This is probably gonna confuse you more but there are differing opinons here so take this only if it helps. ok? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I dealt with 3 years of false recovery and went through very close to what you are going through now. It may appear your H has had nothing t/d with the recent contact. While I highly doubt that even if he didn't, the very fact that the OW was brazen enough to contact in any way shape or form shows things are still happening. Yep even if it is in her mind only.

Given that scenario, it is still your H's responsibility to make you feel safe. The fact that he babbled about not wanting to hurt you or whatever shows he is still bent on protecting the WS side of his personality. Not a good thing.

I would blow that cover up right now. I did and mine no longer could use that excuse. I put more 'onis' on him to make us feel safe and any contact from any OP could set him out the door.

Btw, I enacted plan B once when there was no contact but because I did not feel safe and he couldn't prove himself enough, he knew he needed to go out. He slept in his truck for 1 night. I got calls every 90 minutes or so, so guess who didn't sleep either. Yep....it was one long night. Good thing it was a Saturday. LOL!!!

I don't abuse this plan B stuff, but I don't shelve it either.

JMHO,
L.

Just curious, has your FWH ever put himself in your shoes and considered how it would feel if you had an A?

As you have acknowledged, he still seems very me-centered. Guess he has not imagined how it really would feel to have his inner territory so uncontrollably vandalized.

I am not trying to fuel the fire, but I find his discussion about her honeymoon particularly unrepenting...he needs a serious reality check.

Anyway, I wanted to post because something jumps out at me. Even if HE doesn't know why the OW called, I think I do, she is getting M...maybe feeling unfilled by it...maybe questioning....maybe just having to face a major life/relationship change and seeking a little fantasy land. Who knows exactly, but she still thinks she can turn to him for a fix to ease those questions.

I would have to wonder: Does this mean she will be contacting you FWH each time she has marital problems?

I question whether you are safe until HE closes that door. (Not to mention this woman needs to get REJECTED just out of respect for you!)

That is why I think a no contact letter needs to be sent. The OW needs to understand that her calls or contact are NOT welcome.

P.S. Does OW fiance know she called your H....hhmmm? Wonder what he would think if he got a copy of the NC letter?

FH,
I know what you are saying and I am kind of thinking your way, but I have done this exact acceptance thing so many times. He is still no where near changed on the point of the harmlessness of contact.

BTW, he did not volunteer the contact, I had to pry it out of him.

H does not make me feel safe re: this OW or anything else because he lies and omits so very easily with no impact on himself. This scares me. I think it is a character flaw and a serious one. He has a hard time standing up and just taking responsibility for his actions.

I think the OW did want her fix and maybe to jab him about her getting married--to see if he still pines for her. She thinks he is only with me b/c of DD and could never, ever be truly happy with me. Their not being together is just a sad piece of fate.

I would contact her H or fiance but it would take a lot of work on my part. Frankly, I am just not up to it right now. To me, the issue is H. He won't change his phone number, he won't send a NC letter--says it is not necessary and will just get her worked up. Only one contact in 18 months he feels is nothing. I guess I agree in that aspect. Just her thinking she can call at any time sucks though. I either get hurt by that or accept it for what it is--her desperation for her fix and my H's need to be the good guy for her. Not telling me is his way to remain the good guy to me and indeed to himself. If he faces no consequences for his behavior, he can pretend it didn't happen. This a character flaw IMHO, but I guess we all have them.

Through all that has happened, I have done some serious work on myself. I can see that I used to want and need to control everything. I needed my H, I didn't think I was worth anything if he didn't love me. I don't believe that one iota now. I am proud of all I have done to keep this M together. I am proud of all that he had done too--I humbly say that I am way ahead of him in spiritual and emotional aspects. He is not introspective and tends to want to shove it all into the deep dark past. This is who he is. He may grow, he may not. I cannot make him do it. I will have to see what happens. If the pain is too great and I cannot endure it, I think God will forgive me and understand if I must end the marriage.

Anne,

Quote:"H does not make me feel safe "

Call me old fashioned but I was always taught, and have always firmly believed, that the protection and safety of my wife was my primary duty above all else.

One other thing. After rereading your your initial post on this thread and his email to you he said "I asked her(OW) about her upcoming marriage"

How in the world did he know about that with his self-professed no contact in 18 months?

He told me a while ago that she was getting married--he had heard from a mutual friend. She lives in another city thousands of miles away so it is pretty easy for me to track if they could have seen each other. Seems impossible. They could have talked--it is entirely possible since I had not been checking. I feel alot healthier not checking all the time. It is weird though, that the one time I check, I do find something. I always look at cell phone bills, but since her number is private it wouldn't show up on the bill.

Because we had been making so much progress and when he was in contact, we weren't I feel pretty secure that this was a one time thing. BUT now I think she will think they can be "just friends" again and "just talk."

So far, he won't talk to me, avoids me and acts like a victim. He is only normal around DD. I find it interesting to look at him objectively, and very, very freeing to not blame myself for his actions. At least I have gotten that down. That will help in whatever situations I face in the future.

The scariest thing for me at this point is that I am very seriously contemplating leaving the M. I don't know if he will ever become capable of protecting me and thinking of my feelings first if he doesn't agree with it or doesn't think it is important. This comes up in a lot of ways. I don't know if I am capable of never LBing in the face of that kind of hurt. I am trying to be strong and I am trying to be courageous but I feel like I have gone backwards and I don't want to go through all the stuff again. I really thought we had made progress and I just don't see it manifested from his side.

Maybe I never fully dealt with the anger and rage and now it is all coming out? I feel more angry and frustrated with him than anything else. I don't really even feel like I love him right now. I know I can't go by feelings, it is just hard. I don't feel it and maybe I don't want to.

Okay Anne, I understand the feeling very well, having "been there" several times as a result of contacts that I found out about (never have had one volutarily disclosed).

So what is it about DIVORCE that will be easier on you and your daughter than "enduring" until God's timing is brought to fruition?

I KNOW it's hard and I know the thoughts and the uncertainty. So please don't take the following as being a "callous and unfeeling" sort of thing....but, so what?
Is your husband a Christian? If so, tell us a little about how he is attempting to fulfill his role as "spiritual head of the house" and perhaps some suggestions may become evident that will help him to "get it" finally.

God bless.

Anne,

My posts to you were not designed to have you walk away from your M. They were intended to agree with your underlying suspicions, a treacherous husband again not fulfilling his vows. This in spite of your unfailing willingness to repair what HE had torn asunder. Being thrust into this infidelity nightmare, it is common to question your own sanity and perspective in the face of a glib and once trustworthy spouse.

You are getting some very fine advice from Forever. Forever has long been a very eloquent and persuasive voice of a faith based recovery. If you can accept your husband's shortcomings then Forever may offer you a clear blueprint for rebuilding your M.

Thank you for your continued feedback. I realize that now is the time to pray and seek God's help in enduring. And have faith that God will lead to some kind of outcome for enduring other than just having to endure the same pain yet again? My taker is really in full force right now!

My H believes in God but will not follow any advice or teachings of his Catholic upbringing or Christian faith. It has all gone out the window, though he was never a religious person. He reads the Dali Lama now but I don't see that it has had any effect on him.

Thank you for your help and I will sincerely ask for your prayers for us.

Anne,

I have thought of your situation, since I last posted....and about your counselor's advice of asking yourself, if you can just accept him the way he is right now. This seems to me that your IC has presented the issue: take it or leave it.

I have to say, I don't agree. This means your FWH has no choice to adjust. Maybe you feel that he has already made the choice....but I wonder? Has he really? Does he REALLY understand that you would leave if he doesn't change?

I question whether he is this way---because he can be? Maybe knows he can have some limited contact--and still have you.

Your case may very well be different than mine, but one of the things that made me come forward, be radically honest--and continue to be from the start when it was hard--is that my BS set a really high standard for me....and without threatening made it know that anything below this standard would not be acceptable to him and would be enough for him to leave.

Now, being honest and faithful to him ultimately comes from me and my desires to be a better person and a better wife--but having that standard guided me in the beginning when I needed the courage to change my perspective and old habits.

Just food for thought....

Also, you are thinking about Plan D, without ever trying Plan B...when asked about Plan B, you were worried that it would be the end of your M...but so would a D??

Well, I already did two Plan B's and each time contact was found thereafter either counseled with Harley or he apologized and opened all accounts and passwords to me.
HE has not initiated contact with her in two years!

We had a discussion this morning about the no contact again. He feels very hurt that I threatened to leave the M after all that we have done to recover it. I think he was scared that I really would leave him. He knows I can not live with contact--I never verabalized what the counselor told me. He is "thinking about" what he will do--changing the cell phone number is still a possibility. Deep down he KNOWS contact is wrong and that it was stupid, but he is incapable (and I understand alot more of his family background etc to get this) of being the bad guy. If he did this, and it is bad, then he would be the bad guy--soooo the action must not be bad, because he is not bad. You see?

I am not defending him, I just want to work this out in a way that I can be heard. I also want to love him and show him real love so that he knows I love him even if he isn't always the "good guy." I don't want to compromise myself and just let him "abuse" me, but he did not call her and he is not in an affair. I don't want to make this worse than it is. After so long in recovery he was starting to feel better about himself by doing all that we needed to recover. Then this happens and he feels back to the lowest of the low again, but he can't admit that, not even to me. So instead he defends himself by saying that it was meaningless, etc.

I understand him I think, I will accept that for now, but I want progress and maturing to happen here. I am working on myself spiritually and trying to be aware of ego at work here. I want to grow from this experience. I know that I have grown from all this A stuff.

Bad for who? OW? Well what should he do that w/b considered good?

Nope, don't buy that babble. That is what it is....even if the are convinced it is the real reason.

Why? Because to a thief a good thing w/b to steal, to an honest person, that w/b a bad thing. Same action differing POV.

Is it babble to try and convince the police that stealing is good? Yes.

Should an Xws stoop to commiting a marital crime t/d good for an OW? Sounds stupid doesn't it?!?!? Well that 'cuz, it is.

L.

Despite your H past and upbringing, he himself can choose to change== to make you safer in the M. You don’t just have to take it or leave it that was all I was trying to say.

When you described the “bad guy” thing, you described me, only the female version. I had a hard time rejecting someone who was trying to be my “friend” or be “nice”….even if it meant that person was ultimately harming me, crossing boundaries. So I can relate to the state of mind you are describing. That is why I mentioned that having my H place a REALLY high standard—“I honestly cannot stay in the M if you EVER withhold something from me, fail to learn to draw boundaries, etc. ONE TIME. This is not a threat, but because I can not endure anymore pain and need to feel secure.”

You FWH is choosing between: your anger and his own feelings of fear of rejecting….rather than your M and his own feelings of rejecting. In the end, he chooses your anger, hurt feelings etc. it is the path of least resistance—consistent with the “bad guy” avoidance mentality. If he honestly thought you would leave without an NC letter, he would probably stop finding excuses and write one. He would face his own fear of rejecting and rise to the occasion.

Are you afraid of presenting that ultimatum to him? You seem to be turning the focus back onto you—your spirituality etc—instead of keeping the focus on HIS behavior. His behavior and unwillingness to adjust it so far seems to be the real problem.

My two cents, hope it doesn’t offend you.

No offense taken. Yes, I think you describe our situation well. I am trying to live with the reality that this is who he is, he is not going to change. And then I will see if I can live with this always or not.

Threatening to leave must be backed up with my KNOWING that I will do it, and I guess we both can see that I am not ready yet.

In one Plan B I was gone for three months and he had to drive 12 hours each way to see our daughter and I would not see him or talk to him. He knows I CAN and WOULD do it as I have left him in the past. If he is not in an A I wonder if doing that again is the right thing to do? He knows that I want NC and that I am waiting for his solution.

I can only control myself and I guess right now I am not too decisive!

You could just as easily say that you feel hurt (or surprised, or enraged) that he would jeopardize your marriage after all you have done to recover it. He is making the issue between you be your response to his contact with her, rather than the contact itself. His doing that would worry me more than the actual contact.

It's like the nose of the camel in the tent. If you buy into his reasoning ("We've come through so much; I didn't call her, she called me; I didn't tell you because I knew you'd be mad"), pretty soon you will have the whole camel in the tent. Why would he jeopardize your marriage just to find out OW's wedding plans, is what I'd like to know.

The truth is, he is on the knife's edge. His affair threatened your whole sense of safety in the marriage, and any little thing can destroy what's left. You can't protect him from that knowlege; I'm not even sure you should try. He has the power to hang up a phone-it's not hard. It's his choice whether or not to exert that power. Whatever the choice he makes, the consequences are his to accept.

I agree wholeheartedly. I talked to my H again this morning and he told me that he is changing his cell phone number so she can not call him again. He still doesn't get it altogether though.

I wonder if his not getting it is a self defense mechanism to stay the good guy or if he really is that selfish and insensitive? It is scary, I will admit. I know I can't control him and I have "made my case" about a million times. The bottom line is that protecting me from being hurt really isn't in his mind and may never be. I think it is immaturity and unwillingness to look inside himself to see why he lives this way. He will do only so much I guess.

Anne,

Consider asking your husband to call Steve Harley, and have HIM explain to your husband WHY it's necessary to tell you everytime contact has been made.

He needs a refresher course. It's the lying/dishonesty of him keeping that call from you that has shaken your trust.

My husband made this same mistake ONCE; for the same reason your husband did....and since then he's told me of every contact; even the inconsequential ones.

That level of honesty is the only way to truly feel safe. This is something difficult for the BS to educate the WS regarding....he needs to hear it from SH IMHO!

You know Anne, sometimes that is the very stone cold fact that we have to accept. IF this is the case with your WH....the next step is to ask yourself "can I live with this from my WH for the rest of my life"...I am not saying that this will be for the rest of your life...but you have been a good while out of D-Day, and your WH clearly doesn't "get it" still. He may never "get it"...that doesn't mean you have to get divorced or anything like that...it all will probably depend on what YOU CAN AND CAN'T LIVE WITH.

Yes, I know this is not the soothing "it will be all ok, your Husband loves you, he chose you over the OW"...talk you may want to hear...I am sorry, but I don't think it is that cut and dry.

Goodluck,

LEm <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Okay, Anne, so he's not a Christian, or at least one who CHOOSES to act as if he is not. He is still your husband, and you have two choices....leave him or live with him.

IF he changes his cell phone number, whether or not he "get's it" the way YOU would "get it," he is TRYING to live with you as a husband "should." IF he were not, then I'd tell you to LET HIM GO, as Paul instructed those who are unevenly yoked.

BUT, if you choose to STAY, YOU need to stop "worrying the bone" and accept that he is NOT staying with you as a "Christian husband." He is NOT staying because he is being "obedient to God," and is not staying for any reason other than self-interest and that he thinks he loves you.

From all that you have posted, your husband HAS tried his best to live with you as a husband. But he does NOT view his "choices" as something that should honor and obey GOD, so his "handling" of this ONE phone call really shouldn't surprise or upset you. It's what you "signed on for" in an unevenly yoked marriage. There will always BE things in an unevenly yoked marriage that the unbelieving spouse will "never get," because it involves surrender to God first, let alone surrender to you.

"Answers" are not found in the Dali Lama, or in any other human, philosopher or whatever. "Answers" are found in acknowledging our OWN sinful, depraved, state and the forgiveness found in Jesus Christ. It all ultimately boils down to WHO is going to occupy the "throne of our own life." The person who sits there is LORD and Sovereign and "makes the rules."

As Joshua put it, "Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

God bless....and you can count of prayers for you and your husband.