I am interested in comments from anyone out there who cares to contribute...

Reading a new post about SA brought this up in my mind, again.

My WxH used to do something that made me feel "creepy". Of course, at this point in my life, we have been divorced for 2 years, and we rarely speak, so I am not looking for suggestions on how to deal with it. I am just curious to see if anyone else has a similar experience they would like to share.

He used to hide out and "spy" on me. I am not sure how long it went on, because I am certain that it happened more often than I was aware of. a couple of examples:
One morning I was showering, and realized that he was standing in the door jam, peeking through a crack in the door. He could have walked right in - the door was not closed. In fact the door was wide open - he was peeking through the crack on the side of the door where the hinges are. When I saw him I said "what are you doing" and he said "just watching you" and I said "then walk in, and watch. Why are you peeking through the door in secret? He had no response.
another time, we were at a department store, and I told him I was going to go pick out some underwear. He did not walk to that department with me, he said he was going to look at other things,and would meet with me in a few minutes. While I was looking at underwear I felt eyes on me. Turned around, and he was peeking around the end of another aisle, watching me. Again, I said "what are you doing?" and he said "Just watching you" and I said, then walk over here and watch me. Why are you being secretive.

I am no prude. He was welcome to look at me naked, or watch me dress, etc. But he always had to hide while he did it. Another time he hid a video camera - not in the bedroom - and taped me watching tv in the living room. Ever since that day I wondered if he had hidden a camera in other areas without telling me.

In each case, something about the whole situation made me feel "creepy". the look on his face, the fact that he was hiding..
the time at the department store - he was clearly hiding at the end of the aisle, peeking around the corner. If store security had caught him, they would have questioned him for sure, just because he looked suspicious.

Comments?
Please, I don't want to hear all about how men are "visual", that is just the way they are geared, etc. I know all that. this was different.

Over these past couple of years, he has become such a different person, I wouldn't be surprised if he is now peeking through other womens windows, or masturbating in his car, etc. I fully expect to hear that he has been arrested some day.

It all sounds pretty strange and creepy to me, too.

Voyeurism is level 2 of a sex addiction. A person who has reached this level has the potential to be envolved in a nuisance crime. It's definately not about men being visual!

It is very likely he has continued this (and was fdoing this while you were M) with other women too. This weekend I cleaned out my H's porn collection and was surprised to find a folder of pictures of me...great, I was a fantasy to him too...

I'm so sorry, but you are right, he is bound to be arrested for this behavior (if he hasn't already). Milk's STBWXH was arrested for public indecency I think for m/bing in his car...

my personal opinion is that it doesn't sound creepy but kind of sweet....

I'm not convinced that we can definately lable these behaviors as extremely odd.......or SA or anything.....too little context.........except perhaps the secret camera in the living room...but without honest communication between the two parties we can not conclude these were bizarre behaviors...

I could see myself watching my hubby shower without him noticing just to have a moment to myself to admire him....and I might even peek through the door just to maintain his actions being his and 'sincere"....

i love to watch him do things...and would even perhaps sneek up on him at a store ..NOT buying tightie whities.....and just sit back and admire him...I find him handsome...and I love to sit back and objectively admire him..and I might even peek....if he saw me ...I'm sure he and I would both laugh about it....

why does admiring your spouse have to be creepy....

more damaging is sexual activity between people who don't won't can't discuss these type of things...and judge them or let them become something they want or may or may not be...

I love to admire mr ark when he is building or fixing something....love to watch his hands do something......they appear strong and powerful....

and I don't see that when I stop what I am doing and stand in a doorway for moment just watching him puts me in a category of peeking through peoples window...or doing a level two crime...whatever that is........

I think seeing your spouse through admiration in things they are doing is a good thing...

ark

Ark, every word you spoke, showed your love and admiration for your spouse.
Your husband is very lucky to have you, and be sure to tell him that too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just want to point out there is a difference between admiration of a spouse and sexualization of a spouse. Arks view is admirable and correct. But there are those with sex addictions that sexualize spouses and make them into objects. Unfortunately I have known men who have done that and it's very sad for the wives.

ASKME...

You can't be sexualized by a spouse without your consent...
the first time a person feels sexualized ..(whatever that means for I am sure there are a million different diagnosis for that)...then that is the time to stop and discuss....


I don't buy sexual addiction as a diagnosis...which is NOT the same as saying I don't disagree that people have issues with sex...

here's the thing about this post...the only way to really know what this meant to and by her husband...was to discuss it when it occured....

not now...

and since it was opinions that were asked for...then my opinion is that a husband peeking on his wife while showering and while buy underwear does not a pervert make...

ark^^

I gave both sides, there are those who can look at their wife and admire them and it's ok.

There are those who do it with other intent and it's to sexualize the person as an object.

The key to what I say in the post is it was done in "secret". When things tend to be done in secret they tend to be problems.

There are women who are weak and vulnerable and allow their husbands to manipulate them into doing things they don't want to do. I know one man who was a voyeur and he made his wife perform acts that others could see. One day she had a breakdown and finally sought out help and separated from him until he got help.

I don't see how one can spy on a person without it being a secret...

If I admire my husband from a distance and he doesn't know it...does that make me a SA??

If I stand at the other end of a crowded room and admire him without him knowing I have come in does that make me a SA....

I would say that there are times that I admire my husband from afar...and think dayum he looks yummy...
am I sexualizing him???

the key here is not the actions...
the key is the lack of communication and consent....

ARK

Ark I hope you don't feel that I am arguing with you. And I hope you don't feel that in any way I have implied your actions are that of a SA, if so I apologize.

I am just saying there are level 2 sex addicts who are voyeurs and when you meet one, and hear their problems, and listen to their co-addict wife describe their years of misery with their husbands you would understand what I was trying to point out. Their level of thinking is not admiration.

WOF,

I think if, at the time,you noticed this behavior and it bothered you you should have talked to him about it.Maybe it bother's you more now being D'd but it could have been something benign like what ark mentioned.

But,I also think that given your H was a WH then it may have been part of a larger problem with him.The key was that it made you uncomfortable and addressing it would have been the best option but,who knows for sure at this point.No one should make you feel creepy though,even your spouse.

O

Well here's the problem I see with this whole issue of SA and labels...

in this original post...I don't hear years of misery in relationship to these acts...

I hear confusion
I hear uncomfortableness...

I don't hear what happened when the issue was delved in to by both parties....
don't even know if they discussed it at the depth it needed in relationship to the uncomfortableness....


here's the slippy slope...these labels leave little room for any type of normal or healthy sexual expression...

ALL acts are viewed as suspicious
ALL acts are vile.....

admiration of a spouse from afar could and may be the admirable thing a person does....how do they get rewarded for healthy behavior...AND who decides what is unhealthy and healthy............

believe me I don't for one nanosecond believe I am SA...


I don't you nor I nor anyone can decide another persons level of thinking without asking and discussing with them....

ARK

Not the place to discuss this -

Woman - I have a gf who has told me things her H has been doing. He is a voyuer as well. It is creepy and she has since found out he is looking into windows of peoples homes. She is so affraid and is thinking of D. However he now has a serious heart condition and may not live beyond next year. She is angry and needs IC. This is bad and can get worse. I agree with you. When something does not feel right it is our own senses telling us something is not right.
Looking and admiring someone where you can be seen is different then hiding. Hiding is the issue. I would talk with him about this. Peeping is the issue.

realtor..

peeking in neighbors is way way different than the original topic.............
I get that........

the danger in my opinon is the application between spouse and stranger..............

I don't even argue with it not feeling right BUT there is onus of responsibility to OWN those feelings and delve and explore

NOT play monday am quarterback and label this or that...when it was never exposed and discussed.......

ARK^^

I am sorry that it has taken me awhile to respond to these great replies! I have been busy at work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You all have brought up the very stuff that has run through my mind. And here again, I rarely speak to him, so I will not likely have the chance to address any of it with him at this point.

Ark, I totally agree with you. there are times when I watch my new husband, from across the room, and I am over whelmed at how peaceful he is. He has such a loving soul, and it shows right through. But this is different, and I did talk to my Ex about it each time it came up.

There was a certain look on his face, that was not loving. it was as if he didn't know who I was - or care. when ever I would "catch" him peeping, he would not smile, or complement me. He was almost in a trance until I said "what are you doing?" and then he would say "watching you." he would never say anything like "just looking at my lovely wife" it was always just "watching you".

When I am admiring my new H from across the room, and he turns and looks at me, I always smile at him. I look into his eyes and aknowledge that I was watching him. But my ex never did that. He would rarely even realize that I was looking back at him until I said something. I think that is the part that feels creepy.

There were other things too, like he always sat in our hot tub naked, even though it was clearly visible from the road, and people driving by could see it. Usually he would be down, under the water, but as he would get in or out of the tub, people would be able to see that he was naked. His porn use had progressed to the point where he would not watch a movie unless is was a hard R or X. He used to look at his porn magazines only in the bedroom, away from our 2 sons. But that had progressed to looking at them in the living room, right in front of 2 teenage boys. I tried to talk about it many times, but I was always told that I was making to big a deal of it. he asked me when I became so sensitive.

After our D, he and OW #1 had a rocky R. Big surprise. After about 6 months of an on again off again R between them, they finally broke off for good. She took out a restraining order against him. He called me, crying, to tell me abou the RO. Crying on my shoulder about how bad he felt. I guess he felt comfortable at that point telling me more of his "secrets" becuase he told me that he has several video tapes of he and OW involving oral SF, and he was going to tell her that she needed to get rid of the RO or he would show the tapes to family and friends. that was when I decided that it was best if I did not take any more of his calls, and we rarely talk any more.

My first thoguht at the time was "thank goodness he is no longer my problem, and I never allowed him to video tape us during SF". At this point I am starting to wonder if his issues are much bigger than I realize, and perhaps my boys will some day find out that their dad is in jail.....

Someone above said that she found pictures of herself that her H had with his porn. I have found pictures of me, in my nighty, that he was "hiding". In fact, I forgot anout that until I read this post. He took these pictures with my knowledge, I didn't mind it if I had my nighty on. But I never saw the pictures again, until I found them hidden in his cabinet. I guess that is the other creepy part - the hiding, the secret. A picture of your wife. Why would you hide it in a locked cabinet? He had the combination, and would not give it to me. That is where he kept all the magazines and videos. He had one that was even laminated. it fell out of the cabinet once when he opened it, so I asked him "why do you have a picture of me, in a nighty, laminated?" his answer was "I take it with me when I go hunting". I said "do the other guys see that picture when you go hunting?" and he said "I leave it right by my bed" I said "I really don't like other men to see me in my nighty! Are you sure that is a good idea?" and he just got mad, locked the picture up again, and stormed out of the room.

I have a feeling the other men never saw that picture. I have a feeling it was hidden while he was hunting.

I mean, why did he have to hide it? It was me, if he was proud of me, why not let me know? Of course, about 6 months after the incident he annoncued that he was leaving for OW, that they had been "seeing each other" for a year, that he never loved me, that he "tried to love me" but just couldn't do it. I asked him why, if he didn't love me, did he claim to carry my picture, laminated, while he was hunting. His answer was "I carried the picture to try to make myself love you. I tried to force it. but I just couldn't do it"

I don't belive that crap.

I need to log off for now, but I will come back later. There is more I want to share. About 5 years ago we found out his father had molested our 15 year old niece,and my EX's sisters, when they were young.

I just wanted to add that I Sooooo appreciate everyones response here. This is an issue that has been on my mind for many years. I was always afraid to talk to anyone about it.
Ask me-

Can you give me a little more info about this. I am not familair with the levels.
Thank you.

This is from an article that discusses some of Dr. Patrick Carnes research on sexual addiction. Probably one of his best books on the subject is Out of the Shadows.


Dr. Carnes has identified different levels of sexual addiction that the sex addict will experience.

Level one addiction deals with the "victimless" crimes such as prostitution, pornography, anonymous sex, and compulsive relationships.

Level two addictions deal with the intrusive sexual acts such as exhibitionism, voyeurism, indecent phone calls and indecent liberties (unwanted touch).

The third level of the sexual addiction involves child molestation, rape and incest.


An example of how a template can work is provided by Dr. Carnes (2001): "A boy learns about sex looking at women wearing lingerie in a department store catalogue. He becomes fixated on lingerie and discovers lingerie websites. He also becomes sexually involved with a woman who works for a lingerie company. He is arrested for breaking into people's homes and taking lingerie."

The person's addiction was prompted by the earlier template, and the compulsion to act out prompted a violation of another person. The cycle of behavior keeps repeating itself, creating a greater downward spiral for the addict. The stages of addiction begin with preoccupation, a trance state in which the person is totally engrossed in an obsessive search for sexual stimulation. The next stage is ritualization, special routines that lead up to the sexual behavior. The third stage, the end result of the first two stages in which the addict has no control, is compulsive sexual behavior. This is in part due to the level of unconscious repression the addict is experiencing. The fourth and last stage is that of despair. This continues in a vicious cycle due to the limitations of awareness of the conscious waking mind.

The core issue still remains unaddressed in the unconscious. If one were to trace back the template to the source or core issue it would most likely reside in an unconscious and unresolved prenatal/natal/childhood issue. The benefit of talk therapy with addictions can be limited, because most unconscious behavior is not addressed through cognitive processes. The use of the subconscious and unconscious process to release the addictive patterns is integral for a person's recovery.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Huh? I have never heard this before. As I read this statement, I was gripped with a picture of his face when I would see him "peeking" at me. He looked like a different person. I can't even describe it. That time, at the store, when he was "lurking". he wasn't just standing in the aisle, watching his wife. he was hugging the aisle, peeking around the corner. Honestly, if store security had walked
by at that time, they would have questioned him.

I am not saying that I plan to have him watched, or arrested. I guess I am just starting to bring out the stuff that has been heavy on mind for many years.

more later

If you are really interested in understanding sexual addiction you can order Dr. Carnes book online at Amazon.Com or any of the other online book.com stores, Out of the Shadows: Understanding Sexual Addiction

Dr. Patrick Carnes is considered the expert on sexual addiction and first defined the sexual addiction model.