Yes, "feedback" might be a good idea. And perhaps some more STD testing. It appears that she is on the hunt for available men and is actively pursuing them. This is much more serious than a one-time affair, it is a lifestyle choice. You do understand this, right?

I would also point out that marriage counseling is useless when one partner is in an affair and/or actively deceiving the MC and the spouse.

wnh, I would give some strong consideration to going into Plan B. When the WS is this dangerously destructive and flagrant, that is really the only option. Your W is not doing this out of unmet needs in the marriage, so meeting her needs will not solve the problem.

Dr. Harley:

"In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating."

entire article: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Good response Mel,
There comes a time, as Dr Harley says, when it is no longer a feasible plan, when WW/WH is brutaly unresponsive.
J

WNH

I've been following your sitch, and it continues to amaze me. Your WW has really become erratic and bizarre in her behavior. I almost wonder if she doesn't have some kind of a medical condition that is prompting all of this, or if it's just some weird abberation of character brought on by the first indescretion.

With utmost respect for Melody and her suggestion that you go to Plan B, let me run something by you as a "last resort" before you do.

While continuing to do and say all of the Plan A philosophy, put on an air of independence and leave the impression on your WW that you may be "up to something". Stop being good old reliable WNH. Start staying "late" after work, varied times. You can actually work late if you choose, but stop by a friends house and have a beer, or do some Christmas shopping, whatever. Start dressing up a notch. If you don't normally wear a tie or jacket to work....start. Look your best and smell your finest before you go to work. Every day. Always have a smile on your face, and be cheerful. Give the appearance of being "distracted" by "other thoughts on your mind when WW speaks to you. "Ummmm.... what hun?" "I didn't catch that!"

In other words, make her wonder what the heck you have become involved in. Make your answers truthful, yet vague, when she questions your being late, or dressed up. Buy some new cologne and gift wrap it for yourself. Leave the wrapper in the bathroom when you "open" it.

This is a ploy others have used to make your WW wonder if you have "settled" for her erratic behavior, and are in the process of moving on, or worse, have a suitor in the wings.

Now of course this is a deception by design, and some would disagree with these tactics, but hey, drastic times call for drastic measures. I would work this tactic right though the holiday, being pleasant and throughtful as you can towards your WW, but ever so....... distant, as well.

Then, if she has shown no signs of noticing, and beginning to question you a bit, or chasing you a bit, and the erratic behavior continues, then you go to work on an intense Plan B. Asking her to leave your home and go "sow her wild oats" , but not on your watch and not out of your marital home.

Just a thought... always thinking of you and wishing you the best!

SD

SD,

U sly guy!?!?!?! RB in style?!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I like that plan. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Thanks all for the input. Will consider.

4 days ago before leaving for work she left her cell phone and contraceptive foam for me, with a note saying 'the phone is too much trouble and I don't need the foam anymore'.

I asked her last night what those mean. She says the (work) cell phone causes problems and she plans to give it up and switch to our own cell phones where I can monitor the usage via the monthly bill. That's good I think. Re the foam, she said that now that we are occasionally having sex again she can control her urges, and has no further fears of an out-of-control sexual connection outside the M.

I think those are both good. But they could be smokescreens. Maybe she plans to switch to her work landline - where I can't monitor - and maybe she plans to use condoms e.g. I just really don't trust her, even when she is sending the right signals.

As always I care very much for her. I want her to be a happy content self-satisfied self-realized woman. Who wants to be with me for a life parther. The last part is only partially in my control. I can try to be attractive, appealing, inviting, loving etc but the decision is hers. For my part I've made that decision and I stick with it. I want to spend my life married to her. Come he!! or high water, even if we have a hard year like 2005 has been. Inside she is still a wonderful beautiful person and I love her.

We are getting along fairly well, and the hatred she had for me seems to have disappeared. OTOH the recent A#2 (that she hasn't yet admitted to) is pretty bad news.

I'm also confused by the inconsistency between how she acts when I'm around and how she acts when I'm not around. At least before, with A#1 - her really bad attitude towards me was consistent with the A she was having.

I may eat these words; but I think WW is wanting to stop her wayward behavior. It seems pretty clear she has emotionally reattached to me, and she's saying she is 100% committed to me and the M. I know she may be blowing smoke, but I believe her.

But I have it in mind that I should get her to face up to her A#2. My thought is to gather evidence of A#2 and present it to her. I would like her to admit it so that we can get rid of this secret between us, and to reinforce the cost to our M of that kind of behavior.

There is another possible path; to just let it go, and act like it was an innocent friendship (her story) rather than A#2.

If she really has changed her view and become pro-M and anti-A, confronting her with evidence may not be the smartest thing to do right now.

Looking for advice on which path to take. Thanks for your generous and very useful help in the past. Can I come to the well once more?

What about the condoms you found?

What about the seriously inconsistent stories surrounding those 2AM calls? (have you tried calling those numbers back, or paying for a reverse look up on them to see who they belong to?)

What about the fact that you're STILL finding out about men in her life that you knew NOTHING about???

These are all serious warning signs. Personally I think you need to make it clear to her that one thing above all has to start RIGHT NOW for the two of you to continue in ANY fashion.....NO MORE LYING!!!!!

Let her know that ANY lie she tells you at this point is a LB'er big time. Honestly, I'm of the opinion that you need to start to seriously let her know that if she keeps up her stupidity she's going to lose you completely...she has GOT to know that there IS a limit to what you'll tolerate from her, and she's getting darn close.

Make it clear to her what you consider a lie to be...ANY DECEPTION, ANY MISDIRECTION, ANY DOUBLE MEANING...and make her understand clearly what your acceptable boundaries are for your marriage. What she SHOULD and SHOULD NOT say/do/be with other people outside of your marriage. Let her know that you'll live by these same standards. And make sure she clearly understands what the consequences of her actions will be...define them up front and in stone.

She still sounds like a teenager to me. She needs to start growing up and seeing consequences for her bad behavior.

Sorry if I seem harsh, but it's hard to imagine myself in your shoes.

I am not clear on why you would see those as promising signs. You are admiring the deck chair arrangement on the Titanic as it goes down. You should be running for the lifeboats but you stand on the deck admiring the nice deck chairs wondering if you should mention that the ship is sinking.[perhaps I should "give her some feedback?"] Are you the president of the Conflict Avoiders Club? Honestly, I cannot tell who is more fogged out here, you or her.

There is nothing promising here, wnh, regardless of how "nice" she is to you. She is catting around trolling for men and this is dangerous and destructive behavior. Here is what you have just told us in the past few days and yet you come here today and tell us things look "promising":


* More importantly: I fear she has a new boyfriend.

* I found a new pack of condoms hidden (will mention those to her soon). And other things. I fear she has a new boyfriend.

* She got home about 2AM, then I'm sure she made some calls before coming to bed. I checked her cell phone and they were to a number I do not recognize. I'm very uncomfortable; I think the calls may signal a new A, or perhaps meeting a new guy.

* Another concern of mine was that there had been several calls over a 6-week span to another # I do not know. She said it was a friend at the bike shop, and that she and he had talked bikes quite a bit and had gone riding once.

* Counting the two above my way, you get the one A, plus the one-night sexual connection of some sort, plus the second 6-week EA or PA#2 with another guy, plus the incident of her likely giving out her cell number for the 2AM calls.

wnh, she is actively lying to you while behaving like an alley cat in heat. She has some serious problems here that require much stronger action than "giving her some feedback."

Just had initial consultation with D attorney.

Was this already in the works, or has something happened since your earlier post?

SD

We had an email exchange today which had a strongly negative impact on my attitude towards WW.

Since Sep I'd been thinking I might want to consult an attorney. Just decided today to do that.

Owl:

With all due respect brother..........I probably would not have used the words "warning signs" in your post. Saying "Warning signs" in this case would be analogous to someone having fallen asleep during Hurricane Katrina and after having woken up during the storm seeing their couch floating down the street saying, "Oh $hytt...I better close the windows up stairs, it is raining hard".

I know you meant well, but I couldn't resist. I am a weak man. I admit it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WNH: I am not making light of your sad situation, but some "tough" love and someone shaking you down and slapping you upside the head is warranted here. To do otherwise would border on criminal in my book.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WNH

Lemonman might have hit the nail on the head. In my own situation, I call them "come to Jesus" meetings with my W.

Without knowing what transpired, I can't give you specific advice, but it's time for you to have a "sit down" with your wife and spell out all you know, all you fear, all that is hurtful to you, AND, all of your love for your W including your willingness (up till this point, at least) to forgive and do the HARD WORK to reconcile and heal the marriage................all with a God given case of complete composure, and totally without LoveBusters.

You need to know where she stands, and you need to let her know where you stand.

It's time, my friend.

Best wishes,
SD

Lemon-

Hey...I have a gift for understatement...what can I say? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

No offense taken...truthfully I wanted to word it stronger but was having a rare moment of not finding the appropriate wording. I agree with everything you say...just knew that our friend was going to catch some flak already.

WNH-

So what's happened now to change your attitude friend? Personally, I think you need to give her that wake up call, but I'm curious what's prompted you to start taking these measures?

Change is due to the realization that this is a second A in a row. Nothing accidental about it. She wasn't away at a convention and met an old premarriage acquaintance - which is what started A#1. Nor was she drunk, which led to her one night stand with her colleague a month ago. Nor was she ignorant of the effects an A could have on our M - her 1st A should have made that completely clear. She bought both foam and condoms for this OM#2 - not for OM#1 since he's been out of the picture quite awhile (I think). Completely aware and premeditated; a well-informed decision. That aspect has really hit me hard.

I'll call OM#2 'Bikeguy' since he worked in a bike shop.

WW met and saw OM#2 Bikeguy secretly for something like 6 weeks, and would never have admitted had I not asked her about a number on her cell phone log. She says it wasn't an A, and that it's over now since he moved to another city. But the foam and condoms, and the fact she kept it secret say otherwise. I can't believe anything she says.

I'm working towards getting a bit more evidence to show to WW; then plan to sit down with her to discuss. I think it will be pretty clear to her that I know this was A#2.

She says it was just a friendship. But I think a secret friendship with a person of the opposite sex lasting for 6 weeks, during which she bought contraceptive foam and condoms, would meet most people's definition of an A. Yes? Indisputably at least an emotional A, but probably anyone here would be convinced it was physical, or at least that WW intended it to be physical.

Just for icing on the cake here's another lie.
The old false version: Previously she'd told me that she was biking and saw a stranger who had fallen, and stopped to help him. By chance some of our friends came by, and - according to WW at the time - she freaked and ran into the woods to hide. But WW thought she may have been spotted, so she told me of that event. Why freaked? At that time she said she was afraid that I would wrongly assume he was a boyfriend - so she had tried to hide from our friends.

The new true version: She now admits he wasn't a stranger she'd stopped to help; instead she was riding with Bikeguy and he fell.

WW says not to worry, they're just friends. Yah sure. It's clear this is A#2, and that it was premeditated with her full knowledge of what she was doing.

I'd been thinking it was my calling from God to stay with her and help her. Even my duty to die on this hill if necessary. But now I'm wondering if the best way to help her is to D her.

Realize that the only grounds for D given in the Bible is adultery.

I'm not saying that you SHOULD D...what I'm saying is that God must have identified this clearly in the Bible for a reason.

I can completely understand why you'd feel the way you do. I'm curious tho...what further information do you feel you need before you confront her? You have enough information now, you've got her proven track record of lies and...ummm....bad behaviours.

Personally, if you're at this point now, then get your ducks in order and do what you feel you need to do.

I am an advocate of letting people suffer the consequences for their own bad actions. Often it's the only way that they can TRULY learn the lessons from them. This pertains to WS's too...I think that taking care of yourself by 'cutting your losses' isn't always a bad thing. Especially in a case where the WS does not seem to be truly repentant or willing to change their behaviours.

If there IS a situation where you would be willing to move forward with her as your wife, then let her know clearly and concisely what that situation would be. And then do what you've got to do to take care of yourself.

Probably not very MB advice, but still something to consider.

I could use some advice. This may be overanalyzing, but still I could use your thoughts.

Please for now don't think about our two boys (12 & 10 yo) or about myself. The question is - purely from the WWs perspective - under what circumstances is D good for WW, and under what circumstances is D not beneficial for WW ?

I'm not talking about preference. Just talking about what's long-run beneficial to a WW. Ten years from now, will she be better-off for (A) having gone through the D? Or would she be better off (B) if we had remained married.

I know the boys count more than either of us. I'm thinking a lot of their interests. And mine. But for now, just this one time, this Q has to do only with what's beneficial to WW. I know it's not an easy Q. But any insights at all would be helpful.

What kind of circumstances does choice (A) turn out better than (B) for a WW?

Weneed, I seriously think you need to confront your WW with the evidence and be very strong about your boundaries. It is not about to D or not to D at this point, it is about protecting yourself and your kids. Think about plan B before you think about plan D. It is not your job to live the life of a martyr so your WW can have A after A.

Thanks faithful.

I'd like to make a rational choice, not driven too much by self-interest, and not driven by emotion. I'm a big boy and (obviously) can swallow some emotional turmoil. I suppose God asks us all to do that.

It's not about me. I need to remember that. I wasn't put here on Earth just to take care of myself. It would be a mean and nasty world if everyone looked out only for himself. It's about what I am called on to do for my WW and kids, and the rest of the world. Okay partly about me, but not really.

I think I know what I'm called on to do for our boys. I don't know what I'm called on to do for WW. Grateful for your thoughts.