Hi, I'm fairly new here, been lurking a little for a while. You all seem like great people with good advice, and I'm wondering if I could get some. My situation may be quite similar to some. I'm the BS (36) and my husband (WS) is 37. We've been married for 15 years and have one wonderful son who's 11. D-day #1 was 2-02-05. He'd been having an affair (EA, for the most part, I believe) for a year at that point. I had suspected there were feelings between the two of them about 7 months prior to d-day (she was a friend and we spent a lot of time with her and her family), but while he admitted he was "slightly attracted" to her, he denied that there was anything beyond that. He continued to insist on spending time with her family because I was just being paranoid and why should we end a friendship over paranoia. I tried to convince myself everything was okay and that I really was being irrational. Unfortunately I was even more right on than I ever wanted to be. D-day #1 came about because OW finally felt guilty enough to tell her BS. As a result my WS told me. I don't think he ever would have otherwise. We went to counseling for a few months and then the counselor told us he thought he'd helped us as much as he could and that we were doing so well he thought we'd be fine on our own. I felt panicked inside, knowing that most of the progress my WS had been a farce. I was once again more right than I wanted to be. D-day #2 was 7-21-05 – our 15th anniversary. Turns out he'd begun seeing her and "communicating" with her again right after we finished counseling. He's never been apologetic about what he's done. He says he's sorry he hurt me, but it's more like he's sorry I had to get hurt in his quest for "true love." He says he knows what he's done is wrong, but he's not sorry he's done it. He says he loves me but isn't "in love" with me anymore. He says we had problems from the beginning and that our marriage was a mess and was 15 years of misery. While there were definitely moments of misery and while I can definitely admit I haven't always been the perfect wife, it hurts me deeply that he won't acknowledge the good that was there. After D-day #2 he was even more defiant, stating that he could not promise that he would never see her or talk to her again, and basically that she was the only one he could be happy with and he truly didn't believe he could ever be happy again with me. In fact, about a month later he basically told me that he would have already left if she hadn't said no. She continued to say no to leaving her family but also kept saying yes to seeing him. Finally she decided she couldn't live like that anymore and broke it off with him again. He told me it wasn't necessarily a permanent break, however, so I wrote her a letter, appealing to her scruples, and took it to her house. We talked for 45 minutes and ended with her promising to not call him, but saying she couldn't promise she wouldn't talk to him if she "ran into him." I believe that's where it remains right now, about 5 weeks later. I don't believe they've had any real contact since then, beyond seeing each other from a distance (and NOT talking, I believe). My WH says he's staying "for now," but won't make any commitments or promises about staying or about not seeing her again. He's very defiant about that. We've been trying to sell our house for about 6 months and haven't had any bites. We were planning on moving about 3 hours away, but that didn't work out either. We may do it next summer, assuming he's still with us. There's no physical affection between us (beyond the perfunctory goodbye or good night kiss occasionally) --his choice, not mine --and hasn't been for almost a year. I've been in Plan A without knowing it was Plan A ever since I confronted him about her and he denied everything almost a year and a half ago. I've been working on me – improving myself in every way I can, trying to be a better wife, mother and person. Trying to live closer to God and do what's right in this situation and in everything. I know I've made a ton of progress, and he knows it too. He admits I've improved myself greatly, but says he doesn't know if I'll continue this way or backslide. It's interesting that he has NO perception of having made any mistakes in our marriage. He believes (he's actually told me this) that all of our problems stemmed from MY personal problems. While I'll admit that my self perception hasn't been the greatest through the years and that I really have made a lot of mistakes, it's ridiculous that he can't see his own faults and failings. I truly believe that many of the mistakes I made were in the way I responded to mistakes he made. We both have culpability in the way our marriage was failing before the affair, but he blames it all on me and can't believe I can make permanent changes.

So, basically my question is, am I still in Plan A? And for how long? I have made a tentative plan with my church leader that I will stay and continue Plan A until February, which will be the one year anniversary of D-day #1. If he's still defiant and isn't willing to re-commit to me and commit to NC, I may move on to Plan B at that point. Am I waiting too long? If she's committed to NC but he hasn't is it okay to stay in Plan A for a while? I know we will both continue to see her occasionally – we live in a small town and attend church in the same building (not in the same congregation, but our meeting times overlap and I know he sees her in the halls). If she can remain strong and not see or talk to him, maybe we can make it even here? Am I being naive, or optimistic? OW has finally told her BS about the relapse, so now at least everyone's aware of the situation as it stands now. I would appreciate any and all advice, especially from those who've had success when WS wouldn't commit to NC but OP would.

Once again, I think you are all strong, inspiring people and I appreciate the help I've gotten from you just in my lurking. Good luck to everyone.

Workin_on_me
I

Hello workin on me,

Welcome to MB although I am sorry you are here for Infidelity.

First let me say that weekends are pretty slow here so don't worry if you don't get many responses right away.This board is very busy and people usually start checking back in late Sunday and then during the week.Of course there will also be some of us around regardless of what day it is.

Ok.Your story is a classic one and I know it's not much consolation but at least you can know you are not alone.Everything your WH has said and done is classic WS stuff.Everything.Most importantly the blame shifting,lack of remorse,fence sitting/cake eating which means he just can't make up his mind which life to follow(reality or fantasy) and also the ILYBINILWY(I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You) line.See? We even have that down to an acronym it's so common.

The best thing to do at this point is to have a plan and since you are here,we will recommend Dr.Harley's approach.You can also get other information too but his plans and principles are the best I have found and that's true for many of us here.You do have to face the very real possibility that the marriage could end.I am not saying that it will,but it's just reality.It is very hard for marriage to be saved after this kind of betrayal but if you follow the guidelines here,that is your best chance.

Facing all possible outcomes is one way not to feel so let down and like a failure.Be clear about this though: no matter what you did in the marriage,it is never cause for cheating.Even if there is abuse,the person should end the marriage first rather than go out and cheat.It's a purely selfish,hurtful and inappropriate way of handling problems and YOUR WH is the one with the problems.He can blame you for having all 15 years of marriage being the worst ever( lies) but that is what WS's do,they rewrite history to justify their A(Affair),anyway they can.So don't believe that ok?

If you think you have been doing a Plan A of sorts for some time now then do consider and read up on Plan B, read all our concepts here if you have not and check out our MB bookstore.It sounds like your WH is firmly set in "me" mode.Can't give up OW just yet,can't promise not to talk or see her again,can't commit to the marriage,in essence can't do anything right,especially that he has a son to think about (not doing so) and what he is showing his son is just abominable.You will,at some point and probably very soon,take yourself out of the equation and see just how grand it is living without you in his life as you have been.This isn't so much about what changes you have made but rather what is he going to do now? You could be the perfect wife but the **problems still reside in the cheater.That will ALWAYS be there until HE gets help.Don't let him make you the cause of his cheating.Always call him on that in a calm and respectful but firm manner.Do not accept that blame.It's not yours to have.

A very important part of any recovery is that your WH NEVER,and I mean NEVER see this homewrecking OW again.That is non-negotiable.So,as long as there are these chances meetings,passings by,brief encounters,etc,there is no chance.This is why Dr.Harley says that moving away to a different state or town may be necessary if there cannot be complete no contact(NC).Your WH cannot develop and keep feelings for you as long as the OW is in the picture.

Can you contact the OW's husband at all? He could be an ally in helping the A end.See if you can contact him.This way you can compare information/alleged stories and keep updated on progress or further problems.Also,you do need to think about the fact that the OW's husband may not actually know anything.It would be a classic move to lie about this(happens all the time) so try to confirm this if you can.OW are liars and cheats just as WS's are.You definitely cannot take her "word" for anything ok?

How is your son doing? Is he aware of what's going on?

Hope this helps to start.

O

O,

Thanks so much for your reply. I have read similar stories here and knew I could get some good help. First off, I know OW's BH knows because he came to my husband two weeks ago at church and told him. It's funny how he seems to want to talk to my WH even after all the betrayal. So, I know he knows but I don't know what either of us can do. I don't think they're going to move and we really can't move until we sell our house unless WH agrees to something more radical for now like renting out our house and moving anyway. But he won't. I wanted to move this summer despite not having the perfect job to go to, but he refused and I ended up not pushing it. Turns out part of the reason for his reluctance to leave was that he was seeing her again. The housing market here is really bad for sellers right now, so I don't know how long it's going to take us. And even then I believe he'll continue to find reasons not to leave. Does this automatically mean I need to move to plan B? Or can I give us a little more time in plan A? I know I need and want to order some of Dr. Harley's books, as I'm sure I'll find some of these answers there.

As for our son, he does know we're struggling in our marriage but that "we" are trying to work things out. I think he senses more is going on but he never asks questions about it and I really hesitate to tell him any more than I have to. He has asked WH why we don't do any fun things with the family of OW any more and WH said somthing like "We should ask them over again, shouldn't we?" But my son is wonderful, and is the glue that has gotten us this far. WH has told me that he is the biggest reason he hasn't left yet.
Once again, thanks so much for your reply. And good luck to you in what you're going through as well.

WOM

Hi again,

I happen to be reading a lot this morning so I will just reply again if that's ok. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


This is good news.At least it's confirmed and one less issue to deal with.I do hope that he is more angry than resigned.You both are in a fight for your marriages and it takes strength,courage and patience to get through the process.You cannot back down or be anything but firm with your boundaries and values.What your WH and the OW did and are doing is so wrong,selfish and destructive,you have to treat it as such.There is no romance or soulmate veneer to all this,it's sick.Do you know if your WH and OW have had sex? It's just an EA so far as you know correct?

Moving doesn't have to be an option just yet but it s necessary for those couples who want to recover and may either work with the OP or live nearby.We are also going into winter time and home selling can be very difficult.I would say put that on the back burner for now.If anything,yor WH may need to move out at some point if he refuses to stop contact with OW.For may it comes down to needing a seapration agreement but we aren't quite at that stage either,just reviewing what might soon be ahead for you.

As for Plan A,if you want to try doing it for a bit longer and more precisely,then I would say ok.Give yourself a time frame but be sure to stick to it and don't do it for too long.It's not intended to be done that way and may have the opposite effects of what you want.If your WH sees any cracks in your facade and that he can manipulate your plans then it will not help you nor your marriage.

Also,IMO,be sure to tell your WH that there can be no more meetings with the OW and her family.This is just plain wrong/ inappropriate.It also sends a wrong message to your son even though he doesn't fully understand yet.This does involve the other family and at some point,you may need to be more open about why you don't spend more time with them.

And,please be sure to watch your son carefully.When a child doesn't know all the facts,it can sometimes be much worse than the actual knowledge.It would put all the pieces to the puzzle in place and he can make his own judgement.The last thing he should feel in any way is that this is his fault or that he could have somehow prevented the problems by being,say,a better son.I am sure you are already telling him this but I just wanted to point it out as what I talked to my own children about.Your son may not ask questions but I am sure he must be scared and insecure inside.Keep the lines of communication open always.

O

WOM,

Welcome to MB. So sorry you're hurting....we know just how awful this is. :sad:

Dr. H recommends 3 months for women and 6 for men as far as Plan A guidelines go. However, with the holidays on the horizon....I don't think February would be a bad boundary except for one thing.....he will not agree to no contact....a deal breaker to be sure. Why are you willing to spend all this time improving yourself, when he won't respect you enough to even commit to ending contact? Were there any "conditions" for reconciliation like counseling that he agreed to? In short....what consequences at all occurred because of the affair (besides you being heartbroken). Without these....do you realize that you're basically an unwilling partner in helping to facilitate the affair? Why should he change when you've stayed without changes? Second D-days are as close as there is to a perfect time to Plan B. I recommend it strongly for mulitiple d-days and relapses. Without clear boundaries....it's too easy to enable fence sitting/cake eating. Because of your precious son....and the upcoming holidays for him....a couple of more months is reasonable...but please....after Christmas, let H know that if he can't commit to no contact, counseling, openess and honesty etc....that you'll be removing yourself from his chaos. Be clear. Be strong. He'll respect you more, you'll respect yourself more....and it will do more to move you into recovery than any long term Plan a possibly can.

hugs!!!

Thanks again O, of course it's okay if you reply again -- I welcome your insight.

And Thanks SF, too.

You both raise good questions -- some I've been asking myself all along.

As far as I know the A was physical to some extent, maybe a large extent but there wasn't any intercourse (can I say that here? what does sf mean? I wasn't sure if it applied.) I really do believe this, but I know it wasn't because it wasn't wanted, and I suspect OW is the one who stopped it from going there.

SF,
I really have struggled with knowing whether to let him stay with no commitment. I guess I'm just hoping he'll figure out that she won't take him back (another hope) and that this is where he will find happiness. I'm really afraid that if he leaves it will be the end of it, so I'm very reluctant to go to plan B yet. Also, not many people know about the A and that would bring it out in the open, which I think could also cause him to make it permanent.

I agree that after the holidays there needs to be a commitment of some degree if this is going to continue. I personally don't think I could do it any longer than that.

As for DS, another struggle for me. How much do I tell him? WH doesn't want him to know, of course, and though I don't want to use threats I have told him that I can't guarantee he won't find out if WH leaves. Of course WH insists that the A isn't the only issue in our marriage and that if he leaves I shouldn't tell people about it. "It's none of their business," he says. I need to get some more info on exposure, too. Another great reason to buy a book, huh?

Well, again, thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to help!

WOM

HI WOM,

Welcome to MB. This site has been my lifeline and I hope you find the support you need here.

My WH sounds just like yours. No remorse, he said the ILYBINILWY to me too. By the way, that is the #1 line spoken by cheaters everywhere. If you hear that from you beloved, there is an OP.

In my case, the OW was also my friend. In fact, I introduced them to each other. She told me that she would stay away and she didn't. Affairs are all about the lies and the fantasy world they create. There are a few things you really need to read.

1. Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley
2. Bob Pure's BS toolkit. It's on this forum but I can't figure out how to put a link to it here. If you go to my thread "How long till the the fog lifts?" and one of the responses has the link that you can click. It is wonderful and he is a vet that has survived and thrived after the affair his beloved "Squid" had.
3. Everything on this site about Plan A and Plan B.

Maybe the OW's BS could benefit from this site. Maybe a call or a lunch date with him will help you both in putting the affair to rest.

Something that helps me deal with my sitch is to think of my WH as an alien. This is not the man you fell in love with and have spent all these years caring for. He will reconstruct marital history to justify his choices. He will do everything he can to divert blame to you and off of himself. Learn how to reverse babble. You will need it. He will say the most outrageous things that you know aren't true.

Lastly, take care of you. If you are depressed, get medication and/or counseling. This time will be the most difficult time in your life. If you have had problems with self esteem in the past, it will be even harder for you to maintain a healthy self esteem now.

My heart goes out to you because I have been where you are. I remember the heartache and the confusion. Please remember that you are not at fault for the affair. That was his decision. You made mistakes as we all have. No one can fix problems in a marriage by going outside of it. That was his choice.

<<<hugs>>>
Loni

Hi,

In case you need them,there is a list of acronyms on the JFO(Just Found Out) board.SF means sexual fulfillment,a common need for most couples.We talk a lot about EN's(emotional needs) here and how they can help a marriage thrive or deteriorate,but *partly so.As for the A being physical but there not being any intercourse( yes you can say that and more) I would be suspicious that it hadn't progressed to that stage as they may claim.

Also,for your son,I would suggest counseling for you to try and ascertain what and how much you should tell him.All children are different in what they can handle and you would want to cover all bases before leaking anymore info out to him.In my case, I have 2 daughters,now aged 11 and 13(almost 14).I eventually told them that daddy had a "girlfriend" and that is was very wrong while daddy and mommy are still married.I explained that it was inappropriate and it hurt mommy.I told the truth and only the basic facts BUT,what was especially important was that they knew it was not in any way their fault,that they couldn't have done anything to prevent it,that we both still loved them and that would never change.

I also talked about ** choices and consequences,basic right and wrong behavior and problem solving of which my WH wasn't do the right thing.I always brought it back to the actions of people and how they can help or hurt other's.This was no different.Yes my WH was their Dad but even loved ones and family members can hurt you and treat you badly.No matter what you say or not,it still hurts.The family is altered and kids need stability.

Check with your childs doctor or a counselor.etc as to what to say or not.This is what I did in conjunction with reading a lot of books about the subject.You know your son best and you can just try to be as educated as you can and make an informed decision.

Many/most WS's don't want much to be said because it's makes them look bad.But,their actions make them look bad and what's worse is when they don't make ammends and do the right thing.Setting a bad example all along the way.

As for Plan B,try not to be reluctant to do it if need be.Many people are afraid,that is true.But it's usually the best option out of all of this to pull the WS off the fence and make them see what they are about to lose.If they don't care then you know that what you thought of as your marriage wasn't really a marriage anyway.It's like a reality test.A sobering thought but it cuts right to the chase.In my case again,my WH wasn't willing to make any changes to make our marriage work and was willing to let it die.So,what did I actually have? Nothing.My marriage was dead and it's taken me these past 2 years to come to terms with that.But,as Dr.Phil says I would rather be healthy and alone than sick and with someone.I feel so much better not being with the man my H has now become.It was a very sad time for me but that is life.I cannot change who he is.

Plan B was a life saver for me and I really became much better in it as have a lot of folks here.It's actually a healing time to be in it,safe and away from the WS A and actions that hurt us so much.Take comfort in it,when the time comes.

O

P.S. Star*fish is AWESOME! I am glad she popped over to respond to you.

WOM,

I really have struggled with knowing whether to let him stay with no commitment.

With the biochemistry of the affair in place...still creating the "foggy spouse" syndrome...real "commitment" is probably NOT realistic. That does not, however mean that meeting minimal "conditions" like no contact and counseling are not reasonable even if his feelings about you are still foggy. It's the only ethical way to end the affair or the marriage....and he owes it to himself as well as you (AND HIS SON!) to give your family a chance for survival. That won't happen if he refuses to end contact.

I guess I'm just hoping he'll figure out that she won't take him back (another hope) and that this is where he will find happiness.

You're giving away an awful lot of power chere....you're allowing two other people to determine YOUR future instead of being the captain of your own ship. If you're willing to take him "by default" with no changes on his part....then what prevents this from happening again? Either with her...or someone new? You are essentially hanging on to the same vulnerable marriage you already had.

I'm really afraid that if he leaves it will be the end of it, so I'm very reluctant to go to plan B yet. Also, not many people know about the A and that would bring it out in the open, which I think could also cause him to make it permanent.

These are two of the biggest fears that all betrayed spouses have....and it's why we often say that fighting infidelity is so counter-intuitive. Your fear that Plan B will more likely end the marriage is the exact opposite of what it is most likely to do....end the AFFAIR. And EXPOSURE of the affair....people finding out....destroys the secrecy that fuels affairs!! The BEST thing that could happen if you want this affair over is for more people to know about it. Bringing affairs "out in the open" does more to dampen the chemistry than any other single tool in the infidelity arsenal. How much harder would it be for these two people to face the censure of people they respect....if folks knew what they were doing? Biochemically, some of the things that helps create feelings of excitement (and increase of neurostimulants like dopamine and norephenephrine) are secrecy and adversity. Exposure and Plan B do more to interfere with those elements than any "improvements" you can make on yourself.

I agree that after the holidays there needs to be a commitment of some degree if this is going to continue. I personally don't think I could do it any longer than that.

I know how hard it is....most of us do....hugs!!

As for DS, another struggle for me. How much do I tell him? WH doesn't want him to know, of course, and though I don't want to use threats I have told him that I can't guarantee he won't find out if WH leaves.

Your son is very young....be honest but sparse if the time comes where it's impossible to prevent his knowing.

Of course WH insists that the A isn't the only issue in our marriage and that if he leaves I shouldn't tell people about it. "It's none of their business," he says. I need to get some more info on exposure, too. Another great reason to buy a book, huh?


This is typical fogged spouse logic....don't buy into it. Why should you have to keep his ugly secrets? The translation of it is: "I'm not comfortable letting other people know about how unethical I am....and I'm making it your job to help me fool them, otherwise I'm going to be mad at you and tell you it's over!".

Does any of this make some sense?

hugs!!!

Star,

You are exactly right. Of course he doesn't want anyone to know. Then he would have to be accountable to more people than just his W. My WS said them same thing. He was angry for a long time over me telling people what was going on. My response is and was, that if he doesn't want people to know what he is doing...then maybe he needs to stop what he's doing. If the A is so good and wonderful and "right" (gag), then shouldn't they be screaming it from the hilltops?

The fog is thick in this BS' world.

Loni

Of course you are all right that it's obvious why exposure is unpalatable to him. I suppose he's saying in part that if it's over I shouldn't beat a dead horse. I guess if it really was over that would be true, but he's still not even willing to commit to ending it, so what am I supposed to do? I told him tonight that I'm not willing to keep his secrets because this kind of thing thrives on secrecy. I'm sure you've all heard this before too, but he HATES it when I call it an "affair" because it was "so much more than that." (GAG!!) Anyway, I actually have seen some improvement in attitude the last couple of days and I'm hoping we're getting somewhere. I'm still keeping all options open (including plan B, as much as it scares me), looking to January or February for a re-evaluation unless something major happens between now and then. I think I'll ask him in the next couple of weeks if he's willing to at least commit to nc or mc.
Star, you're right about me allowing them to make the decisions for me. I'm just not sure at this point what I'm willing/able to do differently. I don't plan on letting my marriage always be this vulnerable, I know that for sure. I figure if he does stay then we'll have time to work on US. I guess I'm assuming he'll be willing to at that point. But if he's not that's another time for re-evaluation.

Once again, I appreciate the time you've all taken for me.
(((hugs)))
WOM

Hi WOM,

I have felt like you are feeling now. I know how hard it it to even think of anything but the A. It consumes you and controls your actions. It feels completely foreign to do anything for you.

I went through the 'babysitting' phase where I tried to make sure that I or my children were with my H all the time so he couldn't carry on the A. Talk about making myself crazy. No one wants to be treated like a child. Your spouse included. I finally gave up that approach. Thank God.

I am very serious about taking care of you. Your H will not and probably can not care for you right now. By that I mean that he will not meet your emotional needs. You still have those needs and you were probably used to having them met by him. Now you have to have those needs met by yourself, friends, any children you have and ultimately by God Himself. You will have a really hard time following plan A if you don't keep fuel in your own tank. I ran empty not that long ago and attempted an OD. I would have hurt my kids so much if I hadn't changed my mind and decided to take care of me. It wouldn't have been worth it. All I could think about was ending the pain. Thank God I finally came to the realization that the pain would have only ended for me. It would have continued in my childrens hearts and my family's. They are completely innocent and in no way do they deserve to carry that kind of burden.

Sorry to thread jack. I am just worried about you and your state of mind. Please please please continue reading from this site or read everything you can on extramarital affairs. Your H is in the fog. Be a beacon of truth. You can't drag him toward the light but you can shine as brightly as you can. He may decide to ignore the truth but he will not be able to ignore that the truth exists. You understand what I am saying? Sometimes I tend to ramble a bit. he he he.

The affair is your enemy. Remember that and treat it as it's own entity.

Much love and hugs to you.
Loni

Loni,
Thanks so much for your concern. Actually, right now my state of mind is pretty good. This whole thing is definitely a roller coaster though, isn't it? I have been in a place where I was hangin' on by my fingernails, too, but right now I truly don't feel that way. I've been getting help from my church leaders and a few great friends and things are okay for me right now. I just want to do what I need to do to save my M, so coming here is going to help too, I think.

I have been trying to take care of me and I have been working on letting God help me through this -- and He has -- immensely.

Thanks again for your concern, and I'm glad you're in a better place right now as well.

Hang in there!

WOM

Is it best if I ask all of my questions on this same thread? I have a new one.

How can I meet WH's en's when he doesn't want me to? Won't even tell me what they are. Just seems to feel guilty or angry when I try. He hasn't wanted SF for well over a year -- I'm willing, he hasn't been.

To review, he hasn't agreed to NC (well, he did back in February, while we were in counseling, but it didn't stick, obviously, and now he won't even agree to try.) and says he would be gone already if OW would take him. She WANTS to take him but has decided to do the right thing. She has agreed to NC (hasn't sent him a letter that I know of, however) but has told me she doesn't know if she could be strong enough to not talk to him if she "ran into" him. We've both run into her since, but the times I've been there there wasn't any "contact."

Anyway, I just received my first and second Harley books, Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs. I plan to read both of them right away and I assume they'll answer some of my questions, but I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about whether it's even possible to meet his needs when he doesn't want me to.

He comes home late, falls asleep on the couch, comes to bed about 2-3 am, has a really hard time getting up in the morning. Gets to work late (and gets DS11 to school late) every day. I really think he's in depression, but he refuses counseling of any kind and all doctor visits regarding depression. I'm assuming this is fairly typical, but how do we get past this? Does the fog have ANY chance of lifting when he doesn't want it to?

I welcome any and all help. Sorry this is a little rambling... Thanks!

WOM

You've done a long enough Plan A, and don't want to do Plan B until after the holidays. You might try the 180 degree plan from divorce busting I think.

It has worked for some people here. There is a whole list, but it basically comes down to not relying on him to meet your needs, not talking about your relationship, seemingly moving on without him.

I will look for it, but I have a terrible time with the search function here. It is called the Michelle Weiner Davis 180 degree plan, or something like that.

Hi wom,

In my opinion,yes,do keep your situation going on one thread if you can.It gets confusing to other's when we have more than one to try and follow.

YOU:

DR.HARLEY:

Many people advise trying Plan A tactics when the A is ongoing.And to me,that is ok within reason but it very common for WS's NOT to be interested or receptive to any EN filling when they are in an A.If they are getting needs met from the OP and that is where their attention is(on the FANTASY) then it is very hard to accept anything from the BS.This is where the focus should be on what Dr.Halrey mentions: no LB's or DJ's,negotiating/discussing the end of the A,no angry outbursts or demands,etc.

Living life well and continuing on despite the fact that your spouse is cheating is the way proceed.A needy, wishy washy,depressed BS isn't attractive even though we may feel this to our very depths.

Plan B like we discussed beofre will be necessary if your WH doesn't stop the contact/A and seek out counseling with you.Of course your WH sounds like he is a mess.They all are to varying degrees.My WH lost several jobs and looked positively disheveled most of the time,like he had been through the wringer and boy,was I furious at this homerwrecker for doing this to my WH.Of course he did most of it to himself but in the beginning I blamed the homewrecker a lot more.

The fog isn't going to lift until something starts to change in HIM.It could be that he sees the OW for what she really is and that can occur when they actually live together and are not having chance meetings all based on fantasy.Or,it could be when he realizes how much pain and suiffering life can really throw at you when a divorce threat starts getting thrown around and how much all that is going to cost.Or it could be the loss of time with their children.For some they never can pull themselves out of their terrible slump and are depressed.They see no way out,caught in the middle of two lives.Truly sickening and sad.

But you have to maintain your plan and stick to it and take care of yourself and kids/child.He has to WANT to change and get help.That is HIS dilemma.The alternative is to see if this "relationship" with the OW is going to survive and most end at some point.A big risk he is taking on someone who is a co-conspirator in the destruction of marriage and family.

It would not be surprising that these two couldn't stop contact depsite all their claims which is why you must think that he is being dishonest first and look at his ACTIONS.Actions speak louder than words ok? Keep that in mind.

Read the books and absorb them.Also,if I may suggest,the book: "NOT Just Friends" by Shirley Glass was a realy insightful one for me and other's.

Hang in there~

O

Believer,

I think that instinctively I've been trying out some of these plans without even knowing it (and with the help of a very dear, insightful friend). Lately my plan has been to basically not rely on him for my needs, not talk about R too much (very difficult for me at times) and basically let him know that while I really, really want to stay in this marriage and work things out, I'll be okay either way. I have tried to meet his physical needs (I'm talking food, laundry, etc.), taken care of DS, and demonstrated a willingness but hopefully not a desperate need to meet his en's. I've tried to be cheerful, happy, active, pleasant and all that. I think I've done okay with it so far. I don't know that it will bring the end result I really want, but at the very least it makes me feel strong and empowered. I usually feel good about how I'm handling the sitch and truly feel that I'm doing what I should be doing. I need to read up on the 180 degree plan, because it would probably give me some more concrete ideas on how to act. Thanks for the tip!

O,
Thanks again for replying. I totally agree that I need to maintain a happy, productive appearance -- and that it is sooooo hard sometimes!

how do I know if they are in contact? Can I ask him directly, not relying on his ability to tell the truth, or is it a LB to even ask? Do I have to figure it out some other way? Or do I just pretend like it's not happening unless I get slapped in the face with it again?

I do think that Plan B may be necessary at some point, but I'm definitely not ready for it now. Thanks to you, Believer and Octobergirl for your time and concern. Take care,

WOM

Hi WOM...have you tried bringing him to this site or "accidently" leaving some printed posts out from other WS's out for him to "find"? There are some really, really good old posts from 2ofakind on the recovery board. There is also a really old one (several years) from a FWH that has helped many BS's and WS's here maybe by atrueheart or bravehears...sorry I can't remember...do any other old timers remember this post...he talks about his journey through fog land and how he recovered thanks to his wonderful and strong wife.

My FWH also posted here a year or so ago (tellthetruth) about BS's needing to stay strong with their boundaries...he credits alot of our recovery on me doing a Plan A (I wasn't all sweetness and kindness but I did work on my own issues, like understanding and overcoming why I am a control freak...which is really what Plan A is about....it is not about being a doormat).

In the early days after dday my H was also reluctant to admit his EA (found out later was a full fledged A) was an Affair. He was also reluctant to read here, post here or to read the A books. Once I hooked him by leaving some stuff laying around and leaving this site open on my computer he made faster progress.

I have a thread on the Recovery Board that gives a 3 year update on our recovery with what the personal keys to success were to us. I would also suggest posting over there some as well..many smart old timers on both boards.

As for your son...I MADE (yes I know ultimatums are considered bad here by most but a few well placed ones worked for me) him tell our son about the EA (never told them that they had SF just that friendship had crossed hte line).

As you can see by my signature line below from 3 years ago...OW was our next door neighbor and she and her husband were close friends and we all travelled in same social circles.

I felt that my kids needed to know what was going on with us, why I was crying all the time, why Dad was acting weird, why we were no longer seeing OW and her family...but mostly because I knew that making him face his kids with his actions would move him a big step out of fog land and denial.

Good news is it worked...facing his kids and their questions really blew fantasy land away. They are smart kids and asked good questions...so are you going to stop dad (his answer yes), are you going to leave us (no I am going to do the right thing and stay here and work hard on myself and my relationship with mom), dad you've always told us lying was wrong how did you do this (he said...even parents make mistakes..but we can also learn our lesson and what I did was wrong)...sure you are starting to get the jest here.

Anyway gotta run but will check in on you later.

Forevertogether,

I have considered bringing him here or showing him some posts -- actually I have printed off Trueheart's letter and it's wonderful! But I just don't think WH wants to hear that stuff now. He hasn't committed to anything yet and is still quite defiant about it all. I guess I'm just afraid it would just make him more angry and maybe push him even further away. I still don't know for sure that he's not communicating with OW and I don't want to give her any reason to change her mind about leaving her BH. I know it shouldn't give them a reason, but he's lied to her about things I've said and done before (what a surprise, huh?).

I do think I will soon at least tell him about this site and the books I've purchased. Maybe by some miracle he'll be willing to read.

As for DS, once again I have considered having WH tell him some of what's going on -- in the very general terms you described -- but still am not sure whether I want to or not. He's no dummy -- he may well have figured some of it out, but I so hate to bring things up that he hasn't already considered!

A question for you -- During withdrawal and recovery and everything did you still live next door to OW? If so, how did that work? We don't live next door, but there is occasional accidental (if not other) contact. Can this work in that kind of sitch?

I am so glad to hear from someone with such a wonderful success story! You give me hope. Is there a link I can use to read your story from the beginning? I'd love to know how you felt when you were more in my sitch.

Thanks for taking the time and having patience with me. I'm still learning so much here...

WOM

"A question for you -- During withdrawal and recovery and everything did you still live next door to OW? If so, how did that work? We don't live next door, but there is occasional accidental (if not other) contact. Can this work in that kind of sitch?"

We put our house up for sale within weeks of dday but that was right at the start of the Iraq war so it took several months to sell.

In the first days after dday they used living next door to their advantage..she would go out roller blading at about the time she knew he left to go work out (5:30am) to catch him..they would talk (this was after they agreed to nc) and share stories. I found out and stopped that.

In the beginning we agreed to still let our kids play together but she would use that to her advantage and several days after dday I found this site and learned all about true NC and put a stop to the kids playing together.

She would also come out of her house with her kids in hte afternoon and flaunt around. I put a stop to that by threatening her.

I looked at those early days as being at war...I was at war to save my M and my family. My personal plan reflected this. I worked on acknowledging my issues and correcting them. However, since both couples agreed to work on their M (even though in early days both OW and my FWH thought that it wouldn't workout and htey would end up together).

Since he agreed....I insisted that he agree to really work on it...I just flat out told him...even if you aren't sure you love me anymore, even if you think she may be your soul mate...we have alot of history together, you used to love me very much, you love your children and owe it to them, me and yourself to try your hardest. If it doesn't work you can at least look back and say you gave it 100%.

So after that got him to agree to IC, MC, counseling with SH, reading the books and posting here. Again this wasn't optional for me...he either decided he was in this with me or I was taking the kids and leaving. I knew my H...I knew that no matter how temporarily insane he was that he loved us and wouldn't let us walk out the door. He justed needed me to be strong and to push him...YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER A WS IS TEMPORARILY INSANE AND HAVE TO TREAT THEM LIKE THAT WHILE THEY ARE STILL IN THE FOG!!!

I'd like to learn more about your H before the A...did he love you, was he a good husband, a good man, a good father, good citizen, etc. If so then you have a good chance of recovering if you are strong while he's insane and not capable of being strong or rational.

You have to stop being afraid of him and to start putting a proactive plan in place to save your M...most M aren't saved by sitting back and "hoping" for change. Most WS's need a "light bulb" moment to help them out of the fog and sometimes a good scare moves that along.

The immediate things that helped my H move out of the fog was 1) on dday night I called my Mom after the scene at the OW's house and she got on the phone with my H and told him that she knew what kind of man he really is and had complete faith that he would "do the right thing". 2)Him facing my pain and OW's H pain dday night 3)Facing his children that night and telling them that he had messed up

This started his journey out of fantasy land. We then agreed that night that we had to get out of town together and called our moms to come watch the kids and then we left for 3 days...the beginning was horrible and awkard...then we started talking and I really listened to him....started becoming his friend again...we made love, he snuck away and called OW found out she was at Busch Gardens with friends and she didn't sound all that miserable, he then came back to hotel and told me that after walking and thinking he did really want to try (told me later that he started getting pissed at OW after that call for first time), we then went for a walk and called home and our then 4 year old was scared and that brought him more out of fog land.

I could go on and on about the steps that lead him out of fogland but that could take days. I should also mention that I kept challenging his fantasy with her...for example...he felt that they were soul mates that they talked about everything that they shared all their innermost feelings...so I asked him what her favorite color was, her favorite food, favorite band, first time she had sex, how many people she'd been with, her first kiss, etc...he didn't know any of that...started realizing that he didn't know her that well at all.

I challenged his perception of her as a warm caring person who always had his best interest at heart by asking him what she told him when he talked about his problems with me or kids....he then remembered that she sly slipped in negatives about me and the kids.

I asked him how they planned to leave thier spouses and live happily ever after. He said that they decided that eventually one would leave their spouse and then after awhile the other would leave and then after a reasonable amount of time they would make it appear that they turned to each other after the divorces. I made him really think about me and did he really think I would not figure this out???? Did he really think after knowing me all these years I would just roll over and let him leave, that I would let him be with her??

Then on to their discussion about the kids..she told him that lots of kids from divorce ended up happier then with living with unhappy parents and that our kids would all just "have to get over it". Wow..when we dug into this it was an eye opener...he is a great, loving and protective father. I ousted this family by asking him to talk to our older daughers about how this fantasy family would work in realy life...they told him they caring for OW would have turned to hatred and digust and htey wouldn't have had anything to do with her...I also told him our 4 year old would never understand why daddy wasn't there all the time.

Our daughters told him that the part of living with unhappy parents being worse was ridiculous because they always saw us as loving and happy parents (this was a double blow to fantasy land because it also made him remember that our 20 years of M was mostly good and that he had re-invented history to justify his A).

I should also mention that I threatened the OW a couple of times and she was scared of me...that helped alot with her maintaining NC after that first week. I didn't threaten her phisically but did tell her in no uncertain terms that my H was my H and that I would never let them go...I would make her life a living ****** if she didn't stay away. At one point even threatened to expand exposure (OW H and I teamed up on exposure and told both families and close friends) to include exposure to her children's principal (this was a threat I wouldn't have followed through on but she didn't know that) told her I'd send an email to whole neighborhood, to her theatre group, etc.

You should be able to click on my name link beside my post and pull up all my posts you can then scan to the beginning to read all the old stuff. My H posted under tellthetruth.

Anyway, the bottom line to this whole thing is recoveries don't happen by waiting around..you have to shake things up and make them happen. I would start by leaving this site open, leaving your copy of the A books laying around and making an appointment with the Harley's. They can help you formulate a specific recovery plan for you and your H.