wnh, I'm amazed at how resliant you have been given all the crap you have put up with from you WW. She was really acting like a spoiled teenager for a while and it sound like things are slowly turning around for you. I'm glad you are back in the MB. How did that feel?

Your new relationship with God certainly has helped you stay focused and you deserve tons of credit for what you are trying to do. I know it seems like a long time, but you have only really been at this for a few months.

I get the same "trust" comments from my WW so I'm thinking that is a typical comment from a WW. They betrayed us in the worst possible way and they are concerned we don't trust them! Would a bank manager trust a former bank robber?

Take care my friend and stay strong.

For me this is a heckuva battle. Not a battle with WW, my fight is with those demons that daily send me bad messages. I am absolutely convinced I couldn't pursue the fight without MB. And MB has also been the key to finding God.

Man those are nasty little buggers. They appear at our most vulnerable times - like now when WW is surly and we are alienated. And persistent, they keep coming back like ants. I swat them, they appear again. I spray, there they are again...Where can I buy traps?

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:13 <-----powerful bug spray <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Mel I needed that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Last night in Group MC WW said - as she has before - 'when is it my turn, when can we talk about the problems in the M that preceeded the A?'.

Light bulb went off. What do you all think of the idea of inviting her to start a new thread, with her own login, either anonymous or known to me. She badly needs to talk about the topics that concern her. Her friends have been a terrific resource, but I fear that WW could at some point tire of bending their ear, or they tire of our story.

So what do you think? A few months ago I was advised to NOT invite her here. That was while A#1 was still going on. I know that was good advice. But things are different now. We are through withdrawal and starting a hard recovery road. I imagine WW would want the thread to keep focussed on the pre-A problems. I think she would say that she would not benefit from hearing opinions about the A events.

WW and I could really use some help from the beautiful generous posters on MB regarding our pre-A problems. What say you?

I don't think she is in a good place mentally to come here. If she comes here and tries to bullshi* us, she will get lambasted. And it sounds like that is where she is mentally if she "doesn't want to hear opinions about her A." She wants to talk about the peeling paint in the girl's bathroom on the Titantic while the ship goes down.

Thx Mel. I know it is - and should be - entirely in her control, she could just start her own login and tell her own story w/o mentioning the A history. For all I know she may already be here.

Additional opinions from others?

Does your wife have any idea on how long recovery takes for the betrayed spouse? Somewhere I heard that two years is the average. You could possibly Google that.

I think often the WS just wants to sweep the whole thing under the carpet. Although their feelings of love and commitment might have been shaken their feelings of trust and dependence for their spouses are mostly intact. For the BS these are emotions that have to be rebuilt.

Maybe you could find something for your wife to read about the recovery time.

Why do I have the feeling that this desire to tackle pre-affair issues is a typical WS ploy to blameshift? Don't you find it a little incongruous that she has little desire to work on the most critical problems but suddently wants to discuss minor ones?

The engine is blown in your car and she wants to discuss the tear in the back seat and ignore the blown engine. Isn't that a little odd, wnh?

But you know what? This might be an excellent opportunity to suggest that you both take the emotional needs questionaires. You could open a dialogue about which needs of yours she was meeting and which ones she wasn't and vice versa. This might be a very productive response. Do you know where to get the en questionaires?

Yup that could be a good idea. We've tried HNHN before. Could help some if we were to try it again maybe. But I'm convinced the troubles go deeper than HNHN can go.

Mel and others; they really aren't small things. Pretty big things. Really. We were in MC quite a few times before A#1 started. Some of my behaviors were really intolerable and I'm blessed that my WW was able to continue loving me despite my flaws. I wasn't entirely happy with all of her behaviors either, but I don't feel that as strongly as she does. She is truly deeply troubled by our marital history, and rightly so. I am guilty of some very poor behavior.

Even though we've talked in MC about those things probably 20 times, and even though I've renounced those behaviors and changed them, WW is not yet ready to buy into it or forgive me. I can't really blame her. At this point I would be happy just to know that she is trying to forgive. That's not clear to me, particularly when she is silent and surly like now.

I've asked myself whether she has put herself into a box and pulled the lid shut, and decided not to ever come out and forgive. But I don't think that's it. If that were the case she would not be going to two different MCs.

(Here is the part where I grab you by the lapels and make eye contact) I believe that WW is fighting her own quiet, desperate fight against her own raging demons. She's just not as vocal about it as I am. And I think it's a really pitched battle, and I fear that she doesn't have ready access to God or to his angels.

I don't want her to struggle by herself, and that's why I think she really needs a resource such as MB. I know you all can understand that!

Can I be boring and ask again? I think it's important. Who thinks she should come here and start her own thread, either anonymous or with my participation, to discuss pre-A problems in our M?

bumping just in case..

I think it is always helpful for the other spouse to post here.

Thanks believer. Any other views?

I am respectfully not saying much of anything on your thread here but one thing. You can read if or forget it I dont care it is for you and not me.

Is not her latest behavior related to her getting ready to have another affair? Others will have wiser advice. But sometimes if a wife is giving her husband a hard time, blaming, etc, it means they are thinking of having or ready to have another affair.

I've been putting off posting an update, for fear of jinxing what seems like good progress in our marriage. But the progress has been continuing for awhile, so maybe it's safe to offer a few words by way of update, and encouragement.

To start I need to say that WW has had surgery to correct a (probably congenital) medical condition. The condition was not minor, but not imminently life-threatening either. Cranial shunt for hydrocephalus. As it happens, she got a staph infection, so a second surgery followed to remove the shunt to better allow for curing the infection. Both surgeries were successful. Wife now faces a third surgery, at some point, to reinstall the initial shunt. She's faced all this with unbelievable courage and strength. I'm very proud of her and relieved - for her - that it's gone well.

I think the following is due to MB rather than to the surgeries. More than ever, I've realized that she is the light of my life. Nothing else in my life - except maybe the kids - is anywhere close to being as important to me as she is.

I do not think the progress in our marriage is due to the surgeries, or to my support during her medical trials. Instead, I attribute it to unbelievably generous support and advice from MB and MB posters. I've taken it to heart, and put it to work.

I've also been studying several marriage books. Have graduated the infidelity genre, and am now deeply into the 'Every Man's Marriage' genre. And I've joined two men's groups at church. The groups' philosophy is very much along the lines of MB Plan A. Treat her like the precious gift she is, stop trampling her spirit, love her in such a way that she FEELS loved,...that's just a start.

W're still early in recovery, probably only a couple of months into it now. But regardless, I believe my wife's heart has changed. I don't know whether that is due to my changes, or due to her medical challenges, or what. But I can clearly see the changes in her, and I am very grateful for them. And I dearly hope our relationship continues to improve.

For my part, I know with certainty that my own heart has changed. I see now that I've been pretty hard-hearted for many years. No longer. For a couple of months now I've been treating her like a precious gift. Not because I want anything in return; just because that's what every person, and especially my own wife, deserves. And my biggest wish is that I can continue to do that.

We have our challenges. E.g. I'm sorry to report that I'm still prone to angry outbursts. Last one 4 weeks ago. I can't believe it, and I'm very disappointed in myself for it. For months I've been searching for a way to control it. And just when I thought I'd solved the AO problem, I hit an iceberg. I will keep struggling with my problem, and I promise if it's the last thing I do, I will stop doing that to my wife.

We still don't communicate well, and I think in order to prevent difficulties down the road we need to find a way to talk about serious and difficult issues without causing hard feelings between us. Etecetera. You get the picture, we still have our challenges.

But our hearts are very different than they were last year, and I believe we are on the road to recovery. I can see it will be a long road - and as an illustration I'll just mention that although I believe my W hasn't misbehaved since late November or early December, I still haven't gone even one single day without thinking about her affairs. I've forgiven but not forgotten. Don't know if I ever will. But I do look forward to the time I can go a whole day without thinking about them.

Two things to add. First, thank you all so much for your love and generosity. It's been truly overwhelming, and really it's brought me to believe in God. I guess I've never felt I've needed him before, and I was stunned to find that when I asked, he was there. In the form of all the beautiful people on MB. Truly I thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

Finally, a word of encouragement for those struggling with infidelity and deeply troubled marriages. It can get better. Really it can. Read, study, learn, and most of all, give it all up to your wayward spouse. Love your spouse like God intends her to be loved. Your WS may respond as you hope, or may not. Either way, you will have done the right thing.

I don't know if our progress will continue. Ask me again in a couple of months. But I can definitely say, for sure, that I will continue treating my spouse like God intends.


I guess that's it for now. Good luck to you all, I will be reading your threads and praying for you.

WNH,

Thank you for the update and the good news. I was wondering...

I'll tell you what has worked for eliminating my AOs...

First, I read that anger tells you when someone is crossing your boundary or failing your expectation (two very different things). Says it is a good thing! Well, before, I would burst out because I would feel pain (anger) and pour it out of me, to get rid of it, all over the other person.

Nice image, huh? Okay. Now I stop and ask myself, boundary or expectation? Go back to your AO last month and ask yourself...which one? If it was an expectation, get down to what you expected that you didn't get...or got what you didn't expect? Usually, these will not result in AOs if you realize it was your expectation generating the emotion. There are reasonable and unreasonable expectations...coming from beliefs we hold. Some of those beliefs are way off from adult ones. The anger dissapates rapidly, no AO required, just realization.

If it was a boundary, was it yours? I've AO'd when my boundary has encircled others around me, stretched beyond my own respectful person. Reasonable or unreasonable boundary breech?

And if you find it was a real boundary breech, then no AO required. You've stated your boundaries and consequence of crossing it. I'm sure that consequence wasn't a loud slathering of anger all over the other person, right? You have planned courses of infringement...first time, I state my boundary and say you have crossed it, how it feels. Next time, I state my boundary and remove myself from the intruder and take my boundary with me. Third time? Depends...if it is stealing, I lock up my finances; if it is lying, I no longer believe; if it is...well, you get the idea.

I don't do DJ for DJ, rejection for rejection or pain for pain. When was my last AO? Hmmm...August? Before that? March. Before that? October, Nov and December of '04. I'd say I was getting better. And did you do amends after AO?

"We still don't communicate well, and I think in order to prevent difficulties down the road we need to find a way to talk about serious and difficult issues without causing hard feelings between us. Etecetera. You get the picture, we still have our challenges."

My H and I do weekly communication exercises (Dr. Howard Markman's books help); he does one on Sunday, I do mine on Thursday. Listening, summarizing, clarifying. We don't do big issues in them, but practice listening and repeating. No comments or judgments. We've been doing them for nearly a year. Supposed to make the tough issues easier, feeling safe and heard, room for POJA. Only thing, I don't think we've had big issues. A lot of each of us comes out in the exercises and small discussions.

You will get there with forgetting the triggers...lots of time and care. Eventually, after communicating better and safely, you'll be able to say your triggers aloud.."I just triggered to that color car..." and your W can say, "I hear that." Then you throw out the trigger, away from your mind, and it does go. My H has gotten safe enough with me to say, "Hey, I just triggered to ____" Amazing. "I hear that."

Can be done. I promise. You both are amazing people. We may end up bringing ourselves to our knees, but God is there, too. Sometimes, it is the only place we can see him.

LA

Thanks for the words LA. I'll take a look at Howard Markman's work, and I'll try your approach to AOs.

I need to think a bit about the expections versus boundaries question. Not sure which is more applicable to me; but I think it's more likely violated expectations. I work hard at treating others well, and also expect to be treated well. Sometimes my anger is a response to being treated badly, and sometimes I try to discuss with my W. I must be doing it wrong, since she often responds defensively, e.g. with a counterattack. Then I escalate, etc. It's a terrible pattern, and one which I should be able to break.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I think I can ultimately control the AO problem. I am fully committed to that.

I'm happy that you are in recovery. I wish you all success.

wnh,

I'm so happy to hear things are slowly turning around in your M that you feel you are now into recovery. Like I mentioned before, you have changed SO much during the time you have been posting here and I'm sure this has played a huge part in the success of your renewed R with your FWW.

You FWW is lucky to have a person like you beside her right now. I'm sure she is recognizing this and she will be even more thankful of you in the future. Most people going through what you did would have given up on the M a long time ago...you didn't and the results are slowing presenting themselves to you.

I really wish you all the best and hope your FWW makes a full recovery, both medical and emotional.

Stay strong my friend and keep us posted because stories like yours are what keeps us BS's going.

Thanks!

HTW

"I work hard at treating others well, and also expect to be treated well." Ahhh...why?

Golden Rule?

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

doesn't have

"and they will" on it.

This was a huge part of my AOs and DJs, WNH. I remember. That deceptive code to live by. Just says, make your standards of what you won't allow yourself to do to others. This uses the Golden Rule...You got a code of Honesty, Consideration, Respect, Appreciation, Compassion. That means, you don't lie, be rude or unaware, treat others as you feel you would like (that's disrespectful because they might have a completely different code), ignore or take for granted, or judge.

You cannot control how others treat you, regardless of how well you treat them. Just annoys some people to be treated by your standards...they are seperate. That's where the Golden Rule bites us in our understanding.

Why would they be upset with me? I love it when someone does my dishes after dinner! Rude people! Well, they were upset and that's fine. You were wrong to put your expectations onto them. Own and amend it. Done. Humans make mistakes. Do not judge others (period); when you do, you're trapped in your own frame of reference and you will be disrespectful, violating your own code.

Boundaries are what you do not allow others to do to you without consequences. Seems like I used DJs and AOs as consequences (they sooo aren't). Now I have to plan ahead for what those consequences will be, progressive for each crossing.

Boundaries and Standards have to be the same, don't they?

And within both, what you aren't allowed to do to others, allow to be done to yourself, then you MAY NOT do to yourself. There is the triangle of unending balance. When you feel an AO coming on from unmet expectations, look to see what you're doing to yourself. If you're saying, "I'm not angry. I'm concerned" when you are angry, then you are lying to yourself. "Of course I didn't mind you taking all the covers!" You are being inconsiderate to yourself...you get the picture. We fail our own expectations (to be decent, kind, prepared, soft spoken, calm...etc.) all the time. We don't apologize or do amends for ourselves. Balance requires this above all.

"Sometimes my anger is a response to being treated badly, and sometimes I try to discuss with my W. I must be doing it wrong, since she often responds defensively, e.g. with a counterattack. Then I escalate, etc. It's a terrible pattern, and one which I should be able to break.'

Read the books and use "I" statements: "I feel" and "I believe" are powerful because they contain your personal truth and no accusation. You are simply stating how you feel. When your wife feels defensive, she feels attacked, whether or not you're attacking. The "I" statements eliminate the "You make me" "You are so sensitive" DJs. Just about you, your thoughts and feelings. But get to the most bottom of your beliefs...that if you treat others well, you will be treated in kind. You won't. Only you can control you. Once you have this as an acceptable belief, your anger flares diminish--they are to give you information when someone is trampling on your boundaries...and if your boundary was so wide as to attempt to make others treat you well...then, they will flare and flare (suppress and suppress) until the outburst.

Your wife feels attacked...from past AOs and DJs. Almost like a routine. You've stopped so much of it, that routine is changing, and change is unsettling. Give it more time and really promote the exercises and how safe you are for her to be how she will be--defensive, counterattacking...detach and know this is about her and how unsafe she has felt for so long. She'll get there. She's reacting to a person who isn't there...you're new. You've learned so much.

Might get rid of the right and wrongs of feelings, too. They just are what they are. She might be defensive and you may be doing your best (not wrong or right). You might trigger to past habits and feel defensive and she isn't doing anything in the present to cause you to feel that. You just do. Know, examine and own it. They're yours and hers and hers.

Should be able to break...you have broken it. Remind yourself how you do things differently because you have different goals--AOs are no longer how you express yourself. Your goal is to eliminate them. That should help what your heart hands you as information in the way of emotions.

Escalation...trying to hurt the other so they will stop hurting you. Didn't work as kids...both ended up with indian burns and knots on our scalps. Realize your goal when escalating is to stop hurting. Then you can immediately step back and knowing you're hurting someone, hurting them hard. Cease and desist, right? Code of compassion has that flood in you, knowing you're sharing this desire mutual during escalation--hurt to stop hurting. You're four-years-old; no wonder you feel everything so stunningly, huh?

Sorry to write another novel...got lots of this stuff in my posts to others. You say it before. I'll shup now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You'll get to your goal. Hearts open wide when they are safe.

LA