UVA I understand your points. And I can understand many might think that she had concensual sex. That may be the case. But on the other hand she may have been subject to nonconcensual sex. For her sake that is really troubling.

If her colleague is OM2, it could take months for WW to be able to open up to me. And she may be well-along in her pregnancy with OM2 by then since the foam was unopened and unused. What a thought!

More info is needed, either for WW to unveil OM2, or if that's not it, for her to figure out a bit more about what really happened. I believe WW will have more info tomorrow after talking further with her colleague. Or, she may come home from IC today with a few more things to add.

Well, I'm going to re-iterate my earlier remark. Do not let your wife attempt to regain power here and make things all out to be your fault.

Make it clear that while you take responsibility for things not being as good as they could have been, it's never been YOUR choice in any of this, and if she's truly remorseful and wants to make her life better, she's got to step up and start the work to do so...and let her know that you'll be there with her every step of the way, doing your part right beside her...because THAT is what a marriage is about.

As far as whether or not what happened this weekend was rape or not...as I said, she's NOT going to tell you the truth at this point if it wasn't, nor will she be willing to admit to anyone that she had allowed herself to get into this situation in the first place. You can bet that this guy DID do something with her...consenually or not becomes irrelevant unless SHE chooses to do something about that. BUT...you CAN draw the boundary(don't you just love that word) that she should have NOTHING to do with him again, regardless. She 'doesn't know' if he did anything or not...but the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming...so regardless of whether she was willing or not...she HAS to end ANY kind of contact with this guy going forward.

As far as the IC...start trying to talk with your wife about the difference in boundaries as I've talked about them...see if she can begin to grasp those in these few moments when remorse seems to have set in somewhat. Take advantage of it...and if she comes home full of doo-doo...CHALLENGE her like I'd suggested you challenge her IC and see how it works...not attacking, but calm, logical, and responding with either evidence or learned knowledge, not just with gut responses.

Good luck friend...I do hope that all of this signifies the beginning of a new future for you and your wife.

Happy Halloween!

Thanks Owl. Today, at least, W is NOT of a mind to say it's all my fault. She came back from IC seemingly unharmed; no 'boundary' nonnegotiable demands.

She said IC thinks we need to continue seeing him; the R is at a tricky point and he thinks he can be very helpful. I didn't pursue it; didn't seem like the right time.

Yes I think she and her colleage fooled around. She's not ready to come out with it yet, but she seems to be hinting that she thinks (i) something happened, (ii) it wasn't rape, and (iii) it wasn't intercourse. So that seems to leave some kind of concensual fooling around that would entail her losing her panties. (?) I suppose he kept them as a souvenir. WW says she is not at all attracted to her colleague, it must have just been an alcohol-induced loss of control. But then how does one explain the fact that she bought the vaginal foam Tuesday and got it on with him 3 days later?

WW says her medical exam, although not 100% error-free, was consistent with no intercourse and no STD manifesting itself yet. She is to go back in six months for a retest.

She and IC agreed the alcohol combined with no SF from me makes her very vulnerable. Here's the good part; WW agreed with IC that she should therefore abstain from alcohol in an effort to prevent recurrences. To me, the recent events are more than unpleasant but the intention to prevent recurrences is appealing.

We seem to be communicating fairly well. Despite really sharp provocations we're still tracking and talking. I asked her why we aren't quite as intimate as during her hangover/remorse. WW responded she still feels intimate with me; just a bit worn out by questions. And gave me a very rare hug. Hard to come by those are.

My hope is that last Friday was rock bottom. But we'll see what tomorrow brings.

wnh...

you're saying something that cause me great concern:



My XW had PA's with two men she Found "not even remotely attractive"...but even more disturbing was the alcohol induced part....that defense is not admissable in court and should not even be an option for her with you. My friend you have acknowledged your wife has serious issues and you're trying your best but you need to protect yourself in more than a physical way. I can not imagine the emtional toll it takes on you. She needs to address these issues with you immediately or you may need to consider whether or not the anticipated unpleasantness will be worth it...

Change must take place but it must be a two way street..or as one of my buddies put so eloquently....

"there's only so much $h1t a fly can eat"....

and unless she changes stuff that is all she is feeding you....crap....

Well, Send, surprisingly the emotional toll isn't so large anymore; I assume it's because we're at a turning point. I can't eat much more of it, and if she dishes up more the end is near. This is the fork in the road.

Tonight I asked where WW stands w/r/t her search for guys; WW said she was wrong to have done that and would not do it anymore. Not quite so vehemently as I would have liked, but that's my W. She's not the one to say 'heck yeah I was so far wrong you can't even see that far'. If she says 'well I may have been a centimeter out of line', well that's huge statement from her. You could say 'that sucks', and you'd be right. It's a big character flaw she has, but also 90% of humanity seems to have that same character flaw. Is it called Pride?

So where are we? She says she's sorry, it was a mistake and she won't do it anymore. And that she wants to get our M back on track. You shouldn't think she had to say that; WW is perfectly capable of saying otherwise. Sincere or not, at least that's the kind of talk you want.

3 big things happened this weekend. First, it became clear she'd been hunting for guys, second she seems to have had some sort of one-night stand, and third she opened up and came clean about her A, and had real remorse. Again you shouldn't think she had to do that; she's perfectly capable of doing otherwise.

Without that last bit I could be thinking about visiting an attorney, even though more than anything I want to keep our M together. That bit is what's keeping me in the game. For now. Now the question is: what are her subsequent actions? For me, there won't be a Plan B, there won't be a further Plan A, there's just a slow recovery or something I don't want or even want to think of. It's mostly in her hands.

Of course she still sees herself as a victim: when I ask her questions about her A or her behavior last weekend she sometimes says things like "I don't think you understand how unhappy I've been for so many years in our M".

I do understand. For a period in our M I wasn't in the fight to defend the M, and I can understand that she was unhappy. Me too, but she feels it more strongly than I.

So yes she was a victim before the A. But more recently she is not the victim of the A. We would be better served if she could say 'those unhappy times over the years left the door open, but I walked through the door'...taking ownership of her A and being remorseful for it, as I've taken ownership and am remorseful for the wrongs I've done her over the years.

Do you tell her this, wnh?

Yes Mel

Today WW denies she was searching for guys - in contrast to what she said Saturday - and she doesn't want to talk. I don't like where this could be going..

Did she go back to work today? Did she see OM#2?

Again, calmly do not let her get away with it. Tell her that she either lied to you on Saturday, or she's lying to you now. And on Saturday she didn't have time to think to prepare a lie...so that makes what she said on Saturday the truth, and today's mis-direction a lie.

Something to remember (and even to tell her)...when you're dealing with people in crisis (like she was on Saturday) you ALWAYS take the first story that they give you during the intervention mode (your assisting her on Saturday) as the most likely truth. It's VERY common for the story to change post-intervention...it's denial. She doesn't want to admit (face) the truth, so now she's telling you it's not the truth. As I said above, the reason you take that 'intervention' story as the most-likely truth is that she didn't have time to prepare a story...so she either told the truth or a closer version to it than she will now. NOW she's going to want to re-paint the picture in a better light for herself...that's a NORMAL response.

But that doesn't mean that you have to accept that from her...what you need to do is to tell her that you know that what she told you on Saturday was the closest to the truth...and that's all backed up by the rest of the evidence that you have. If she HADN'T been looking for other guys, she wouldn't have had the can of foam in her bag...she wouldn't have been out drinking and looking for trouble, etc...

Gently tell her that in order for your marriage to recover (which is what she said she wants), she has to start being COMPLETELY honest with you in all things...regardless of whether or not she feels comfortable with it. Let her know that it's the LIES that hurt you more than anything else...the fact that she could and did decieve you...that's the greatest source of pain for most of us who have been a BS. Tell her that...and tell her that THIS is the main area she needs to work on up front to fix in the relationship...open, honest communication. NO MORE LIES.

I'm not surprised at all by this development.

Now...again, you need to balance out being FIRM with being CALM. Don't accept a lie...but don't ATTACK her about it. If she starts to escalate her anger when talking to you... you reverse that. The louder and angrier she gets, the quieter you talk. Take it down to just above a whisper...not meek, just not forceful. Make her have to LISTEN for what you're saying. Take long pauses to calm yourself before responding to anything she says...THINK about it, and think about your response. Then talk calmly and quietly.

This tactic often forces the confrontational person to change how they interact with the other person...and it takes away THEIR power by removing the element that they use the most...their anger. It's no longer an effective weapon against you in this type of conversation.

Hang in there friend...this is NOT the end.

wnh, I can't believe how your situation has unfoled over the last few days. This stuff sucks doesn't it.

Hopefully you WW has hit bottom and things will start to improve, but it will take lots of time so be patient.

good luck

wnh

its not unusual for a just FWW to be like that. Up & down, its your fault, no it isn't etc etc over & over.
Can't tell you how long it will go on for, I had professional help and it lasted about 5 or 6 visits before my therapist stamped down hard. For me that worked, for others I guess they'd get treated differently.
Whatever works.
Eventually she will either accept it was her fault & decision to cheat or she won't. And theres nothing you can do other than not accept excuses. There may be reasons, perhaps even reasons some would say are understandable...BUT THERE ARE NO EXCUSES.
Do you see the difference?

When she makes comments like 'you dont know how unhappy I was' you could answer and say "No I didn't, we didn't communicate any of that to each other back then, but we can and should now. I understand what you will tell me will be hard to hear but I need to hear it" or something like that.
It gives her an opening to tell you about the affairs and ONS etc and how unhappy she was.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear you say much the same.
JUST listen, make comments after if you must - best would be to think & process first though - and if you get angry, excuse yourself ask if you may continue this later as its just too much for any more right now and go for a walk or hit a punching bag, come vent here whatever.

It baby steps for her right now, still the basics for her to do, NC from ANY OM regardless, telling you the truth no matter how hard - remember that she is fearful that if she tells you she was looking for the ONS you will walk or tell her to go - just to start off with.
You may need to quietly reassure her that as long as she is honest with you from now on, hurtful as it may be, if she tells the truth then you WILL work on the M with her.
Frankly she is scared and quite rightly so that you have had enough. SHe fears Friday night has pushed you over the edge & wont tell you much of anything unless cornered like a rat in a hole, though the likely truth is pretty clear to those of us who went through this sort of thing on one side or the other.

Keep at it wnh.

AW

Thx Owl, HTW and aussieswife. I have been successfully fighting the demon on my shoulder that tells me to call an attorney. I've learned a lot about anger mangement in the last six months. Will calm down and give it some time.

I will adopt the quietly reassuring tone and message you suggest AW.

Next steps for me: (i) make it clear that her story has changed, and (ii) urgently request a talk with her tonight to discuss - as our new humility, honesty and openness is the only way to save the M. I assume she will agree, and at tonight's talk I will make the points you've all made above.

Re Friday night's events, the cat is most definitely out of the bag. She feels badly about herself, and wants to feel better. I do not want to attack her, but neither do I want to let her off the hook. I'm sure I can eventually forgive, but first I need to understand and need her to ask for forgiveness. And - for the M - we also need for her to forgive me for the wrongs I've done to her. She doesn't seem inclined to do that.

If she won't continue being honest and open, it's a step towards the end of the road for us. I will be sure to let her know that.

I sent her that message, and just got this email back from her: "Yes, I would like to talk tonight. I had a talk with <my colleague> and need to tell you about it. I am sorry I am so messed up. It is bad enough that I am f---ing up my life. It is worse that I am doing it to you and the boys too."

So tonight I think she will talk about events related to her drunken Friday night. And the missing panties. Can't say I'm eager to hear the details, but I am eager for her continued (I HOPE!) willingness to work, honesty and openness.

Tonight will be a time for Christian compassion. Harsh judgements won't answer. Ever. But particularly not tonight.

I don't feel harshly towards her. I care deeply about her, she's the most important thing in the world to me. I feel like I'm charged with helping and caring for an injured creature. One who is injured badly enough that she's apt to bite the hand that cares for her. I know that could sound paternalistic, but aren't we all our brothers' keepers?

What can I say to care for and love her and build our M?

I think you're right on the money WNH. It's a balance of being able to listen and NOT judge or take personally all of this coming at you, along with clearly, calmly, and as kindly as possible helping to define the changes that both of you need to make in order to repair your marriage.

I had to do exactly this in the first weeks of our recovery. I learned to sit and listen to what she was feeling/dealing with, without blowing up, getting angry, or otherwise making her feel like she couldn't communicate with me. She had to learn all over again that she COULD trust me enough to talk with me...even though I'd never done anything to make her think that she couldn't. It was that she had made such a huge mistake that she had to realize that I loved her and that she could be honest with me without fear of explosion.

But...it had to be balanced with some good discussion on how we fix the problems. We did a LOT of good talks like this when we first started to recover...in fact, most of our work along these lines was done between the two of us: our first MC wasn't able to provide what we needed to start down this path. Our second MC was a god send however...he did a GREAT job of providing some good guidance for us.

The trick is to balance these...and to learn to listen without blowing up, no matter how much it hurts you to hear. Don't be afraid to tell your wife how you feel...but do so with HER feelings in mind. The intent at this point is to begin to rebuild the damaged communications paths between the two of you...and once she gets through these initial rough times, hopefully she'll reach a point where she'll be able to help you heal in the same kind of fashion.

LOL...I have to laugh at the "paternalistic attitude" comment. The one thing my wife insisted to ALL the counselors was that I was trying to be her father...and that is NOT what I wanted. But, since I was the only one with a plan, and the only one taking active action to fix the situation, that's how she took it.

Thanks for the words Owl. I'm taking them to heart.

When she gave me the details of her A, I think I took it reasonably well. No anger/hostility/LBs etc, just 'we can work it out it will be okay' etc. I hope that laid the groundwork for her to know she is safe talking to me. She still has a tendency to retreat into belligerence or sullen silence; I'm trying to encourage her to remain engaged and interactive.

- -

But then she kind of likes the paternalistic attitude too. Thinks it's 'kind of endearing' sometimes. Go figure.

EXACTLY! Many times I've asked if she would like to to take a leadership role in the conversation. She is more comfortable reacting to my lead, very often negatively or belligerently. Since she won't lead I'm stuck with it. And therefore end up being perceived as manipulative and paternalistic.. AARGH!

Good talk last night. Here's the story. Note WW is relying on info from her colleague, and I'm relying on info from WW. I believe WW told it straight; she can be pretty transparent when she's lying.

As colleague was giving her a ride home she started masturbating in the car. Kind of a Girls Gone Wild I guess. She's not sure if she removed her jeans and panties or not (too embarrassed to ask her colleague for too many details). She thinks she did not remove her shirt or bra; because it would have been too difficult to get the bra back on in her drunken state. It sounds like he was put off a bit by her exhibition; WW thinks she was upset that he didn't respond. He didn't touch her, and they didn't have sex. She is humiliated that she could have done that to herself and her colleague, and both are embarrassed that they have to live with it. They agreed neither would ever speak of it again with each other or with others.

Although it could be a fabrication, as I said I believe that story. There's still a mystery. Colleague did not know that WW had lost her panties; he will look in his car. So it's not clear where or how she lost them. Our local (female) police officer hypothesized that sometimes very drunk women leave panties in the bar bathroom since it's too much trouble to put them back on.

Plainly WW has problems; she is determined to understand why she acted that way, and has scheduled visits to IC to work through it. I may accompany. She also decided that her immediate 1st step is to stop going to bars unless I'm there as a chaperone. Also she and I will be going to group MC for awhile to try to figure it out.

The experience has been scary and confusing for her, and possibly cathartic for the marriage, as a bottoming-out experience. Although there's a lot of bad news here, the good news is her willingness to work on the M, and our humility, openness and honesty. And that's really really good news for us. We feel we are drawing closer to each other now. Although we are not back in the same bedroom yet, we hope to get to that point soon. We are reaching out to each other and plan to work together to build a new better M.

wnh, funny how the worst of times can bring people closer together. This may be the turning point in your recovery so don't let up. I keep praying for you and your family.

If you can recover this M, this expericne may make it better than it ever was. Keep that in mind when things get tough.

Please...tell you WW, no more suprises. Your story keeps getting stranger by the hour.

I think it is time to ramp up your Plan A. This should show you WW that you are truly committed to recovering the M. You are doing fantastic given the circumstances.