Thx Shattered05. You're absolutely right. I should say though, that none of us actually spoke with the women, we just noted among ourselves that they were there. The match.com guy is divorced. He knows WW and I are an inch from D, and has sincerely encouraged me to stick with the M. But he's also a bit of a stir-things-up kind of guy - hence the above. You're right, we were out of line.

Thx also to Mel and believer. I would conclude the same if I were you, but I didn't give you enough info. In fact WW does NOT have a drinking problem. Lately she does like to party more than usual. This week passed her big professional exam. She was out celebrating with colleagues. Will tell you in a sec how I know that. Anyway I've only seen her puking drunk twice in 15 years. She knows she is alcohol intolerant and normally takes it easy. 2 drinks max. I think tonight was extreme because of her exam results.

Anyway she surely has problems right now, but whatever it they are, a drinking problem isn't among them.

More info: Her cell was missing. Went out on the street looking for it, found the spot she'd lost her cookies and dropped the items out of her purse, but no cell phone. N.B. that's several houses from our house.

So I started calling her cell number. After a few tries, one of her colleages I'll call D.O. answered. Something doesn't fit here. D.O. said he and some other colleagues had been drinking with WW, then he drove her to our house in the suburbs. We're talking 25 miles! Then he drove back downtown. 50 miles roundtrip. Thankfully he didn't sound drunk.

D.O. said he dropped WW at our door, and WW left her cell in his car when she got out. Then how did WW lose her cookies and drop items our of her purse several houses away? Does not fit. It makes more sense she lost them puking while walking home from the train.

As it happens I was out with WW and D.O. and other colleagues of WWs last weekend. 1st time we'd been out together in awhile. That was my initial meeting w/ D.O. He had his hand on the bottom of another woman who works there. I think he has something going with that other colleague. He's single, she's also single, but has a BF in another city. I don't think he is an honorable guy. That and the contraceptive foam make for an ugly thought. Jumping to conclusions, I think he's making up a story to cover something up. But I'll get more info tomorrow from WW. I found this guy pretty revolting, and am disgusted at the idea he and WW are possibly starting a relationship.

This is way way beyond my experience. WW seems to be having some kind of serious midlife crisis. Acting a little unstable. What does it mean, what can I do to help her and get things back on track?

Just realized I'm only upset about the foam or the possible D.O. relationship. A few months ago I was constantly crying and ranting, now just upset. That must be a measure of how deeply we've sunk and how close we are to D, don't you think? If I don't get extremely upset about those extreme provocations, then I fear I really don't care that much any more, or can't be shocked any more.

This morning I thought we were right at the start of a new honest and open relationship. Lay it all out, start with radical honesty from here on out, start recovering, etc..Wow the foam isn't too honest.

What other thoughts? Thx as always!

WW came down in tears, repentent. Still moderately drunk. I was all plan A, loving and supportive, saying "don't worry we just need honesty to get started down the path to recovery". WW then said she will tell me everything about her A 1st thing tomorrow.

But wait there's more. After I held her a bit she put in a condition; only if I promise not to tell OMW. That's not really repentent is it. I've learned not to make promises to WW, and I did not.

Also she didn't mention anything about the foam. I'm not going to mention it, just to give her a chance to come out with it. She could really build some trust points if she were to do that; I don't want to take that opportunity away from her by telling her I know about the foam. I will keep telling her how important it is to be brutally honest right now even if it's news I may not be happy to hear.

So maybe we're not at the recovery stage yet. Based on the foam, maybe not even in Noncontact yet! Also, on her cell I found evidence of recent text message with OM. I don't see how I can stand another couple of weeks of this mess.

What does it mean if she can't confess about the foam, and can't tell me the details of the A unless I promise not to tell OMW.

I have to add here that I really really want our M to work out. I am willing to do whatever I need to do. Sometimes it's hard to know what to do. I want and need her in my life, as do the kids.

Breakthrough! (maybe). Yeeah!

Right after typing the entry above, I went to bed with steam coming out of my ears. Then decided to try again. Politely suggested she tell me all about her A. She did, between trips to the porcelein altar. Neither the story nor the setting was pretty, but at least we finally got some honesty going. As an additional plus, she was truly repentent. 1st time in many moons. The repentence is a big victory for the M. And it was all on her own, I didn't even tell her I needed that.

There's a possibility this could finally give us a place to start building a new M. It's been a long long time coming.

She didn't volunteer the foam or the D.O. story so I mentioned both. Will pursue today. She said she'd been so long without SF she wasn't sure she could control herself around guys, and wanted protection in case. That's pretty bad isn't it. At least it felt honest, and that's crucial.

This weekend needs to be my best-ever Plan A effort. Need to keep things going the right direction. Also need to keep the honesty going; don't want to let her slip back to her deceitful uncommunicative ways. Suggestions? Comments? Thanks.

Good job, wnh, I would only emphasize that Plan A does not stand for Plan appeasement. Appeasement has got you into this mess, I don't think it will get you out. I think it is important to NOT support bad behaviors, but to be firm and straightforward without lovebusting.

That doesn't mean rewarding her when she tells you "honestly" that she put foam in her purse in case she got laid. Honesty about bad behavior does not justify bad behavior. That is very bad news and shouldn't be greeted with a pat on the back and a "thank you being for being honest."

She needs to see some consequences for her actions for once. And that has been sadly lacking. That doesn't mean she should be lovebusted, but it does mean that she should be told that her actions are destroying her, destroying your marriage, destroying your respect for her. <----this should not be hidden from her in order to appease her.

She has sunk very low and this should be pointed out to her CLEARLY along with an expectation that it will stop and that she will change.

Got it Melody; Thx for the guidance.

weneedhelp

I was a WW.

IMHO you are being feed a SANTISIED version of events of the affair and her current actions, its pretty par for the course at this stage.

Your WW is still foggy by the sounds of it and recovery is not yet around the corner. There are a few weak but good signs, however be aware that her 'dealing' is NOT a good sign. It means shes telling you an awlful lot she knows you WANT to hear. NEVER NEVER make such agreements.

I think is likey she has been in recent contact if it ever truly stopped with one OM or another.

You should consider what Mel has said - good advise -..it's ok to try & create a 'safe' place for her to be honest with you..but expect a slow & very reluctant & numberless versions of the 'truth'.
But if you are going to do a Plan 'A' DONT talk divorce... when you don't proceed that will loose its impact, and when you are serious about it, she won't pay attention ...bit like crying wolf.

I do think it may be very helpful to go to a pro marriage MC rather than her IC. IC's have a very focused mission, her welfare. Their methods will differ based on the type of training they have had, their own beliefs about M AND your M may not be of may concern at all to her IC.

Thank you aussieswife. I understand.

We just talked another hour. She's tried to contact OM probably 6 or 7 times in the last 7 weeks since I exposed. He has not responded. She thinks he is mad at her and wants to feel like it's allright. Kind of like she wants to be forgiven by him or something. Once again - for the 4th time I think - she promised to tell me immediately if/when she or he attempts contact. Also that she won't attempt any further contact. We'll see.

I am considering further exposure to OMW, in order to really make OM hate WW. I already met with OMW and told her everything, but now I have a bit more info that OMW isn't aware of and would like to know. Not for revenge. Repeat Not Not for revenge. But for my own marriage. If OMW were then to confront OM with that info, it could drive OM further from WW. On the other hand WW prefers I don't do that, and I will take that into account. But I made no promises.

I told WW I would like to find a different counselor since the boundaries WW is now coming up with aren't likely to help our M. WW will consider. At least we will likely go to group M counseling at a church.

WW has been shopping for guys, hence the foam. She just got the foam 4 days ago, but has been shopping longer than that. Striking up conversations etc. WW said our starting relations again would help her contain her appetite.

Thx again; would find your further ideas very helpful!

OK, sounds good...what are some of those "consequences" for her actions...Mel? I think the advice is good, so how about a little more detail of what "consequnces" means.

Thanks

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WNH,
I don't post much so I'll keep it short. The discovery of contraceptive foam is a major indication that contact has been broken and planning for future encounters.
Do you really believe your WW is looking to have a sexual experience with any stud that she encounters? Such is not usually the case with a women. A man, perhaps, but not usally with a women( I could be living in the Ice age also).
A women's committment to sex is usually emotional, not necessacerily, physical.
IMHO, NC is not only in place, but never was!
You can read over over this site, WW lie, lie, lie, and then lie some more.
What have you done to absolutely determine that there is NC.
Have you been checking out every resource, or have you somehow, been unwittingly, TRUSTING what whe has told you.
A major mistake in MHO, as she has nowhere even come close to EARNING that trust.
BTW, boundaries are the defence of what you will allow other people to cross or not cross. They are not what you will DEMAND of another person. They are your own moral guidelines to live your own life. They are either there and in place, or not.
To me all these are very similar: ultimatums, coercions, demands, . . . and boundaries. I don't see that any of them have much place in a functioning .
Think again, your WW fails to do as DR. Harley explains,
defend against her own weaknesses.
Time to step up the stakes in your battle to save your M.
Use every resorce at your disposal, and then some.
I wiss you All Blessings in your struggle,
Jerry

He's a smart guy and can figure that out on his own. A good first start would be to CONFRONT her with how her actions effect him.

Did that. After confronting her, she has a pretty good understanding now of how her actions affect me. And said that somewhere nearby there's a respect line. She's disrespected me so much that we're awfully close to going over the brink now, and we need to be very careful if we are to have a chance of rebuilding. She understood.

I also asked her for all her passwords and all her phone records. She agreed. A couple of months ago she'd declined. I asked her why the change, she couldn't explain it. Just said "before it was an infringement of my privacy, now it's just different". Translation: "before I had a lot of secrets I didn't want you to see". "Now either I don't have any secrets", or possibly "Now I've learned how to hide them better".

Anyway it's better to have access than not. And she's at least willing to put up an appearance of openness.

With that success, I think I'll give her a rest until tomorrow. Don't want to press too hard and shut her down.

Tomorrow I'd like to ask her why she was so intent on attacking my character with friends & neighbors, and what she can do to repair the damage she's done.

Not sure what else.. suggestions? comments? Thank you.

WW has been shopping for guys, hence the foam. She just got the foam 4 days ago, but has been shopping longer than that. Striking up conversations etc. WW said our starting relations again would help her contain her appetite.

Wow...having sex with you might make her not want to have sex with other men?

Might I add that foam will NOT PREVENT STD'S???

she could be exposing you to something you do not want...we can prevent pregnancy...but we cannot prevent the transmission of std's.

this is scary to me as a health professional.

I would get the foam out of her purse...and leave it out on the coffee table...just sit it there and see if she says anything at all...I mean, last I heard...a vasectomy kinda keeps a woman from getting preggers right???

Conflict avoiding will not help anything.

And I am 36...I don't go out and get stinking drunk...hopefully when I pass my subspecialty boards (haven't gotten the news yet) I may go out for a margarita or something...but I can't remember last time I puked for the life of me.

I vote for she is in contact with OM.

And a ww does NOT have the leverage to negotiate if you will disclose all or not to OMW.

It is part of plan a to disclose and do so with force of atom bomb.

re-read part about plan a : carrot and stick.

Thanks Justpeachy. Sorry, I just realized I wasn't clear above. We've discussed the foam. And I'm not conflict avoiding.

Last night, before opening up to me, WW was concerned that I not talk with OMW. I told her no way, I definitely will talk with OMW. She opened up to me anyway, and she knows that what she told me, I may well decide to pass on to OMW. Of course OMW is already aware of much of the A, I only have a few additional details to offer to OMW. There would not be much additional exposure.

I will lay out the STD potential to WW, to give her pause.

wnh

Wow, a lot can happen in a short while.... just checked in to see how you were doing, and, well, wow!

Take everything your W says with a grain of salt. She's still pretty fogged, and you are probably getting a really watered down version of the "truth" as she chooses to "let you in on". Take care not to push too hard, though, or she may withdraw, or seek "comfort" with the OM, or at least try.

Melody (as usual) is right on the mark. Make sure you are able to verbalize to your W what your feelings are, regarding the A, and/or any of her current actions. It sounds like you are mastering the process of extracting information without LB's, which at this point is CRITICAL. Keep up the very good work!

If the fog is clearing some, this would be a good time to tell your W you "heard" about a really great marital counselor, and think a phone session with him would be a great idea. That being one of the Harley's, of course!!

They have a good reputation for slicing the fog away from the WS long enough to get them to listen to some powerfully positive suggestions, regarding evaluating their own wayward position. I think for you, this would be a very, very wise choice. Perhaps as part of that "interview" or session, you could be referred to a local counselor that is familiar with and a porponent of the MB philosophy.

Listen to your W carefully as she "opens" up to you, and continue filling her needs in loving and caring ways. Progress comes in mysterious ways, sometimes. Pay particular attention to her words, and make sure they "align" with other things she's told you. WS's can be very sketchy in reporting half-truths, but very convincing so that you think you've GOT it all. Not necessarily the case.

Hang in there,
SD

wnh, while you don't want to push her into defense mode, I would suggest that you address anything that needs to be addressed NOW while she is remorseful. She is still in shock from her behavior and has not successfully rationalized it yet. This is why she is so willing to work with you today. She is deeply mortified today. She won't be tomorrow.

I would also suspect that the reason she is so worried about you contacting the OMW is that they may still be in contact. Could it be that you would find out the OM was out with her last night, hence the foam?

Good points all Melody, those had occurred to me too. W/r/t the poss of contact; WW did tell me a lot of stuff in full knowledge I would likely discuss it with OMW; so if WW is still in contact it's a nice job of trickery.

Thx SD. Good to hear from you.

I just really don't know what to make of the foam thing. Right now I have absolutely no reason to trust a word she says. On the other hand WW seems genuinely repentent and eager to get our M on a better track. If she's deceiving me again it's a remarkable job of deception.

I'll assume she's lying but try to continue the discussion without LBs.

I think the most troubling thing here is that she was looking to get picked up and laid in a bar, wnh. That is a very dangerous mindset that puts your health, your marriage and your family at risk. Do you think its true that this was her intention or do you think she is lying to cover up some contact with the OM? Is she the kind of person that would behave like a bar ******?

Can you call the OMW and compare notes? Ask where he was last night?

Great idea!! I will call OMW soon to compare notes.

No she isn't that type of person normally. Recently though, she is. She admits her A has whetted her sexual appetite. And she's getting nothing from me.

What does it mean? Is this kind of change common in 45 yo women? Stupid q: could it be a midlife crisis or onset of menopause?