I agree with BELIEVER...

Each time...yes there were two..the NC Letter was a measure of my WH's seriousness..He also, of course, as ARK indicated, had to be committed to what he said in the letter...

We did the letter as recommended by Dr. Harley below...



The letter was read by me and mailed by us together...

Sure it is meaningless without the committment to back it up..

However, the foggy, lost, WS needs a roadmap..needs clear, concise behavioral steps to take in the process of ending the A...my H seemed to need checkoff points to make his way back home...

LIKE HANSEL AND GRETEL and the BREADCRUMBS....

Kim,

I think you can talk to him without the "FINAL LETTER"..just make it short and simple..

"GET RID OF THE OW"..CLICK....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

LOL Believer

Ark does bring up some interesting points, and it boils down to attitude ~ the spirit in which the letter is sent.

WS's that are serious about recovering their marriage do not grumble and send the letter grudgingly with hesitation. That is a big red flag that they are more concerned with protecting the OP and quite possibly their relationship with them.

Susan

BTW, Kimberly:

I just read over what's been going on over the past few days..

I agree with Mel, Believer, Susan and others...

He's trying to "play" you (for a fool, that is) and Charlie is of no help...

Your WH doesn't sound like he is ready to end the affair YET...I think he knows that he has to, may want to, but is not READY...

SO IT IS NOT TIME TO TALK TO HIM...

DARK..DARK..DARK...

He needs to come begging and pleading..on bended knee... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

When he gets to that point of SUFFERING, he will be more than willing to write the LETTER.."What else do you want and need for me to do, KIM?"

I made the mistake of falling for JUST THE NC LETTER as ARK indicates..

However, I think that YOU DO NEED THE NC LETTER but also THE COMMITMENT AND PASSION which stand behind it...BOTH ARE NECESSARY....

My FWH sent TWO LETTERS..it is a TESTIMONY of his COMMITMENT TO YOU just like a WEDDING RING..

I guess I am speaking to the SIGNIFICANCE of the SYMBOLISM..

Don't you hate it when you hear people say that I don't need to WEAR A WEDDING RING to indicate that I am MARRIED?..same issue as the LETTER...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi Kim,

quote:-----------------------------------------------------
WS's that are serious about recovering their marriage do
not grumble and send the letter grudgingly with hesitation.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if sometimes WS just doesn't quite understand the benefits or objectives of an NC letter.... maybe BS should try and communicate how it would bring a greater sense of security and proof of seriousness of committment to marriage.... sometimes it doesn't take much to clear up misunderstandings... I am sure more WS wanting to recover M would more willingly send a NC letter were time be taken to express what it would 'symbolically' mean to BS.

What I see Ark saying is that the NC letter should not become an issue to 'powerstruggle' over.... or it will lose all its worth. It should be send willingly by the WS.... not just to please BS. An NC letter should not never come across as a 'control' mechanism...

We all agree, the NC letter should only be a manifestation of the willingness of WS to work on marriage... it's worthless otherwise.

I would definitely propose the NC letter as a means to help BS start gaining 'trust' of WS... but if WS is reluctant to write it, put the ball in the WS court, and ask if WS has other means/ideas of showing 'seriousness' of his committment.... let WS think about it.... if WS is serious, most likely, WS may reach same conclusion as Harleys, that maybe an NC letter would be a 'concrete' way for WS to show his intent....

Insisting that WS write an NC letter without a clear understanding of why it is necessary... may only lead to a lot of frustration and again....misunderstandings...

In your case, Kim, it seems to me you also want to know that he's coming back to you because he wants YOU, and not because OW doesn't want him!

Let's not forget.... emotions are high during holidays....may not be the best time to make decisions of any kind.... most likely they will be based on 'emotions' rather than thought-out.

I don't see a problem with discussing what WS issues are about writing the NC letter and dealing with them so that WS can reach a place where he would be comfortable writing one.....like, fully understanding that to a BS it would be more than just 'words' but an 'action' because as a BS we have been subjected to a lot of 'meaningless words'...etc. a lot of WS do not have the knowledge of MB principles... what's so obvious to people here may not be so obvious to a WS.

Anyway, Kim, these are just my thoughts on the issue.... I have a feeling you will have to decide how to deal with the source of your WS reluctance to write NC as I see MB members may have slightly divergent views on this 'means'....because we are all in agreement about the 'end'.

...I do trust your judgement.

Luna:

I agree with your post to a great extent. You make really good points.

You made me think of a strategic issue..

The WS, in trying to end the A, REMAINS pretty much in the FOG..

So, I was directed to keep discussions and communications VERY SIMPLE...

"Get rid of the OW"..paraphrased to include, "BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE"...you know what I mean..legal means...

It's important not to get involved in a lot of complicated conversation about WHY and such...JUST DO IT ... END THE AFFAIR..COLD TURKEY...the WS really knows what he has to do and what he has done in terms of losing the trust of the BS...

Bottom line..the A needs to be ended...or there needs to be a definite COMMITMENT on the part of the WS to end the A...

Ending the A is extremely difficult and, from my understanding and experience, the WS needs some assistance from the BS..that's where the phone conversations come in...I think Mortarman referred to it as being MODIFIED PLAN B....Negotiations to end the war...

THEN the FINAL LETTER...which is written and mailed together..

SPEAKING HERE ABOUT LOGISTICS....

To MIMI:

quote:---------------------------------------------------
The WS, in trying to end the A, REMAINS pretty much in the FOG..

So, I was directed to keep discussions and communications VERY SIMPLE...

the WS needs some assistance from the BS..that's where the phone conversations come in.
----------------------------------------------------------

Gotcha!

Thanks you all. There have been no phone calls tonight. WH's voice mail is still on my cell phone & I have not listened to his message.

I don't know whether or not to at this point.

No activity is good for tonight. I need to think about all of this.....

Are you saying that I should make a short phone call & ask WH what he thinks his plan might be to help me heal? I don't know what to do. Staying dark is not a problem, but I don't want to miss any opportunity to help move along a reconciliation.

I know that the right attitude has to be behind a NC letter. But his unwillingness to take that step is a sure sign that he is not ready.

Kim

I say, for sure, do not call him...

When he is at the right place, HE WILL PURSUE YOU and SHOULD...

When you are ready, listen to the voice mail and let us know what it says...

So, it's o.k. to listen to his voice mail then - I shouldn't just delete it??

Thanks Mimi -

Kim

IMO, it is necessary to listen to the voice mail..

I find that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER...

O.k. - I'll take a deep breath & see what it says. My bet is that it's "we need to talk about refinancing the house." Nothing about what he wants to do to heal the M.

Will get back with you guys....

Kim

Well.....on second thought....."forget it".

Sounds good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I am extremely interested in the "knowledge" that Mimi thinks you will gain by listening to the lies this man will try and tell you on the phone.

I am interested to see your "resolve" and "strength" after you get yourself a little "fix" of him.

Honestly Kim, your a smart girl, you have been given alot of support to get as far you have gone. Your cheating husband knows full well what HE NEEDS TO DO to come back to your life.

WHY IS IT THAT PEOPLE PERSIST IN THINKING THESE PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. THEY KNOW. THEY KNOW. Stop making excuses for them.

If your WH wanted out of the affair, he would simply STOP, send the NC letter, and DO (notice, I said "do" and not "say") everything he needed to do to try and repair the utter devestation he has imparted on your and your son's life.

This is the precise reason why I hate all of this rationalization and focus on this ALL BEING about an addiction. Yes, it is "part" of it...but please.....GET REAL. Your WH knows what he needs to do. You want the truth.....HE SIMPLY DOESN'T WANT TO DO IT NOW. When he WANTS to DO IT...he will.

You are an adult Kim, not a child....why are you asking permission to go and listen to the "message" left by your WH? Why? You "know" what the answer already to this is, but you ask, hoping, just "hoping" you'll get the go "ahead" to do this. You even got an "expert" to tell you this is "necessary"....

Yes, knowledge is "power"....but only "knowledge", not the self serving BullShyttt that no doubt litters your voice mail box.

Goodluck with this.

You asked why I have been quiet lately...this is one of the reasons. I am afraid that too many people currently on these boards are looking for people to tell them what they want to hear....NOT what they NEED to hear. I am not saying this is you...but you asked.

Maybe after the holidays I will feel differently.

Take care.

Lem

O.k. - Pretty much what I thought.

He said he was calling b/c Sara was pretty busy with family in town & that he told her he would call me and leave a message. Here's most of what he said:

"I would really like to have lunch or dinner with you. A time when we can spend more than an hour together to talk about a couple of things. The refinance for one. I am running out of money with credit card bills and car repairs. I'm not spending more living out of the house, it's just the way it is. I'm sure you are also running out of money. We need to do something before it's too late - before something cruddy happens. Anyway, give me a call or have Sara call me."

Why does he have a one-track mind with this?? Why can't he admit to me his wrong doing, say he wants to heal the M?? At that point, maybe I would be willing to help him with his finances.

He is still fogged out. He can't see the path to right this wrong. What good is pushing financial issues going to do with me right now?? None. I can't even think about that. I'm fine for now with $$. I can work more hours if I need to.

Kim

Hi Lem - So, you are correct. What was on the voice mail was exactly what I suspected. I guess there was a smidgen of hope that he would leave a message & FOR ONCE not mention refinancing. FOR ONCE, mention that he wanted to do what was right.

I do wish you a Merry Christmas. I know I am going to have one!! I have the Christmas tree up, the outside lights up & presents have been purchased. DS & I got the tree up all by ourselves!! And it's a pretty one.

Just trying to spread a bit of joy your way!! I'm not letting this get me down.

Take care Lem....

Kim

Kim,

Let him eat cake (without a cent from refinancing). Ignore him.

Kim,

I agree actually with much of what LM said..

Your WH KNOWS WHAT HE NEEDS TO DO and IS NOT READY...

However, I think it's human nature to HOPE it were different..that's a way of COPING with this...

Also, in coping with this tragedy, it helps to have the support of those on this forum. Don't you think? The folks on here certainly HELPED me..because in my state I found it hard to think straight..

You should have seen the specific questions that I asked 2 years ago..

This forum is no different, IMHO...

Don't you think the knowledge that it was really about the refinancing helps you? Well, that's the way my mind works. I need to KNOW or I would have wondered...


Hang in there, Kim...

Sounds like you are planning a GREAT CHRISTMAS...

Kim:

I don't take any "joy" in being right about this. It is all very very predictable. You can smell a rat a mile away. I also could "smell" you looking for a "fix", you looking for "hope" any way you could get it. That is ok (having hope), we all need "hope", but NOT at the expense of REALITY.

I just hate to see you take steps back in your personal recovery. I know that there are ****some**** people who's ultimate measure of Plan B success was/is getting their cheating husbands back and that the "personal" growth along the way was just a nice side benefit. That's ok, but I was hoping more for you.

Maybe I am too personally "banked" on you recovering (yourself PRIMARILY), who knows? I will have to look at that one a little. Some self introspection may be required.

I have to be honest with you, I am souring on this place alot lately. It has IMVHO (personal) become a breeding ground for "enabling"....just my own opinion. I am no doubt in the minority again on this...so what? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Your story and struggles and victories keeps me checking in.

I hope you give your DS a great X-mas. I trust that you will.

I don't know if you will ever get your Cheating Husband to come back to you, but I do hope and pray that you ONE day get the peace and salvation you deserve in this life.

You still have some "getting it" to do. Again, that's ok, we all do. You'll learn from this.

I would advise you to go back on the "diet". You took your "cheat" day. You got your taste of the fudge cake. I trust you know what to do next. And if not, I am sure there is an "expert" who can help you along the way.

Merry X-mas to you and your family.

I am taking my brother and family, sister and family, and parents on a caribbean cruise for the holidays (leave late next week), so I won't be around. Maybe I will eat some more of that crow you and Lane served up to me a few months ago (I froze some <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) to prepare my Intestines for the plethora of starchy and processed food that I am sure to comsume in large quantities.

Lemonman <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

BigKahuna - thanks for checking in & for your support. I don't plan on moving one step forward with helping him financially right now.

Also, in coping with this tragedy, it helps to have the support of those on this forum. Don't you think? The folks on here certainly HELPED me..because in my state I found it hard to think straight..

Sometimes your mind does start spinning in a whirlwind fashion. I do find the support on this forum a godsend. I don't know where I would be with out!!!!!!!! There is always hope that a message will be what you wish. In the back of my mind, though I did know what it was going to be about. I would have probably always wondered if I just deleted it though. This just reinforces that he is not ready.

Mimi, I am going to have a wonderful Christmas. Lem doesn't realize how much at peace I am with this right now.

Lem - I know you think I took a couple of steps back by listening to the voice mail. Curiosity killed the cat, huh? I have really been doing well lately and I know I need to continue on my road of self-recovery. This has really been coming out at my job lately & my boss has surely noticed. I know you are rooting for me & I am going to continue on finding ME. Taking care of ME and DS. I just don't feel like I cheated........

Hey, you have a safe trip - Enjoy your family and your time away from work(if you can, I know how much you love it!)

Lem, I'm really feeling happy - happy about me and how I'm getting along without WH. I love my H. He should show up soon.....

Kim

Kim, I couldn't have coped without this site and these forums. They have helped me just so much.

Have a blessed happy Christmas.

OK, Kim sounds good.

PLease help me with something though. You say that you would " have probably always wondered if I just deleted it though" in referring to the voice mail your cheater sent you. OK, I can understand TO A POINT.

So tell me, what will be different when he predictably emails you or sends you another voice mail next week or next month. Won't you "wonder" then? What will be different then?

You see, too me, IT IS ALL THE SAME without the NC letter and complete committment to NC and marital recovery. You have already told your WH what was necessary for recovery. He knows what to do. What is it that you were wondering about?

He simply reinforced WHAT YOU ALREADY KNEW.

I guess I am just a little slower than most here. That's ok, I am accepting of that.

When I have a patient WHO I know has lung cancer, I DON'T do another Cat Scan to make sure it is "still there" when I have not given him Chemo or resected the tumor surgically. I fail to see what is different in your situation.

No need to argue or try to "prove" me wrong. You have your reasons and seem ok with it. SO that is all that matters.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />