I don't know if it's me over analyzing or maybe I'm just in a "mood" but I want to know once and for all where I stand with J.

I have an email that I'm still composing but would like some objective opinions on it before I send it. I tend to do this about serious issues. I write it and then sit on it for a day or so and re-write it till it's exactly how I want my message conveyed.

[color:"purple"] J,

Maybe it's just me over analyzing things again or maybe there truly is something behind what I'm sensing from you. Hopefully you'll tell me once and for all so I can be at peace with this.

When we are together and when we talk it feels like we are in an exclusive relationship but when we are apart I feel like I don't even cross your mind. I'm getting mixed signals from you. When I asked you before about this you shrugged it off and said we'll talk later and you didn't know what you were doing. What kind of answer is that? I can't be at peace with an half hearted answer like that.

I'm starting to feel like I need to back away from you and re-evaluate where I am with you in this. I throughly enjoy our time spent together. I look forward to talking to you online about your day. I don't need to say how great the sex is..that's pretty obvious...at least I hope so. I feel like I don't mean as much to you as you do to me...and I don't want to impose myself on someone who doesn't share the same feelings. I want to be loved and appreciated like any other person does.

When you view the dating sites it makes me feel horrible inside. I know you say you are only looking but that looking makes me feel like you are shopping around for something better. And by all means if that is what you are doing...please tell me...don't leave me dangling...that's not fair to either of us. What I'm saying J is this...I am willing to take my profile off of every site, delete others from my IM's and tell people to not call me anymore for you. To concentrate on us and see what potential this has. If you aren't able or willing to do this then I want you to say so. I'm not one to live life in limbo land...I had done it for long enough in my marriage and I really don't like it. [/color]


......I'm having a mental block now as to where to go from here with this letter to him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Should I just scrap the entire thing, not say a word and wait it out longer???

I'd wait on it, Alluring.
It always helps to focus your thoughts by writing. But I don't think you're gonna get what you want from sending it.

I think its not a commitment or relationship issue, but a communication issue. He's not good at expressing his status.

I would just wait for a while.

Alluring,

I would not send it. I think that it would drive him the other way. Men want the thrill of the chase. I would start to not be available. Bring back the mystery. If he wants you he will chase you. If he doesn't chase,you have your answer. Get out before you get hurt. If he is still on the dating sites, he is not committed to you. I would not be havng SF with him. why buy the car if you get to drive it for free? By the way how long have you been seeing him?

With love,
Faith05

Is he viewing dating sites?

You get the feeling you aren't on his mind?

And why do you think this appears to be an exclusive relationship?

I vote for back off.

Not that I think you'll take our advice.....focus on becoming who you need to become.

Ah, the dreaded "where do I stand?" e-mail, one that is sure to make most any guy (even one who is serious about you) run for the hills. Send this e-mail, and you are sure to do several things - show him that you are obsessing over the relationship; show him that he is clearly in charge; show him that you are at his mercy; make him think that he can probably do better than you. The one and only thing that this e-mail will not do is the one and only thing that you want it to do - give you any useful reassurance.

Alluring, why are you looking to "know once and for all" where you stand with J? You are just dating, so what do you mean "where you stand"? Isn't that something that will take weeks or months or years to determine? Why put the cart ahead of the horse? If he does not call you, does not make time for you, is having sex with you, but is also on dating sites, does that not tell you where you stand, much more loudly and clearly than any meaningless e-mail from him will tell you?

What are you asking him to tell you? That he likes you? Loves you? Thinks about you? Wants no one but you?

From the sounds of it, he does not make time for you (the story you posted from a couple of weeks ago of his "too busy and tired" weekend), then throws you an occasional bone (this past weekend). And when he does, you overreact and read way more into it than he apparently intends - and then get disappointed when your hopes are dashed.

So, he is looking at dating sites, and you are upset because you assume that you and he are exclusive. May I ask why you assume that? Is that something you discussed and agreed on, or is that something that you want to happen and are frustrated that it has not happened? Just because you two are having sex does not mean that he considers himself exclusive with you. And what is that reference that you are "prepared to remove your profiles too" - does that mean you haven't done so yet?

Your e-mail is very needy and desperate, and your threats to "back off" do not sound very credible. Were I to get the e-mail you composed, I would know that I got you in the palm of my hand - and that would feel very icky.

My suggestion is to not send the e-mail, and to stop having sex with him (and assuming that you two are exclusive) until it becomes obvious through his actions. If he starts investing time and effort into the relationship, then great. If not, then probably even better. I see this relationship as one that is very uneven, and those have very low chance of success. But the best chance at success is to (as much as I hate the phrase) raise your social price - no more needy e-mails or phone calls - and move on with your own life. If he wants to join in, he'll let you know.

I am sorry if this is too blunt, but having been on both sides in uneven relationships, I believe this is your only hope to make it work.

AGG

See this is why I wanted other opinions than my own. The email that WAS in my draft folder is now in the trash. I'm not sending it. I don't make it a habit to send him emails or call him...I've only ever sent him the one email. Calls both ways are on an as needed basis as we talk every night on IM for a few hours.



I believe this is right on the money!! Lexxy do you know J? LOL


I'm going to start doing this again. I know it seems like a players game but I do believe he likes the chase. I had already put this into motion after I posted this earlier tonight. I left him an offline message on yahoo that I was going to bed at 9:30 to do some thinking and he left me 4 offline messages after that telling me why he wasn't online (work and meetings), that he would be just as late tomorrow night (more work and meetings), and hoping I was okay.



Yes..he doesn't pay to belong to any just has his profile on them and looks at them a few times a day.


At times I feel like that, yes


He's not dating anyone else I know for sure, I don't believe he's talking to anyone else on the phone, possibly on IM though. I know I know...it sounds stupid when I say it outloud now...hmmmm


So I can move on if he's not feeling it.


or that he doesn't/can't/won't like me, doesn't/can't/won't love me, doesn't think about me, doesn't want me...blah blah blah


*sigh* yep!


Something I want to happen and am frustrated that it hasn't


No I haven't...I pay for American Singles which ends on the 21st and also eHarmony which ends in a few weeks and I'm planning on removing them both when they end regardless.

((Alluring))

I remember you asking about LDR's a couple weeks back, is that this guy? How long have y'all been dating? How long y'all been having sex? How long have you been divorced?

The reasons I ask these questions is that your letter sends a message to me and that's "I'm NEEDY". So why are you so needy or as I translate a little insecure? Typically when I've seen a relationship form quickly, jump straight to sex, and one side becomes needy it's a BIG RED FLAG.....

I get the impression from this thread that she is still married...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2841262

and here where she refers to a STBX

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2839910

HTH,

T

Yes


August


Divorce isn't final yet. STBX moved out of here and in with a former girlfriend of mine back in March. Divorce is filed, settling custody of shared daughter right now and then we'll settle the divorce hopefully by the first of the year.

(((Alluring)))

I don’t believe I’ve had the honor of giving you the old LostHusband lecture yet…..lol…. Actually, I tried reading through you old posts real quick and you’ve done a pretty darn good job of not talking about the situation surrounding your divorce.

Let me see if I got these time frames down pretty good:

March 05 – Hubby moves in with a friend of yours.
August 05 – you start and LDR that involves sex in the same month
9/28/05 – You are thinking about dating an X neighbor
10/4/05 – You’re requesting “exclusive” dating with LDR guy J
10/7/05 – You’re willing to farm out your son for the relationship
Present – Back to the exclusive thing with J

Though you haven’t said anything, I’m also guessing that the divorce was filed rather recently. There are so many things I could say I honestly don’t know where to begin. So let’s start with the most important thing and that’s the kids. PLEASE tell me you haven’t brought this guy around them….. They have the right, need, and desire to grieve the loss of the family. Even if your son isn’t his, he’s still going to have to process the loss. When I divorced my girls were 12, 9, 6 and it took a good year to a year and a half with counseling before they finished the grieving process.

Next please look at this thing for what it is and not what you want it to be. J has already shown his level of interest. He’s already shown his track record. If in fact you started this LDR with him and began sleeping with him in the same month after 1 or 2 dates, then I can further understand why y’all are having such a hard time communicating and why things are going stagnant so soon and why he’s browsing the internet for his next conquest. Let me ask you something, what part of this relationship seems healthy to you?

You know that whole When life hands you lemons make lemonade saying? Well IMVHO that’s exactly what your trying to do but don’t realize that you’re doing it with grapes…. Sure the spirits might get you drunk for a while but in the end they won’t quench your thirst……

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers



Billy


PS…. You and I posted on the same thread a while back and I believe what I said to that poster also applies in your situation, so I’m gonna just throw it right back out there……..


I believe that it is widely accepted that one will go through and must go through a natural healing process after the loss of a spouse whether it be due to death or divorce. Add to that the outside circumstances surrounding the loss, whether it be infidelity or abuse or whatever, and there truly can be a lot of external issues to deal with before dealing with all the internal issues surrounding the loss.

Below, I believe you’ll find the standard accepted model of the grieving process:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

Steps 4 and 5 are where I’m going to place my emphasis. I believe that completing steps 4 and 5 are instrumental in having a successful relationship. Let’s look at them individually for just a moment:

4. Depression. This is the hopeless phase where anger, betrayal, resentments, and grief dwell. People my focus their grief inward and begin hating themselves, they may drink or do drugs as a means to cope. Or what I find more likely is that they date and engage in casual sex in an attempt to feel “normal” again.

5. Acceptance. This is when healing is completing, you notice that I didn’t say it was complete. In very humble opinion Step 5 is an action step. This is where one let’s go of the anger and bitterness towards others, as well as any towards themselves. This is where we have forgiveness.

My belief is that, at some point, you will have to go through all these steps. Now when you introduce a relationship in during Step 4, which a lot of people do, that displaces some of that anger and resentment. I’ve also believe that left undealt with that it then seeps out slowly and has an impact on how we deal with our partner. And who gets the brunt of our acting out, yes the one we love whether they deserve it or not.

So back to my statement, this is the point at which either a second relationship will fail, be miserable, or a person will make the decision to work through their grieving process towards recovery. It’s why most mental health people, after getting someone out of immediate danger if present, then go back and start looking for “unfinished” business in their lives. What they’ve masked or replaced.

That being said, do I believe that dating early dooms someone for failure, absolutely not. Especially if done with a keen awareness of self, where you are at in the process, a willing partner, and an effort to seek the end on Step 5. But along with that ray of hope there is also a cloud of negativity and that is how capable of choosing a good partner is someone going through depression? It’s an interesting thought and I have seen basic scenario’s:

1. They aren’t capable and latch on to whatever they can get and ride it for whatever it’s worth. Typically coming out at the end worse for the wear and now working through grieving the loss of relationship A and beginning the grieving of relationship B. And heck, they may even end up getting healthy through this relationship then look at who they are dating and say WTF am I doing with this loser.

2. They do have an awareness of self and see qualities in a partner that will not only help them through their process but also be a stellar mate when said process is complete. They are transparently open and honest with their partner and themselves through the early stage of the relationship which in of itself breeds an understanding of each other that is crucial in maintaining a healthy relationship. They come out in the end as a strong healthy person to find that they have a strong healthy relationship based on openness, willingness, and honesty.

I will say that option 2, as presented above, is what I believe to be not the norm but the exception. I, myself, got stuck on #4 of the grieving process for over 2 years. Once I plowed through it, step #5 came quickly and was welcomed. Had I chose to get involved in a relationship during that 2 year period, I firmly believe that I would either be grieving the loss of another relationship or in an extremely unhealthy relationship.

In an ideal world, we wouldn’t have to deal with this, but other than that people would wait till they were done grieving before venturing back out. But that’s not reality and is not often practiced. Not to speak for my lovely wife, who also posts on these boards, but I think she could expand on the need to finish grieving as well as how clouded ones vision can become in a ‘rebound’ style relationship.

I'll tackle this when I get back in an hour or so...I can tell you I'm a little ticked by your responses...

allurin...
These folks are posting because they care about you, and can see things from a different perspective than YOU can (since you are IN the relationship). Please try to accept their thoughts with love and understanding.

I say this because many of your thoughts and actions are soooooo similar to my thoughts and actions, now and in the past (except mine were after my divorce)... and I know I need to hear EXACTLY what these folks are saying ALSO.

I remember my emotions during and immediately after my divorce, and it made things so much more difficult than they are NOW, 3 years later. (Now, I am able to separate the pain of the affair and divorce, from my own needs and emotions... and I'm not running into someone else arms only out of the pain of rejection and lonliness.) I was very needy - vulnerable for attention - and I was not capable of being in a healthy relationship. Someone tried to take advantage of this weakness, and I'm lucky that nothing serious came of it.

I'm STILL very needy in many ways, and I have to work hard at growing past this... watching myself to not be too vulnerable to affection and attention (being my top EN's)... and confusing THESE things... which is similar to what some people do... confusing great sex... to a great relationship.

We want you to tackle these replies... but to also step back and consider them very carefully.

hugs,
Faith1

Thank you ((Faith)) and ((Alluring)) please do know that I do only offer advice to you because I care. I didn't and won't attack you because truly my advice to people who are standing right where you are is offered out of love and compassion. I've met many great friends on these boards and I guarantee that my 1st post to many of them more than just ticked them off. But hey that's OK, the seed was planted and some removed themselves from a bad situation (by saying that I'm not implying that yours is necessarily a bad situation).

Alluring bottom line is I'm simply trying to offer my experience, strength, and hope with you and all the members of these boards. If I said something that ticked you off please know that it wasn't done so with malice but rather with love. Sometimes I do have a tendency to be a little rough around the edges and sometimes I may do it without thinking about it to show a point.

Another funny thought about all this is how predictable things are. When I came to these boards I had it worse than anyone and no one could relate to me or so I thought. Then come to find out I was singing the same song many others had sang only a different verse. I look at your situation much the same. I could begin naming off people who've wore same shoes you're wearing now and the results all seem the same. But who knows Alluring, maybe you and this situation are different, but then again maybe it's the same song....

Actually, I tried reading through you old posts real quick and you’ve done a pretty darn good job of not talking about the situation surrounding your divorce.

[color:"red"] Done with purpose. I refuse to dwell on his abuse and the things he put me through...I'm moving past that very well [/color]

March 05 – Hubby moves in with a friend of yours.
August 05 – you start and LDR that involves sex in the same month [color:"red"] YEP[/color]
9/28/05 – You are thinking about dating an X neighbor [color:"red"]Decided to not even open that can of worms [/color]
10/4/05 – You’re requesting “exclusive” dating with LDR guy J [color:"red"] YEP[/color]
10/7/05 – You’re willing to farm out your son for the relationship [color:"red"]This is where you ticked me off to start with...FARM OUT MY SON?????? NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS!!!! I have been my son's mother and father since he was 18 months old. My son's father has nothing to do with him, my son regularly since he was about 2 has almost always gone to my mothers, sisters, brothers, a friends house on weekends. If he doesn't go stay somewhere for whatever reason then there is usually at least one of his friends if not more staying the weekend at my house. It's common practice here. I would never ever make my kids leave our home with the purpose of me being with a man...my kids are my pride and joy and I live and breath for them.[/color]
Present – Back to the exclusive thing with J [color:"red"]YEP[/color]

Though you haven’t said anything, I’m also guessing that the divorce was filed rather recently. [color:"red"]Absolutely wrong...was filed in April a continuance of a previous filing 2 years ago. [/color] There are so many things I could say I honestly don’t know where to begin. So let’s start with the most important thing and that’s the kids. PLEASE tell me you haven’t brought this guy around them…..[color:"red"]of course I have...and they like him and he likes them...[/color] They have the right, need, and desire to grieve the loss of the family. Even if your son isn’t his, he’s still going to have to process the loss. When I divorced my girls were 12, 9, 6 and it took a good year to a year and a half with counseling before they finished the grieving process. [color:"red"]What you purposely don't know is that the STBX and I were separated almost 4 years ago and he was out of the house for 18 months, divorce weeks away from being final and he moved back home while I wasn't home because he had no place else to go...so he said....there was nothing I could legally do about it because the protection from abuse order I had out on him had expired and because his name was on the deed to our house with mine. We have been through this before...we have grieved before...the kids and I know how happy we were last time and how happy we are now with him gone again. I firmly believe in the theory of kids are better off in two happy homes verses one miserable one.[/color]

Next please look at this thing for what it is and not what you want it to be. J has already shown his level of interest. He’s already shown his track record. If in fact you started this LDR with him and began sleeping with him in the same month after 1 or 2 dates, then I can further understand why y’all are having such a hard time communicating and why things are going stagnant so soon and why he’s browsing the internet for his next conquest. [color:"red"]You don't know his background so you can't know what I know when I reason this out. He was in a rare relationship for 4 years with a woman who literally beat the living sh*t out of him. He has reason to be the way he is just like I have reason to be the way I am. No one is perfect but at least he's willing to make an effort at changing things when I actually voice my concerns to him. [/color]Let me ask you something, what part of this relationship seems healthy to you? [color:"red"]Quite a bit of it is healthy. When he says he's going to do something he's yet to let me down...if he says he's going to call he calls if he says he's going to visit he visits. I have no reason really to doubt him other than...from past experience with past men I ASSUME he's going to be the same way. He says he's just looking...we all know how men are visual creatures...I have no reason to really doubt that other than from my past experiences with men who acted on that "just looking" theory. Which is why I think I am over analyzing things and that I just need to back off...be less available and see how things go from there. Then I'll be in a better light of where things stand....actions speak louder than words and so far most of his actions have been good. I have no proof that he's talking to anyone else, seeing anyone else, or planning on seeing anyone else...it's just my own insecurites from my past. He's calling and visiting...it's just the lack of communication from him on where he would like this to go...and for now it will be as it is right now and that's "DATING ONLY" nothing exclusive. I need to put myself back into that frame of thinking and quite reading more into things...again the over analyzing[/color]

allurin...
These folks are posting because they care about you, and can see things from a different perspective than YOU can (since you are IN the relationship). Please try to accept their thoughts with love and understanding. [color:"red"] I know and I'm trying to be open to the suggestions...It makes it hard when I actually know him and know his background and they don't and they wanna assume the worst of him. He really isn't a bad guy...but he MAY be a guy who will never want an exclusive relationship due to HIS past. And that's okay...I just need to find out for myself. ya know? [/color]

I say this because many of your thoughts and actions are soooooo similar to my thoughts and actions, now and in the past (except mine were after my divorce)... and I know I need to hear EXACTLY what these folks are saying ALSO.
[color:"red"] I've noticed this also [/color]

I'm STILL very needy in many ways, and I have to work hard at growing past this... watching myself to not be too vulnerable to affection and attention (being my top EN's)... and confusing THESE things... which is similar to what some people do... confusing great sex... to a great relationship. [color:"red"] Agree wholeheartedly!! [/color]

We want you to tackle these replies... but to also step back and consider them very carefully.
[color:"red"] thanks hon...I do appreciate it![/color]

((Alluring)) please do know that I do only offer advice to you because I care. I didn't and won't attack you because truly my advice to people who are standing right where you are is offered out of love and compassion. [color:"red"] Thank you..I do appreciate it [/color]I've met many great friends on these boards and I guarantee that my 1st post to many of them more than just ticked them off. But hey that's OK, the seed was planted and some removed themselves from a bad situation (by saying that I'm not implying that yours is necessarily a bad situation). [color:"red"] this is no where near a bad situation...I've been down that road before and I won't go there again and that's a major reason for my over anaylzing now [/color]

Alluring bottom line is I'm simply trying to offer my experience, strength, and hope with you and all the members of these boards. If I said something that ticked you off please know that it wasn't done so with malice but rather with love. Sometimes I do have a tendency to be a little rough around the edges and sometimes I may do it without thinking about it to show a point. [color:"red"] I understand and I didn't get upset until you mentioned that I "farmed out" my son. [/color]

Another funny thought about all this is how predictable things are. When I came to these boards I had it worse than anyone and no one could relate to me or so I thought. Then come to find out I was singing the same song many others had sang only a different verse. I look at your situation much the same. I could begin naming off people who've wore same shoes you're wearing now and the results all seem the same. But who knows Alluring, maybe you and this situation are different, but then again maybe it's the same song.... [color:"red"] As with everything...Time will tell [/color]

“””Done with purpose. I refuse to dwell on his abuse and the things he put me through...I'm moving past that very well”””

I can dig that……. As long as it’s dealt with in the moving past department rather than stuffed.

”””August 05 – you start and LDR that involves sex in the same month YEP”””

OK….. It’s my very humble opinion that sex often changes the dynamics of a relationship. In my interactions with others I’ve often seen where men feel victorious over their conquest and relax while I’ve seen women then look for that exclusive status forming an emotional bond beyond where the man is. That’s why IMVHO sex is best if introduced after the exclusive stage rather than before. Again, just my opinion. Since you’ve said this is a LDR, then is it safe to ASSuME that y’all didn’t see each other to many times before it became physical?

“””So let’s start with the most important thing and that’s the kids. PLEASE tell me you haven’t brought this guy around them…..of course I have...and they like him and he likes them...”””

We’ll probably have to agree to disagree on this one. With the elaboration that you gave about your hubby I personally see more of a need to shelter your children from your relationships until they reach the serious plateau. They’ve experienced a father in and out and in and out of their lives. If they get attached to J, as it seems from your statement, then things don’t work out. They are left to grieve again and again….


“””We have been through this before...we have grieved before...the kids and I know how happy we were last time and how happy we are now with him gone again.”””

While I can stipulate that you know you enough to know if you have finished grieving or not. But with the hubby in and out and in, I would seriously wonder about the children’s grieving.

“””He was in a rare relationship for 4 years with a woman who literally beat the living sh*t out of him. He has reason to be the way he is just like I have reason to be the way I am.”””

Oh really, how recently did he get out of that relationship? Are you his first relationship since then? Do you think he’s healed from the abuse?

“””He says he's just looking...we all know how men are visual creatures...”””

I love that line, man it can get me out of trouble….. Than men are visual is of no relevance here. Many men are also logical thinkers, I don’t go to the store unless I’m going to buy something. I definitely wouldn’t go to the store twice a day just to look.

Alluring;
I can SOOOO relate to the "status" issue. I lived and breathed it with my last BF. I was never sure where I stood with him. And any time I tried to analyze it or discuss it with him was me "pressuring him."

That was never really the issue. I wasn't DYING to pin him down. I would have been fine with ANY description, but I always felt off-balance cuz I didn't know what the ground rules were. Is it OK for me to date others? Do I have to tell you that I am? If I meet someone can I give them my number? Are you still shopping for someone else? If you go out with your friends are you still meeting other women and getting their phone numbers?

I just never really knew what was fair or unfair. And the frustrating part for me was that I would be OK either way I JUST WANTED TO KNOW! It was definetly not worth pursuing because I constantly got labeled as pressuring him.

I think your J would view it the same.

Oh really, how recently did he get out of that relationship? Are you his first relationship since then?
[color:"red"]3 years he's been out of it[/color]
Do you think he’s healed from the abuse?
[color:"red"] Not completely but at least he's able to talk about it...most men would never admit to that much less talk about it [/color]