Thanks forever,

So much to learn, so many things to think about...

I've been reading Surviving an Affair and I'm going to finish it before I make any concrete decisions. I know I sound wishy-washy, but I guess I'm just really scared!

Also, we did go to MC for a few months -- we started just before dday -- I think dday was hastened by the OW finding out about our MC. Anyway, our MC is VERY pro-marriage -- let me tell you VERY. He must have some experience with MB, too, because he had WH write a NC letter. Of course it was done reluctantly and of course it didn't mean anything to WH in the end, but it was worded almost exactly like the Harleys suggest it should be. But, in other ways his approach is different than MB. He is against exposure other than to church leaders (he is a church counselor) and one close friend to talk to. He didn't even want me to talk to my parents about it. It was too late, I already had, but he convinced me I needed to stop telling them details about what was going on and I have. They don't even know about dday #2.

He also is against any sleuthing -- doesn't want me to be a detective at all. I've tried to do that too, but it's really hard sometimes. Also, he feels that it would actually be detrimental to me to know many of the details of the affair -- therefore I'm not supposed to ask questions. I'm also not supposed to even ask WH if he's still seeing/talking to her.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that I've gotten some of my approach from MC. We haven't seen him since well before dday#2, however, and I wonder if his counsel would change at all. Also, my friend who helps me through this is insistent that I not be the one to leave. Partly because when FIL had an affair on MIL when WH was the same age DS is now, MIL was the one who finally left when FIL wasn't willing to work things out and he's ALWAYS blamed her for leaving. I don't want DS to ever blame it on me for leaving.

As for WH before the A, we always struggled, I'll have to admit that. I never felt very loved by him after we'd been married for a while. I had many unfulfilled needs and he wasn't willing to even TRY to fill them. Claimed I was unreasonable in my expectations. I wasn't. BUT, I didn't react well to what I saw as rejection. I became a nag and a witch at times. Yes, we struggled, but it wasn't He** or anything -- though he now says it was.

He has always been a very decent man. Up until the A I NEVER caught him in a lie -- not even a tiny one. He's a great dad and I can't even imagine him leaving DS, but he claims he's ready to if she'll have him. She has four cute but kind of wild kids (ages 3-10) and we have one calm, sweet 11 year old. He's just not seeing reality here, and I know it's the fog. He's really a great citizen and great person as well -- most people would be absolutely flabbergasted at what he's done and what he's continuing to do. He really is having his cake with that -- hardly anyone knows.

Well, this is way too long, sorry I'm rambling. You're right, I need to get a plan. Like I said, I'm going to finish the book first and see where we go from there. Thanks so much for your help. You're an inspiration!

WOM

Hi WOM,

No disrespect to your MC but the Harley's specialize in saving M, that have been rocked by an A. There are hundreds of success stories attributed to following their principles.

Another good thing about contacting them is that they will help you formulate your plan.

If your H is so sure about what he is doing why would he care about exposure? Only reason he would care is if deep down he knows what he is doing is wrong.

Have you spoken to OW's H?

Have you told your H that you love him and are going to fight for him?

My H told me that this was a very big deal for him...in his "justification" of the A he had convinced himself that I wouldn't really care, that I didnt' really love him anymore.

He posted on GQ a year or so ago regarding his beliefs that my strenght and my fighting for him were big turning points for him.

You can almost think of it like dealing with a child..they are very vocal in their fight against boundaries that you as a parent impose on them but they are secretly a little releived that you put those boundaries out there...they aren't capable of controlling themselves totally and rely on our support as a parent...even when they are fighting you tooth and nail...my MC/IC gave them example to me and it was very helpful.

SH also told me that you don't treat insane people the same way you would treat them before they went temporarily insane nor would you expect them to act and react like they used to.

YOUR H IS WEAK,CONFUSED AND TEMPORARILY INSANE RIGHT NOT....IT IS A MISTAKE TO DEAL WITH HIM AS YOU DID PRIOR TO HIM GOING INSANE.

You need to be strong right now and fight...once he's out of the fog some he may be in the shape to help you with the fight for your M but unfortunately while this deep in the fog he just isn't capable.

AGAIN, don't be so sure that he wouldn't secretly appreciate your stating to him that you are going to be strong and fight for him and your M and that you may do things in this fight that he won't like at first but to just know that you are doing these things because you love him, your son and want to stay married.

What could it hurt to make an appointment with the Harley's????

You're right, it couldn't hurt to talk to the Harleys. How do I do it?

Yes, I have told WH many, many times that I love him and I'm going to fight for this marriage. He says he knows that I love him but it's just not enough when he isn't "in love" with me any more. And I suppose my definition of "fight" is basically to not let him go easily. I talk to him and try to reason with him (yeah, like that can work now!) and have spoken to friends and church leaders (all of which makes him very angry). But maybe I need to step it up...

Again, how do I contact the Harleys? That may be a good next step.

Well, I'd better get to work. Thanks again!

WOM

Hi WOM,

Go to the home page for MB and click on the counseling link. You will find all the information there. I worked with SH but many here have also worked with Jennifer and both seem equally liked and respected here by those who counseled with them.

Let me know how it turns out.

Remember..it would be worse if he wasn't angry that you were telling people, would mean he's proud of what he's done or that he doesn't care.

My H didn't like exposure one bit but felt after what he'd done he couldn't get too angry. He didn't know if me fighting for him would work but did acknowledge that I had a right to fight for him...was nice that OW didn't fight for him...that showed him who loved him more.

Sounds like your OW has also chosen her family...at least for now.

Yes, I believe OW HAS chosen her family. As a result, I don't feel that it would be appropriate for me to do any exposure that would affect her at this point. If things change as far as contact goes, I'll definitely rethink re-exposure.

I know WH's mom would be absolutely devastated and so angry with him. His dad did the same thing to her 25 years ago and just two weeks after our d-day #1 this year he left his second wife of 24 years -- for the same woman he left MIL for 25 years ago! That's another thing hurting my chances with WH -- him hearing from his dad how he never stopped loving OW (and why didn't it work out between them 25 years ago, you ask? Don't ask me!) and how he's soooooo happy now having left his wife and second family of children (including a 12-year-old and a 16-year-old). He moved two states away and doesn't have much to do with his children any more. So, great example my WH has to follow, huh? And I have respected WH's wishes not to tell his mother for now, partly because I know how devastated she would be. But, once again, we'll have to see how things go...

Anyway, thanks once again!

WOM

I spoke to WH last night, asked him about contact. He said there hasn't been any, and for some reason I believe him. I guess it's because I believe OW is committed to working out her marriage.

Wh is still saying the same hurtful things, the gists of which are: Your (my) needs are the cause of our marriage problems, our marriage was never good, I don't have feelings for you any more, I never will, I don't even want to, I want to hang on to my feelings for OW even if I can't have her, I'd rather be in pain and remember all I had with her than give 100% to our marriage. Basically, it's just not worth it to him. And when I bring up DS he gets angry and says this isn't about him. To which I respond, "of course it is, do you not think he's affected by all of this?" He says, "Yes, but this is ultimately between you and me." He's right in a way, but I think he needs to remember that DS (and many others) will be are are affected by the things he does. I know that he just doesn't want to face the fact that he's not an entity unto himself. He definitely isn't giving 100 % and isn't even willing to commit to it or to NC, but for some reason I have a little more hope this morning. He just seemed slightly less vehement about the whole thing. I ended it by telling him once again that I loved him and planned to fight for our marriage and that I was sorry for the stupid mistakes I made that hurt him and hurt our marriage but that I hoped that sometime in the future he could find it in himself to forgive me for my mistakes.

I hate these little talks we have, but I think it's necessary for me to get an update on his feelings and state of contact or no contact.

I hope I didn't throw in any LBs -- I was very calm the whole time, but he was angry with me for even asking him the questions. I'm still reading Surviving an Affair and still learning.

Oh, that reminds me, I told him about MB and the books I've bought and he says he doesn't care if I read them or come here, but he's not interested. Also, he's not at all interested in counseling with Steve Harley. It's the money (in addition to what he knows he would hear, I'm sure). We can get a counselor around here for $65 a session. Although, he's not willing to go back to the one we had before and he said he'd only be willing to go to one outside of our valley if they didn't say things he disagreed with. I guess that eliminates every decent MC everywhere, right?!

Anyway, we'll see how things are in a few weeks. There MAY be some progress...

Thanks for listening!

WOM

Here is the list:

For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

Believer,

Wow, that's a lot more than I anticipated. I'm doing some of those things but definitely not all. Hmmmm, some of it would be really difficult for me, but I'll have to consider this --

Thanks for taking the time to find the list <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WOM

wom,

OW choosing her family may very well be only temporary so I do not agree with your stance of not informing the OW's husband.He has a right to know what is going on and the longer you wait,the more chance there is of this A going underground.False promises are made all the time by WS's and OP.It's a given.Yes your WH would be mad at exposing and so would the mother as you stated but you cannot and should not protect these two from their behavior.You are just keeping their dirty little secret.

Most people who come here and are new fear exposure and don't think it is right.It's a normal reaction but it's very necessary to not only put a big damper on ongoing A's but also to help prevent it from continuing.If all parties know what is going on,such as the OW'w husband,then that is the best chance of BOTH sides working for the marriages to be saved.This OW was co-conspirator to helping your marriage be destroyed and now you don't think you should say anything? Why are you protecting her? Sooner or later the husband will find out but for now it's all one big lie he is unaware of.You are not saving anyone from pain,you are only helping to prolong it and then you will have to inevitably deal with the "why" of why you didn't say anything knowing full well what was going on.

I am a little suprised no one else has mentioned this yet since it is a very common issue that is usually advised to handle right away.

In my case,I told everyone right away and it has helped keep the homewrecker away from my children and all the rest of us.This OW was never accepted by either family and never will be and part of that threat,so to speak,helped keep my WH from feeling that all was acceptable which it wasn't by ANY means.Yes everyone was devastated but that was due to my WH's choices,not my exposure.

O

WOM..I agree with Octobergirl...you can't rely on OW chosing her H. She is also temporarily insane and in the fog so will be very wish washy.

If she's like the OW in my case she will try to keep your husband on the hook until she sees if it will work out with her own H.

I exposed to OW's husband within an hour of me finding out about the A. That same OWH exposed to both their families and I exposed to both sides of ours (except our children and my H's father..he exposed to both of them).

This started the journey for OW and my FWH out of fog land.

Your H will find it hard to hand onto his anger once he has to face the ugliness of what he's done and when he has to explain to people who love and respect him what he's done. He will then start seeing things much more clearly.

WS's also rewrite history to justify their A...exposing to people who saw the good in you and your M will also help bring him back to reality. When we exposed I acknowledged my faults to my H and to everyone and vowed to change.....however, everyone was quick to point out the good in me and my M as well.

Anyway...as I've said before this is the time to have a proactive plan....sitting and waiting only prolongs the agony and puts your recovery at more risk.

I still think you should make an appointment with the Harley's for yourself...if you're husbands not ready they can at least counsel you. Money is not the most important thing right now...saving your family is top priority.

Even if your H said he's not willing to read any of the books or articles here...I would still leave them lying out in plain sight...I'm betting curiousity will get the better of him.

I forgot to mention that you might want to check out the recovery board for some inspiration...there are a couple of threads on there now from some couples who are recovered...I have one, TSC has one, I think Daisy and may be others.

Thanks O and Forever,

I may not have been clear before about what exposure I was talking about. OWH DOES know now what's been going on. She confessed to him again, and he sought out my WH at church and had a little talk with him a couple of weeks ago. Amazingly he didn't threaten him or anything (maybe it would be good if he did!) but he does know. I know that they are in MC and I'm hoping that will help them. I guess the exposure I was talking about that would affect her was telling more people at church and WH's mom. I don't think it would do any good to tell MIL, because WH has no respect for her. I should have realized before we got married that he had problems by the way I saw him treat his mother. He's not abusive or anything, but very dismissive and rude. HE rolls his eyes a lot when he talks to her on the phone. Anyway, I think it might actually hurt our chances if she put any pressure on him. And I'm just not ready to do any more exposure at church. If things change I'll consider it. But I think that at this point it would feel and seem vindictive to tell others when she is the one being strong and staying away (and her BH does know about it).

I'm sorry if I seem weak, but I really do appreciate the advice and I am considering it. Please don't give up on me! I haven't given up yet.

Okay, I AM considering a personal counseling session with the Harleys. I will look into it more. Also, I'll look into the Recovery Board -- it will be good to know that there are success stories out there!

Thanks for your help...

WOM