When I asked my boyfriend for his view on marriage he informed me that he believes marriage is, "a practical solution to a problem." He believes there needs to be a reason for getting married (ie. children, health care insurance...) While I understand this view, I told him there are other valid reasons for marriage (ie. spiritual/emotional). Can you all help me list other reasons? Children are not in our future and we both have health care. Besides, if he married me in order to help me out w/health insurance, I would not feel very valued!

Based on my hard-earned life experience, I let my bf know I will not live with him, outside of marriage. Meantime, he's promised his total love and dedication to our relationship. He's committed to the concept of enthusiastic mutal agreement. We've promised eachother to avoid the Love Busters and I see we are honoring our agreements. Now, I think we have great compatibility, mutual understanding of how to love and nurture our relationship and the foundation for a great marriage.

If he would ask me to marry him I would say yes and I would move to SF where he lives (I currently reside in So. Cal). The miles between us are excrutiating. We both would rather live together but, I'm standing strong on my principles and frankly, don't understand why he keeps wanting me to live with him, knowing I can't outside of marriage. The practical solution to this problem seems clear to me but, not to him! Since we've already vowed to create a mutual, caring, committed relationship I think marriage would solve this living together dilemma, wouldn't it? Perhaps I'm missing something... I'm starting to think we may have a fundamental, irreconcilable difference. I am open to thoughts on this situation.

signed, Confused. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Does he see marriage as harmful or negative in any way?

If not, and if you've made it clear that it is important to you, then I'm not sure what his objection would be.

If he does see it as negative in some way, I think discussing what he sees as its potential negatives would be helpful...the better you two understand each other's point of view, the more likely you are to resolve things.

Do I take it that your reason is "spiritual/emotional"? Can you articulate a little more what you mean by that? By the way, I am not disagreeing with you...I think marriage has a very strong spiritual dimension. But, I'd like to better understand how you state that to your BF...and how he reacts to your reasons as stated.

Kathi

Kathi,

Thanks for your response. I appreciate the dialog.

My boyfriend does have negative associations to marriage. For example, he referred to how mean some of his family members became during the course of divorce. Children were involved and the entire thing was very tough on everyone -- including extended family members. I let him know I think that reflects more on the individuals and less on marriage itself. From the conversation, we agreed to NEVER name call or behave in a mean or hurtful manner toward each other -- no matter how tough circumstances may be.

In response to your request that I elaborate on the spiritual/emotional values of marriage: My experience has been that living outside of marriage equates a "foot out the door." I've lived with men outside of marriage and the most consistent theme has been a sense of insecurity. I always felt a pending break-up. I was fully, emotionally invested however, my partner was not. I learned the hard way how this imbalance leads to the demise of the relationship. The experience whittled away at my spirit and emotional stability. Basic needs were not being met. We were not sharing the same spiritual vision or commitment and the inevitable break-up happened.

It is also interesting to note the huge body of work that exists on the pros and cons of living outside of marriage. There is compelling evidence in favor of marriage. Statistics show married individuals are much healthier, happier, content and personally successful. They have lower rates of mental illness and when they do, they tend to recover more quickly. I assume this is related to the emotional support system we create in a marriage.

Here's an excerpt from an artical I recently read:
Dr. Robert H. Coombs, professor of Biobehavioral Sciences at the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA), conducted a review of more than 130 published empirical studies measuring how marital status affects personal well-being. He concluded that scientific investigations, conducted from the 1930s to the present, “attest that married people live longer and generally are more emotionally and physically healthy than the unmarried.” Coombs specifically looked at the areas of alcoholism, suicide, morbidity and mortality, mental illness and self-reports of happiness.
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Some couples I know living outside of marriage embody the principles and spirit of marriage. They have not gone through the formality of getting married but their lives together reflect a depth of commitment akin to marriage. They share property, family, a commitment to nurturing the relationship and each other. I think such unmarried couples are the exception. For me, I want the formal, emotional, spiritual benefits of marriage. I just find myself involved with a wonderful man that thinks we can be one of those exceptional unmarried/married couples (hmmmm... I'm confused)

Lynn

So, in a nutshell...

You'd like marriage, because you want full commitment (I'd agree).

He fears marriage, because he fears nastiness in case it doesn't work out. Which probably underscores your feeling that he might have one foot out the door.

Lets brainstorm a moment. Are there any conditions that would ease your concerns and make you enthusiastic about not being married? Any conditions that would ease his concerns and make him enthusiastic about being married?

Kathi

Great questions Kathi!

I can't answer the question you pose for my partner but I can address the following:

"Are there any conditions that would ease your concerns and make you enthusiastic about not being married?"

1) Actively buying or creating a home together that we agree is equally ours. Co-creating OUR home. A domestic situation where neither of us are living in the other person's house.

2) Each of us listing the other as beneficiary on insurance and legal documents.

3) We create time each week just for us to enjoy each other's company. We're both very busy and it gets too easy to "not have enough time" to play and enjoy mutual interests.

4) He refers to me as his wife. I am not a _girlfriend_.

5) His family and medical professionals recognize me as a member of his family and therefore, grant me the same respect as a family member/wife would be given in medical situations.

These listed conditions come to mind, right of the top of my head. There may be other's however, I think I've listed the most important issues for me. I think the question you pose for him is very interesting. I can guess he would become enthusiastic about marriage if I became pregnant (ain't gonna happen) or he landed a job that included retirement health insurance for himself and a spouse. (See we're back to his belief that there needs to be a reason for getting married. <hmmm...>)

When I can find the right moment, I will ask him to consider the question you pose. I bet the question, alone, will be cause for pause and reflection. It'll be interesting to hear his response.

Thanks again

L

Kathi,

You asked me a question early on that I've been reflecting upon. From your original reply to me:

I'd like to better understand how you state that (emotional/spiritual aspect of marriage) to your BF...and how he reacts to your reasons as stated.

I state it from my perspective, in the effort to share who I am with him. He reacts with kindness and interest. I get a sense, however, that something is not connecting. Or, perhaps I've not been clear enough. I've let him know that my experience shows that living outside of marriage does not work -- it's pretty much a nail in the coffin for the relationship. He, on the other hand, has a brother that successfully lived outside of marriage. Please note that my boyfriends brother eventually MARRIED his (former) live-in girlfriend. This detail fact seems to go unnoticed by my boyfriend! To this day he still thinks of his brother and sister inlaw as living together outside of marriage (go figure...)

Once again, this morning my bf asked me to live with him. He said he wants to make me happy and have me in his life forever. I responded by letting him know that I would love to live with him and I'm willing to address his interest and concerns. I asked if he'd be willing to address mine? Up to this point, I've stated my concerns and needs and he's politely listened however, I've not heard him ADDRESS my concerns! I asked him if we could address each other's concerns in order to move toward that which we both want: to be together and (hopefully) live a long, happy life together.

When I observed his aversion to marriage, I asked him
if there were any concerns or issues he had about marriage, that, if addressed would make it less scarey? He said he did not know what the concerns may be. I responded by saying that I think we need to be able to identify and address concerns in order to move forward otherwise, we will not be able to acheive our goal of being together.

Sometimes I think men are not as complex as women. I think he just wants to be with me, make me happy and live together forever. It's simple to him but not to me.

Sorry to be so long-winded. I am really trying to sort things through and greatly appreciate your time and feedback.

Lynn

Hi, wow I went through this myself with my ex b/f and he was very hurt when we broke it off.

I tried to talk about emotions but I believe you need to be more practical in negotiating with yours.

He is a practical man with lots of doubts, BUT doubts are part of a commitment, it's healthy to sit down and talk about them from time to time, that's a healthy marriage not a bad one. Just the fact he is worried means he could do it.

Push the relocating issue-there is a practical problem, you are too far away-he must see that it's hard relocate for a live-in relationship. If he says he's different, way well I am being practical here! That seems to work.

In my case I got too hurt and withdrew,
but if I had to do it over I would be very bottom line and talk about how easy it is to be married when you two are so committed. If he says again there could be a horrible break up say well if we are special it will be just as bad, better that there is a marriage to be happy about.

He may be terrified of children-children can happen in a live-in too. What's he so afraid of there? Married couples don't automatically reproduce.

It's very tough though I know because so many people live together and men seem to like it much better living together than living apart.

Good Luck,
Nat

I just saw an interesting post from star*fish on the Emotional Need section of the board, thought I'd pass along...

I was just going to mention "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders".

Right now I think you have to enforce your boundaries...so if no marriage, no buying a house together, no living together...make sure he is doing his part coming down to see you. Actually make him to a little more than his fair share. Start making it his problem.

Tell him if he doesn't want to get married, why doesn't he move down by you? You are not going to uproot yourself if you are not married, but since it is no big deal to him, he should have no problem.

If you are not family you will not be treated as such in a medical situation. The medical community won't take your input and His family does not have to take your input if they don't want to.

If he loves you and is willing to commit to marriage then sounds like things would go pretty well. But as long as he is not willing to commit you are better off without him. He might need some time to stop and see what he would be missing if he didn't marry you. For sure, take some advice from somebody that has already been there - Most of the time it boils down to "why but the cow when you can get the milk for free". Don't back down on your boundaries. If he doesn't respect them now it won't get any better later. Hold on to your values and boundaries - that's what makes you who you are. Don't give yourself up - to anyone - commitment comes first!

oops! that was supposed to be "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free".

I have been dating my boyfriend since I was 23 and we've been together for 11 years, living together for 9. My man has the exact same reasoning. He believes marriage is only useful if you want to have children together (or maybe buy a house together, his name is on the mortgage now & he doesn't want to move and that's dandy for him).

For many years I reasoned with myself that everything else was great, so why would I leave him just because of marriage. I can tell you now that it was a bad decision for me.

As years go by you will get closer. People will treat, and think of the two of you as married. In all respects you will have a marriage... except for one thing. He never never said he wanted you to be his wife. That one thing grows into pain and resentment.

I wouldn't try to rationalize with him. It won't work. He wasn't born yesterday. He knows the "whys" and "why nots" of getting married already, even if he plays dumb about it.

My sincere advice to you is to say to him, "It's okay. But marriage is something I want in life. I'm going to move on. If something changes, look me up." Don't just say it, do it. You don't need to explain yourself any more than that. He knows! The more you explain, the more you undermine your conviction. Your need isn't up for negotiation, so don't talk yourself silly anymore trying to negotiate marriage, much less moving in together.

PLEASE, don't make the mistakes I have. If you feel this way now it will only grow in years to come no matter how much you fight it. Move on now so you'll never feel like you've let years and missed opportunities pass. Five years from now you could be with the man of your dreams that loved you so much he did want to marry you. :-)

NEVER COMPROMISE YOUR DREAMS!!! If you need some inspiration, read (or buy the book on CD like I did) Robin McGraw's book "Inside My Heart". Lol, she left Dr. Phil for that very reason before they got married. She didn't leave to get him to marry her, she left because she knew what she wanted and he didn't have the complete package. It's about knowing what you want and sticking to your needs. Why would you put his needs before yours? You're going to have to live your life. Make it good!!!! I wish I had this book 10 years ago.

Good luck!!!! Love yourself.