Hi, What an uneventful week it's been. Since my "date", breaking of Plan B, I've heard from WH twice but not replied. I haven't spoken to him since I kissed him goodbye. It's been a week of coming to terms with what a jacka$$ he really is.

It's becoming more and more apparent that everything he says to me is a lie. He lied about when he got back from his trip. He lied about thinking nobody was home when he snuck up and dropped off DD's birthday present. He lied about changing some billing information on an account. He lied about taking DD to lunch on her day off today. He lied about calling Steve Harley. However, as everyone knows, none of these fabrications or betrayals should make me angry in the least....not.

I'm thinking that perhaps I need a new Plan B letter. I'm not exactly sure what to put into it. Any ideas? Should it be the full blown letter again? The same letter modified? Something short like "Your lies and the way you treat me and your children hurt. Bugger off!"

All suggestions taken. Plan B is a beautiful place to be.

GG - No letter is going to make him stop lying. It will only give you a fix to send it.

Stay dark. As you said, keep to the blackout.

(((grapegirl)))
Mulan

I think that once somebody starts lying they just can't stop. I don't understand it but I believe it's so.

Today was a test. I had hoped that he would at least remember our discussion about DD being home by herself all day. The man had scads of vacation time. I thought, silly me, that I could make it easy on him. I wouldn't be here. He could take DD out to lunch. If he couldn't even call her on her birthday, why would I be so delusional about this?

Black, ebony, noir, negro, schwarz, nero, a complete absence of light.

My FWH said he lied so much that he started believing his lies...

LIAR, LIAR..IT'S THEIR MIDDLE NAME as long as it's a WS...

I don't think it would be a problem for you to do another PLAN B LETTER since you broke PLAN B so boldly...you can mention the most recent developments...

Grape:

I am interested in knowing what the "endpoint" is for you? I know that there is another poster on this board who is giving herself one year (now considering two years I think) of Plan B before making plans for a Divorce. Do you have such a long term plan or end point for dealing with this nonsense from your WH?

Your Wayward Husband, for all intents and purposes seems like a miserable human being and excuse for a person and father. I know the rationale for Plan B....however, the Plan B is not an easy thing to do, and is a struggle for many, so I want to know if there is still a "big part" of you that wants to reconcile this marriage? I can only assume that you still greatly want this man back as there would be no other reason to continue with the "plans" right?

I am not giving you advice here, I just want to know where you stand now. Your actions of last week suggest to me that your WH could have you and the family back with relative ease....how far gone are you? When you say he is a jack A$$...how much of that is "affair related" or character "related"....? I get the very real sense that your WH was not a "good family man, father or husband" even before the affair.

I sometimes wonder how much of this marriage and the good reflections of your WH were "rewritten".............BY YOU?

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lemonman,

Once again, you are keeping me up at night. I have been lying in bed pondering your question. Actually, it's something I think about quite often. I have been married for roughly, a million and a half years. Perhaps, it's an old habit. I've probably been married for almost as long as you have been alive.

I think there's a BS tendency to think that something will happen to change our WS. A part of me had hoped that a month alone on a business trip with little or no contact with family and less work pressures would bring him around. Our meeting proved to me that he is as unrepentant as ever. He's still got this sugar-daddy thing going with OW. WH is like an overgrown or perhaps undergrown teenager with an amazing selfish streak and sense of entitlement. Most of all, it's the lies that I cannot stomach.

LM, it's been baby steps. I've changed the locks. I've seen a lawyer. I've gotten a job. I am not doing a year of Plan B. It's difficult to make the final break after so much time together, children, inlaws and common property. My inlaws think that if I could just be nicer and speak more sweetly to their conflict avoiding son that everything will be okay. My kids hate the whole thing. I think it's been very detrimental to my boys in college. WH has alienated them to the point where they don't want to be around him.

I keep asking myself if I really need to not do things until after the Holidays. The mom part says to have a nice Christmas. The realistic part says that WH will make it a miserable Christmas.

I try to resist being a revisionist. I can just think about the crappy things WH has done and that certainly builds resolve. I think he has always been a horrible husband and father. I think he has no idea about what it means to be a husband and a father. I don't see that changing. I fear that even if something happened and we got back together, he would do it again. Or I would become a WW.

I know that I need more than I'm getting. I'm tired of living in a big house with DD. I'm tired of the maintenance, the aloneness. I was married for a long time. I would like another person in my life but I will not do it until this is done. I hate limbo. I am a very strong person. I will survive and flourish.

I'll probably edit this in the morning. Nightie night.

Grape:

I've been thinking about you this morning.

I've been trying to get a sense of what's really going on with you.

You flip-flop from one extreme to the other.

To a degree, I agree with Lemon. It's almost like you set yourself up to fail. You make it look like you want your marriage-in a superficial sense. You go on a date with your WH in the middle of PLAN B? This is not a slip like some posters. You purposefully did this. Why? To make it look like you want to work on things? You are smart enough to know after being here that that wouldn't work. Did you think that you have the power to convince him in that interchange to STOP HIS AFFAIR? Do you really believe that YOU are that MAGICAL and POWERFUL?

Why not stick to your guns with PLAN B? That's the best solution right now for the Recovery of your marriage. Maybe you don't want to RECOVER your marriage. Then go ahead and admit that to yourself....

You said:



There is a strategy for you to use right now: PLAN B

I don't understand why you feel that your situation is SOOO different...that your WH is SOOOO different....Why do you think that "AFTER A MONTH" he would change after being this way for so long?

You are not special or unique, Grape nor is your WH ,IMHO. He is a typical middle-aged powerbroker WH. That makes him into a deceitful, narcissistic liar and all that entails.. NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER WH! You have been married it seems FOREVER..so have I. You had to go to work..SO DID I. You thought you had the fairy tale life..SO DID I...

I came to learn that I am human like everyone else. My H is human like everyone else.. My children had to learn that they are not so special. Life is full of problems. People have hardships. SO THERE.... WE FALL DOWN BUT WE CAN GET UP....




Here you go with the SHOW stuff..the superficialities...
What is more important..a happy marriage..or a good Christmas in 2005? If I were you, I would be PLANNING ON A PLAN B CHRISTMAS.....

This will take TIME..a MAJOR WAKEUP CALL FOR YOU, YOUR CHILDREN AND YOUR WH....

I agree with what ark told you a long time ago...I didn't then but I do now... Your WH can change..But do you really want him to? Do you want to invest the time, effort and energy into this relationship to allow it to happen? Or do you want to continue with the show?



I'm not sure I believe this. You've been married to him forever, have three children with him, have made efforts to reconcile and you really feel this way? This sounds like a great rationalization for seeking a divorce. Go ahead and make that decision to divorce if that is what you are wanting. However, that does not have to happen in your situation, IMHO....

I really wanted to say sumpin last nite on this thread, but couldn't, had to think hard about it. Probably still haven't thought hard enuf, but here goes!

GG, Can you say co-dependant with me, cause maybe we are, you and I. That was my first thought, well, after wanting to jump in and help you beat your H because of his lies! Going thru all that and some here also. Trying to figure out if my H will ever change?1 He certainly won't tell the truth about much. oops, sorry, this is about you.

Well, mimi, you said
" Did you think that you have the power to convince him in that interchange to STOP HIS AFFAIR? Do you really believe that YOU are that MAGICAL and POWERFUL?"

Why shouldn't the BS think that they have this power sometimes, after being told how they(BS) MADE the WS lie/stray/fillintheblank. My girlfriend and I laff about this, "WOW, I didn't know that you were that powerful" , "How did you make him do THAT" ?!

According to my H, I MAKE him lie to me, I make him act the way he does- I can do this with a wiggle of my nose, or a few argumentative statements... WHY shouldn't I be able to MAKE him stop lying?!!

GG, I am no expert, but Stay dark....I am speaking from my own experience, I wish I would've. And write him the note/Plan B reiteration whatever. Just expect him to dissapoint you AGAIN, by not getting it! And then expect that then you will possibly become more bitter and hurt that he STILL doesn't get it.

I've always liked you gg, I really hate to see you going thru this pain again, when you seemed to be doing better.

jls

The key word here is MAGICAL...

There is no magic in this...

I've been there and thought I could just tell my WH to stop and that he could certainly logically understand how destructive he was being....

It takes the HARD WORK of struggling to STAY DARK IN PLAN B and to WORK on our OWN PERSONAL RECOVERY....

We only have POWER over ourselves...not anyone else...

A REAL HARD LESSON THAT I'M CONTINUING TO LEARN even as I type this post...

Mimi- who is angry at her 19 year old son today.....

"It takes the HARD WORK of struggling to STAY DARK IN PLAN B and to WORK on our OWN PERSONAL RECOVERY..."

I am sure that you are right about this mimi, as I have yet to learn!

Mimi, I am going to just come out and say this without beating around the bush. That was one excellent post you made that I quoted above.

You said everything that I wanted to say, but just better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lemon:

I'm learning and growing...

Just like you are....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm beginning to feel like it's jump on Grape Day. This is really NOT a good day for stomping grapes. I'm really sleep-deprived, I ache all over and have not had a good day. MB is one of my best supports and I feel slammed.

1) I do not think of myself as an all-powerful person with mystical, magical powers to get mine or any other WS to wake up. I'm just an ordinary, hurting, overwork, overwhelmed, "single" parent. A person who misses ????, my husband, my life, my undamaged children? I've never been through this before and I don't hope to again.

2) I'm not the only person who has ever broken Plan B on this board but apparently preceived as the one who has done it in a malicious, premediated, "I'm better than everybody else" manner. I'll think on that but it's not really in my character. My DD, after being extremely disappointed by her father asked me to meet with her father. Would you have the heart to say "NO." especially if you preceived that perhaps some progress had been made.

3) I can see that there have been problems in my marriage for a long time. If you want me to quote chapter and verse on that, I can. I just don't believe that particular laundry needs to be aired here? Shall I? There are many things, episodes, problems that I avoided for many years because I was a SAHM with 3 children. I tried to get WH to MC many times. Do you want to know it all? Mimi, perhaps your marriage was perfect before the A. Sometimes, I sense that you feel that you DROVE your FWH to that affair. And that it was all of the improvements that you made to yourself that brought him back. Remember how many false recoveries you had before you really entered recovery?

4) My perception of Lemonman's posts have always been to ask why would any of us put up with the garbage WSs throw our way. I feel like his last post was a flip flop on his former positions.

5) I don't think the thoughts that your WH might possibly cheat on you again after recovery are a rationalization for divorce. Those thoughts are a fact-of-life for many people on these boards.

6) I am in Plan B and I plan to stay in Plan B. My idea of a good Christmas is one where I'm still in Plan B and have NOT filed for divorce. I intend to stay in Plan B for a while. I will not be like some of the poor souls on this board who stay in limbo for years. How long did it take Lemonman to get divorced? 6 months?

7) Because I do not think my self to be perfect and am an analytical person, I will continue my personality analysis. I do a lot of self-examination.

8) Remember, every BS on this board has the right to declare that they have had enough.'

9) Just because a poster is angry with someone else in their lives doesn't mean they should extend this anger on to someone else on this board.

10) This is why people on this forum decide they don't want to post anymore. You get flamed a few times and decide that maybe people just don't care. Don't drive people away. We are all on a road to somewhere.

Okay, go ahead and slam me, flame me, tell me what a meglomaniac I am. I'm going to go work out and will hopefully come back feeling more serene. It would be a much better strategy if ya'all were supportive and gentle. For Christ's sake, I AM IN PLAN B.

((((((GG))))))

Whoaa...I'm not trying to slam you at all..

I was TRYING to help you. Believe me..it takes extra time out of my day to post here. I don't post to everyone, Grape...only those that I have a special affinity towards helping..

I have no reason to try to jump on you...

It's just my opinion...

I'm truly sorry if you feel hurt by what I said. It came from my heart. I spent time thinking about you this morning and you are a stranger to me. I really wish you no harm.

I have some thoughts about your post but I don't want you to feel slammed. Let me know if you want me to respond in an honest manner or not to your numbered responses and I will. It you do not want to converse with me any longer. that's alright with me, too....

Were you trying to strike out at me? OK. I took the hit if you were. It seems like you were being cruel. I hope you weren't trying to do that...

You said:



I LIVED A NIGHTMARE..I've been through H#LL and back..Nothing about my life has been perfect...NOTHING....I've never said that and never will..

I was sorely hurt by my H's affair and continue to be pained by it. Do you see why I ask if you think that you are special? I'm saying that I have felt your same pain..My pain continues....

My marriage is BETTER but only through continued BLOOD, SWEAT and TEARS on both of our parts....

My OS told me how my H started crying today when he spoke at a businessmen meeting....in front of hundreds of people....

You seem to have some distorted view of my past..

I hope you know that I am the biggest PLAN B FAILURE that there is....and sometimes I did it on purpose...

I admit it.....

It would be a much better strategy if ya'all were supportive and gentle. For Christ's sake, I AM IN PLAN B.

No...you aren't in a real Plan B until you STOP focusing on what your H is or is not doing...what he lied or didn't lie about...what he is doing or isn't doing...Christmas with or without him...or ANYTHING at all about him.

Plan B is NOT about him...it is about YOU and what YOU should be doing.

What has gentle got to do with being supportive? It would serve you better if people were blunt with you...you have been at this for quite a while now and it isn't getting any better for you.

IMHO
committed

I've taken a little nap and had a workout. Oddly enough, my lawyer belongs to my gym. I saw her there today. She never initiates conversation but just seeing her makes me think about the future.

Like so many BS, I feel really lonely and pressured. While I really like my job, I wished I had one day/week to myself. I just never seem to get my house cleaned up. Dinner is an effort. I just want to retreat into myself but I still have to be a rock for my kids. My lovebank is sooooo empty.

Mimi, I would really like you to answer about how you preceived your marriage was before your husband's affair. Did you think it was a good marriage, an equal marriage? Were there signs of trouble? Was the A a surprise? Do you think you were truly not fulfilling many of your H's needs?

Is he working his butt off as hard on recovery as you are? Is he completely remourseful? Do his tears have to do with a new tenderness in his heart?

I'm just feeling extremely low. Of course, I'm keeping to Plan B. After being told what a horrible person I am, why should I talk with the guy? He's made no real effort to speak with his daughter. My inlaws are in denial. Almost every word out of WH's mouth is a lie. I'm going to need a lot of strength in the next few months. I'm going to need the support to hold to Plan B when everybody is pressuring me to either be his doormat or divorce him.

I don't want my old husband back. I don't want my old marriage back. My wish would be for each of us to work on ourselves to make a new and different marriage. I can't be the only one making the effort.

My biggest wish right now would be for 10 hours of uninterrupted, deep, refreshing sleep. Oh yeah, and a big bear hug.

Keep posting Mimi. I'm not trying to strike out at anybody. I'm just a hurting human.

{{{{GG))))

Working on ourselves is what Plan B is supposed to do, right? What the WS does is unfortunately out of our control.....It is just best that way. We can only hope that they improve themselves or "find" themselves.

I hope you find some time where you can just do nothing!

Take care!

Kim

You know grape, I think I smell a little invite to a pity party here....that's ok you know....."woe is me" is all part of this process. Everyone here has been there. You cannot expect to post some ramblings and then take your ball and go home when you don't like what people say to you.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />...if you just wanted to vent and open a bottle of "wine"....you just have to say so...that is ok too......I would have been glad to watch from the bleachers and not get involved. You just got to say so girl. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I will always say this to you.....you know people don't really give a $hit about your situation anymore when they stop posting to you....I would consider yourself blessed that people still post to you about your situation....don't take this the wrong way however...people post because they want to and they care, NOT because they want to stomp on your parade or kick you down so that you feel lower than a dirt trader in Pakistan.....You don't ever want to be a poster who people "fram" their repsonses to becasue they are too afraid of saying what they really feel. YOU DON'T WANT THIS....There are plenty of people that are active like that on this forum.

Whether you realize it or not, my nemesis here (Mimi..just kdding) hit a homerun with what she said to you. Yeah, it may not have exactly been what you were looking for specifically today...but I have no doubt that when you get some sleep, eat a good meal, get a shower, drink a hot cup of coffee and think about it...you will "get it".

As to your perception of my "flip flopping" on your situation from my usual stance, I think you have misintereted my post (I don't blame you, I am a left brained guy, and am not very good with language skills and verbal expression).. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I could not say it any better than Mimi said. I think you don't even know if you want your Husband back (note that I didn't put Wayward in front). I worry that you feel bad and are in personal turmoil because you feel you are "supposed" to want to fight to the death for your marriage and WANT to use all of the marriage principles to win your marriage back....but when you look at the balance sheet at the end of the day, you are realizing that maybe you just don't want that...When you see your daughters pain and devestation, you do what any great mother and protector does, you do whatever you can do to "make it beter" right then....and when that does NOT predictabbly work, you get what you are in today.

We don't begrudge you for doing this...but just want you to see the bigger picture. WHat is the bigger picture for you? That is what I asked you. Maybe, as Mimi said, you want the "perception" of a good marriage and the "perception" of a good family life....but deep down inside of your heart of hearts you already know the outcome of this, and know that your WH will not now, or ever step to the plate and be the man and father he committed to be when he married you and willingly fathered three children.


As to my situation....Yes, I divorced quickly....much quicker than the average MB member. It is no stretch to say that my personal demographics are not the norm here and that my personal situation and POV may not be particualrly helpful to many here. I have many reasons for doing what I did. For one, I am God blessed to be very well off financially and can fully support myself in a very good lifestyle.....lest noone here for one second NOT deny that this puts many BS at a severe disadvantage when they are betrayed and are financially dependent on a Wayward spouse who usually will NOT or CANNOT do the right thing financially.....whether we want to admit that or not, it plays a major factor. Divorce is a financial nightmare for many people...I would venture to sadly say most people. Second...I am young and without the "history" many of you have...third..I have no children, making my decision much easier as to not have to consider anyone else's life.....but finally...and the very reason that may allow me to extoll some helpful advice or support to others here....a second betrayal was an ABSOLUTE boundary to me, that I forbid to move. A second betrayal was not something that I could forgive MY WIFE for (as my XW, I have been able to do that...but for purely selfish reasons <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />)....I did what I did FOR ME...I don't pretend to have ever used "Harley" principles to recover a marriage..a fact that I am admittedly very open about here....I however did use this message board and the wisdom from many others to save myself...which in the end, was of much greater value to me, and I would like to say to other people in this life. I am a much better person and doctor being "recovered".....As a "recovered" man, I am better for our community...for that, I owe the Harley's and members of this board a huge debt of gratitude.....3 months ago I could not have admitted that to myself.

Well, I am not sure where this was all going.....but I have never shown you the "kid gloves" that you have wanted around here from me...why should I start now? You know if I did that, it would be disingenous...there are many others that can give you that.

Your down, your depressed, you feel like $hit...OK....but so what? We all have been there. You have to think about WHAT YOU WANT HERE. As some may disagree...NOT WHAT YOUR CHILDREN WANT...Not what your In-Laws want, and not what society wants...NOPE.....This one is on your girl. You can't move forward untill YOU know what you want.

So I ask you again...what exactly is that?

Think about that.

Your friend in fruit fellowship !

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well said Lem!

Grape, are you in IC? If not, find an excellent IC. You need some personal recovery before you can sort out the marriage stuff. Stay in Plan B IMHO, and spend your time wisely working on your personal recovery.

Blessings to you and your children. You can role model to them what personaly recovery is all about. That is within your control..

The jury is still out regarding your marital recovery, but that is secondary to your personal recovery.