FWH has been doing very well communicating with me about the A and his deep emotions since we reconcilled. This is extremely hard for him, I know. He's been a big C/A all his life (he acknowledges this)and realises it needs to change to help us recover and not repeat patterns that damaged us. I recognise within myself that what needs to change (and I'm successfully changing) is the major LB's, angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements that contributed to our marriage going wonky. We both feel we've identified most of the core issues of what was causing unhappiness in our marriage. We've looked at EN's, fortunately we both share 4 of the same ones in our top 5..not so hard to meet them then. We both feel that most are being currently met well.

So we're doing pretty well considering we've only been R for 1 month, but...

Tonight the stumbling block.

As the BS I'm finding myself wanting to know details of the A. My goal is to understand HOW it happened and WHY. What was FWH feeling during this time and how he feels now.
As is well documented here, this is the way a lot of BS's heal. Cleaing out that wound, feeling 'included' in that which we were very much excluded from..no more secrecy, no more lies. FWH has answered all my questions but has tonight told me that all though he understands it is helping me to heal, it is doing the very opposite for him. As is also well documented here he, the WS, very much wants to forget the whole thing and move forward. He is feeling that my questioning and exploring the A is tearing his wound even further open. He feels he's being grilled and dreaded coming home tonight as it's more of the same.

I do have to say that I've consciously tried to limit the amount of A talk we have and balancing it with just having 'being us' and fun. His perception is that it's relationship/A overload. It's a breakthrough that he actually told me this, he would not have done before. He has said he feels comfortable with our new communication and feels safe to be honest with me. However his words tonight were..."I knew it would be hard but I thought there would be more roses than thorns, it just feels like thorns" He seems dismayed at that fact that I still feel a need to snoop, that I probably will never trust him. He said it was the most difficult thing for a man to have his wife snoop on him. From his standpoint I DO see how frustrating it must be. He has been completly accountable, cell phone, cell phone records etc. I have no doubt the A is utterly over, yet understandbly I've some trust issues here!! He acknowledges this.

Please can anyone advise on how to strike a balance here. I have an extremely remorseful, loving H who wants to make this work. I have a great need to talk about what happened and he has an equally great need not to! He does realise that burying it without understanding and learning from it is ultimately destructive in that we're bound to recycle the same issues if they're not addressed. He feels he's learnt all there is... in 1 month is that possible? Of course I know that this early on we're going to be on completly different pages in our recovery. I think the biggest strain for him is actually coming from adapting to not C/A He's done it for 37 years after all.

He's said the main thing that he was unhappy about in our marriage were my angry outbursts, he couldn't take them anymore. He left me and the children on DDay

Now in our reconcilliation he is unhappy about my questioning, lack of trust and digging in his wound. Will he not be able to take these anymore too? Tonight has put me right back into those terrible feelings on DDay. It's gone 4.00am here, I've not slept and I feel sick.

OK so I heard him. I DO want to find a balance, I don't want to hurt him or punish him, he needs to heal too. So do I. I have to admit to feeling entilted to recieve all I need to, to recover from this. That may be wrong but that's how I feel...at the moment anyway.

Your situation is very similar to mine and we have pretty much worked through these same issues so I will relay what has worked for us. My FWW really wanted to just forget about what happened. I was like you, I needed some additional details, not to punish her or keep the wound open but to work through my own issues. Everything you stated about how you feel and why you want to know more details seems reasonable.

I believe that the reason why the truly repentent WS wants to move forward as quickly as possible is that after D-Day they feel like that they have finally reached a point that they can move forward with their lives. This is particularly true if the A has ended some time ago and they have already dealt with the fog, etc. But for the BS the wound is fresh and the pain has to be given time and air in order to begin to truly heal.

I have communicated to my FWW that the reason why that I need to know details are severalfold but include the following:

1) Trying to fill in the pieces of what little I did know directly after D-Day just let my imagination go wild. What I imagined was far worse than the truth.

2) The first cut is the deepest. Once I knew that she had slept with someone else and the dishonesty that she engaged in even long after the A was over caused far more pain than any additional details that I would find out. My biggest fear was that I would find out sometime later well into recovery that she had not told me the truth or had omitted things that she did not find relevant but that I might. If this would have happened, the setback in the trust regaining process would have been significant.

3) I didn't really need the gory details but I did want to understand what was going through her mind when she made those fateful decisions...to start the relationship, our R while it was occurring and how that it ended. Once I learned these things, it helped me to understand how the affair happened and more importantly what signs where all over the place that I did not see at the time. This was critical to regain trust in her.

I know that there is no way that she would ever take this path again. We have both worked hard on rebuilding our relationship and are happier than ever. However, part of my conditions early on to recommit to the marriage were for us to both adopt a policy of radical honesty and POJA. Her being willing to discuss whatever issues that I wanted to discuss regarding the A was a huge step towards me seeing her committment to rebuild the marriage and to have a committment to RH. We also POJA'd the boundaries for these types of discussions, when they would occur, acceptable reactions to revelations (i.e. no LB's) and that either could stop the discussion at any time with the agreement that we would come back to that topic soon. This POJA was the foundation for us to create a safe environment where the A could be discussed.

As much as your WH wants to avoid this topic, he should understand that it is just as important to him to be fully disclosing as it is for you. Even though my FWW was relieved when D-Day came and finally she had the opportunity to not have to compartmentize what had happened (ten years later) and carry that burden of guilt around, it was not until the point that we were done discussing the details of the A that I needed and had worked through those issues to first accept and then forgive her that she was able to finally forgive herself. She knows that she was a different person when the A happened and she can't change the poor choices that she made. But after we had worked through this together, she started to realize that it was not the A that defined either of us, rather how we chose to deal with it, including her ownership of the A, and what we both needed to do to make our M something that we are proud of and can move forward with.

I would suggest a couple of things for you. First, encourage your husband to come on here and read through some of the posts of BS to get a better idea of how that they dealt with these issues and worked through them. Secondly, both of you should read the Policy of Radical Honesty and commit to following that fully if you want to move your M to a level that it has never been before. A's are inherently dishonest and secretive. Dishonesty and secrecy between spouses in a marriage is a kiss of death, even if the dishonesty is merely an ommission. If you both have created a safe environment to openly communicate, there should be nothing including discussing the A that should bother each of you communicating.

Practice makes perfect. Often instead of asking for details specifically about my W's A I will use the third person...i.e. I was reading something on MB that I didn't understand (explain whatever the issue is that I want more information on) could you tell me if you ever experienced that or could help me understand that? Framing in this way allows my FWW to open up and know that whatever she tells me is not going to be used against her. Just a few thoughts. Good luck.

Willow,

1. The Xws is babbling..... why? Because his 1st concern as a person in recovery s/b meeting your needs.

2. You both s/b in counseling to help you develope a solid plan.


Can you call Steve for some MB phone counseling?

L.

I agree with Orchid. Your FWH does not "get it." His priority should be on helping you heal, not on further protecting himself.

He spent months "protecting himself" during the affair. Now he is facing the natural consequences of all that (your pain, his guilt) and doesn't like the way it feels, so his first reaction is (again) to protect *himself* instead of protecting *his family.*

He is uncomfortable. You are in agony. Whose need is greater?

As long as his personal comfort is more important to him than righting a great wrong and healing a terrible wound, you are going to have a very, very difficult time healing.
Mulan

With all due respect to Mulan and Orchid, I am not sure I agree with them except in theory.
I too pushed my WH into R-overload. After finding out the affair lasted 8 months, and OW was reluctant to honor NC it took a great deal to get a grip on myself. My WH was not good at communicating before the A, and it certainly didn't improve after. Yes he sincerely felt bad and tried to help me as best he could, but when he said, I can't remember or I don't know what I was thinking, he really meant it. Watching TV, or certain songs, or just casual conversation would send my mind spinning off into fantasy land wondering where was he that time? did they ever talk about this? that kind of thinking. And when I think, I talk. He was seeing his counselor, reading and doing everything we could think of to get back on the right track but I had a really hard time not bringing it up.

I just felt bad about it one day, and decided to write my questions down for another time, a better time, and not ruin the moment thinking about that right now. I still take that just for today approach, and write down what I have to. Only once in the last 2 months have I brought out the list to actually ask about something, he answered my question, and I put it away again. As time goes by, I feel less compelled to know everything, as I begin to feel more secure.

Time will help, if you can hang in there. Maybe our idea will too.

Thankyou so much for your responses.

You're right he doesn't 'get it' and even though I've explained time and time again WHY I need this information he does not see how it is helpful to me...it hurts me and it hurts him. Even though he knows the questions/snooping are not intended as such, he feels they are a punishment.

"He spent months "protecting himself" during the affair. Now he is facing the natural consequences of all that (your pain, his guilt) and doesn't like the way it feels, so his first reaction is (again) to protect *himself* instead of protecting *his family."

This is how I see it but I also see his pain. I need help healing but we are also rebuilding our marriage on a different playing field. When considering the following from POJA...


Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement
between you and your spouse.
This rule teaches couples to become thoughtful and sensitive to each other's feelings when they don't feel like it. If both spouses follow this policy, they avoid all the Love Busters because they won't mutually agree to anything that hurts one of them.


How can that be intergrated into this situation?

I've managed to eliminate many of the LB's that occured in the past. FWH has noticed this big time and is very impressed. He in turn is working on his well. It would seem now that A talk is a LB for him. A neccessary LB for me though.

I have suggested that to reach more of a balance we schedule a time to talk instead of me just 'pouncing' on him. Also we're going to try writing down questions and responses.

"when he said, I can't remember or I don't know what I was thinking, he really meant it"

twoblue this is my FWH too. He's always been that way and it's not something he's now implementing to deflect answering difficult questions. He has said that he feels so incredibly frustrated that I just don't seem to believe him when he says these things. Of course I used to believe him implicitly but my trust has now been savaged by a rabid dog. I've explainded to him that although I do believe he is now being honest...he's certainly being more open and honest than he's ever been...self preservation and recent history will naturally leave me with some doubts and insecurties. I've also explained that the more I snoop and probe and the more I find nothing the more secure that makes me feel.

Yesterday we rowed...I said I have the right to know all that went on and all that is currently going on with him. He responded that he has the right to not have his life turned upside down by me searching for stuff that is simply not there. He later retracted this. He understands there can be no privacy anymore. I have 'uncovered' nothing new only bills from when the A was underway. He is being an open book. He hides nothing but I still have a compulsion to snoop. Do I have a right to snoop? How could I handle it better?

Thankyou for listening

Willow

WW, you do have a right to snoop, but I would suggest being more discreet about it, lest it just cause problems. Snooping should not become an issue between you if you do it right. Do it discreetly and only mention it if you find something troubling. You should probably watch your back until he has re-established trust again, however long that takes.

If you haven't tried the writing approach before, it was something that was helpful for my wife and I. It gave my wife time to think through her questions and it gave me time to think through my answers. It wasn't that I was trying to hide anything, but she is an extrovert who pops out the questions and wants an answer. I am an introvert who mulls over a question and then gives and answer. So writing was an advantage. It also took out a lot of the emotion that seemed to flair up at times, which was helpful too.

Hi Willow.
I always asked FWH what crossed my mind in the early stages, and he rarely tired of giving me the answers I needed. He viewed it as his job in recovery, after all the pain he caused, to dig deep into his thoughts and patterns and try to help me understand how it happened. It's the least the FWS can do to make things better. You called it "his wound" - he has a wound?? What would that be? YOU have a wound!

Please assure your FWH that this gets much much better over time. The more of it you deal with openly and w/o LB's now, the sooner you can heal. Really. The questions pop up minute by minute the first weeks, then hour by hour, then day by day after a few months, and now 8 mos into recovery I almost never have questions about why the A happened, or what happened. The most that happens is we will want to take a trip or something and I will want to establish whether they ever went to that place and where they stayed, etc. That's about it. You really do move on, and then he can too. BUT NOT UNTIL YOU ARE READY - he has to wait for you! No skipping ahead, no shortcuts!

There did come a point where I stopped bringing up A stuff (after a few months?) every time I thought of it. But then hours later it would usually slip out anyway (the question I was wondering about). As you might notice, I'm not that good at holding my feelings inside! But I would think, "here we are, having a nice time, and he's not thinking about OW at all. If I ask this question, then he will be. Why would I want to be the cause of him thinking about her???" and then I could hold my tongue until at least a better time.

As Jennifer, our MB coach, taught us also, "not everything has to be dealt with RIGHT THEN." I always figured it did. Like catching your dog piddling on the floor - you have to catch him in the act and correct the behavior. I found out marriage isn't like that. I'm not his parent, and I don't need to correct him. I can tell him what happened and how it made me feel...later. At a less emotional time when we can both listen with loving ears and be reasonable.

As far as snooping, I agree 100% with MelodyLane - why is he knowing you are snooping? Yes you need to snoop, no he does not need to know unless something upsets you. Even then, you say you just "came across it" etc - if saying "I was doing my weekly wallet check, and came across this phone number" causes resentment in him, then obviously "I was looking to borrow your library card, and saw this phone number?" works better. Don't hit me with the Radical-Honesty noodle just yet, MBers! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I know I'm asking for it!

As AskMe said, writing can be good too. And I would love to see you two do MB phone counseling/coaching with Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers.

NTL/MSA