Lots of activity on this thread now.<P>PodPerson:<P>Please, stop generalizing about all of us. Are you not paying attention? Nobody is trying to make you think you are less of a person than they are. The "creep" thread was somebody else's attempt to find out what the heck is going on with betrayers. Poor choice of words, I guess, but if you read the thread, you saw the clarification.<P>Why do you insist on pigeon holing the words some people use into generalizations about you?<P>I happen to believe that somebody who gives the silent treatment to their spouse IS being a creep. I also think that someone who has an affair and feels NO remorse about it is a creep too.<P>Your statements seem to be conflicting. You say you feel no remorse about the affair, but then say that it's a shame it had to come to that to get your H back to the way he used to be.<P>Doesn't that mean you KNOW, in your heart that it was a mistake?<P>You're not making a lot of sense right now, and I think it's because you're worked up with anger. There's nothing wrong with being angry about your marital situation. Anger can be constructive, but you have to VENT it in a healthy way. Coming here and provoking others isn't the best way, IMHO. It just leaves you open to attack from people with hurt feelings, and that puts YOU on the defensive, creating MORE anger and stress.<P>Let us help you. Don't generalize. If you see something you don't like, don't say "you all say this or that," point out WHO said it so that person can clarify or engage in dialogue with you.<P>Please, post intelligently. <P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Covenant,<P>THANK YOU. I hope your wife gives you another chance. You sound like a good person at heart. I wish more people on this forum would post like you have, then maybe MY feathers wouldn't get so ruffled. I come here for help and insight, not to be talked down to like I am some child. I am an adult, and I made adult decisions based on my own life and experience. Point blank. At least I am not hiding behind anything. I fully admit what I've done and I take responsibility for it. And, I CAN LIVE WITH IT. I'm not going to beat on myself, and I'm not going to let anyone else beat me either.<P>Lone Star,<P>Look, you asked me "Aren't you even the least bit sorry that you felt you had to resort to<BR>breaking your marriage vows to get your H's attention?" Yes, I AM sorry that I had to resort to breaking my marriage vows to get my H's attention. Very sorry. And HE'S sorry that he broke his marriage vows for so long too. But, that is different than me trying to say that REGARDLESS of him breaking marriage vows for MANY YEARS, I am more of an "immoral sinner" for breaking mine. Nope. Sorry. I don't feel that way.<P>People make choices based on their situations and experiences. I'm sorry that our marriage was so piss-poor for so long, that's what I'm mostly sorry about. Now it's time to fix things, not sit around and talk about how low of a person I sunk to be.<P>And Chris, my husband doesn't call me a creep and isn't self-righteous at all. He knows the deal because he was right here living the life with me. He knows how many nights I cried myself to sleep because he was laying right beside me. So, there's no need for me to replay it for him. He wants to fix things now, and I'm glad. We wasted a lot of time. He knows that if he had agreed to counseling 10 years ago when I first asked, more than likely none of this would have happened. So, no, there's no need for me to rub anything in his face. <p>[This message has been edited by PodPerson (edited September 28, 1999).]

Podperson,<BR>From the tone of your posts, you sound like you have become your H (based on your description of H.)<P>I have peace but my pain is not gone. There is a difference. Peace comes only through having a deep intimate relationship with Jesus. It is because of my relationship with Him that I am able to understand why my W did what she did. I don't blame her because she did not understand that she has to work with me. We have to agree even when it means that we agree that we will disagree on a particular topic or point. It takes team work as she is continually telling me, yet she is not showing any signs of wanting to be on the team. She only wants to control the situation regardless of who gets hurt as long as it is not her.<P>It is not fair of you to make a generalization based on the posts of one or two people who are angry because they are angry at themselves rather than the people who they lash out at. Yes, when someone lashes out, it is because they are angry with something that they have done. My W got upset with our boys the other night because they are showing signs of her behavior. I have even caught myself doing lashing out at someone for behavior that I was exhibiting. It is a self defense mechanism that God built into how our body's operate.<P>I came here because my W won't discuss any of what has happened. I am here to learn how to approach her to let her know that I still love her unconditionally just as God loves her unconditionally. It is not a victim party because there are other betrayers here who also are wanting to heal just as you are.<P>We are not asking you to grovel before us. Yet, for you to receive the forgiveness that you desire, you must also ask your H for forgiveness. Your pain will not go away until you have his forgiveness. It will gnaw away at you until you know that you have it. It is apart of God's forgiveness. Don't have the scripture right now but it concerns having an issue with your brother (anyone in general).<P>Praying for you and your family. MONDO HUG!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Lone Star,<P>Please don't resort to any superiority. If you find my posts unintelligable, then by all means, pass them by. Yes, I AM worked up right now, and mostly because I see alot of hipocrisy on this forum. You all say that you want to rebuild, but what I see is many of you (and no, I'm not going to go through each post word for word and name names) don't practice what you preach. No matter what caused the marriage problems to come to the forefront, what does it matter? If there were problems there, then the problems NEEDED to come out. I'm quite sure that most of you were told by your spouses that they weren't happy or that things needed to change. Okay, maybe a few of you that wasn't the case. But for the majority, for whatever reason, things didn't change. Maybe you didn't hear them. Maybe they didn't communicate it to you in the right way. Maybe you weren't listening. Maybe they weren't listening to you. But, for some reason some people want to now act so shocked that their spouse was so unhappy and unfulfilled.<P>My H knows that I pleaded with him to get counseling. He knows I told him repeatedly that I was unhappy. And thank god he doesn't try to deny it. He also doesn't say, "yeah, but even though I did all that, you still shouldn't have had an affair. How could you?" No, you know what he says? He says, "serves me right for treating you so badly." That's what he says. Big difference. <P>And I will retract saying I would do it again. That was wrong and that was also a lie. I won't do it again because never again will I put up with being mistreated like that. I was a stupid idiot for putting up with it as long as I did. Never again. So, I'll change that phrase to, if my husband ever starts acting like a [censored] again, I'M GONE. <P>But I don't think that's going to happen. It looks like he finally gets it.<P>Rob,<P>You sound like a nice person too. Maybe one day I will be able to ask my H for forgiveness, but I'm not there yet. He's asked me for mine, and I know I also have not fully forgiven him yet either. We aren't perfect, obviously, so God isn't finished with us yet. <P>I have asked God for His forgiveness and have received it, so I am at peace with that. <p>[This message has been edited by PodPerson (edited September 28, 1999).]

Podperson,<P>I do know how you feel. There was a short period where I did not feel repentant either. I finally confessed about 6 months after my affair ended because it was the only hope I had for our marriage then. It took me that long to figure out exactly why I did what I did, and form a plan to make our marriage better. I was extremely repentant, but my H's abuse turned that repentance into something else. He too thought he was a saint simply because he didn't have sex with someone else, although he did take another woman on a week long vacation and stayed in the same room with her. But hey, his you-know-what wasn't in any of her you-know-wheres, so that's not cheating. Right. He refused counseling, either individually or together. Never mind all the awful things he said to me, the way he talked down to me (BEFORE the affair). This is a man who told me to go jump off a bridge when I was crying on my hands and knees begging for forgiveness. This is a man who called me every disgusting name in the book. Never mind that I told him zillions of times how much his criticism hurt me (before the affair). He ended up divorcing me. Mainly because he was too pig-headed to take responsibility for his part in the failure of our marriage and because he had some kind of "moral imperative" to leave. Having said all of that, I STILL WISH I NEVER HAD AN AFFAIR. I could have retained some self-respect if I had just left. His behavior did not justify my cheating, nor did my cheating justify his flagrant abuse.<P>When someone cheats in an otherwise long-term, monogamous relationship, I too believe that it is only a SYMPTOM of the problems, not the cause of them. And both people are responsible for the problems. I've often reminded people here of the OTHER vows in the marriage: to love and cherish, for better or worse, sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, and oh, yea, till death do us part. <P>My guess is that your anger is masking some very, very real pain built up over the years, and maybe even some guilt that your pain has pulled you down to a place where you thought you'd never go. But maybe you are afraid that if you feel some repentance or show it to your husband, then he will treat you even worse? This IS the time he gets to show you what he is made of, for better or worse. This is your chance too.

I'm really sorry things went so wrong in your<BR>marriage.<BR>Personally I think there are better ways to fix a marriage than to have an affair. Playing with people's lives and feelings never accomplishes anything constructive. From what you wrote, it doesn't sound like there is anything your husband can do to make you happy being married to him anymore. Anything nice he does now will be because he better do it, or else. You're going to make him work doubly hard to gain back less than one half of one percent of any feelings you still may have for him, and you still may dump him if the mood strikes your fancy.<BR>It's easier to cast blame on the other party than accept that wrong is wrong is wrong. If you aren't sorry about your affair now, you never will be. Punishing your husband won't ever alleviate the wrong that's been done.<BR>Also sounds like you really do want a divorce, but are going to make your husband so miserable that he'll initiate the proceedings, that way he'll have to pay for it and not you.<BR>As far as being self righteous, the main issue here is that not one of us who were betrayed had any idea what was going on, I was kept completely in the dark about what was happening behind my back. Upon discovery, I was deeply hurt and angry, and justifiably so. I was at an unfair advantage during that whole hidden year, because I had no idea what was going on, therefore I had no idea what it was exactly that needed fixing. By not letting your h know what you were doing, you weren't giving him a fair chance to start fixing things a lot sooner.<BR>I feel sorry for the other man if you hook up with him, if he sneezes without saying excuse me his bags will be packed before he has a chance to reach for the kleenex.<BR>

Tendervittles,<P>WHATEVER! You don't know me. Obviously you haven't read my posts on this thread. And Lone Star says I need to post intelligently? No, I don't feel repentent now, but thanks for slamming the door shut completely and saying "I never will." Are you God? The all powerful, all knowing? Now THAT'S what I mean by SELF-RIGHTEOUS. Lone Star, how's that for an example?<P>The Student,<P>What you say makes a great deal of sense. Thank you so much for posting to me. It does sound like you understand how I feel. Would it be possible for us to correspond through email?

Podperson:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Please don't resort to any superiority.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Please point to the exact words I used to indicate that I am superior to you. That was never my intention. When I asked you to post intelligently (not intelligibly, by the way), I simply meant that I would like you to think before posting and post consistently.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You all say that you want to rebuild, but what I see is many of you (and no, I'm not going to go through each post word for word and name names) don't practice what you preach. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Am I not practicing what I preach? Please enlighten me, because I haven't seen that. Please provide me with examples of others who are not practicing what they preach. If there are some there, I need to know what you are talking about to be able to speak intelligently with you about this issue.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>No matter what caused the marriage problems to come to the forefront, what does it matter?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It does matter. It is never right to approach a problem by creating another, bigger problem. I will grant you that your affair CERTAINLY got your H's attention. Good for you. Now, however, not only do you have to deal with getting over your anger and mistrust of HIM, he has to deal with getting over anger and mistrust of YOU. In addition, if you DO resolve things, you are eventually going to feel the guilt for what you've done. It will NOT be a fun ride, I assure you. Furthermore, you broke God's sacred sacrament of marriage. Does this make you feel proud? Clearly it does not.<P>I think it makes a VERY big difference how problems come out. If I had had the foresight and consideration to seek counseling for my wife and me BEFORE the affair, maybe it wouldn't have happened. If she had had the guts to come to me and say "Lone Star, I'm feeling attracted to another man, we NEED to talk about it and seek counseling about it," I bet I would have been willing to try.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He also doesn't say, "yeah, but even though I did all that, you still shouldn't have had an affair. How could you?" No, you know what he says? He says, "serves me right for treating you so badly."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's really too bad, because nothing he did to you justifies your affair. Yeah, he treated you like crap, but again, I go back to the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right." You didn't "fix" him, you compounded the problem. Perhaps he got a taste of his own medicine, but in my opinion, it's just gonna make your recovery harder. You want honest opinions, that's mine.<P>Hope you'll think a little bit and put the 'tude back in your pocket.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Hi Pod!<BR>I think I understand what you are saying in your post. It's like it takes something so drastic as this to get your H to wake up and see you. I don't know if I believe that you are really "happy" about the affair, that you think it's OK to cheat, as some have implied. That really isnt' what you said. You just said that you really aren't sorry. That's OK too. Right now it sounds like you have a very hard heart. That happens to us betrayers. I think it's how we cope. I think that someday, if things get better between you and your H you will feel remorse. Maybe not. It really isn't the point. It's not a prerequisite that all betrayers that post here are remorseful. I agree that there are some betrayed that feel that they are superior than the betrayer. That's how they cope. There are some that will spout Christianity, ( not many, but a few) and in the same breath wish death or worse on the OP in their situation. Doesn't make a lot of sense. I've read some threads that are so smug from the betrayed that my only reaction is, " I bet you're a real joy to live with. No wonder he cheated." My OM's wife was that way. Anytime he disagreed with her opinion, she'd cut him down to size. Right off at the knees. She was NEVER wrong! <P>I understand why you stayed in your marriage, but chose an affair. That's not so strange. There must be something salvageable there or you would not have stayed and you wouldn't be here. The betrayed aren't the only ones entitled to their anger, their hate. They aren't the only ones in an affair that get hurt. It's hard for someone betrayed to think of a betrayer as human. Only those here that have been both betrayed and betrayer are able to fully understand both sides. An affair is a complicated thing. No one can say that they would NEVER cheat. It happens to the best of us. Good, godly people fall everyday. That is why we need a Savior. We are all imperfect, subject to temptations. None of us should attack the other because of their faults. No one should imagine themselves incapable of falling as far. <BR>Pod, I hope that you can deal with your anger. Maybe you said this already, but how long has it been since your affair ended? Is this new for you? It takes awhile to feel remorse. I'm sure you're not a PodPerson. You obviously need love and acceptance like the rest of us, or there would have been no "need" for the affair. And it's PAINFUL to feel sorry, or remorseful. It is also part of the healing process. Experience it on your own time. Good luck to you. And there is some good things on this board. Just take what you need from here,and leave the rest. Sometimes what is said is no more than people unimagineable pain, trying to make sense. As wrong as someone may be, NO ONE deserves to experience this type of pain and betrayal. I know you know that. I know that deep down, you would have rather done something different to get you H's attention. Sounds like you tried. No it wasn't right, it wasn't OK. But an affair is pretty potent medicine, when you are hurting. Almost like an illegal narcotic. It's against the law, but that doesn't stop people from doing it. And it sure feels good while you're on that trip. It's the coming down that's hard. Glad you're here.<BR>

Pod, ol' buddy ol' pal .... perhaps it's time to get off the computer, slam a couple of Ding Dongs and take a shower ...<P>You really really are upset at the WRONG people. None of us screwed up your marriage ... we all got a mess of our own that we're dealing with. No one has claimed to be better than you ... we just cannot understand your attitude right now.<P>We really are easy to get along with. And if you don't like what you see, then DON'T read it -- and DON'T respond to it. I find Carlton and D99 highly offensive in their attitudes .... D99 hasn't made one single step forward since he's been here, which has been like 118 years it seems. Therefore I don't read what they post, or I read and shake me head and not post, or I take a stab with sarcasam. (that is just my personality and it's gotten me in trouble MORE than once) <P>You're new, your wounds are fresh. If you give us AND YOUR H AND YOURSELF a chance, I know you can be happy again!<P>I am confident that in a few short months your situation will be totally different and you will be looking at yourself and your H with new eyes!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 28, 1999).]

Trimmi,<P>Thank you so much for your post. Between what you, The Student, covenant and Professorg have said, I have alot to think about tonight. I don't know where the future will lead my husband and me. I hope it's somewhere good this time. I know that I am going to try like mad to keep us on the right course. I'm glad that now I have my husband's cooperation this time. Last year I felt like my life was literally over. The thought of never feeling loved again sunk me lower than I ever felt. Maybe it was also the turning 40 thing, but I don't know. If my husband and I can rekindle our love, I'm willing to try. But one person can't save a marriage. I needed his help, and now I have it. I'm not going to question anything else. He and I have wasted too much time already.<P>Maya, <P>I have a question for you. What if you posted something with alot of emotion, be it anger, pain, or whatever, and someone responded to your post that you should just "get off the computer and eat a twinkie," how would you feel? You have a very sarcastic attitude but I bet I'm not the first person to tell you that. As Lone Star asked me, do you think before you hit "submit reply?" <P>I'm not looking for any quick fix. If one day I am filled with incredible remorse because my husband is treating me SO WELL, then I CAN'T WAIT! He's doing a much better job now, and it has only been 3 months, so time will tell. I HOPE one day I can look back on all this and say, "well, he treated me like crap for 20 years, but he treated me like gold for the next 20." That would be nice. But, that is as much up to him as it is to me. I'm game if he's game. We both are, so time will tell.<P>Lone Star,<P>Thanks for correcting my grammar. I don't profess to be an english major. And I'm sorry if my story is too disjointed for you to comprehend. I will try to do better. Oh, and also thank you for telling me how much MORE difficult my rebuilding will be now that I have had an affair. So full of hope! Funny thing is, there would be NO REBUILDING had it not been for my affair. And as far as it being a shame how my husband feels, that is something that maybe you should take up with him. Personally, I think the fact that he isn't saying, "how could you?" will make us heal better. But maybe that's just me.

podperson, you go girl. i admire your courage and that let'um have it attitude.<BR>you just about have your cake and have eaten it too.<BR>don't let any of the keepers of the rule book make you feel bad. no matter what you do or did, if it felt good, they would criticise you for it.<BR>i often wonder how it is so many people, especially women, can stay in marriages in which all they get is crap.<BR>demand your fair share of satisfaction out of life because you deserve it.<BR> good luck and hang in there

podperson, i would be willing to chat thru email if you like. i was abusive towards my wife alos- verbally, not communicating, listening, talking, not treating her with respect, honor, and dignity. i am currentlyinvolved in a domestic violence program to unlearn my behavior. guess i hoped she be there when the sun came out again. rrinkes@yahoo. feel free. i have alot of pain. sharing it seems to make it lessen. thanks.

See me with my hands in the air ....<P>I GIVE UP.

Hey Pod...<P>If frankie's agreeing with you, that's pretty much the only indicator you need that what you are doing is wrong.<P>Unless D99 or Carlton agree too. At least frankie’s managed to pull his head out once or twice.<P>Agree with Maya though... you’re mad at the wrong people. Try reading THAT part of the post, instead of keying on sugary snack foods! <P>(FWIW, Pod... I think my affair might just have saved my marriage too... wake-up call for us both and all. Not that I’d ever recommend it as marital therapy...)<BR>

Well Pod, I guess I could say - Ditto, Ditto, Ditto to everything posted in here. However, let me just say this. <P>I feel for you in having a H that treated you like crap. That stinks! It was like that with my realtinship also. The difference was my H had the affair not me. <P>You also have to realize that there is a great deal of emotion floating around on this board - because Infidelity is one of the worst painful situations you can thru in your life. That is why the general population believes that only a creep could commit adulty. We all view that the ideal situation would be for everyone to have a "perfect marriage." When that is not the case and you try to get your spouse to work things out and they won't - you leave. It sounds like if your relationship was as bad as you say it was - then 20 years is a long time to put up with someone else's crap. The answer was not an affair. Maybe you can fix your relationship now, but maybe if you had left him that would have opened his eyes too. If not, you would both have moved on. <P>You need to understand that you having an affair was wrong even if it got him to listen to you. It is just wrong. However, I hope that you and your H are able to move on and fix your relationship. I wish my H and I could.<P>Good luck !!!<P>PS - Please loose some of the anger and realize that we are all hurting including you. Infidelity is a sin - it is wrong. Anger doesn't help you. Please for the sake of your marriage and this forum - loose it. Those of us with unfaithful spouses need the perspective of people who have walked in your shoes - just without the anger. <BR><P>------------------<BR>H

Podperson,<P>I guess I've avoided this thread for too long, so here goes. I guess I'm trying to figure out are you angry at your H, or at people on this forum? That's the confusion I see. If your H did all these horrible things in the past, and he is now sorry for them and has agreed to counseling and to change, then I do think that if you have it in your heart to forgive his past behavior, you will make it. But only if you both can forgive and move on. <P>I'm in the good position of being both betrayed and betrayer, so I hope you accept this coming from me when I say that being betrayed by your spouse is a horrible, horrible thing. But, I'm not going to try to tell you that some of the things you described that were going on in your marriage (silent treatment, crying yourself to sleep, etc) is not as bad. How in the world would I know that? I haven't lived your life, just like you haven't lived mine. There is no way for us to compare pains. That said, with the slate wiped clean, I hope you will one day see that forgiveness is going to be key in saving your marriage. It can be done.<P>But, I get a sense that you're mad at people here on the forum. Let me guess, Elixir's thread ticked you off too? Throw in the extra added bonus of D99 and there you have it! There is hypocrisy on this board at times, I have to agree with you. I've even been accused of being "unremorseful" too when I've tried to explain "how" I was able to have an affair. But there are many people who understand and are here to offer non-judgemental insight and support. Don't hold the angry, hateful and judgemental stuff against everyone. Most people on this forum are cool.. <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Podperson,<P>I sure wish you wouldn't lump all the betrayed in one big pile. Everyone has a different situation...just like you! I refuse to take any responsibility whatsoever for what my H did. While I was at home changing dirty diapers on our baby he was taking WAY YOUNGER woman on a trip and having his fun. NOTHING I did made him make his choices!!!! I did not fail my spouse as you so bluntly put it. And YES I AM A BETTER PERSON THAN MY H. I had plenty of opportunities to turn flirting into a full fledge affair I chose differently! I put my marriage and my family first.....SO I WILL TAKE THE FULL CREDIT BEING A BETTER PERSON THAN YOU! I would have left before I would have done what you did.......AND JUST THE WAY YOU TALK...I wonder if it was a married man that you cheated with....I can hear it now both of your sob stories back and forth feeling sorry for each other right before you jumped into bed together...talk about poor me....it's not the people here that sound like that it's YOU<P>GOOD LUCK

podperson,<BR>Alot of the people here (both betrayed and betrayer) have good things to say. I know what it is like to be in a pit of despair and have someone else there in the wrong place, at the wrong time, showing you what seems to be the light out. Then you find out that light is really a blow-torch and you are set on fire instead of being saved. One of my favorite lines from an Ani di Franco song goes "a little bird told me that jumping is easy, that falling is fun. Right up till you hit the sidewalk, shivering and stunned". I think you know that only constructive actions on both of your parts will save your marriage now. Destructive behavior can only make a bad situation worse, as lonestar suggested. You can email me at danars@bellsouth.net if you need to talk somemore.

PodPerson:<P>I think I've been fairly nice up until now, but you're being a MAJOR jerk right now. Why can't you accept a little friendly help without assuming everybody's out to get you? Personally, I don't care if you stick around or not now. I've tried to be nice and offer helpful suggestions. I've politely asked you to give concrete examples of your generalizations so that I can understand what you're talking about. I corrected a perceived misconception on your part (intelligible v. intelligent - there is a difference). No malice was intended.<P>Apparently, however, EVERYBODY who disagrees with you, who points out an inconsistency of yours, or who has anything to tell you that is not 100% in agreement with you is out to get you, put you down, or stomp on your marriage.<P>I guess you like having a doormat for a husband. Can't say I blame you given the way you claim to have been treated by him in the past. Looks like you put him in his "proper" place, and now YOU'VE got the upper hand. Don't expect him to stay there for long. Your diatribe has worn thin HERE in only a couple of hours.<P>Sorry if you don't like what I have to say, but you're gonna find out the hard way, and I guess that's your right.<P>Thanks for reminding me that MOST of the people on this board could be a heck of a lot worse than they are. They could be venomous, incorrigible jerks like you.<P>Good luck in healing your marriage. You're gonna need it.<P>----<P>Frankie:<P>Once again, you're being an idiot. You two deserve each other. Go start your own board.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited September 28, 1999).]