That is awesome WNH. I have watched you struggle and you have done such a fine job of it. BTW, I have blocked some posters and it is empowering!

Thanks Faithful. It's a real challenge to keep my attitude up with the recent discoveries of OM#2 and the secret cell phone. Both of these came to light long after WW promised to be honest and open.

You can imagine it's hard to build trust and meet her ENs with earthquakes like those having occurred so recently. I'd give myself a C grade I guess. But with each day the bad in the past grows a bit more distant, so maybe I'll be able to pull myself up to a B.

I really want and need to be a high-performing husband and father.

My fear of course is that I may not be able to show WW enough love for her to want to be faithful to our M. Or that despite anything I do, she still may not want to be faithful. But that part is out of my control.

My other fear is more secrets coming to light. I've tried every way I can to get WW to understand it's 100 times better if she divulges than if I discover some secret in the past. She may have good intentions, but I really don't think she has much capacity for divulging her past secrets. So - if there are any left - I'll probably discover them myself, which will again rock our M back on its heels.

Any thoughts on how to get WW to work her hardest at thinking of and revealing other secrets or bad events from the horrible year of 2005?

Have you talked with her about this exact same thing?

Have you pursued MC based on all of the issues that your M is dealing with?

I understand that she's willing to move back to the master bedroom...that's great. And it IS very possibly that she's slowly warming back up to you again.

But at some point, you're still going to have to deal with the issues here...the ones that led to her horrible behavior, as well as the ones created by that same behavior. And she's going to have to realize that as part of the reconciliation and rebuilding, this is going to HAVE TO happen.

Hopefully you'll soon reach a point where you both can talk about things...I was lucky in my situation...from the day she DIDN'T get on the plane, we agreed to be 'brutally honest' with each other for a change. After that, we toned it down a bit, but kept the open honesty going forward.

Thanks Owl. We've been brutally honest for awhile now. I think WW is getting a bit tired of that and it's time for the softer touch again. Don't want to LB her unintentionally.

We're seeing two different MCs. In the last week I've told her of my fears twice (in counseling). I think she understands, but I also don't thinks he has much capacity for revealing more of her behaviors. I'd be surprised if she were to volunteer anything. And I fully expect to stumble across something else, in the upcoming weeks, that she could easily have revealed. Costing us weeks of recovery, or if it's serious enough, possibly our M.

That may sound a bit negative, but I think it's realistic for our personalities and situation.

If we can see a train wreck coming it makes sense to get out of the way. But I don't know how to do that and avoid the likely difficulties coming up in the next weeks. Seems like we're doomed to some unnecessary pain..

I have an out-of-town trip coming up. 2 nights away. Can't be helped; it's for a job interview. WW also wants me to go. I'm currently unemployed so it's pretty important.

Tonight I want to talk with WW about this. It will be the first nights away since June when WW told me about A#1. I think we can handle this trip without problems - else I wouldn't have agreed to the trip - but I'm worried about how the discussion will go tonight.

Following previous advice for recovery, I should stay on point and talk about our hearts and feelings rather than getting bogged down in historical facts and details about her affairs. That will be my goal; hope I can do it successfully.

Somehow I'll want to communicate to her my desire; that she will be at home with the kids and available by phone both nights. From my perspective it makes sense logically, but relationships are not all about logic are they? I think she will understand and agree, but there is the chance she will take offense about not being trusted, and if that were to happen the conversation could go into the ditch.

Although we've been getting along well, I don't trust her just yet. She still doesn't confide in me, or bring up anything I don't already know about her As. She would rather sweep it under the rug. That's not really confidence-inspiring.

Tricky territory, there are landmines here. Wish us luck.

Good luck, wnh, but it doesn't need to be tricky. You have every right to not trust her; she is untrustworthy. Only an insane person would trust an untrustworthy person. And you should not pretend like she is trustworthy, that helps no one, especially her. Trust must be earned, it is not an entitlement. There is no welfare program for trust. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If she plays the oft-dealt "YOUDON'TTRUSTME!!!!" card, always delivered with self righteous indignation, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> simply play the "OFCOURSEIDON'T, DEAR, YOUAREUNTRUSTWORTHY" card. Say it sweetly, but firmly and she will quit playing that little game pretty quick.

Good luck!

Or you could say it like I did, but somehow I don't think that is your style; you Canadians have politeness issues: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mel's DH: YOU DON'T TRUST ME!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Mel: NO [censored], SHERLOCK! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

That was the end of that discussion!

Thx Mel. That's just about what I was thinking of saying. The Canadian version that is...and I"m not even a Canadian, just a wannabe! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ROFL...my response to my wife's "You don't trust me!" Was a simple "Ya think?!?!". This was during our first MC session AFTER she'd made her decision to work on our marriage. Luckily, our MC at that point had been my IC...and was an AWESOME help to both of us in re-building our marriage. He helped her to understand about rebuilding trust...that it was simply something that she was going to have to do given how that trust had been so completely broken by her affair.

Your wife might not like to hear this, WNH, but it's simple truth. And reverse it on her too...make her tell you what she would think/feel/expect if this whole situation was reversed and YOU had been the one acting this way. Also, make it clear that you're clearly needing her to be there FOR THE KIDS too!

**snort** That cracks me up immensely when WS' play that card. It's so........DUMB! lol

I'm fairly sure she's walking the straight and narrow now. But I don't really know if she is, and I don't really know if she can keep on the straight and narrow.

She knows I don't trust her, and is having a hard time with my lack of trust. A bit optimistic to expect me to have much trust yet, since it's been only 17 days since I found out about the secret cellphone from way back when A#1 was going on, and only 24 days since I found out about A#2. Both of which she could have self-disclosed to me but didn't.

She understands logically that it's too early for me to have trust in her - but emotionally she is really troubled by it. I tried reversing roles: "If I were a WH and you the BW, would you trust me yet"? Unfortunately it kind of backfired. She said "no and I don't think I could ever trust you again, and that's what I'm afraid of that you won't ever trust me again". That one went very wide of the target. She added "I'm not sure how long I'm willing to wait for your trust to come back."

I haven't said this in awhile. I care very much for her, and she is the most important thing in the world to me. More than anything I want to keep our M and our family together.

I'd be grateful for any suggestions on how to address her concerns about whether I can ever trust her again.

She is not having a problme with your lack of trust, she is having a problem with you keeping her on a short leash. She wants you off her back so she can get back to the business at hand. A person who is sincerely done with their affair is willing to do what it takes to EARN trust. She is not at all.

Tell her you are not sure how long you are "willing to wait" for her to REGAIN your trust. Please make it clear that the onus is NOT ON YOU, wnh, BUT ON HER. She must work hard to EARN TRUST. It is not up to you to learn to trust her again, but up to her to EARN IT. Got that?

Tell her that you can learn to trust her again when she starts demonstrating trustworthy behavior over a long period of time, probably YEARS. And make it clear that you will never blindly trust her again.

Ask her what things she will be doing to earn your trust again.

She does not sound like a person who is remorseful or is done with her affairs, I am sorry to say. She sounds like a selfish, remoreseless person who cares nothing about the damage she has caused to your marriage. She is only interested in getting you off her back so you will quit watching her so closely, hence, the inappropriate DEMAND for undeserved trust.

If she is not willing to earn your trust, why would you be willing to try to trust her again? Her willingness has to come first, wnh. You cannot be expected to trust an untrustworthy person, so what is she going to do to earn your trust? <-------ask her this and put the onus on her. This is HER problem, not yours.

Thx Mel. She's done a lot, and I'm grateful for it. No more secret cellphone, I have complete access to her email account and cell logs, all of her time is accounted for, etc. There is some room for her to have secrets; but only because it's physically impossible to monitor her every second of the day. But where she is able to be transparent she is being transparent. All good stuff. I don't think she is involved with any bad stuff right now.

It's the timing that's the problem. She is depressed that I don't trust her yet. She knows that makes no sense, I guess it's a feeling thing not a thinking thing. May I ask for another helping of your terrific advice?

wnh, you have no control over her depression and shouldn't try to protect her from the natural consequences of her actions. This is a consequence of being untrustworthy. She is a big girl and can take it. Tell her to buck up and quit whining like a girl.

Maybe this is just one of those hard parts of recovery. Last 3 days WW has been silent and surly towards me. Nice to kids, nice to me when the kids or friends are around, but surly when it's just her and me.

Going to a little get-together on NY eve. Likely she will be sweet and nice to me while at the party, then surly and silent from the second we get home alone and start the new year. Yippee.

We had a chance to talk in the car last night, I tried probing, she was again surly. Nothing positive to say, hardly anything to say at all. Fine; 'do you not want to talk right now WW?'. No she was happy to continue the surly conversation.

Seems to be fueled by her resentment over not being trusted. Everyone - including her - knows it's not rational, but she still feels that resentment. AARGH. No idea what to do about her frustration, her attitude, no idea what I can do to help. Sick of this and really don't want to carry such a big load of it into the new year. Any thoughts?

We women call that emotional blackmail. It is often a very effective manipulation tactic when used on men.

My suggestion would be to not let it bother you and make it clear you view this as HER PROBLEM. Tell her, "I am sorry you are feeling so bad, dear. Hope things look better for you tomorrow." SMILE SWEETLY and leave the room. Don't let her see that it is gets to you because then she will know it is working. Once she sees that this won't work, she will tire of it and stop trying to manipulate you.

What does she want exactly? Does she want you to lie and say she is trustworthy?

She wants to be trusted, but knows it's not that time yet. For my part, I want to trust her, but know it's not time yet. We are both pained by the lack of trust. I tried talking about how the trajectory is right, and we seem to be climbing out of a deep dark pit. Given time we should see daylight again. It's a good thought; too bad it doesn't take the pain away for either of us.

For me, the RISK is a bigger concern than the pain. Since we're alienated 3 days now (her choice), there is a risk that something could bounce us back to the dark depths. For my part, I can hear the little demons saying "you don't need this, you've put up with it long enough, end this fiasco'. WW probably hears the same. Those buggers could win if they get us at a susceptible time, like now. I want to build strong defenses against them, by building - as quickly as possible - a tight relationship with WW. It's frustrating to me that she isn't able to cooperate in that effort.

If she "wants to be trusted" then what is she willing to do to EARN IT? It doesn't seem to me that y'all are looking at this in the proper perspective. It seems as if this is something she is DEMANDING you give her. That is backwards, wnh. This is something she must give you, by earning that trust.

wnh, what will you do if she uses this manipulative temper tantrum as, yet another, rationalization to screw around?