My WW is deeply in the fog now, and I'm getting as crazy as she is. We keep agreeing to try again, then she will break NC and I will get mad and tell her I want a D. She will tell me that she still loves me and doesn't want D and I will change my mind and agree to try again. I am changing from one emotion to another every minute or so. Why can't I leave it alone and follow plan A?

Tired41;

Please find posted below my post from just a few minutes ago to SoAlone. From what I read above it seems to cover your situation as well. If you want to save your marriage read up on the Marriage Builder's plan and stick to it. Do not mention Divorce. Everytime you back down from your line in the sand you become weaker and perceived as such by WW. You are not winning her back with that strategy. Divorce should be what her and your attorney do...you only do marriage. Only after Plan A and Plan B will you be emotional prepared for divorce. You've got a long way to go so read up.

Good luck, Mr. Wondering

[color:"blue"] Edited to add: READ BOBPURE.'S POST THERE AS WELL [/color]


[color:"red"]
So So So Alone;

I concur with the posters above. You are going to have to stand up to her for yourself and your kids. You mentioned you have been in Plan A & B. However, to me it sounds as though you have been in Plan Appeasement.

Do not take offense...We all made mistakes in this process. Dr. Harleys proven marital recovery process is a known proven path to reconciliation. Some of the things you are being told to do may be counter-intuitive but doing nothing will only insure that nothing changes.

So here goes. You have been trying to Plan A unsuccessfully for 3 months, however, in order to go to Plan B you must complete Plan A. You can do this rather quickly as the posters above pointed out you should be seeking legal counsel and filing for custody, to protect your children from this continued abuse. Plan is involves a carrot and a stick. Here is a copy of Pepperband's post describing Plan A.


[color:"red"] SOALONE...have you fully exposed this affair to friends, family, workplace of wife and OM?????? Have you merely been the happy go lucky BH or have you firmly stated your position as it relates to her affair??? Do you want to save your marriage??? Are you willing to make, discuss and implement a plan to bust up this affair????

SO...Who is OM? What does he do? What are his weaknesses? Is he married? Does his wife, girlfriend, mother/father know? We/I know he is a sad replacement for you but what are his insecurities which we/you can exploit???

This carrot and stick Plan A should be implemented immediately while on the backside you prepare yourself legally. Action Plan today...Call and set up an appointment with an experienced divorce attorney.

As far as custody. Your WW has abandoned the home; but you did too for a short period. Have you been keeping a handwritten journal of what you do and what she doesn't do for your children? Do you want full primary custody? You can always share custody later but in these cases it is best to protect and set an example to your children from adulterous behavior. In case of a custody fight as a man you must be overly prepared to battle such action with documentation. Ask questions here and read Mortarman's posts on Gramns thread from last June for more information

Also, Plan B. Again, read Gramn's thread from about 3 weeks ago when he implemented Plan B. He had difficulty implementing it...you will need a Plan B letter and organize a plan to implement it for its desired effect. Your WW will not like Plan B and if you waffle on it, then it will not work effectively nor efficiently. I had a boundary that I refused to be in a loveless marriage and contact with OM must stop to achieve a loving marriage.

You have got much to learn rather quickly. Try to spend some time here today/tomorrow discussing your situation in a give and take atmosphere. You've got access to a wealth of information and experienced Marriage Builder's that can help you through this. Read up on Orchid's Reverse Babble to assist you with communicating with your WW.

You will make it, with or without your wife...you will make it.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- If you can afford it set up an appointment with the true professional's, Dr. Harley or Jennifer.[/quote] [/color][/color]

Tired

What would you do if you weren't afraid ?

Thanks for the replies. I know that Mr. Wondering is right. bOb, if I wasn't afraid I would probably get a D. It's hard right now to imagine life without her, but I guess I've had it that way for awhile now.

Tired - Agree with the above.

Additionally, stop "offering" a divorce. This alludes to what Bob is asking. Make up your mind about that. All other plans flow from there. Since this is MarriageBuilders, I assume you want to stay married. It sounds like your WW wants to as well.

Good, you both have the same goal, you just don't know how to get there. Its time for you and her to learn. You read up on this site, read Surviving an Affair, get a plan together, get MC, and start getting to work. I'm not trying to be harsh, just telling you to act.

Your in a vicious cycle right now because you keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Get your plan together and tell folks about it. Many can help you from there.

Thanks rprynne. I agree with all you said. I'm not sure WW wants to save the marriage or what she wants. Everytime I ask I get the "I don't know what I want" answer. She says she does not want a D. Are the "I don't know" and "sometimes" answers typical in something like this? I'm very frustrated because if she wants to save this M, I will do anything I can toword that goal. If she doesn't, lets get this over with. I just don't know if she will try or if she is just cake eating.

41

She is merely cake eating. She doesn't necessarily want to. I am sure she would love to make up her mind but she can't so she must keep both of you on the fence.

My wife rode the fence as well. It is textbook WS behavior. Your marriage wasn't that terrible but she can not figure out how to give up OM. She probably wishes you would allow her a "test" period. A Time for her to discover if the feelings she has for OM will "last forever". It is the best drug she has ever tasted but deep down she mistrusts whether or not it is real. IT IS NOT REAL and you as the BS are the only one capable and vested to pull her out of this FANTASY relationship. Not only is it not real but it may take up to 2 years for her to figure out it is not real if you do NOTHING.

BTW, I am not just throwing that 2 year number out there. It is a documented average length of affair relationships that are left to run their course.

This presents a few problems for you.

First, the longer you wait to bust up this secret affair the deeper into it she gets.

Second, the longer you wait the less "love" for her you will have in your "love bank" for her by the time you do convince yourself to take action.

Finally, by accepting "I don't know's" you are playing right into the hands of OM. Trust me, he and she both know what you should be doing and I am sure OM is outplaying you with conversations pertaining to what he as a "Man" would do about him. The longer you wait to take action the wimpier you look to WW. This is not attractive. You need to be the man your wife married.

You can not afford to wait any longer. If YOU want to save your marriage, YOU are the only one that can do it right now. Looking to your wife to "try" is a waste of your time. This is not high school anymore. You took an oath to GOD and this woman to LOVE and PROTECT her in SICKNESS (addiction to OM) and in health. Man up and live up to YOUR vows if only so you can proceed with your life one day WITHOUT REGRET.

Your marriage can be better the ever before but you must start today. You will make it.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- Divorce is a serious decision that should not be made during an emotional crisis. For now, I recommend strongly you commit only to Plan A/B. They also are about regaining YOUR integrity and enabling/preparing you to move on and be ready for divorce should you not achieve complete marital reconciliation.

I'm realtively new to this, but yes, most WS's say I don't know what I want. They go back and forth. IMO, some WS's assume the BS's will immediately demand a divorce. They have rewritten history so much, decided that their BS's cares for them so little, that they expect it. This is how many justify the A.

If you say, yes I want a divorce, it justifies their actions. But, if you say I want to work on the M, they are all of sudden completely confused. They expected you to make the decision for them.

But, more to the point. Your WW's actions have denied you a choice. Now you have that choice. What do you want to do with it. Cause even though I'm new at this, I can tell you, if you want your M, the burden is going to be on you for a while. The roller coaster is too up and down for you not to have made that decision.

To make this choice, you don't have to know whether she will try or not. There just aren't any guarentees. Some sitch's look promising and then turn terrible, some look great and then collapse. Don't base your decision on what you think she will do, nobody can predict that. Base it on what you want. Base it on what you are willing to do.

You decide are you going to fight for your M or not. If you are, what's your plan.

Kiiler post-Rprynne

41ER - DO YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE??????

If so...what is your plan????

Fear is an instinct God gave us to stop us placing ourselves in danger.

Tired your worst outcome is already here. Nothing else to fear. Your life can't get more wretched than it is.
Realise that you have already lost your WW. While she is not in NC and working on your M, she is not yours. Consider her affair active.

Fear is not helping you. It is obscuring the fact that the nuke has already hit and your W is cake eating.

Are you claiming permission to be paralysed by fear ?

If so Absolutely we BS have that !!

Its just that such is not typically a response that rebuilds marriages or self esteem. It gets, well, what you have now. hope and fear mized into a trembling, barely breathing marrige.

I was devastated by Squid's afair. Paralysed for WEEKS from doing anything effective. Pathetic in my instict to settle from crumbs from Squid rather than have her end her affair.

One day the penny dropped within me that a grovelling , mewling and puking BS is not an attractive one. OM was strutting around giving * ME * marriage advice FFS !!!!

So when Mel & Wat beat up on me to expose to his GF ( together 14 years, kids) the INDIGANTION welled up in me.

I wanted OM to bear the consequences of what he had done. If he and Squid ended up together then so be it, but my snivelling wouldn't prevent that. I had faced up to stuff all my life and I would again now.
So I exposed to OMS GF. Then I puked in the bushes with fear and relief.
And there was a faint, barely perceptable itch in my right hand as the situation whip passed from the infidels to the BS.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In that moment , Tired, I became a Knight, and left my 'serf' personality behind.

NOTHING helped me recover from this HUGE insult more than my getting mad and doing the brave, righteous thing.
Trouble is Tired, self pity and grief requires a sympathetic audience to be effecive or useful IMO. And the OP could give a shiny sh*t about the BS and the WS is just sickened by the patheticness of the BS, and it reinforces their rewrite of history which portrays the BS in a negative light.

So grieve, be sad but be COURAGEOUS too. By responding bravely , a BS takes the steps that have been proven time and time again to help end affairs and kickoff recovery WHILE ALSO displaying admirable traits that the FWS may come to respect again after the fog dissipates.

I rose up , stood erect and spat righteously in the eye of the affair. You want a fight, demon of infidelity? well YOU'RE ON !.

OM cringed and cowed. BEGGED me to leave him alone. OM GF thanked me earnestly for giving her the choice in life OM denied her.
Squid HATED my actions at the time, but has since told me that I was 'heroic' back then.
I was so low, Tired that I filled myself with wine and ADs and drove my car into a tree. I was a foot away from not walking away from that wreck.

I have moved from strength to strength since then all because I have NOT let my fear or grief dictate my actions.
And Tired, I am not an extraodinary man. These boards are LITTERED with BS who decided " enough!" and fought the affair with righteous anger.

Finally, Tired you have the RIGHT to respond in any way you think fit. But long may Melody Lane advise the warrior's route to crushed BS as a way to restore their self confidence and dignity and end the affair.

Remember what Roosevelt said :


And if you want to know where your current train of thought can lead CLICK HERE

all blessings tired. ALL blessings.

I want to save this marriage. I have read the website and plan to implement Plan A immediately. I have already exposed the affair to family, friends and coworkers. I do have a question on NC. Should I be asking everyday if NC is maintained, or should I ask at all? Each cycle we go through, I try to meet her needs, things seem to improve, only to learn that she has had contact. That's when I usually commit LB's.

Tired

If your WW wants to contact OM she will. No amount of snooping will stop her.

it is your WWs responsibility to ensure that you BELIEVE her NC. Transparency is a great way to achieve this. most WS utterly HATE it though.

NC was (and remains) a boundary of mine.

I.e. NC is avoidable and hurtful. I would not expose myself to sustained deliberate hurt and damage to our marriage. Squid neded to convince me she was staying NC.

I checked TOO in the early days just to corroborate Squid's transparency, but the primaty onus was on Squid. She HATED not being able to blame me for snooping. But this only worked because she knew I would leave if I did not feel safe.

Squid soon becae transparent and remains so even now.

You must be prepared to remove yourself from abuse T41. Boundaries. they lay the responsibility for progress with the wayward one.

BTW the most effective exposure is to OMs significant other. Do some research. Believe NOT A WORD your WW has told you about him being single or divorcing or whatever. They all lie.

Stop committing LB's. Your in Plan A and you want your marriage. Good. These are the first steps. (My simple version) The other links probably describe it better.

Expose
Avoid LB's
Keep Snooping
Confront about contact. (You can confront without LB's, you have to stay calm)

My main advice is to detach your emotions for a while. There was a good post on here about that. You have plan, follow it, no need to get emotional and LB.

So what is her reason for continued contact. Does she say they are just friends? Does she say she can't help herself? Does she agree contact in ruinous to the marriage?

She has gave all kind of reasons, including they are just friends, she doesn't want to give up a friend, he makes her laugh, crap like that. Lately she has said that she doesn't know why she can't break contact, and that the whole thing is so stupid. She has always said that she has no desire to permanently be with him.

t41 thats all bollocks from your WW.

Tell her she knows it shurtful to you whether or not she thinks it SHOULD be and its her choice to hurt you with a highly inapprorpiate friendship or not.

Does she agree that this is an affair?

And back to my other question, does she agree that contact is ruinous to the M?

Most of what she said sounds like fog talk.

She's never addressed it as an affair. To her, it's more like a friendship that got out of control. She did tell me that sometimes she desires him sexually, but she wants him more as a friend. (FOG talk).

She does agree that continued contact will kill the marriage and doesn't know why she keeps making the contact.

Another point. She said that he never makes first contact, she always does. Why would she say that?

T41 listen to me: ITS BOLLOCKS.

Don't try to understand a word she says. It fog.

Search Orchid's posts on reverse babble.

You need to be steady, clear , brave and firm. Or carry on like you are. Up to you.

I agree for the most part with what Bob said. But there is a difference between trying to help a WW through WD versus dealing with a cakeeater. Disagree Bob?

Either way, your going to need a NC letter.