you're not done.

Perhaps, a better approach might be to discuss with your wife some ways she can help you be enthusiastic about not going to jazz concerts rather than just accepting that you 'shouldn't' go or matching her lovebuster (selfish demand) with a love buster of your own (independent behavior). Perhaps, when faced with the idea of buying your enthusiasm you'll both find it's easier for you to engage her enthusiasm about you going or you really will find somethng that's just as good for you.



Mys

Mys said:



I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS!! GREAT IDEA!!

More comments...



I think you've got a good handle on this concept...but you embrace the potential for disaster rather than the potential for growth.

My affair DID show me something...it took a dramatic challenge to our relationship to create the growth we HAVE experienced. I am convinced that Schnarch is right about this. The trick is to find a way to become "differentiated" with integrity (as opposed to an affair).

Schnarch acknowledges that poorly differentiated couples risk marital collapse when one of both begin to differentiate themselves. The process of differentiation necessarily creates conflict and pressure...thereby spawning change. Spouses can CHOOSE disaster or growth. Assuming both are capable of acting with integrity, then both should make choices that create growth for the relationship.

These concepts also carry another underlying message...that no marriage relationship is worth preserving at the cost of sacrificing your personal integrity.

When you sacrifice your personal integrity to accommodate an unwilling spouse, you will lose respect for yourself and then your spouse beginning the descent into resentment and anger.

I think you're challengin me to prove to you how all this works out...I can't yet. I don't know how it does.

But it makes a lot of sense. But it's also obvious that it's the kind of thing that will take great courage to implement.

Low