Yes, I'm another one of those creeps, as some of you consider us. My husband treated me like crap for 20 years, never paying attention to any of my needs. He wouldn't agree to counseling. Who HIM? HE didn't have a problem, I DID. Why should HE have to go? He refused to consider making any changes. He refused to talk to me. He refused to listen to me. He treated me like his maid, his caretaker, his sexual slave. He never cared if I got anything out of the sex or not. He got his needs taken care of, and left me laying there night after night. Why didn't I leave him you ask? For the same reason he didn't leave me. We both felt stuck together and figured, "oh well, what's the use."<P>Well, darn right, after a while I got real sick of this. And somebody else started listening to me, talking to me and making me feel good. This man cared for me and cared about MY FEELINGS. I fell in love with him. And now that my husband has found out, all of a sudden he is all broken up about it. He asks me "how could I?" Well, I could just like HE COULD treat me like crap for so long. Oh, he's paying attention to me now, but if I hadn't had an affair, he'd STILL be treating me like crap. Well, he is sure listening to me now. Oh, and he has finally, AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, agreed to attend counseling too. Hmmmm, go figure. <P>It's unreal how self righteous, holier than thou some of you people on this forum are. As if none of you have ever sinned in your lives. As if none of you have ever made any mistakes in your lives. As if any of you have ever walked in anyone else's shoes. You are probably showing that same stone-headed, stubborn attitude that you showed your spouses who cheated on you. Very few people cheat "just because." Most people cheat after living years with a spouse who treats them like crap. Well, blast away all you want. I'M GLAD I DID IT, and I would do it again in a heartbeat. He didn't listen but oh boy he's listening now. And sure, I'll give him another chance but if he becomes a [censored] again, I'll do it again.<P>Now, how's that for truth?

Everyone is entitled to their life and I'm sure you must have had much pain in your life.<P>It does not sound like there is much peace and joy in your heart or if you are even working towards that goal.<P>I hope your heart is softened and you do find hope and peace.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Yes, it may be truth...your truth, but it still doesn't make it right. You want your cake and eat it too.<P>It doesn't even sound like you are staying for financial reasons. So why DO you stay?<P>We're also hearing only one side of the story. Before making an evaluation of your situation, I'd want to hear the other side too.<P>You know, I'm a pretty darn good wife. Most of my friends say they'd NEVER cater to a man the way I do. But still, there are things I do that tick him off. I'm chronically anxious, I talk too much, for years I took him for granted, assuming he'd just be sitting on the couch while I went out; never gave him input into decisions. He never complained.<P>But you know what? For the most part (and it's not yet perfect, by any stretch), by changing MY behavior, I've changed his. He never ever bought me jewelry for anything; this year he got me earrings for my birthday and a necklace for our anniversary. Our sex life is better than ever. Overall, we're closer.<P>Maybe you're right. Maybe your H is the selfish nothing you say he is. But you know what? Even if you're right, that's the booby prize. What does it get you?<P>It seems silly to me for you to stay in a marriage that's so awful. Why not show some courage and either work on the marriage or end it...for both of your sake's.<P>Then you'll either have a better marriage or be free to find someone else.<P>It's one thing to make a mistake, as many of the betrayers here acknowledge. But to be completely unrepentant about it, well, it just strikes me as chickens**t to stay.

PodPerson,<BR>As FHL has said you appear to have no peace. I agree with her. Two wrongs never make a right. None of us claims to be self righteous. ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. ALL will continue to sin until Satan is relinquished of his powers. No we do not blame you for what you did. Both you and your H were not communicating effectively. It is the lack of effective communication about our needs and wants (which are based on stories that only paint a glorious picture that will never be achieved) that leads to affairs. It is the nature of being human and not being able to see more of the picture.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited September 28, 1999).]

Have you met Carlton? He's unrepentant too. You all can compare notes.

Never mind<p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited September 28, 1999).]

PodPerson:<P>Well, I was gonna reply with a bunch of "shoulds" and "how could you's", but really, I don't think it would do anything except tick you off.<P>Let me just leave you with these thoughts.<P>1) This is a marriage BUILDERS board. If you're not interested in saving a marriage, then I don't think you belong here.<P>2) No matter HOW badly you're treated in a marriage, the Golden Rule STILL applies. You treat others the way you WANT to be treated.<P>3) If your H won't work with you to help save your marriage, you're better off getting out of it than having an affair. It is NEVER right in the eyes of God to break your marriage vows.<P>I hope you'll reconsider your position. I understand your anger, but I do NOT agree with your solution.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>Oh yeah, and as for MOST affairs? I'd like to see your statistics on the "years of being treated like crap." FYI, my wife and I were married only 3 1/2 years before her affair. I treated her like a queen. She had an affair when, for 8 weeks, I was stretched to the limit because I was studying for the bar exam. I knew she was getting short shrift from me for that time, but it was unavoidable at the time. <P>If you needed to have an affair to wake your H up, then clearly BOTH of you had serious communication problems in your marriage. While the affair probably did the trick, don't expect him to be so understanding if you resort to that type of extreme behavior again in the future.<P>I feel sorry for you. You have no idea how ridiculous your logic is in this regard.<P>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited September 28, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited September 28, 1999).]

Perhaps you should go steal a car. They are so high priced now it's outrageous! And after all, you deserve it! The auto companies are just money gougers.<P>There is no justifiable reason to have an affair. There is no justifiable reason for your H to treat you like crap either. But as we are always told, two wrongs don't make a right. You want help. We'll give it to you if you are open to our thoughts.<P><P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

Lone Star, well said, but I hope PodPerson stays. Jesus said that the world hated him and it would hate us also. I'm not offened by PodPerson and forgive because she doesn't understand what she's saying. No one here is acting or talking self-righteous that I have seen, for we all know as Christians who is the righteousness one. Not ourselves, we have all sinned, but we know the truth of the light, darkness cannot comprehend it. Truth sets us free, we welcome all to that truth, his name is Jesus! Please stay Pod, God loves you and so do we! Blessings, peace and love, Ginn

Ginn:<P>I don't hate PodPerson. I feel sorry for her. I, too, hope she stays so she can learn that this kind of behavior isn't healthy for her relationship with her H (even if it got her what she wanted this time).<P>I doubt, however, that I will be posting to her again until she learns to deal with the hatred and anger (and her OWN self-righteousness).<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Podperson, it is apparent that you are very angry at your husband.<P>Let me ask you something -- are you willing to work on your marriage now for real? Because not only does your husband need to change, but so do you. It takes two to make it work. I understand that you've been mistreated for alot of years and there is alot of anger and resentment built up. Do you think it will be worth it to save your marriage? If so, then I would suggest that you read all the material on this website. Also, look into the book "His Needs Her Needs". This site is fantastic for helping to rebuild a marriage. But you need to let go of your anger towards your husband. What do you really want to do right now? Get a good marriage back? Or continue to punish your husband?<P>Hopefully you're reading this far after all the nasty remarks you've gotten... I'm not judging you because you are a betrayer, I am one too. But you have got to make a commitment to marriageBUILD. That's what this site is all about!<P>--andy

No, I'm not "at peace," YET. Just like a lot of you, I have a lot of pain and anger inside of me. This is not EASY. And just because you all think I'm some creep who doesn't deserve to be angry or feel pain, too bad. Yes, this IS marriagebuilders, and finally I have a husband who is WILLING to shut his big mouth and LISTEN to what it takes to have a good marriage. FOR YEARS, he did the complete opposite. He was pig-headed, stubborn and REFUSED to go to counseling or do anything to make things right between us.<P>So, I AM all for rebuilding, are you? Is this forum really for rebuilding marriages or is it a place for people stuck on playing the victim? Because that's what it sounds like to me. I cannot believe the self-righteous attitudes of so many people here. <P>You say "do unto others?" Well, what about my husband? Did he do unto me in the way he'd want to be treated? No, he didn't. He treated me like crap and guess what, HE GOT TREATED LIKE CRAP TOO. Oh, so I guess that ignoring your spouse, sometimes giving them the silent treatment for days on end, not caring if they wanted sex or not, not spending any time to get to know their friends, not sharing any activities with them, are so much better than having an affair! Yeah right. Sorry, I'm not buying that. You're right, two wrongs DON'T make a right, and you know what, neither wrong is any better or any worse than the other.<P>You people are so stuck in believing that just because you did not cheat, you are better than your spouses. Well, wake up. Most of you have made BIG MISTAKES in your marriage too. Most of you have failed your spouses too. Oh, but you didn't cheat, god forbid! Well, that would make you a creep and scum like us. Give me a break! That is the type of self-righteous attitude I'm talking about. <P>And oh, Maya, you give me a break too. You cheated, but oh, you say you're sorry for it and that you ended it ONLY because you know that's what God wants, and that makes you BETTER THAN ME? Unreal! <P>I have sinned, and I have asked God for forgiveness for committing the sin of adultery. But that has NOTHING to do with me groveling to all you people, or to my husband either. I won't. He knows exactly what happened in this marriage, because he was here. That's why he is sitting around feeling sorry for himself like some of you here. He KNOWS he screwed up, screwed up royal, and he takes responsibility for that just like I take responsibility for what I've done. I did it, and that's that. It was wrong, but my husband was also wrong to treat me so badly for so long. He understands that, why is it so difficult for all of you to? If he tried to punish me the way so many of you are doing here, he'd be left in a New York minute.

PodPerson, <P>You not only come across as unrepentant but you seem to enjoy rubbing his nose in it. You've stabbed him in the heart with the infidelity dagger and are heaping on the salt bucket. Are you satisfied now that you have your revenge? Has he ALWAYS treated you like crap? I mean 20 years of nothing but crap? Why in the world did you marry this guy? Why give him another chance? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's unreal how self righteous, holier than thou some of you people on this forum are. As if none of you have ever sinned in your lives.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh, I have sinned. I neglected my wife. I paid the penalty with the infidelity dagger in my heart, thank god she didn't get out the salt bucket to make it worse.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As if none of you have ever made any mistakes in your lives.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Are you saying what YOU did was a mistake?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You are probably showing that same stone-headed, stubborn attitude that you showed your spouses who cheated on you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, I'm not. My wife isn't either. We have both changed. We are both recovering. We both lost sight of our marriage. Neither of us did what we did with revenge in our mind. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'M GLAD I DID IT, and I would do it again in a heartbeat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>interesting choice of words. A hardened heart will make recovery impossible for you and your husband. If you are going to dangle the infidelity dagger over his heart for further retribution, I say go ahead and divorce. Nobody wants to be married to someone like that.<P>If you are here for help, you will find it. If you are here to antagonize others, then your stay will be short.<P>SHA

I said NOTHING about being better than you. Sorry. Obviously you haven't read ALL my posts little pod.<P>I'm not better than anybody, okay? You're the one that seems to be playing that victim game here. "Poor little me. I'm so abused ... I'm just gonna go out and cheat on my H. That'll show him. Two can play at this game."<P>I'm not certain what part of the Bible that is from, Pod. Perhaps you can point it out to me.

Podperson - I am sorry for your pain. I am sorry that you endured so much during your marriage. Truly, that must have been devastating. Living as you did had to be just torment. I know, I lived the same life with my first husband, including emotional and physical abuse, for 10 years.<P>May I ask, though, why are you here? Would you like the support and encouragement and friendship that those of us on this forum are ready to give? <P>If so, here we are. And we will stand beside you every step of the way. If not, maybe this is not the place for you to be.<P>Lori

To me - a creep is someone who thinks that they can come on this board and uphold infidelity. There is an unrepentent OM who is coming here and doing just that. That to me is the only creep on this board.<P>It sounds like you want your marriage to work, but will resort to infidelity again, if it doesn't. I'm not sure exactly what classification that is.<P>I guess you are trying to build your marriage, but it sure sounds like you have lots and lots of work to do. If my husband said those things to me, I guess I would tell him to jump in a lake. I guess I could say that it is my turn, and I will cheat on him. I guess I could say - knock yourself out, buddy. <P>But where would that get me? Would it help build my marriage?<P>I think you need to ask yourself what you want. Do you want your marriage to work? Because if you truly do, then this is the board for you. If you don't then, I would suggest you forget about this forum, because we are in enough pain, we don't need more people putting us in added pain.<P>I think you have confused the problem here. It isn't your husband, it is your marriage. It takes 2 to make a marriage, and if your marriage was bad - and you resorted to an affair, well - all anyone can do now is go forward. But you need to know where you want to go, or you are going around in circles.

No, as a matter of fact, when we met he treated me GREAT .......... very similar to how he's treating me NOW, AFTER the affair. Interesting, don't you think? It's a darn shame that had to happen for him to start showing me he loved me and cared about my feelings, isn't it?<P>THAT'S what I'm talking about. And I don't wave the "infidelity flag" in front of his face. As a matter of fact, I don't mention it because HE isn't trying to rub my nose in it every minute in the way that I bet some of you here do to your "betrayer" spouses.<P>I read that long "creep thread," and I bet D99 and Elixir give it to their spouses but good. Can you imagine the SALT they are pouring.<P>I am all for rebuilding the marriage, but I'm not going to sit around and talk about how EVIL I am, was, or whatever. If we are going to rebuild, then we both have to take responsibility for the actions that got us here and go forward. I am more than willing to do that with my husband. But like I said, I'm not going to allow ANYONE to try to make me feel like I am some lower than anyone else just because I reacted differently than someone else. I happen to think it's pretty low to give someone the silent treatment. Oh, but, as long as that person doesn't cheat, they're not a creep, right?<P>If "everyone" here is so willing to help, why do people start threads calling people "creeps?" <P>And Maya, yes, I've read your posts. Plenty of them. And you're saying I am playing a victim? Please! What I am saying is, and I wish you could read my lips.......<P>I cheated, and I accept FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS. I cheated because I got sick and tired of not having my needs met. Point blank. What part of that is playing a victim? Just because I give the facts? Yes, my husband treated me like crap, and as a result, an affair was possible. End of story. I'm not sitting around boohooing about anything. I did what I felt I had to do. I accept that. If my husband wanted to leave me as a result, he knows where the door is. If he wants to work on rebuilding the marriage WITH ME, then he knows I'm all for that too. But I'm NOT going to sit around and listen to how much WORSE I am because at least he didn't cheat. Nope, that's not gonna to happen. <P>We are starting fresh and I suggest that's what the rest of you do too. Maybe if you did, your marriage rebuilding would go better. <P>My husband hasn't given me the silent treatment for over 3 months since he found out about my affair. Amazing, isn't it?<p>[This message has been edited by PodPerson (edited September 28, 1999).]

I believe there was only one person calling someone "creeps" & he is new here. We don't like it any more than you do. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And just because you all think I'm some creep who doesn't deserve to be angry or feel pain, too bad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think any one here would say that at all. However, your attitude of, "I'M GLAD I DID IT, and I would do it again in a heartbeat" was what brought a ruffle to our feathers.<P>I freely admit I made big mistakes in my marriage. I'm far from perfect & so is she. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to fix things. Still didn't give her the right to have an affair.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If he tried to punish me the way so many of you are doing here, he'd be left in a New York minute.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Any of us here treating our spouses like that? I don't think so. If my Wife came back with an attitude like you are showing here, I'd boot her out in a heartbeat!<P>I pray everything works out for you. But if you act like this towards your husband and continue it, then I feel sorry for both of you, 'cause I don't think it will last. He is not one little bit responsible for you having an affair.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 28, 1999).]

PodPerson:<P>Nobody said this was gonna be easy. I remember what it was like for me when I first got here. I didn't think I'd ever feel good about my marriage again. I didn't think I'd be able to love my wife as much as I did before the affair.<P>I haven't heard anyone on this forum say that they feel like they are a better person than you are. I certainly don't feel like I am. I've made huge mistakes, I've sinned big time. I've never had an affair, but I've done my share of crappy things.<P>I said "Do unto others . . ." for YOUR benefit. Put aside what your H did. Clearly, your H did NOT do unto you as he would have YOU do unto him. That's over and done with. However, remember that old adage "Two wrongs don't make a right?"<P>I'm not judging you. Really, I'm not. I understand where you are. I understand WHY you did it. But, don't you see that it wasn't the right way to handle the situation? It may have seemed like it at the time, but it really was not.<P>No one is trying to punish you. We sympathize with you. What an awful position to be put in!<P>How long ago did you cheat? How long did your affair last? Did you love your OM, or was he just a tool to make your H "wake up?"<P>I don't ask these questions to be nosy, I would like to know where you are in the healing process.<P>Aren't you even the least bit sorry that you felt you had to resort to breaking your marriage vows to get your H's attention?<P>I do, really, feel sorry for you. I hope, in the coming weeks, you'll feel some repentence. Clearly, your H is now realizing the full extent of HIS failure to honor and cherish you. I suspect, you will not begin to heal until you REALLY realize the total immorality of your choice to cheat.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

podperson, my wife is currently having an affair,and i know it was partly due to my behavior towards her. i would do anything to heal her wounds. i hope that someday she will come back and allow me to treat her like she deserves. it is NEVER TOO LATE for a person to change and recongnize that. i hurt and ache for her, but i also know she is hurting also. thats what the pain does to people. dosen't make her bad or a "creep". neither are you. i hope your marriiage will heal, if thats what you want. i hope mine can heal. i hope I don't become self righteous, thats what drove her off to begin with. good luck and prayers.

Lots of activity on this thread now.<P>PodPerson:<P>Please, stop generalizing about all of us. Are you not paying attention? Nobody is trying to make you think you are less of a person than they are. The "creep" thread was somebody else's attempt to find out what the heck is going on with betrayers. Poor choice of words, I guess, but if you read the thread, you saw the clarification.<P>Why do you insist on pigeon holing the words some people use into generalizations about you?<P>I happen to believe that somebody who gives the silent treatment to their spouse IS being a creep. I also think that someone who has an affair and feels NO remorse about it is a creep too.<P>Your statements seem to be conflicting. You say you feel no remorse about the affair, but then say that it's a shame it had to come to that to get your H back to the way he used to be.<P>Doesn't that mean you KNOW, in your heart that it was a mistake?<P>You're not making a lot of sense right now, and I think it's because you're worked up with anger. There's nothing wrong with being angry about your marital situation. Anger can be constructive, but you have to VENT it in a healthy way. Coming here and provoking others isn't the best way, IMHO. It just leaves you open to attack from people with hurt feelings, and that puts YOU on the defensive, creating MORE anger and stress.<P>Let us help you. Don't generalize. If you see something you don't like, don't say "you all say this or that," point out WHO said it so that person can clarify or engage in dialogue with you.<P>Please, post intelligently. <P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Covenant,<P>THANK YOU. I hope your wife gives you another chance. You sound like a good person at heart. I wish more people on this forum would post like you have, then maybe MY feathers wouldn't get so ruffled. I come here for help and insight, not to be talked down to like I am some child. I am an adult, and I made adult decisions based on my own life and experience. Point blank. At least I am not hiding behind anything. I fully admit what I've done and I take responsibility for it. And, I CAN LIVE WITH IT. I'm not going to beat on myself, and I'm not going to let anyone else beat me either.<P>Lone Star,<P>Look, you asked me "Aren't you even the least bit sorry that you felt you had to resort to<BR>breaking your marriage vows to get your H's attention?" Yes, I AM sorry that I had to resort to breaking my marriage vows to get my H's attention. Very sorry. And HE'S sorry that he broke his marriage vows for so long too. But, that is different than me trying to say that REGARDLESS of him breaking marriage vows for MANY YEARS, I am more of an "immoral sinner" for breaking mine. Nope. Sorry. I don't feel that way.<P>People make choices based on their situations and experiences. I'm sorry that our marriage was so piss-poor for so long, that's what I'm mostly sorry about. Now it's time to fix things, not sit around and talk about how low of a person I sunk to be.<P>And Chris, my husband doesn't call me a creep and isn't self-righteous at all. He knows the deal because he was right here living the life with me. He knows how many nights I cried myself to sleep because he was laying right beside me. So, there's no need for me to replay it for him. He wants to fix things now, and I'm glad. We wasted a lot of time. He knows that if he had agreed to counseling 10 years ago when I first asked, more than likely none of this would have happened. So, no, there's no need for me to rub anything in his face. <p>[This message has been edited by PodPerson (edited September 28, 1999).]

Podperson,<BR>From the tone of your posts, you sound like you have become your H (based on your description of H.)<P>I have peace but my pain is not gone. There is a difference. Peace comes only through having a deep intimate relationship with Jesus. It is because of my relationship with Him that I am able to understand why my W did what she did. I don't blame her because she did not understand that she has to work with me. We have to agree even when it means that we agree that we will disagree on a particular topic or point. It takes team work as she is continually telling me, yet she is not showing any signs of wanting to be on the team. She only wants to control the situation regardless of who gets hurt as long as it is not her.<P>It is not fair of you to make a generalization based on the posts of one or two people who are angry because they are angry at themselves rather than the people who they lash out at. Yes, when someone lashes out, it is because they are angry with something that they have done. My W got upset with our boys the other night because they are showing signs of her behavior. I have even caught myself doing lashing out at someone for behavior that I was exhibiting. It is a self defense mechanism that God built into how our body's operate.<P>I came here because my W won't discuss any of what has happened. I am here to learn how to approach her to let her know that I still love her unconditionally just as God loves her unconditionally. It is not a victim party because there are other betrayers here who also are wanting to heal just as you are.<P>We are not asking you to grovel before us. Yet, for you to receive the forgiveness that you desire, you must also ask your H for forgiveness. Your pain will not go away until you have his forgiveness. It will gnaw away at you until you know that you have it. It is apart of God's forgiveness. Don't have the scripture right now but it concerns having an issue with your brother (anyone in general).<P>Praying for you and your family. MONDO HUG!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Lone Star,<P>Please don't resort to any superiority. If you find my posts unintelligable, then by all means, pass them by. Yes, I AM worked up right now, and mostly because I see alot of hipocrisy on this forum. You all say that you want to rebuild, but what I see is many of you (and no, I'm not going to go through each post word for word and name names) don't practice what you preach. No matter what caused the marriage problems to come to the forefront, what does it matter? If there were problems there, then the problems NEEDED to come out. I'm quite sure that most of you were told by your spouses that they weren't happy or that things needed to change. Okay, maybe a few of you that wasn't the case. But for the majority, for whatever reason, things didn't change. Maybe you didn't hear them. Maybe they didn't communicate it to you in the right way. Maybe you weren't listening. Maybe they weren't listening to you. But, for some reason some people want to now act so shocked that their spouse was so unhappy and unfulfilled.<P>My H knows that I pleaded with him to get counseling. He knows I told him repeatedly that I was unhappy. And thank god he doesn't try to deny it. He also doesn't say, "yeah, but even though I did all that, you still shouldn't have had an affair. How could you?" No, you know what he says? He says, "serves me right for treating you so badly." That's what he says. Big difference. <P>And I will retract saying I would do it again. That was wrong and that was also a lie. I won't do it again because never again will I put up with being mistreated like that. I was a stupid idiot for putting up with it as long as I did. Never again. So, I'll change that phrase to, if my husband ever starts acting like a [censored] again, I'M GONE. <P>But I don't think that's going to happen. It looks like he finally gets it.<P>Rob,<P>You sound like a nice person too. Maybe one day I will be able to ask my H for forgiveness, but I'm not there yet. He's asked me for mine, and I know I also have not fully forgiven him yet either. We aren't perfect, obviously, so God isn't finished with us yet. <P>I have asked God for His forgiveness and have received it, so I am at peace with that. <p>[This message has been edited by PodPerson (edited September 28, 1999).]

Podperson,<P>I do know how you feel. There was a short period where I did not feel repentant either. I finally confessed about 6 months after my affair ended because it was the only hope I had for our marriage then. It took me that long to figure out exactly why I did what I did, and form a plan to make our marriage better. I was extremely repentant, but my H's abuse turned that repentance into something else. He too thought he was a saint simply because he didn't have sex with someone else, although he did take another woman on a week long vacation and stayed in the same room with her. But hey, his you-know-what wasn't in any of her you-know-wheres, so that's not cheating. Right. He refused counseling, either individually or together. Never mind all the awful things he said to me, the way he talked down to me (BEFORE the affair). This is a man who told me to go jump off a bridge when I was crying on my hands and knees begging for forgiveness. This is a man who called me every disgusting name in the book. Never mind that I told him zillions of times how much his criticism hurt me (before the affair). He ended up divorcing me. Mainly because he was too pig-headed to take responsibility for his part in the failure of our marriage and because he had some kind of "moral imperative" to leave. Having said all of that, I STILL WISH I NEVER HAD AN AFFAIR. I could have retained some self-respect if I had just left. His behavior did not justify my cheating, nor did my cheating justify his flagrant abuse.<P>When someone cheats in an otherwise long-term, monogamous relationship, I too believe that it is only a SYMPTOM of the problems, not the cause of them. And both people are responsible for the problems. I've often reminded people here of the OTHER vows in the marriage: to love and cherish, for better or worse, sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, and oh, yea, till death do us part. <P>My guess is that your anger is masking some very, very real pain built up over the years, and maybe even some guilt that your pain has pulled you down to a place where you thought you'd never go. But maybe you are afraid that if you feel some repentance or show it to your husband, then he will treat you even worse? This IS the time he gets to show you what he is made of, for better or worse. This is your chance too.

I'm really sorry things went so wrong in your<BR>marriage.<BR>Personally I think there are better ways to fix a marriage than to have an affair. Playing with people's lives and feelings never accomplishes anything constructive. From what you wrote, it doesn't sound like there is anything your husband can do to make you happy being married to him anymore. Anything nice he does now will be because he better do it, or else. You're going to make him work doubly hard to gain back less than one half of one percent of any feelings you still may have for him, and you still may dump him if the mood strikes your fancy.<BR>It's easier to cast blame on the other party than accept that wrong is wrong is wrong. If you aren't sorry about your affair now, you never will be. Punishing your husband won't ever alleviate the wrong that's been done.<BR>Also sounds like you really do want a divorce, but are going to make your husband so miserable that he'll initiate the proceedings, that way he'll have to pay for it and not you.<BR>As far as being self righteous, the main issue here is that not one of us who were betrayed had any idea what was going on, I was kept completely in the dark about what was happening behind my back. Upon discovery, I was deeply hurt and angry, and justifiably so. I was at an unfair advantage during that whole hidden year, because I had no idea what was going on, therefore I had no idea what it was exactly that needed fixing. By not letting your h know what you were doing, you weren't giving him a fair chance to start fixing things a lot sooner.<BR>I feel sorry for the other man if you hook up with him, if he sneezes without saying excuse me his bags will be packed before he has a chance to reach for the kleenex.<BR>

Tendervittles,<P>WHATEVER! You don't know me. Obviously you haven't read my posts on this thread. And Lone Star says I need to post intelligently? No, I don't feel repentent now, but thanks for slamming the door shut completely and saying "I never will." Are you God? The all powerful, all knowing? Now THAT'S what I mean by SELF-RIGHTEOUS. Lone Star, how's that for an example?<P>The Student,<P>What you say makes a great deal of sense. Thank you so much for posting to me. It does sound like you understand how I feel. Would it be possible for us to correspond through email?

Podperson:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Please don't resort to any superiority.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Please point to the exact words I used to indicate that I am superior to you. That was never my intention. When I asked you to post intelligently (not intelligibly, by the way), I simply meant that I would like you to think before posting and post consistently.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You all say that you want to rebuild, but what I see is many of you (and no, I'm not going to go through each post word for word and name names) don't practice what you preach. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Am I not practicing what I preach? Please enlighten me, because I haven't seen that. Please provide me with examples of others who are not practicing what they preach. If there are some there, I need to know what you are talking about to be able to speak intelligently with you about this issue.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>No matter what caused the marriage problems to come to the forefront, what does it matter?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It does matter. It is never right to approach a problem by creating another, bigger problem. I will grant you that your affair CERTAINLY got your H's attention. Good for you. Now, however, not only do you have to deal with getting over your anger and mistrust of HIM, he has to deal with getting over anger and mistrust of YOU. In addition, if you DO resolve things, you are eventually going to feel the guilt for what you've done. It will NOT be a fun ride, I assure you. Furthermore, you broke God's sacred sacrament of marriage. Does this make you feel proud? Clearly it does not.<P>I think it makes a VERY big difference how problems come out. If I had had the foresight and consideration to seek counseling for my wife and me BEFORE the affair, maybe it wouldn't have happened. If she had had the guts to come to me and say "Lone Star, I'm feeling attracted to another man, we NEED to talk about it and seek counseling about it," I bet I would have been willing to try.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He also doesn't say, "yeah, but even though I did all that, you still shouldn't have had an affair. How could you?" No, you know what he says? He says, "serves me right for treating you so badly."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's really too bad, because nothing he did to you justifies your affair. Yeah, he treated you like crap, but again, I go back to the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right." You didn't "fix" him, you compounded the problem. Perhaps he got a taste of his own medicine, but in my opinion, it's just gonna make your recovery harder. You want honest opinions, that's mine.<P>Hope you'll think a little bit and put the 'tude back in your pocket.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Hi Pod!<BR>I think I understand what you are saying in your post. It's like it takes something so drastic as this to get your H to wake up and see you. I don't know if I believe that you are really "happy" about the affair, that you think it's OK to cheat, as some have implied. That really isnt' what you said. You just said that you really aren't sorry. That's OK too. Right now it sounds like you have a very hard heart. That happens to us betrayers. I think it's how we cope. I think that someday, if things get better between you and your H you will feel remorse. Maybe not. It really isn't the point. It's not a prerequisite that all betrayers that post here are remorseful. I agree that there are some betrayed that feel that they are superior than the betrayer. That's how they cope. There are some that will spout Christianity, ( not many, but a few) and in the same breath wish death or worse on the OP in their situation. Doesn't make a lot of sense. I've read some threads that are so smug from the betrayed that my only reaction is, " I bet you're a real joy to live with. No wonder he cheated." My OM's wife was that way. Anytime he disagreed with her opinion, she'd cut him down to size. Right off at the knees. She was NEVER wrong! <P>I understand why you stayed in your marriage, but chose an affair. That's not so strange. There must be something salvageable there or you would not have stayed and you wouldn't be here. The betrayed aren't the only ones entitled to their anger, their hate. They aren't the only ones in an affair that get hurt. It's hard for someone betrayed to think of a betrayer as human. Only those here that have been both betrayed and betrayer are able to fully understand both sides. An affair is a complicated thing. No one can say that they would NEVER cheat. It happens to the best of us. Good, godly people fall everyday. That is why we need a Savior. We are all imperfect, subject to temptations. None of us should attack the other because of their faults. No one should imagine themselves incapable of falling as far. <BR>Pod, I hope that you can deal with your anger. Maybe you said this already, but how long has it been since your affair ended? Is this new for you? It takes awhile to feel remorse. I'm sure you're not a PodPerson. You obviously need love and acceptance like the rest of us, or there would have been no "need" for the affair. And it's PAINFUL to feel sorry, or remorseful. It is also part of the healing process. Experience it on your own time. Good luck to you. And there is some good things on this board. Just take what you need from here,and leave the rest. Sometimes what is said is no more than people unimagineable pain, trying to make sense. As wrong as someone may be, NO ONE deserves to experience this type of pain and betrayal. I know you know that. I know that deep down, you would have rather done something different to get you H's attention. Sounds like you tried. No it wasn't right, it wasn't OK. But an affair is pretty potent medicine, when you are hurting. Almost like an illegal narcotic. It's against the law, but that doesn't stop people from doing it. And it sure feels good while you're on that trip. It's the coming down that's hard. Glad you're here.<BR>

Pod, ol' buddy ol' pal .... perhaps it's time to get off the computer, slam a couple of Ding Dongs and take a shower ...<P>You really really are upset at the WRONG people. None of us screwed up your marriage ... we all got a mess of our own that we're dealing with. No one has claimed to be better than you ... we just cannot understand your attitude right now.<P>We really are easy to get along with. And if you don't like what you see, then DON'T read it -- and DON'T respond to it. I find Carlton and D99 highly offensive in their attitudes .... D99 hasn't made one single step forward since he's been here, which has been like 118 years it seems. Therefore I don't read what they post, or I read and shake me head and not post, or I take a stab with sarcasam. (that is just my personality and it's gotten me in trouble MORE than once) <P>You're new, your wounds are fresh. If you give us AND YOUR H AND YOURSELF a chance, I know you can be happy again!<P>I am confident that in a few short months your situation will be totally different and you will be looking at yourself and your H with new eyes!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 28, 1999).]

Trimmi,<P>Thank you so much for your post. Between what you, The Student, covenant and Professorg have said, I have alot to think about tonight. I don't know where the future will lead my husband and me. I hope it's somewhere good this time. I know that I am going to try like mad to keep us on the right course. I'm glad that now I have my husband's cooperation this time. Last year I felt like my life was literally over. The thought of never feeling loved again sunk me lower than I ever felt. Maybe it was also the turning 40 thing, but I don't know. If my husband and I can rekindle our love, I'm willing to try. But one person can't save a marriage. I needed his help, and now I have it. I'm not going to question anything else. He and I have wasted too much time already.<P>Maya, <P>I have a question for you. What if you posted something with alot of emotion, be it anger, pain, or whatever, and someone responded to your post that you should just "get off the computer and eat a twinkie," how would you feel? You have a very sarcastic attitude but I bet I'm not the first person to tell you that. As Lone Star asked me, do you think before you hit "submit reply?" <P>I'm not looking for any quick fix. If one day I am filled with incredible remorse because my husband is treating me SO WELL, then I CAN'T WAIT! He's doing a much better job now, and it has only been 3 months, so time will tell. I HOPE one day I can look back on all this and say, "well, he treated me like crap for 20 years, but he treated me like gold for the next 20." That would be nice. But, that is as much up to him as it is to me. I'm game if he's game. We both are, so time will tell.<P>Lone Star,<P>Thanks for correcting my grammar. I don't profess to be an english major. And I'm sorry if my story is too disjointed for you to comprehend. I will try to do better. Oh, and also thank you for telling me how much MORE difficult my rebuilding will be now that I have had an affair. So full of hope! Funny thing is, there would be NO REBUILDING had it not been for my affair. And as far as it being a shame how my husband feels, that is something that maybe you should take up with him. Personally, I think the fact that he isn't saying, "how could you?" will make us heal better. But maybe that's just me.

podperson, you go girl. i admire your courage and that let'um have it attitude.<BR>you just about have your cake and have eaten it too.<BR>don't let any of the keepers of the rule book make you feel bad. no matter what you do or did, if it felt good, they would criticise you for it.<BR>i often wonder how it is so many people, especially women, can stay in marriages in which all they get is crap.<BR>demand your fair share of satisfaction out of life because you deserve it.<BR> good luck and hang in there

podperson, i would be willing to chat thru email if you like. i was abusive towards my wife alos- verbally, not communicating, listening, talking, not treating her with respect, honor, and dignity. i am currentlyinvolved in a domestic violence program to unlearn my behavior. guess i hoped she be there when the sun came out again. rrinkes@yahoo. feel free. i have alot of pain. sharing it seems to make it lessen. thanks.

See me with my hands in the air ....<P>I GIVE UP.

Hey Pod...<P>If frankie's agreeing with you, that's pretty much the only indicator you need that what you are doing is wrong.<P>Unless D99 or Carlton agree too. At least frankie’s managed to pull his head out once or twice.<P>Agree with Maya though... you’re mad at the wrong people. Try reading THAT part of the post, instead of keying on sugary snack foods! <P>(FWIW, Pod... I think my affair might just have saved my marriage too... wake-up call for us both and all. Not that I’d ever recommend it as marital therapy...)<BR>

Well Pod, I guess I could say - Ditto, Ditto, Ditto to everything posted in here. However, let me just say this. <P>I feel for you in having a H that treated you like crap. That stinks! It was like that with my realtinship also. The difference was my H had the affair not me. <P>You also have to realize that there is a great deal of emotion floating around on this board - because Infidelity is one of the worst painful situations you can thru in your life. That is why the general population believes that only a creep could commit adulty. We all view that the ideal situation would be for everyone to have a "perfect marriage." When that is not the case and you try to get your spouse to work things out and they won't - you leave. It sounds like if your relationship was as bad as you say it was - then 20 years is a long time to put up with someone else's crap. The answer was not an affair. Maybe you can fix your relationship now, but maybe if you had left him that would have opened his eyes too. If not, you would both have moved on. <P>You need to understand that you having an affair was wrong even if it got him to listen to you. It is just wrong. However, I hope that you and your H are able to move on and fix your relationship. I wish my H and I could.<P>Good luck !!!<P>PS - Please loose some of the anger and realize that we are all hurting including you. Infidelity is a sin - it is wrong. Anger doesn't help you. Please for the sake of your marriage and this forum - loose it. Those of us with unfaithful spouses need the perspective of people who have walked in your shoes - just without the anger. <BR><P>------------------<BR>H

Podperson,<P>I guess I've avoided this thread for too long, so here goes. I guess I'm trying to figure out are you angry at your H, or at people on this forum? That's the confusion I see. If your H did all these horrible things in the past, and he is now sorry for them and has agreed to counseling and to change, then I do think that if you have it in your heart to forgive his past behavior, you will make it. But only if you both can forgive and move on. <P>I'm in the good position of being both betrayed and betrayer, so I hope you accept this coming from me when I say that being betrayed by your spouse is a horrible, horrible thing. But, I'm not going to try to tell you that some of the things you described that were going on in your marriage (silent treatment, crying yourself to sleep, etc) is not as bad. How in the world would I know that? I haven't lived your life, just like you haven't lived mine. There is no way for us to compare pains. That said, with the slate wiped clean, I hope you will one day see that forgiveness is going to be key in saving your marriage. It can be done.<P>But, I get a sense that you're mad at people here on the forum. Let me guess, Elixir's thread ticked you off too? Throw in the extra added bonus of D99 and there you have it! There is hypocrisy on this board at times, I have to agree with you. I've even been accused of being "unremorseful" too when I've tried to explain "how" I was able to have an affair. But there are many people who understand and are here to offer non-judgemental insight and support. Don't hold the angry, hateful and judgemental stuff against everyone. Most people on this forum are cool.. <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Podperson,<P>I sure wish you wouldn't lump all the betrayed in one big pile. Everyone has a different situation...just like you! I refuse to take any responsibility whatsoever for what my H did. While I was at home changing dirty diapers on our baby he was taking WAY YOUNGER woman on a trip and having his fun. NOTHING I did made him make his choices!!!! I did not fail my spouse as you so bluntly put it. And YES I AM A BETTER PERSON THAN MY H. I had plenty of opportunities to turn flirting into a full fledge affair I chose differently! I put my marriage and my family first.....SO I WILL TAKE THE FULL CREDIT BEING A BETTER PERSON THAN YOU! I would have left before I would have done what you did.......AND JUST THE WAY YOU TALK...I wonder if it was a married man that you cheated with....I can hear it now both of your sob stories back and forth feeling sorry for each other right before you jumped into bed together...talk about poor me....it's not the people here that sound like that it's YOU<P>GOOD LUCK

podperson,<BR>Alot of the people here (both betrayed and betrayer) have good things to say. I know what it is like to be in a pit of despair and have someone else there in the wrong place, at the wrong time, showing you what seems to be the light out. Then you find out that light is really a blow-torch and you are set on fire instead of being saved. One of my favorite lines from an Ani di Franco song goes "a little bird told me that jumping is easy, that falling is fun. Right up till you hit the sidewalk, shivering and stunned". I think you know that only constructive actions on both of your parts will save your marriage now. Destructive behavior can only make a bad situation worse, as lonestar suggested. You can email me at danars@bellsouth.net if you need to talk somemore.

PodPerson:<P>I think I've been fairly nice up until now, but you're being a MAJOR jerk right now. Why can't you accept a little friendly help without assuming everybody's out to get you? Personally, I don't care if you stick around or not now. I've tried to be nice and offer helpful suggestions. I've politely asked you to give concrete examples of your generalizations so that I can understand what you're talking about. I corrected a perceived misconception on your part (intelligible v. intelligent - there is a difference). No malice was intended.<P>Apparently, however, EVERYBODY who disagrees with you, who points out an inconsistency of yours, or who has anything to tell you that is not 100% in agreement with you is out to get you, put you down, or stomp on your marriage.<P>I guess you like having a doormat for a husband. Can't say I blame you given the way you claim to have been treated by him in the past. Looks like you put him in his "proper" place, and now YOU'VE got the upper hand. Don't expect him to stay there for long. Your diatribe has worn thin HERE in only a couple of hours.<P>Sorry if you don't like what I have to say, but you're gonna find out the hard way, and I guess that's your right.<P>Thanks for reminding me that MOST of the people on this board could be a heck of a lot worse than they are. They could be venomous, incorrigible jerks like you.<P>Good luck in healing your marriage. You're gonna need it.<P>----<P>Frankie:<P>Once again, you're being an idiot. You two deserve each other. Go start your own board.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited September 28, 1999).]

You had an affair, exposed yourself, and now your husband to a possible disease...<BR>if the OM was married, you may have destroyed his life and marriage,and you are not sorry??<P>If your spouse treats you like crap, as you say, then try to get him to change, if that doesnt work, get out of the marriage.<BR>You get what you put up with. He would not have treated you like that if he didnt think he could get away with it, you allowed it to go on by staying with him back then.<P>I am sorry it took an affair to make things better for you.<P>If you were my wife and did that for this reason, you would be on the curb.......<BR>but I never treated her bad.<P>I hope that you and your husband can survive this.<P>Ian

Hey KWAS...<P>Just to let you know, while your H was 100% responsible for his decision to have an affair(as was I), YOU were 50% responsible for the state of your marriage up to that point. And no matter what you say, I know it could have been you given different circumstances. One thing I firmly believe; it could happen to anyone given the right(or more accurately, the wrong) circumstances. I know this, because it happened to me, and I was the last person on earth either my W or I thought could do something like this. I was not a “creep,” and you’re certainly no better than I am. I am(and was) a good person who made horrible(and creepy) choices for a time, and am doing everything I can to make it up to my W. Not just by being contrite on the affair, but by helping make our life together *incredible.* <P>So do the work, make your marriage all it can be. The possibility can never be eliminated, but you can make your marriage SO good that the possibility dwindles into near invisibility.<BR>

Lone Star,<P>PLEASE leave me alone. I don't need to be talked to like a child or lectured by you. I'M SORRY for generalizing, OKAY? I will stop if you will. Deal? But why do you have to belittle me and call me names? What's up with that? Does that make YOU feel better? Don't worry about me and my husband. He doesn't feel like you do, so we will be fine. If he felt like you, then we'd be doomed. I'm not trying to tell you how YOUR wife won't stick around. Why do you think you have the INSIGHT into my life to tell me? If you can't post civily to me and I piss you off that much, then don't post anymore. <P>TheStudent and Covenant, I will email both of you tonight.<P>New Woman, THANK YOU for your understanding words. I know I flew off the handle, and that was wrong, but a person can only take so much. I will stop lumping everyone into one category. I hope some of the betrayed stop doing that too.<P>IOH,<P>Yes, thank you, my husband IS treating me better now. I'm very sorry I was invisible until he found out. I wish he would have been able to see me before, but he sees me now and I have to at least be happy that we have a chance. Before, we didn't.<P><BR>********************EVERYONE, I APOLOGIZE FOR GENERALIZING!!!!!!!*************************<p>[This message has been edited by PodPerson (edited September 28, 1999).]

PodPerson:<P>Whatever. I'm beyond reasoning with you. You can't be a jerk to people over and over again and not expect to get whacked.<P>I apologize for the jerk comment. Didn't follow my own advice.<P>Sorry you think you'd be doomed if you and your H thought like me. My W and I are 6 months into recovery, and we've done VERY well with my "doomsday" attitude. <P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited September 28, 1999).]

Hey Lone Star, pssssssst chill. Are you having a bad day or something? I don't think I've ever seen you call anyone names before. Come on, you're better than that. Patience. Remember? <P>PodPerson,<P>Question for you. Do you at least want to forgive your H? If so, then that's a start. With forgiveness will come your inevitable remorse. When you start to love your H again, you will be said for his pain, that I can assure you. Years of tearing down will take years to put back together. <P>You got off to a rocky start here on the forum, but I also think you'll begin to see things more clearly as time goes on and as you and your H continue to work on things together. Hang in there. <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Okay., Podperson,<P>YOu have stepped, no trampled on some people with a lot of caring advice. I really was sort of willing to let that go. And not post because I think that you are so very off base, but you said that you have not forgiven your husband but that God has forgiven you. WRONG!!!!<P>Please read Matthew 6:14-15. For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. (Now listen carefully ) But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive you your sins.<P>No maybes here, no room for if i do it later. Just very clear and simple scripture.<P>Now as for some of the othere stuff you have had to say. My H is an alcoholic and in the past 10 years I have been verbally and physically abused, subjected to the old silent treatment and then HE had an affair. But I forgave him. He was and is sorry. He didn't do it to punish me or get my attention. <P>God found a "hammer" to get his attention and bring out just what he was risking(ME) and my H is in an alcohol rehab. Learning to kick this and grateful that I still love him.<P>IMHO, you should have gone to counselling years ago, whetther he would or not. And breaking one of God's commandments is never a good way to go. No I am not perfect and yes I make mistakes, but I try to do my best everyday and I don't knowingly hurt any one.<P>And TNT is not tendervittles. She is a very wise and caring lady. So woman wake up. You have a long way to go and you will need some good advice along the way. She may just be the one to give it to you. Or talk to you all night when you need a shoulder to cry on, or maybe it will be Maya.<P>You are new. And I understand your anger at your H. But none of us have done anything bad to you. Please stay and experience the help that is unique to this board.<P>God bless you.

Correction, Dreamer:<P>I did something bad. I called her a jerk. I apologize for that remark. I still think she was misreading my posts and my intentions, and I hope that if she goes back and re-reads them, she'll see that my only intent was to help.<P>Regardless, letting my frustration get the best of me was wrong. PodPerson, I apologize for the name-calling incident.<P>Please come back and read my posts again tomorrow or the next day and see if they still read the same way to you. If they do, I'll try to do better about choosing my words.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Soooo..... would you guys all hate me if I confessed I was actually chuckling while reading your posts? <P>Okay now, hold on for juuuuust a sec so I can explain... <P>I've been here a long time now. Not the longest, but long enough to have seen alot. And, I did my time in cyberia before that. Trust me, I've seen alot. So I ask: Please gang, just sit back and look at yourselves. You might get a chuckle too.<P>I'm laughing at myself as well, yanoo. Yep, it's true. Surely I'd never stoop so low as to calling anyone names or getting riled over something someone posted. Okay, mea culpa. Mea culpa.<P>Thru the clarity of not being involved in this firefight, there are a couple of points of perspective I want to share.<P>First, I see a lotta good people here getting all torqued up. I like and respect many of you. And, some of you I don't know but chances are you're good people. All in all here, I see lots of caring, bright people with claws bared. Guess that's what I look like when D99 and I snarl at each other?<P>PP, I don't think you're a jerk. Heck I don't know enough about you yet to cook that up and I hate hasty pudding. But, you sure have been snarly on this thread. I doubt you're that ornery. Are you?<P>And Maya, LS, DAC, and Chris... we know each other quite well. Ya gotta laugh, right?<P>Hey you know me too. Not exactly a wallflower all the time when it comes to the text form of thrust-and-parry. Yep, I've been known to go for blood. And, sometimes I feel stupid when I do it. NOT that I'm calling aaaaaanybody stupid. Now, don't start that all ya'll! LOL<P>Here...I'll share a recent experience I had in my work. I run a small subsidiary biz of a larger North American company. I work for the CEO. He's a gem of a guy and a wonderful diplomat. Wowwa, what I learn from him!<P>Since I work at a satellite office, we frequently use email. Now I'm the type of guy whose tendency is to call 'em as I see 'em. I analyze well, draw conclusions and sell my points strongly. Well, I guess my "direct and forceful" style sometimes intimidates people and they get all reactionary.<P>Geez, not what I intended at all! I didn't mean to insult anyone. I didn't imply that someone wasn't doing their job. Heck, I just assumed we were all on the same team and that people cared as strongly as I did. I just wanna help us all do better! Geez, I never expected I had the ONLY idea, just that mine was a good one.<P>See what I mean? Sound familiar? My mentor suggested I be more careful about how I present my arguments. Not only what words I choose but the timing of how I deliver them.<P>Do I always take that advice? Naaaaaaaah. LOL<P>Food for thought.

Whodat<P>Thanks for your reply and honesty. I am just a month from discovery so I have a lot of sorting out to do. I will soak in as much as I can from this forum. I still am unwilling to take 50% of any blame as even my husband says he does not know what happened at that it is all his fault. I know we had some unresolved issues but not big. He does not allow me to think of blaming myself because he knows how many countless times I tried to reach him and how hard I tried and how much I loved him and my family. So in this situation..I am and will continue to be unwilling to take blame. However I do see issues and am working hard on them I am in counseling with H which is very hard I might add. But we have not separated and I am just now getting over feeling like a complete fool for not knowing and for trusting. I was there for him and his whole family and my daughter...I know it and he knows it. The sad thing is that I lose, some of the people I love the most in this world if it doesn't work out. Why do I lose?? Who knows...my H still cannot provide a clear answer as to why this happened he cannot believe he even did it at all (FOR TWO YEARS I say??) God help me I do so want to forgive him and have a light willing heart. Thanks again for it shows that there is guys out there that mess up but in the end really do love their wives. Gives me hope

Reading through this thread, I just thought of something. Maybe pod person doesn't want to forgive because she is afraid of feeling remorse? I don't know, but it sounds to me like she has some mighty high walls built up.<P>Pod,<BR>None of us have walked in your shoes. I think there's so much pain behind your anger. I lived a similar life to you, except it was my H who cheated on me. He ignored me for many years with his own selfish behavior and self-gratification, and then to top it off he cheated on me. Now I'm left with having to put the pieces back together. I have a lot of the same anger toward my H that I feel you expressing, but what am I to do with it? I read this forum and it seems most of the betrayed are really angry at the OP. I'm not. I'm furious with my H, almost to the point of where at times I want to do things to him. I have broken so many of his belongings. He had some fishing trophies he earned over the years, and I destroyed every one. Sometimes when he is at work, I go through his things and I throw away mementos that I know mean a lot to him. I feel so stuck in both loving him AND hating him at the same time. So anger, yeah, I understand that.<P>Don't be mad at the forum. Maybe someone here can help you. I'm with those who suggest you ignore the hateful and spiteful posts and stick to the ones who offer good, non-judgemental advice. There were plenty on this thread. Just ignore the others. Good luck.

Dunc:<P>Chomp, chomp. Thanks for putting it in perspective. Guess I do feel a little foolish for getting all torqued up. I needed a graceful exit, and you've given it to me. So . . . . the next sound you hear will be the door slamming behind me on this thread. <P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Speak the Truth in Love.<P>Maybe we should all put a post it note up on our moniters to remind us.<P>It's OK to have different opinions. It can even be OK tell someone either their actions or ideas are wrong. Or that their actions and ideas will not help them achieve their goal. That is helping and supporting each other with a wide variety of ideas and experience.<P>You cross over the line when you are either hurtful or you label them as opposed to labeling their actions. Hate the sin, love the sinner....or disagree with the action, be supportive of the person. And aren't we all just plain old wrong sometimes? I sure know I am.<P>And just in case someone forgets? Softly point out how we do things around here or just ignore it. Let's not get our panties, briefs and/or boxers in a bunch over someone's tantrum. They may need the help the most

FHL-<P>How right you are.<P>Sorry from jumping on you PP. The bible verse was good, I just should have said it better.<P>Mac and others you are right too. Let's leave the thread and start anew.<P>God bless

Pod,<P>I'm sitting in almost the exact opposite position as you are. My H is the one who treated me badly, and he is the one who cheated, but I am the one who booted him out on his sorry butt and he is the one who has made a complete 180 to make himself more acceptable to ME. So, it can swing both ways! How's this.... my H cheated and I'm NOT SORRY he did. Now I have a H who treats me with the utmost respect and dignity because he understands how close he came to losing me and his children. If he hadn't had the affair, he probably still wouldn't get it.<P>I guess it's just a good thing that he didn't feel like you do or we would have been at a standoff.

Podperson,<P>I wanted to write because I can feel your anger and I want you to know that I understand why you have felt compelled to look elsewhere for some affection. My H is the one who cheated, but considering the way he treated me, I should have been the one who did it. Maybe six months ago I would have hollered at you and called you every name in the book, but I know now how different things can be if all sides are considered. I am sure now, with almost certainty, that if I had been in the right position and found someone who gave me the love and affection I was craving I would have jumped and had the affair. I did not use to think that, but after much investigating into myself and our relationship, I now know that to be true. I don't like myself for it, but it does give me some perspective on how and why many others cheat.<P>Believe me, I can totally understand your reasons and I have even considered doing it myself if the pain does not get better. Thank God we are on the road to recovery and I hope you will be too. Just continue to be honest with your H about how you are feeling and encourage him to do the same. I wish you the best of luck!

To Pod:Please,please e-mail me ok,i also had an affair which lasted for 1 year,although we only saw each other once in person.We talked daily on phone for several months,i ended it sunday which was 2 days ago and have posted a few times on here also.I have a post on here i wrote yesterday i think i titled it said goodbye to other man and very very sad.....check it out.Can you please e-mail me as i don't want to get into this on here it is not a right place for me i have discovered by some replies i got.Anyways i also have icq but don't want to give my number over this public forum,but if you want to e-amil me my e-mail is chatwithu35@hotmail.com I have a very similiar situation which hubby found out about 3 months ago and has been a new man.......looking forward to hearing from you soon........JANICE

Why are you even on this forum? It <BR>doesn't sound like you are 100% <BR>committed to working on your <BR>marriage? You admitted that you <BR>would cheat again...go figure...

This is a fascinating thread. The bickering aside, and I know there's a bunch of them, but I urge everyone to read each post carefully before jumping in and adding to it. As a matter of fact, don't just read each post, but take time to pause and absorb it all before adding toit. This person started off extremely angry and defensive, but even within the context of this thread has already started retracting some of the more harsh things she said at first. <P>Most of us have lived with spouses and SO's for years, trying to get them to think, feel, speak and believe just as we do. Did it work? Of course not, or else we wouldn't all be here. But for some reason, I think we come to this forum we still attempt to use that same method, pushing and pulling at each other in an all-out game of tug o war, franticly trying to get someone else to share our truth, to believe as we do, and doggone it, if they don't, we proceed to read their lives to them. Well it didn't work with our spouses and SO's, so what makes us think it's going to work with anyone else? We can't make people be who we want them to be. We can't trick, persuade, or manipulate someone into believing exactly as we do. Isn't it pretty arrogant to even try? Or if not arrogant, it's awful presumptious how we tend to cast our doom on people and their lives based on their lack of sharing our truth. <P>Anger clouds a person's true feelings and sometimes we use anger to mask pain. I've seen it with myself, so I know this method of self preservation can only last but so long. I have seen miraculous things happen when people stop being angry, put down their defenses and start opening up. But this usually happens from within, and in our own time. We can't be manipulated to it by external forces.

Circular logic.

Imago,<P>I think you hit it pretty dead on with this one. (Why don't you post more often?) I've been in a tug-o-war with my H since the day we met, trying to get him to see things my way. It has never worked. I realize that he and I are never going to get along successfully until we both start allowing each other to be who we are. <P>I'm sure this forum attracts people from all different walks of life, all different races, religions, socio-economic backgrounds, lifestyles, occupations and educational backgrounds. If we see someone post something that we don't disagree with, then we start with the force-feeding of our truth onto them. And then we have the audacity to become angry when they don't immediately see things our way!! (I saw "we" because I know I've been guilty of this too.) I mean, how dare they not believe exactly as we do? How stupid are they? Well, good, fine, don't listen to me then. Hmmmph! And we storm off in a tiff. Wow. I don't know about some of you guys, but I've played this exact scenario over and over at least a million times during my marriage. Got us nowhere except caught in an endless ride going 'round and 'round.<P>PP,<P>If you're still around and can stand the heat, please stay. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong for not feeling this or that or that you're wrong for being angry at your H. That's not my place. I do ask that you be patient with people on this forum. It does take great restraint. I practice it myself each time I come here. People are hurting and things are said. Just like the things you said in your pain. I loved what you said about "God not being finished with us yet." You are so right. God isn't finished with any of us, and as long as we keep hope alive, there is always room for change of heart. I sure hope you give the forum another try. Take care.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

New Woman,<P>I think you've made my day. If I knew how to make those little smiley faces, I'd put one right here. Thank you so much.

WOW, seems I've missed a lot! PodPerson put up with being treated badly for 20 YEARS!! And people are put off from her behavior!! PLEEEZE!!! I am surprised she was able to keep her sanity!!! When a betrayer comes in and says "Oh, I feel sooooo sorry for what I have done", everyone welcomes her/him with open arms and lets him/her speak their hearts out! But when someone says "Yes, after 20 YEARS of ABUSE, trying to communicate, trying to get H to go to counseling, etc. I cheated and I don't regret it, because it seems to have finally openned my H eyes to the seriousness of my pain"! Alot of people have a problem with condemning this woman. Yes, we all know 2 wrongs don't make a right, but come on people, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE out in the world that have to literally be hit over the head or in the heart for them to realize what they are doing to their spouse and the relationship. Sometimes it takes a "BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY" approach....I am all for rebuilding and whatever it takes to get it done then do it! GoodLuck Pod!

Trying 2_4give,<P>Thank you so much. I figured out how to make a smiley face, so here you go

Dear Podperson:<BR>I was really curious as to why you did not go for a divorce from your husband? If you feel that you would do it again, why even go through that again? Yes, you did what you did and now you are working on the marriage. BUT, if it doesn't work out, you will do it again? I would have packed his stuff and put them out on the driveway and told him see you later. After all that has happenned with your affair and him treating you like that for 20 years, which is a hell of a long time, why would you even stay with him if it doesn't work out? Just think of the 20 years that you wasted if he treated you like that, where you could have been with someone that treated you like a queen, like a wife should be treated, like you should be treated. I hope that it works out for you and your marriage. However, from reading on the post, you do sound very very angry and by all means, you should be for what has happenned to you for sooooo long. But, wouldn't it have been better to communicate with him and tell him that you demanded to be treated with respect and love, etc...and if not, then you will file for divorce? Just wondering why you didn't pursue that avenue.