It's certainly not time to trust yet.

If you go, go with no expectations...just to wow him.


Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes, ditto!

Especially if you don't feel that you can handle it!

My feelings entirely. I just don't want to mess up what I have achieved so far with Plan B. And why I am hesitant to do the date thing at this point. He has not done one single thing that I have asked him to do regarding the A and our relationship since May(except attend MC). Correct me if I am being too much of a hard-a$$, but I feel like a NC letter is kind of mandatory before I see him again.



But, what if I don't want to know all of the details?? We would have to talk about their R?? That just seems too painful........Oh, gosh. Contact OWH?? ML, you know how much I love doing that..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Kim, you only have to be told what you WANT TO KNOW. But he has to be willing to tell you whatever you want to know in order to heal. You may not want to know anything! But he has to be willing to take down that wall between you and him and put up the wall between he and the OW. He can have no more secrets from you in order for trust to be rebuilt.

Heck, you should be an old pro at calling the OWH by now! Isn't the only reason you hated calling him because your H used to manipulate you into feeling like you had been bad?

You are absolutely CORRECT!! It is the LEAST he can do if you are willing to speak to him after the things he has done.

Yep. I was being bad b/c I was putting OW in danger. Well, this time if I contact OWH it will be with good news.

O.k., got it with the "learning about his A" - He needs to be open to my questions & in answering them honestly IF I want to know.

Got to get some shut eye! Have a horrible cough & haven't been sleeping well at night. Took some different meds tonight, so hope to sleep much better -

Blessings to all of you - and ML, thanks so much for giving me that verse so long ago to recite.

I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me.

Kim

Night, Kim, God Bless!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Being the victim of two, yes two, false recoveries, I don't recommend that you break PLAN B..unless he does the NC letter...

I just think that you may be setting yourself up for a fall..

Plus, a fix at this point may enable the A during a difficult time for him..

He needs to continue to SUFFER until he cannot bear your absence in his life any longer...

I just know, when I did this..broke PLAN B when he was not fully ready to commit to me... my FWH became EVEN closer to the OW..it was like he could bear her once more after he got a fix from me...

My opinion...

I did the dates..the dates felt good while I was there with him..but for him to leave me and go back to her..tore my heart in two...what an awful pain...almost like a heart attack when I would feel it..YUK...

Wishing you the best, Kim....

This is the absolutely best advice of the night... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Lem

And also to make sure that your H's story lines up with what OWH knows. And there is no reason for you to hide it either!

Well, there you have it from the Plan B pro. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi KIM,

I am with Mimi:-------------------------------------------
I did the dates..the dates felt good while I was there with him..but for him to leave me and go back to her..tore my heart in two...what an awful pain...almost like a heart attack when I would feel it..YUK...
----------------------------------------------------------

For me, it was the reason for going into PLAN B: once WS moved out, seeing WS and knowing that he was going 'home' to OW made me totally sick... I have never denied it... for me PLAN B was not so much a strategic move as much as a 'survival' move.

I would not go for a date... until you are connvinced of his sincerity and desire to work on M (the NC with OW letter is 'peanuts' compared to a committment to M).

I would be suspicious a bit why this is all happening 'just before' Christmas.... don't rush.....

Hi Kim,
I'm with you the NC is a must, and just a beginning to a conversation not moving back home. If/when it is time for a date...met him there...so if he starts talking about refi or something else counter productive you have the option to get up and walk out. Of course he'll be watching as you gracefully exit knowing he checking out just how good you look. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Susan, Mimi, Luna & Confused - Again, much appreciation for your posts. WH is really pushing it and the adivice and support I am getting here is priceless.

I got another call from Sara this afternoon. WH asking again for me to meet him for dinner. I repeated to Sara how I felt about the NC letter. Sara said that WH wanted to talk to me about a lot of different things(WHICH SHE HAPPENED TO INCLUDE THE WORDS "REFI"!!!!!!!!) I was late picking up DS, so I told her I would have to call her back as I had just pulled into my neighbor's driveway. Sara said that WH said he was just going to call me on my phone. I swear WH is so off his rocker. Does he want to reconcile or does he just want to get his finances straightend out??

A few minutes later WH called me. I didn't answer. He left a message on my cell. I have not listened to it.

When I got home, I called over at Sara's and Charlie picked up. I told him that I was getting back with Sara and that I really needed a NC letter before I talked with WH. Charlie said that he has had several talks with WH and with the last talk was quite stern with him. Told WH that he wasn't the catch he thought he was. That he didn't have anything to offer OW or anybody else right now. Said that he thought I should reconsider the NC letter. ARGH.

Apparently WH's last attempt at contact with OW was WH leaving a message:"If you don't call me back, then don't bother ever calling me back."

Is that his lame attempt at NC?? That is what Charlie and WH are trying to lead me to believe. I told Charlie that is not WH making a choice or decision. That is OW making the choice by not calling him back.

Charlie said that if WH writes that letter, WH feels like two things could happen:
1 - OW might get beat up from receiving a letter from WH.
WH would then get a call from OW. Then WH would feel the need to go to OW's rescue again.
2 - OW will see the NC letter as a challenge. "Oh, he is "daring" me to contact him." Then she will start the "game" again and try to reach him.

THIS IS TOTAL BULL. Charlie said that from what he hears that OW is not a nice person(gee, I knew that all along). And that she is probably the abusive one in she and her H's relationship. OW enjoys pushing both her H's and my H's buttons and is very manipulative. That she has been jerking WH around for the past 2 months.

Here is the worst part. Charlie has advised WH NOT to write the NC letter. To just be done with it. If she calls don't answer. Change his home #, cell # and work #. I love Charlie to death, but some of his thinking is way off. I know he means well, but he sometimes makes me feel like I am the bad guy.

Charlie:"If WH comes home, he doesn't want to feel like he his "grounded"(he needs to get to go out and play at Open Mic if he wants to)."

"If WH comes home you need to be ready to forgive him and to trust him."

and so on. He did say some supportive things to me, but I just don't think he totally gets this. I told him that I felt like he was forgetting that I was the victim in this. I said that I didn't want to get into all of the cruel and mean things that WH did to me.....but I ended up sharing a couple of things anyway.

Bottom line. Charlie said that WH would not write that letter. Charlie said he didn't believe the abuse story. WH is just not going to do it. What if she got beat up? What if she got back into the game of the A?

I told Charlie this: "O.k. There are a lot of unknowns here that are being proposed with this letter. We don't know if any of this will happen. But here's what I know is fact. Here's what it will do for me. It will show me that WH is sincere and is making a decision rather than someone else making the decision for him. It shows me that he wants to end the A. It is a big step in restoring trust in our R. That is what I know is fact."

I know this is a lot of info. I guess what it boils down to is that WH is not ready to work on our M.

My gosh. If he writes that letter, OWH should be jumping for joy if he sees it. Beat her up b/c of it??? That's crazy.

So, I guess I'm sitting tight for a while longer. WH knows he is going to be miserable on Christmas Day.

Kim

Sounds like he is still not ready to work on the marriage. Maybe a couple more months in Plan B will help.

I would not discuss all of this with Charley, as he doesn't really understand the MB program. If your WH does come home, he will need to be GROUNDED to work on the marriage. He will need to consider his wife's feelings more important than the manipulative OW's. I just know she isn't being beat up.

Don't discuss any of this anymore. I think your husband is more interested in the refinancing at this point.

Good job, Kim! HOLD YOUR GUNS. My God, this is such a silly thing to quibble over. If he was serious about committing to the marriage and ending his affair, he would have no problem writing the letter. So just reiterate to Charlie that this is the MINIMUM expectation for you to even CONSIDER talking to him again. If he is advising WS against it, then he is not helping him.

Charlie and your WS's opinion about the NC letter means NOTHING. They are not the one taking him back - YOU ARE. Therefore, YOU set the conditions.

Kim, his refusal to send the nc letter and his manipulation of Charlie over this simple issue should tell you clearly where his heart is. And he is NOWHERE ready to come back.

And the fact that he is still LYING about the OWH tells me he is still lying about other things. He is still lying about this and he is probably still lying about contact with the OW. He just wants to talk to you to get you to refinance probably.

Don't touch it with a 10' pole! Ya did great, Kim!

Yeah, and that really frustrates me that he is trying to counsel us both. I really don't think I can talk to Charlie about it anymore. I am just going to have to stick to one sentence or two if Charlie asks me anything(kind of like I had to do with WH - repeat, repeat, repeat.) We had a great conversation the other night, but this one made me feel like I was having to defend myself.

This only makes me feel more strongly about the NC letter. Thanks Believer!

Kim

Thanks for reminding me of that!!!!!



So true. Sad, but true. His heart is still with OW.



Thanks ML! Gotcha on that!!

NC letter is my condition. Take it or leave it. I am done trying to explain my reason. My reason should be very clear. End of discussion.

I hate that WH has manipulated Charlie this way. I guess there is nothing I can say or do to fix that.

Kim

Kim, why not send Charlie a nice email explaining that you won't consider even talking to H until a no contact letter has been sent to the OW and you are assured that a) contact has been ended and b) he is fully committed to rebuilding your marriage. That is just the beginning. And while you understand that he, [Charlie] might not support this, it is something you will require as a good will gesture before you even consider speaking to WH.

Further, comments like: "If WH comes home, he doesn't want to feel like he his "grounded"(he needs to get to go out and play at Open Mic if he wants to)."

lead you to believe that WH is not interested in repairing the damage he caused or in rebuilding trust. Trust must be earned, it is not an entitlement. WH is only worried about having some fun and has said NOTHING about repairing the damage he caused.

When he starts talking about that and becomes willing to do whatever it takes to repair the damage he caused, then you will listen. Until then, you are not interested in anything WH has to say.

You will not negotiate, the time for negotiation is long past. That door is closed. You are not interested in anything less than total, sincere committment to rebuilding your marriage.

Please explain all this to Charlie and tell him you love him dearly for caring so much for you and WH.

Hmmm.....I believe I will do that. Not try to explain my position, but state my position. Not try to explain how MB works, just tell him my requirements.

I'll send to both Charlie & Sara.....