My H had a two year A and our d-day was 11/01. Contact continued through Plan A and two Plan B's and Harley counseling. Finally, last contact was 4/04 when I threatened to expose to everyone in OW's life. H has stopped calling her by then, but would occasionally answer her many, many attempts at contact. I went through ****** trying for NC letter, but he never would send it, saying she would just start up all her obsessive calling again. I lived with it, with the understanding that if she ever were to call again, he would NOT talk to her.

We have both been working hard at recovery and felt we were doing well in every area, still working, but things were feeling good and I was trusting again. Last night I just got a weird feeling--his cell phone rang around 9:30pm, obviously not work related, he was asleep and it came up missed call unknown. This does sometimes trigger me as she always did *67 and I would not know that she had called on cell phone bills that he freely let me check. Anyway, acting on the weird feeling, I pulled his last month's cell bill out of his briefcase. I usually look them over, but this one I hadn't as he had said he was going to try to change his plan and needed call history for that. Low and behold I find out there is a call from her employer, 4 minutes to him.

I immediately went and woke him and asked him if he had talked to OW. "No, where is this all coming from?" He says. Continues to deny, hasn't talked to her for a year and a half...I asked him IF they had talked, would he tell me? I don't know because of how you react. Swear to me you haven't talked to her.

So he admits it. I tell him that I feel disrespected, that my feelings are not important to him if he could talk to her after all that the A had done to me, that I felt taken for granted in how hard I have had to work to forgive and move on after this betrayal. That we had gone through the "just talking with her, it is meaningless" so many times. I left and slept downstairs. THis am I got this email from H
________________________________________________________
Email from H:
You will have to forgive me if I wasn't very talkative regarding our conversation last night, I was dead asleep when you woke me and started asking me questions about OW and accusing me of lying, being disrespectful, taking you for granted, and basically talking AT me like I was a kid.

I understood the questions to be, "Why are you talking to OW? And why are you callingOW?" I got the impression that it's your belief that I am talking to OW on a regular basis...such is not the case! And, that I am calling OW, which also is not the case!

Here are the details of our conversation: As I was getting out of an elevator in Denver, regarding our Facility meeting that took place in late June, I received a phone call from OW. I didn't look at the caller ID, because the phone was in my pocket and I was struggling to get it out and wanted to answer it before I lost the call..I assumed it was work related.

OW said hello and I didn't recognize the voice, so I asked who I was speaking with. OW told me it was her. I said hi and told her that I was surprised by the call and asked her why she was calling. She stated that she was just calling to say hello and see what I was up to. She asked about DD and I told her she was good and in school now. She told me about her kids (one in cheerleading and one that she thinks has an eating disorder and won't eat any meat), so I told her to try chocolate protein shakes, because they are not bad tasting and a good source of protein. I asked her how her plans were going for her wedding and where they were going for their honeymoon. She said it was a little weird going through it a second time and that they were going to the Virgin Islands (as I recall..I might be mistaken about that). I said that sounds nice, congrats on your wedding, I hope it works out for you. She told me her dad was getting a procedure on his face related to skin cancer and asked me if I ever did anything with my face. I told her no and stated that I had to go because a client was waiting for me. I got back in the elevator (I was on the wrong floor) and I lost my cell signal, which I knew was going to happen.

I have not talked to her since and she has not called me since that day. I started answering my phone no matter if there was caller ID or not, because she hadn't called me in so long and I wasn't worried about it being her. I have many people that call me that don't have caller ID that is work related. I have gone back to not answering my phone if I don't know the number.

I am not sure why she called other than to talk. I didn't speak to her very long and I decided I wasn't going to say anything to you, because I knew how you would react (similar to tonight) and it just isn't worth it to me. It was an insignificant call as far as I am concerned. You feel that I was in the wrong with the way that I handled it and I don't believe I was. That is a fact that will never change between us.

I mean no disrespect to you, nor do I take you for granted! I am sorry if you think that I don't care about your feelings, because that is not true. If you don't trust me I don't know what else I can do. I haven't seen this woman in over two years, and prior to our brief conversation a few months ago, I hadn't spoken to her in approx a year and a half. You know all of my pass codes for my phone, computers, etc., etc ., and I haven't changed any of those because I have nothing to hide and I don't care if you check them. I don't do anything except go to work, workout, which I do very little of anymore, and every once in awhile I will go watch a ball game over a friends house (one this year and one last year).

I call you a couple times a day to check in with you and see how your day is going and let you know what I am doing. When I am on the road I call you with all of my numbers, so you know where I am, and I also call a couple times a day to see how you and DD are doing and I let you know my plans for the evening, if I have any, which normally I don't except if it's work related. You told me all of the above is important to you and I do it because I do care about your feelings and I want to give you peace of mind. And I want to do it!

I don't want to go through all of this "OWbullshit" again, which is one of the reasons why I didn't tell you about it in the first place. I've got enough on my mind regarding sleep deprivation, work issues, and supporting you and DD, so if you still have issues regarding the above matter lets get them cleared up and move on.

I am sorry that you felt it necessary to sleep in the basemen

{{{{{Anne}}}}} I don't have any great advice for you. Your H is totally missing the point here. He didn't tell you because he says he knew you'd have "this" reaction. The reality is that you had that reaction because he kept the fact that the bi*** called him a secret. That is the issue.

I have told H if anything at all regarding OW is even brought up in conversation I want to know. If he saw her and didn't tell me immediately I wouldn't be happy. When he broke contact, called her, and hung up after 2 months he didn't tell me. Three days later she called him and that night he told me about the conversation. He didn't get how it bothered me he didn't immediately tell me about the 1st one. I sure hope he gets it now because I'd feel just like you.

All I can say is when you talk to him I hope he can really understand your feelings regarding this. I know that you need him to get this. CV

Well... 3rd edit job - kept thinking about it. Should have waited to post but I tried to hurry out of the office...


I would say his last paragraph is dead on.


You do and you should. You had a very, very rough time and it has been 18 months - but a very rough time getting to that stage of NC if I understand the dates.

I will say that his comment about "OWbullshit" is a bit insensitive. But then he is male (me too) so no telling exactly what was in his mind other than irritation.

The rest of his email was pretty level headed, IMHO.

How much effort have the two of you made for romance?

For whatever it is worth, as a BS, I think I would have been annoyed at the call, but not at him - at her. After all, he didn't initiate the call, she did.

Apparenly they had a long affair. As a woman, what was she telling him in female speak? I must confess I didn't understand the conversation. I also dunno what that was about the marriage. Not to add fuel to the fire, but how did he know about the upcoming marriage?

But, nothing that was said leads anywhere IMHO.

Think about it. IMHO, you may have over reacted. BUT, THAT IS FROM THE MALE POINT OF VIEW!!!!!!!

I have nothing but respect for CV55 and her views, so I bow to her superior wisdom as to how you feel.

On the other hand, you could likely have found better ways to express your emotions instead of a confrontation. For example, my wife checked her secret email a couple of weeks ago and in the course of a conversation, I asked if she had been going to see if he had emailed her. She flushed and then said she had checked her email a few days earlier and no he had not.

Then she said she checked it to clear up some things in her mind. I said ok hon, what did you figure out? She said well, I don't know, I just feel sorry for him - pity. I said I don't - if he had gotten what he wanted, the two of you would have had a world class train wreck that would have screwed up the two of you, the kids and me even more so.

He owns the consequences of his own choices and so do you. She said ok we are doing great, I just feel sorry for him. To which I replied, again, I don't. He took his best shot at destroying a bunch of lives for his own selfish ends and he owns his own consequences. My wife sighed and said I was right - sometimes she wished she had been stronger so none of it would have happened.

Other things have heppened since then and I am not worried a bit that the romance will get started up again or that she will betray me, ever, period, ever.

Anne,

Your actions and especially reactions were completely normal. His attitude by way of his emails is one that all good liars use.....a lot of truth in what they are saying....accusing the other person of being a wackadoo...in short, blaming the victim.

There is no substitute for a NC letter. Your WH(not FWH)still has no clue to what he did to you and your M or he has a very conveniently poor memory.

He says a lot about the call THAT YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT but those magic words " I screwed up please forgive me" is glaringly missing.

Ask him what the definitions of honesty and transparency mean to him. Then buy him a dictionary.

Methinks he doth protest too much

I agree here. I think Anne's WH is not telling the whole sordid truth. I admittedly am cynical of many Cheaters though.

Anne, sorry....but you better keep your eyes and ears open more. Your WH doesn't "get it".

LM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anne, at the risk of getting lambasted, I think you are overreacting. Note I said "overreacting." Your reaction is normal. I've been there and know how it sucks you right back to what seems like the "beginning."

But 18 months? Give me a break. She called him, he has NOT sought her out for a conversation or for anything.

I will NOT stoop to calling him a "liar," because that MAY have been appropriate while the affair was going on, but he gave you an HONEST description of the call and his reason for not saying anything. From your reaction, I'd say his assessment, or fear(lack of feeling safe that he could tell you about something that he was sure would be liked by you) was probably on target.

Yes, you were justified in feeling hurt and betrayed. No, you were not justified in waking him from a deep sleep to confront him in "anger."

You can choose to "worry" this and build it into a mountain if you choose, or you can accept his explanation, assign this "incident" to a "blip" on the recovery road, and keep moving forward...unless you have a REASON to think that there IS an affair going on. Fair or not, "choices" is what a BS "Signs On For" when the opt for recovery.

I hope that hasn't sounded too insensitive. If it did, please accept my apology for any hurt you might have felt.

I think Foreverhers is right. While it sounds like your husband still doesn't completely "get it", I think he is sincere.

I would ask him to write a NC letter.

I agree with Lemon and most who posted here.

Your H is playing the classic line of 'he didn't tell you because of your reaction'. I got that line also....what the nutcase fails to realize is that the reaction came BECAUSE he didn't not practice RH (radical honesty). Hm..... will it happen again? You betcha.

I let my Xws know that if his logic took him down that path again, he'd be sleeping in his truck. Plan B stays with me (in my back pocket) for just that reason.

So don't let him bully you.

JMHO,
L.

"I didn't speak to her very long..." WHAT???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> What's all the crap about her wedding and honeymoon, and your DD, her kids, protein shakes, father, etc. etc.??????? That's contact...period!!! That's chit-chat. That's not "I'm not taking calls from you." Or "I'm not interested or willing to talk with you. Please don't call me again. Good-bye." Was he worried about being rude??? My gosh, how rude of him was it to disregard all the hard work the two of you have put into rebuilding your marriage?

He was afraid to tell you because of the way you'd react?? I can't remember how many times I heard that crap as an excuse. I would tell my xWS many times that it would be better to share the truth asap, than to compound the issue by being secretive. Besides, if he knew that's how you'd react, he obviously knew his behavior was unacceptable.

Your H. goes on to say he's sorry that you feel he doesn't care about your feelings because he does, and doesn't know what else he can do if you don't trust him. How about "no contact" and radical honesty if there is contact. If he were still in the midst of his affair, it wouldn't matter if he or she initiated the phone call. No contact!



I remember one night when my xWS and I were in a MC session. Our therapist started to confront him about his time away from home. (I didn't know about the affair then.) My xWS shouted "I don't need this kind of B---S---! I've got enough real problems to deal with without putting up with your (mine)B.S.!" (This was very unusual behavior for him.) It was the ole "bait and switch".....If you start to confront me, I'll turn it around and attack you...put the focus back on your behaviors, and off from mine. In all fairness, my xWS did have some "real problems" to deal with....I think this was when the OW told him she was pregnant!

I'd be interested in how your H. expects to clear things up when he has already stated that you think the way he handled it was wrong and he doesn't, and "that fact will never change."

It does sound like your H. has done some really great things in trying to reassure you in the past year and a half. But for me, no secret about contact with the OW is acceptable in rebuilding trust. Just my thoughts and feelings.....

He is telling you that he will never change in his belief that it is OK to talk to the OW and then lie to you about it. He has told you clearly he does not think its wrong to have contact with the OW. He has told you it is ok for him to have secrets with the OW to which you are not privy.[justification for not telling you is that he is a coward. how reassuring <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />]

It makes no difference whatsoever who contacted whom, Anne, what counts is that he allowed the contact to take place which makes him just as culpable. Had he hung up it would have been different, but since he didn't, he is 100% responsible for this contact. And this is, no doubt, why the OW has stayed in contact all these years and the affair dragged on forever.

It is impossible for you to ever rebuild trust and recover the marriage as long as he refuses to end contact. This event put you back to day 1 of recovery. And every contact will do that; it is like dying a death of a thousand cuts. You keep being dragged back over and over again.

Anne, the bottom line is that he has made it clear that he does not care about protecting you by ensuring that no contact takes place. He has made it clear that he has no intention of ending contact and does not care if it destroys you. You are fully informed of where he stands so it is up to you to decide if you can live that way or not.

Anne,
I agree with Heartmending about the conversation. Your H didn't reply with "I'm sorry I don't want to talk to you, please don't call again" response. He continued to have a conversation with her. So that he does not get. If you were standing right next to him, would he have continued this conversation? I don't think so. So right there it is not radical honesty that is being practiced. I have a problem with that. There can't be a friendship there. She should not exist to him.

As far as your reaction goes, I think your feelings are valid, but your approach could have been a little... smoother (for lack of a better word). We don't want to LB even though your finding out about this may have blown one of your gaskets. I truly understand and it would have blown mine. So I think your H was reacting to your reaction, and he got defensive because he did something wrong. And you caught him.

I don't think he understands NC and what contact does to the BS (especially if contact is kept secret no matter who initiates). It is a trust issue. And there is no 100% anymore. He needs to be totally transparent and have NC. That relationship is gone, it is not a friendship now. It can never be.

Keep a level head, but make your needs known. Just my thoughts. Be well.

Heartmending, MelodyLane and MicheleG got it right on. What my H does not get is that his talking to her and then lying about it are my big problems. We cannot control her, only he CAN stop the conversation and tell her he does NOT want contact from her. Something in him DOES want contact. No, he does not call her, but he doesn't prevent contact and prevent me from being hurt.

My initial reaction was actually very, very calm. I did not accuse him of anything--he lied at first and said he hadn't talked to her then admitted that he had. He lied. Statement of fact. I told him how I felt.

After I received the email and tried to communicate with him was when I lost it. Last night I actually broke down in primal screams because of my pain that he cannot or will not see me, hear me and understand me and be willing to NOT hurt me.

After seeing my therapist this morning and reading replies I feel alot better. At least more focused. The bottom line is that my H doesn't get it. He probably never will get it, but it is about him, not me. He isn't capable for whatever reason. My therapist said I must stop asking him to understand me or love me the way I need to be loved and live with the reality for a while that this is what my H is capable of. See what comes up for me and see if it is too painful for me or too diminishing for me, or if I can stay with him knowing this part of me will not be understood or acknowledged. I need to reconnect with God spiritually and know that I am understood by Him.

I don't think the A is rekindling, but I know with all certainty that it is NO reflection on me whatsoever. He is the one with big problems if after all we have both done in recovery he gets back into it.

He will 'get it'. It may take another catastrophe to do so. R U up to it or is plan B a better option?

This is one of the reasons why recoveries take sooo long. Mine had contact off and on, it finally escalated into him breaking it off with the OW. Because he insisted on being 'nice', I got an e-mail from the OW on my vacation while at my parents home in another state......OW decided to give 'details', her version....... which was partially accruate and embellished....... followed up by her filing an RO against the WS because he dared to break up with her. I finally got to see her face to face.... IN COURT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

I don't know what to do other than follow my therapist's advice. I don't want to destroy our work together in recovery, but I do need to be heard and understood about contact and have him love and respect me enough to have no contact even if he doesn't agree.

I don't know about Plan B. It might just be the end of us. I would rather think and see how it goes. I will know I think when I am just unable to keep going forward.

Plan B is to relieve you of the crap an Xws who is NOT your H (yet) is throwing your way. Double check with your therapist.....he/she should be familar with MB concepts. Plan B is a biggie here.

Not t/b afraid of what will remove you from this fog. Plan B is about you and for you. Regardless of the status of the Xws.

He needs to realize that any communication with any OP is not creating a safe environment for you. Don't argue if 'he can handle it', the point is you can't. Let him know that until you are strong enough to 'handle it'(which of course is NEVER), such actions are disrespectful and not t/b tolerated.

There you have established a boundary. Now you have to make sure it is YOUR boundary and learn to how implement and follow through with it (include the consquences).

Here's a tip: If he threatens to leave, let him.....it means recovery was a farce. It was gonna eventually happen. You are not pushing him into this. He was dragging you into it. If he is remorseful, then he will want to create a safe environment for you and the 2 of you can work as a team on this recovery.

JMHO, 'cuz I've been there, done that.

take care,
L.

Hi Anne 6263,
Like yours, my husband had an affair. It has been over a year since he told OW it was over. She tried to contact him once after I found out everything. He rang me and told me straight away. My husband has been through ****** (and deservedly so) because of this affair, but your husband needs to realise that there is more ****** to be gone through by not telling you that there has been contact with OW, rather than telling you. He seems to be doing all the right things to make you feel more secure ( and for this I congratulate him) except telling you about this contact. If there is nothing to hide, then there is no need to hide the fact that OW has contacted him, he needs to know this, and you need to tell him that it would be easier for you to know at the time, than to find out later.

Hope all is well with you, all my best wishes and love, reewil...

I agree here with MicheleG. Would you H agree to sending a NC letter to her?

Lady

Ladysheep,
I corrected that statement. It was a double negative of sorts, but I guess the message was put across...NO CONTACT.

If he does (which at this time is risky), he should have it sent so that the delivery is trackable and confirmed. Also put a copy of it with your lawyer and expect her to react. Be prepared.

Ows can and do sue. Some are stupid enough to file and RO. The one in my case did and it was enforced. It was enforced with the temp judge declaring it being enforced for both parties. Xws didn't file an RO himself (though he should have) but the judge saw the OW was nuts with her big 4" binder and tape recorder (full their e-mails and her recorded phone conversations).

L.

Anne....Plan B? To even consider it indicates you have a lot of work to do yourself in this recovery. There is NOTHING that your husband did in this ONE contact, initiated by the OW, in 18 MONTHS of recovery to warrant any thought that there is an affair going on that NEEDS Plan B because Plan A isn't working.

I'm sorry Anne, but I think you are getting some advice here that is going to cause a real big problem for your recovery if you choose to accept it and implement it.

Yes, your husband should have told you about the call. Yes, he really should not have had a conversation with her at all.

Yes, he was right about your reaction, you don't make it "safe" for him to "tell you."

Anne, you are going down the path of letting a call initiated by the OW destroy 18 months of progress. Your husband, if what he said in his email is correct, is an open book to you...and that includes the "call detail" that you can review any time you choose. To him, he IS over her with respect to any emotional involvement and it IS a "small thing" to him. NO, he DOESN'T get that ANY contact is still a big thing for you, and likely will be for the rest of your life.

That is something you CAN get him to understand, but only through calm and intellient discussion, not by throwing a "rant" and slinging all sorts of emotional based reactions at him.

Anne, part of the promise you make when you choose to forgive him is to "not use the affair against him" in the future. If you accept the concept that Orchid states, of "keeping Plan B" in your back pocket, you effectively negate any claim to forgiveness and seek to maintain a "one upsmanship" position whereby "one step out of line" and he's in the NO CONTACT WITH YOU dog house, only to be allowed out once he is sufficiently cowed.

Anne, recovery means getting back to the point where you DO trust him, even if he "bumps into" or "gets a call." That trust says two big things; one, that he will not engage in another affair and devastate you again, and two, you will allow yourself to be "vulnerable again" to the possibility that you could get hurt. Keeping the "back pocket Plan B" ready for use at a moments notice is a way to NOT allow yourself to "get hurt."

Marriage is many things, but it is also about vulnerability on both parts. Forgiving things like this phone call come under the heading of "love covers over a multitude of sins." Yes, feel free to discuss how his NOT telling you has hurt and that you would like him to tell you immediately if she attempts another contact. Or even change phone numbers so she can't call again.

But don't throw away all your progress because you are too stubborn to see that you BOTH have made a mistake in how you've handled this "incident." USE it to work for progress, not as an excuse to indulge your "Taker."

If I'm sounding unfeeling to you Anne, please know that I have had to deal with intermittant Contact myself for 3 years of recovery. So I do know how hard it is. But I also know that your "problem" was the affair and that working on the lying that was associated with this incident will improve your marriage, but it shouldn't "break" your marriage. The Affair and Recovery have brought all these things to the forefront, to hopefully be dealt with and allow you both to grow, but don't let "small setback" set you back to where you think the whole thing is "blowing up." From all accounts from you and your husband, you have both done very well getting to where you are now...and you should evaluate things in the TOTAL perspective. IF there is a suspicion that the affair is "back on," then find out and kick him out if it is. But if not, consider carefully what you do before you "overreact" out of emotions and not out of reason.

God bless.