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#1503158 10/18/05 07:43 PM
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I messed up royally today. It's my birthday and they were going to take me out to eat. I told my wife I'd like to go with just the kids.

NOT THE RIGHT THING TO SAY!!

She said "without me" and "that's not very nice" and left the room. I apologized later and she said it's over. Then she said all I want was affection and sex and admiration, and she can't give me that when I'm not nice to her. The kids looked so sad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Please pray for my kids and wife to make it through this.

HeartOnE #1503159 10/18/05 08:21 PM
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She didn't sit by me at church yesterday, and after church we went to different retaurants to eat lunch. She went with my daughter, and I took the boys somewhere else.
(From your other thread)

Why would you feel bad after this????


Me, 43
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It's just sad seeing your dreams and life crumble before your eyes. Everything I had is tied to my wife and kids.

I still had at least some hope that she would want to try to work things out.

HeartOnE #1503161 10/19/05 08:31 AM
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I know but you aren't to blame for that and you should apologize to her if anything it should be the other way around.


Me, 43
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I know we have both hurt each other and that we both need to apologize. What I said last night was very inappropriate since she was trying to do something nice for me. It's just that there has been so much tension between us that I would have had more fun without her there.

When I apologize she just gets angrier. I don't think she's capable of apologizing or admitting she has anything to do with our problems.

HeartOnE #1503163 10/19/05 12:10 PM
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Hi HeartOne:

You need to stop blaming yourself, you need to stop appologizing. Sometimes we don't want to hear how sorry men or women are, what's needed is a real and true demostration of "I need you to forgive me", how about some roses, how about a note telling her all the wonderful things she's done (this will show your admiration for her), when men don't realize what women do for them that's when we feel we are not being admired, therefore you need to write to her pointing out what she has done and that you actually notice those things.

If she wants intercourse maybe invite her over for dinner, cook for her, create a movie scenario for her.

You also need to stop looking at her mistakes, when you said what you said you made her feel that she doesn't do anything right. Remember that Dr. Harley says that in order to rebuild love you need to not trust, and for me this means DO NOT GET CONFORTABLE, she is still a woman and you are still a man with needs and mistakes.

Take action and stop battering yourself and her.


-Expect to be happy with yourself don't wait for others to do your job- Me - 31 - I believe in God's power H - 30 - Confussed with mediocer attempts to "talk" Married - 04/19/00 Separated - 09/26/05 Mariano, it's who you were when you were with me, and what you had that you so much miss. Open your eyes and you'll see how wonderful it's been meant to be.
hopetexas #1503164 10/19/05 01:39 PM
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I take her rose, I write her notes, I put prayers for her and us in her bathroom in the morning, I invite her to go out with me, I've made candlelight dinners for her,... I do something for her almost every day.

She says she doesn't like this affection and doesn't trust me. She says I'm just trying to manipulate her and get something in return.

My wife is a great person. Very friendly, smart, a great cook, a great mother, a great teacher, a great home designer, she looks great, very religious, ... and I tell her all of that. She just won't let me into her life.

HeartOnE #1503165 10/19/05 02:59 PM
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very religious, ... and I tell her all of that. She just won't let me into her life.

Do you see the contradiction in this???


Me, 43
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I'm sorry. I'm not thinking real well today. I'm not sure what being very religious has to do with her not letting me into her life. She can still be religious and still not be happy being with me.

It's a little tough for me right now. She told me to leave tonight. She needed some time to think. I think it is OK if I come home later tonight. So it is not a complete separation.

Our pastor was stunned that she wanted things to end. He said if she goes toward a divorce that they would confront her. They won't let her stay in the church if she divorces me.

What I did was wrong. What she did was wrong. How do we both get past this and work toward a better marriage? How do I get her to want to save the marriage?

HeartOnE #1503167 10/20/05 03:55 AM
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Heart,

Well that's a sucky developement. Sorry things went poorly.

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How do we both get past this and work toward a better marriage? How do I get her to want to save the marriage?


I think at this point there isn't much you can do. You've done alot and you continue to try despite her unwillingness to participate. It's really up to her to make a decision about who she wants to be, what her M should be and then to take steps towards that whether that be divorce or working on the M. It's great that you have the backing of the church and pastor. She is free to make whatever choice she wants but there are consequences and she will be held accountable. If she wants it to be over then she files, not you. If she wants a separation then she leaves not you. You don't have to leave. It's your home.

To be honest, although it may have been hurtful to her to know you didn't want her to go along for your B-day it is a consequence of her actions and behavior. She has to accept that. You have to be honest about how you feel. I don't know that an apology on your part is necessary. If you feel the need then maybe something along the lines of "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt. We aren't acting as a married couple and our family is broken. I wanted to spend my birthday with the ones who I know want to spend time with me and who I get joy from being with. Under the circumstances I can't help but feel the way I do."

Hugs,
Symphony

PS- Happy birthday!


[color:"purple"]Men go to far greater lengths to avoid what they fear than to obtain what they desire.
The Da Vinci Code

Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all.
Dale Carnegie

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
Ralph Waldo Emerson[/color]
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Thanks! It really helps to have someone listen to me.

I wrote her a letter last night while I was gone saying just about what you said. I told her I wanted to be with her and I wanted us to be a family. But I said I can't make she stay or make her love me. (I woke up with that song on my mind this morning-"I can't make you love me if you don't. I can't make your heart feel something it won't") I told her about all of the wonderful things she does for me and the kids. Then I wrote a little prayer for her.

I was actually expecting my suitcase to be sitting outside the door last night. At least we slept in the same bed last night! She was asleep when I got home and asleep when I left, so I'm not sure where we will be at tonight.

The thing that hurts is she had been a little better to me lately. She was at least talking to me, even if it was just about her new house. And she did want to go out to eat and did buy me some presents. (But she got me clothes and post-it notes-her emotional needs survey says she needs me to dress better and the post-it notes are so I can continue writing notes to her every morning). I should have just accepted what she gave me and kept trying to improve things a little at a time. Now we are back where we started or worse.

Well it's not my home any more. We are moving out in a few weeks so we can build our new house. I guess we are both going to leave!

Thanks again Symphony!

HeartOnE #1503169 10/27/05 07:57 AM
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You said: "How do I get her to want to save the marriage?"

I think the answer here is you work on improving yourself to be desireable to her.

From your writing you seem to have been focused in that direction. After that? Your conversations with your church people can be doing the "tough" work - in part.

My question for you is: "Are you at the place that you can't be radically honest with her, due to your fear of the conflict?"

Dr. Harley writes of the stages of intimacy, conflict, and withdrawal. If you leave intimacy, you enter conflict. If you leave conflict it is either back to intimacy or into withdrawal. The only way out of withdrawal is back into conflict - from there, intimacy may be restored.

Your allies at church can facilitate the conflict - sounds like a contradiction in terms doesn't it?

If you were to stay in the conflict portion of your birthday conversation, the question might be "Is the feeling I have most of the time of being emotionally isolated from you what you are comunicating to me that you feel?

Dr. Harley writes of plan A - so show your spouse your effort to be the best you can be and that mostly for yourself - but if no movement towards you results over a period of time determined by you primarily, then plan b sounds something like what occurred over your birthday plans. Show her what she is missing.

that is part of it - the other part is not to miss any little effort she makes toward you - you are late on it but recognizing the post-it- notes as complimentary of your note writing seems good. Yes, you messed up there - but back to the bigger picture. Either keep on with plan A with the help of friends - or concisively show plan b.

A mix of plan A and B will be confusing. Are you going to continue with your half mil house to put her in so she can have it in a settlement? Or will it be that she has the payments in a selllement - and can't make them?

You have taken a lot up to now, if you are at a critical juncture - with the pressure being turned up by the help of your church, do be fooled by the sharper attacks from her on Y O U R shortcomings... she seems to be projecting her difficulties onto you.

c

c1912t #1503170 10/27/05 08:55 AM
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I definitely am avoiding any conflict with her. When I try to bring up any issues or differences of opinion, she gets very upset and often goes into a rage. I think she has entered withdrawal too. We don't even talk much now about our day to day activities. We all got in the car last weekend and I got about a mile from home and had to ask her where we were going. She didn't even mention it to me. I didn't know she was going back to school or substitute teaching until the kids told me. She was in for foot surgery and I only found out because I happened to see her appointment card.

I told her a few weeks ago that it felt like she was emotionally leaving the marriage and distancing herself from me. And she said "She was"!!

I'm staying with plan A for now, but I've been there for years. I'm trying to learn how to compliment her more and appreciate her more. It's hard when she rejects anything I do. So I'll continue to try to improve myself.

I'll try to avoid plan B for now and look for any signs from her.

She shocked me with a compromise cheaper house plan a few days ago. It's a plan she likes that is a LOT cheaper!! She can't make the house payments, so we would lose the big house if we split up. I think that is part of the reason she hasn't left yet.

I have gotten very good at dealing with her anger. She blew up again yesterday and it didn't bother me much at all. Now I mostly feel sorry for her when it happens. Later she actually apologised for yelling at me (which she has never done before)!!

I think the church is helping. Last night she said she wanted to go to a counselor by herself!!!

HeartOnE #1503171 10/27/05 08:37 PM
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It is likely that what will be most difficult for you in your rel. with your wife will be the honesty. You likely have it engrained in you to be a peace-maker - yet making peace like this is cutting your own uh, uh - throat - if you get my drift.

I think in negotiation that is within the guidelines that Dr. Harley gives, you have to be able to be radically honest in stating how you feel about such and such - notice I didn't reccomend you saying to her: " YOu make me feel... but I feel ________when you __________.

The apology coming from her is G R E A T ! ! There may be a pilot light burning after all.Also the "Last night she said she wanted to go to a counselor by herself!!! " is
G R E A T .

If you haven't developed the radical honesty and can take it like a man - you haven't completed Plan A.

Now if I can just listen to that mysef. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

c

c1912t #1503172 10/27/05 11:37 PM
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I definitely have to work on the radical honesty. I'm getting so I'm not afraid of her anger any more, so I'm more willing to voice my opinion. I think that bothers her a lot. She has lost control of me and may be starting to get scared.

Are you in plan A too? How is yours going?

HeartOnE #1503173 10/29/05 08:36 PM
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I feel as if I have done Plan A for a long time. I didn't know it was anything other than what I was supposed to be doing. AS a christian, and in a covenant of marriage, I am supposed to be what I am supposed to be regardless of what my spouse does. That is as opposed to the idea of a contract. AS in when one breaks the contract the other doesn't have to honor it either.

My wife was sexually abused when she was young - and once said to me: "Why don't you read a book on sexual abuse to know how to know whaqt I am dealing with?" I tried to get her to get some significant counseling by folks that could help.

The first half of our marriage I had a mix of anger that stemmed from growing up with critical parents, two older critical brothers, became a Christian at 19 (from an extreme "hellyun," and began a new kind of self criticism. Accepting everthing that I knew of myself that was wrong as from God to "straighten me out"- producing quite a bit of guilt - but in the midst of that establishing a new person - with the mixed in effect of producing anger that I didn't know where it was coming from.

AS I came to know the difference between God's influence for the Christian to give dynamic capabilities as opposed to the critical self or the Accuser, to put down and be made to feel incapable - and along about 14 years of marriage and asking God to take away my anger - I got His drift. It was like "Don't ask me to do for you what you won't do. (Responding in anger to various difficulties).

Add another twist: After our 2nd child was born, I didn't think of a long period of time to not have sex to be out of the ordinary but when it went well past the gap between our first 2 children it became difficult. There was 18 mo between our 1st child and the 2nd being conceived - remembering the night, the month and the circumstances.

Looking back I see that I was viewed with the typical "Men always want to have sex - and they can live turned down, if I don't want to."

I viewed myself that way, thinking that it was only a physical urge and function. After13 to 15 years of being married I was realizing that it wasn't. An emotional connection was what was desired - and willingly responding and enjoying our sexual relationship was the way I "felt" loved by her.

by this time we had 5 children and my wife has not worked outside the home except the first 5 months of our marriage. She quit teaching school at the christmas break due to being pregnant - our oldest was born 9 months and twenty minutes after we were married - well not quite that quick but you get the picture.

Long story shorter, the way we have "gotten along" is to reduce expectations - at least I have had to reduce mine to avoid the frrrrussssstrrration of being refused when I sought physical touch.

I have read book after book on marriage - endured lots more guilt and confusion about why I feel so left out and after reading Harley's Buyers Renters and Freeloaders - realized what had happened.

My wife had made a choice. She was emotionally disconnected to me and after a brief time of hopefullness while she was reading some of Dr. Harley's material, quit. I was regularly being refused emotional connection. Sex had to be her idea, not mine.

When I asked her to marry me she said she didn't feel like she was as in love with me as previously thought would be the case at acceptance of a proposal... but thought that I loved her that way - and thus chose to say yes.

After reading Dr. Harley's BR&F one day it hit me like a brick to the head - I believed her - and this is what I have been dealing with for years. June will be 30. I had done plan A and had been complimented by her as doing very well at meeting her emotional needs - but somehow it was ok to not meet mine or she felt like she couldn't.

This brick hit me the end of February and I haven't so much as kissed her since. Not only is the wind out of my sails, but the mast broke off - no pun intended. A plan B of sorts.

She siad she didn't want to have conversation about sex with me until it was with a counselor - I set up a person mutually known and respected - and then she changed her mind she didn't want to talk to a man - I reccommended she find a woman she could talk to and that would be fine with me - I know now what is the background of my frustration.

But that has been put off now for more than 4 months as well.

She came back from a conference with the statement about there is too much talk about romantic love in marriage. and didn't pick up one of Harley's books since.

Our whole family has difficulties stemming from this on again off again relationship that has been so difficult.

Our oldest is 28 our youngest is 15 - none married.

"The Anger Workbook" was great - wife wouldn't read it - she needed to. She could blast away with her complaints toward me in front of our children - and because my frustration was more "private" in nature - it was like I didn't have any complaint back...

I have not said some of this even to her due to wanting to say it in front of a third person that could validate the slant of my perspective.

Truth be known, I am probably scared because if there is no admission of responsibility in this choosing to be emotionally disconnected, and my perspective is validated by the counselor, I am at the end.

I had previously asked a question on this forum about the hope of progress with someone who had been sexually abused - and had short interchange with someone who had no progress with his woman - and then find out later that he wasn't even married to her - I felt like I had a very unqualified opinion - and didn't bring it up anymore.

If you read this far, thanks for asking.

c

c1912t #1503174 10/29/05 11:54 PM
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It sounds like you have had a worse time than me. At least for the first few years we had some sex and affection in our marriage.

My wife is big on the anger outbursts too. And she always does it in front of the kids. I can't get angry and duel with her. I used to just feel really bad and feel that I was worthless and had really let down her and the kids. Later I would realize that what I did was not bad enough to warrant her anger. Now I've gotten so I just feel sorry for her when she is angry because I know that the anger is coming from her insecurities and is not totally due to my failures.

Our sex life has never been that great. About once a year she would show some interest, but mostly she was always too tired or busy or it's too early or it's too late or ... Well you get the idea. Now I realize that she has no sex drive or at least no sex drive for me. I've given up trying because it is just too frustrating. And sex used to be just her rolling over, going through the drill, and her rolling back. No emotional connection at all. And when I try to ask her out or ask her to sit and talk or show her affection to try to start an emotional connection, she pushes me away. Just more rejection. She actually told me she is emotionally leaving the marriage and has no desire to try to connect emotionally.

I think we are at the end too. I really can't continue like this. She will be going to counseling soon and has been a little nicer to me lately (She actually let me sit next to her at a restaurant today). But if things don't improve, I'm not sure our marriage can survive.


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