[color:"blue"] As you have seen in the past with me I get very uncertain about boundaries and where to draw them with my boyfriend.

On the one hand, he's a nice guy, I like him, and I want to be around him all of the time to enjoy his company.

On the other hand he is not my husband and there is no real committment other than he's my guy and I'm his gal...

There have been occasions where he did not invite me to things such as when he takes his parents to anniversary dinner and dinner with brother(s) and parents when they visited. Probably because my children would interfere with the attention to grown up conversation and a quiet dinner. I understand that - children can be a distraction to a quiet adult dinner. And partly because they wanted to be together as a family.

Talking of Thanksgiving and Christmas now. T day his mom wants to have dinner at her home because the three sons are all going to be in town and "they can all be home". (I cooked T day last year at his home because it was just BF and mom & dad and my children. She cooked Christmas, and I went there after church although BF wanted me to be there in the AM as it is tradition to open their gifts there. We ended up staying at his house and did our gifts before I went to church and then came back to his mom & dad's house - I didn't have the kids last year.

Well he announces that this year it would be T day at mom and dad's and I told him that I was not cooking anywhere but at my house Christmas because I was not going to pack up toys before and after so they could wake up and open gifts at his house, or make the kids leave their new toys to spend the day at someone else's house. I said if your folks want to come by for Christmas dinner I'll invite them. He says something about Christmas morning - maybe he could be here then go over for mom's and then bring them back over for dinner.

I started thinking - this man may never be a permanent fixture in my life, do I really want him to be at MY family's most precious family event? It again to me seems to boil down to cake eating. He doesn't want to commit yet he wants to be part of my family and participate in the joyous events - yet he will exclude me from his familys private events. Shouldn't I protect my children so that they don't grow more attached to someone other than the peripheral superficial attachment they have for him now?

He does things that are odd somehow I don't know how to explain it, but he will pay for my dinner, but not the children's if we are all eating out. He wanted to go on vacation and I said I had no money so he offered to pay for my portion but not the children's.

So long story short I told him that I think Christmas is a family event and perhaps he should spend the morning with his family and I would spend it with mine. They were welcome to come for dinner later. (Earlier in the conversation when he was trying to fit being at my house then being at his folks house for their traditions then being at my house later, he had even started naming times for different things, indicating what time I should offer dinner. You know, If I'm cooking, then maybe they should come by when I'm ready to serve.)

If you were a boyfriend or a girlfriend dating someone with kids for 1 1/2 years, would you expect to spend the night and be there for gifts Christmas morning? In light of the fact that you only spend time with these children maybe once a month or less. And the focus is on their mom not on interacting with them.

Am I being mean or protecting my kids? I know he was disappointed but again I feel like for a guy who is lonely yet doesn't want to commit that he is just cake eating to expect to be part of my family and yet hold himself apart...

V.[/color]

V - I know you and I have both been posting for a while, but I can't recall the ages of your kids, which may figure into the holiday dilemma and its priority to them and to you.

Since my kids are adults, I don't have the same situation, but something struck me while I was reading your post. Does your BF have kids and pay child support? If so, he may be figuring that he is paying for HIS kid's support and entertainment, so why should he pay for those things for your kids? Along that same line, he may be thinking that if your H is paying for your kids' meals and vacations, why should he? Now that may be warped thinking on his part (and certainly not gracious), but I'm only trying to give a possible explanation.

Bottom line - have you spoken to him about how these perceived slights and different definitions of "family event" bother you? They seem to be adding up, which is telling (as you said, cake eater).

[color:"blue"]avondale,

The younger 2 are 7yob & 8yob, with a 16yod.

I accepted that he may not want to have kids around for his parent's anniversary - or that his parents may not be up to the strain. Some older folks get really iffy about the noise and disruption that goes with kids. When I used to visit my gp's the kids were only allowed in the pool at the old folks place certain hours and there were a lot of rules about noise and etc.

BF has no children of his own. He is lonely (finally) after years of his friends and parents filling his ENs. His major needs are Admiration and RC so I assume that this combo made it easy for him to be fulfilled as long as he got bigger and better or more technically wow stuff to show off to all of his friends and family to get strokes. His friends and family doubled as RC too.

When they all have finally reached their forties and they are not all single and hanging out together anymore he realized "hey I'm all alone".

I think that he does think that my children are not his financial responsibility - I accept that as well. What was odd was that I said I was too broke to go on vacation. He said well he would pay for the gas if we took my car. I said I'm still too broke for entertainment hotels and food. He said he would pay for my food but it would be way too much to pay for the kids. I laughed and said "it's too pricey for you to pay it, however I'm broke and it's not too pricey for me to afford..." It was just odd that he never takes us all out for dinner. He will come over and eat my food all the time.

I did speak to him. I speak to him all the time and tell him that stuff is bothering me. The above example he did admit that "oh yeah if you can't afford vacation you can't afford vacation".

My ex recently quit his job and child support dropped out. He didn't tell me what he was doing so that I could change my 401K contribution and have money to feed the kids with while he took his jobless vacation.

And resentments do build up in spite of all of that. BF went away on Thur - Sat and I reserve Sun to get weekly chores done. He was hurt that I wouldn't spend Sunday afternoon with him (we did have Sat night and Sun morning). I was puzzled because I have had to accept in the past that he had chores to complete.

I'm wondering if he is one of those people that you have to follow his rules and charms his way out of his following your rules?

He is certainly nothing if gracious once it is obvious that the line has been drawn. Up until the point that it becomes emphatic, he will try to persuade his own way.

V. [/color]

V, it sounds like you're interpreting his behavior to mean one thing when it could mean another. Maybe since he's always spent Christmas with his parents, they expect him and he doesn't want to disappoint them while at the same time spending the day with you. Maybe at the same time, he really wants you to want to include him in your family. Maybe he feels it's not really his decision to be with your kids, it's yours. Maybe he felt like by helping you out, paying for you, then you could afford vacation together, sharing the cost, in other words, not realizing you meant you couldn't pay for any of it. Or, maybe it all meant something completely different than what you think or I'm suggesting. I just used an Al-Anon saying in another thread, but here's another good one. WHen I [censored]-U-ME what you are thinking/feeling, I make an [censored] of U and ME.

Overall, from what I remember, and of course we only get bits and pieces from your point of view, it seems he is somewhat of a cake-eater. I will first try to address some of your points, and I will also try to relate my 2+year R with xBF with 2 kids (I have no kids, and when we started dating they were 12 and 14).

On the other hand he is not my husband and there is no real committment other than he's my guy and I'm his gal...

I would think at 1 and 1/2 years, there would be a little more to it than this, and more communication and negotiation going on.

There have been occasions where he did not invite me to things such as when he takes his parents to anniversary dinner and dinner with brother(s) and parents when they visited. Probably because my children would interfere with the attention to grown up conversation and a quiet dinner. I understand that - children can be a distraction to a quiet adult dinner. And partly because they wanted to be together as a family.

hmmmm..... I can't relate to this AT ALL. Comparing to my last situation, I ALWAYS invited xBF to everything. We would discuss whether or not his kids would come or not. They were not always well-behaved, and I would be uncomfortable with them being there, and I had to be blunt and tell him that, so that I could invite HIM, because I wanted HIM there with me. But some events, THEY were included. I can see this coming up in the future with my current BF, if we continue dating. There will be some events in which kids will be included, and some not. He will need to make arrangements for them, but we will always negotiate and choose TOGETHER what we should do.

He says something about Christmas morning - maybe he could be here then go over for mom's and then bring them back over for dinner.

What's wrong with this? This is what I did with xBF. I wanted to be a part of their Christmas morning. Then I left so they could have some time together, and I went to my family, and THEY came over to MY family's house later for dinner.

I started thinking - this man may never be a permanent fixture in my life, do I really want him to be at MY family's most precious family event?

Wow! You come on here an post every week or 2 acting this way, then you calm down and say "it's not bad - he's really wonderful" bla bla bla. If you WANT to REALLY see if ya'll can make it long-term, then you need to try the REAL stuff. Christmas morning stuff. Negotiation. Not "my way" or "your way", but compromising your schedules. I think it's COOL that he wanted to spend Christmas morning with you and your kids, and you blew him out!

It again to me seems to boil down to cake eating. He doesn't want to commit yet he wants to be part of my family and participate in the joyous events - yet he will exclude me from his familys private events. Shouldn't I protect my children so that they don't grow more attached to someone other than the peripheral superficial attachment they have for him now?

OK. Then don't just set your boundaries on Christmas day. If he's NOT what you want, then don't take them to dinner with him anymore and expect him to pay. Don't let them spend any time with him, if you're thinking of protecting them.

I am not sure what to think about his paying/not paying for the kids. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes (since I don't have kids), and trying to put myself in HIS shoes too. I don't know the expectations for men that date women with children, as far as when they should start paying for the kids' meals and vacations. It seems like a lot to ask, but I don't know... never thought about it.

If you were a boyfriend or a girlfriend dating someone with kids for 1 1/2 years, would you expect to spend the night and be there for gifts Christmas morning? In light of the fact that you only spend time with these children maybe once a month or less. And the focus is on their mom not on interacting with them.

I wouldn't EXPECT it, because every family is different, with different traditions and schedules and such. There are ex's and in-laws to deal with, and the timing and emotions are important - like maybe some individual time is needed with the parent. But YES, I would LIKE TO, and would work together with my BF to decide what is best for everyone.

Am I being mean or protecting my kids? I know he was disappointed but again I feel like for a guy who is lonely yet doesn't want to commit that he is just cake eating to expect to be part of my family and yet hold himself apart...


What kind of "commitment" are you missing? What do you need from him that you aren't getting? I agreed with you on his "private family" time. I believe you need to discuss and try to find the real reason WHY, and maybe there are some compromises there. Maybe he would include YOU more if you left the kids with babysitters. Not every time, but sometimes.

[color:"blue"] Lets try,

He is trying to spend Christmas with his folks just as always. He is trying to fit me into that scenario. He just wasn't thinking when he thought I and the kids would be able to just join into his routine. (He wanted me to cook dinner for him and his folks at his house.)

He was just trying to find a way for us all to afford a vacation. He prefers actually that I would go on vacations with him and without the children.

He assumes that he belongs in any event. So his first assumption was that he would spend the night Christmas eve and be there in the morning when the kids open gifts so that he could be part of that.

I think in the past that he often had a traditional Christmas Eve with his folks and then would sleep over their house for Christmas day stuff.

This time in order to do everything, he would probably spend Christmas eve with his folks, jet over to sleep at my house, watch the kids open presents, jet over to the folks house to be with them for their "thing", (or have all of us go over for that although I doubt it - I would have my kids with me), bring the parents to my house for dinner then be home for his annual lonely hearts gift exchange party.

OR, I think he even imagined that since his parents are 25 minutes away from him and he is 25 minutes away from me, almost in the center, that it would be fun to have Christmas at his house. He gets an enormous 12 foot Christms tree for his Cathedral ceilinged living room. He just hadn't thought about the logistics of getting santas toys to and fro and the thought of all of us having to haul over there to be convenient to him...

He admitted he hadn't given the logistics a thought.

V. [/color]

Now that you are describing more, it seems like he was willing to do a LOT to spend time with you and your kids, as well as his folks... to get it all done! That seems great/sweet/giving to me... what am I missing????

[color:"blue"]A person that tries too hard to please everyone ends up pleasing no one.

Everyone pulls on him and I try to be the one not to pull on him so he thinks that I'm the easiest thing to schedule last. In the left over time. Harley recommends that you schedule time with your SO first then drop the other stuff if your schedule is too tight.

I am trying to work out a compromise, however I don't think that having Christmas at his house is fair to me and the kids.

He talks of living together but he never mentions marriage. I worry about my kids becoming attached to someone but I guess it is ok - they love their teachers and the teachers change every year with a new grade, right?

His new offer. He wants to spend christmas eve day with me helping me wrap stuff. (He has never helped me do anything, so I don't know - he offers to, but never does) Then he is spending Christmas eve with his folks. Early Christmas morning he will come over to my place, then when I head off to church he will go to his folks for gift exchange. Then he plans to come back to help with dinner (He can barely boil water - honestly), and his folks will come over for dinner, then we drive to his house for his friends to have thier lonely heart exchange.

I'm sorry but I just don't think I'm up to that much stuff crammed into one day.

I know that it is him that will be running all over, but golly talk about craziness...

V.[/color]

I vote for door number 3, you are very critical of this guy.

He can barely boil water, he never helps, he doesn't talk about marriage.

Listen to yourself, you are running him down here.

On that whole, schedule time with your SO first, so have you done that with him, scheduled with him before your family and kids?

I just wonder if you expect him to do things that you aren't doing in this regard.

That's what I see at first glance,

T

V,

My experience with BF paying for kids is this:

BF have no kids, I have 5, but oldest is in college, so most of the time BF and I do things with my 4 little ones. He pays for dinner and any entertainment for all of us. This was something he did from day one. There are times where I pay for all of us too, but I have to admit, he pays 90% of the time.

I think he is being very generous offering to pay for your part of the vacation. They are not his kids, and he is only your b/f, not your husband and not their step father.

Why do women expect a man to pay for another man's children?

You seem to be seeing to much into this relationship. He is just a b/f, not a husband, not a fiance, and definetly, not the father of your children.

Justin,

You have a valid point there. I agree with you. When I introduced BF to my kids recently, I felt that I needed to pay for my kids because that's what child support is for and their Dad is the one responsible for that.

Like I said, BF pays for most of the activities that we do and I don't expect it from him. I usually tell him to let me pay for it but he insist on it, so I let him. When I get the chance to pay I take that opportunity.

[color:"blue"]I know - and he is a sweet person. He has a big heart and he says all the right things. Then he will overbook or exhaust himself with everything else in his life and what is left is an exhausted overbooked man whose health is starting to fail because he doesn't take care of himself. He is not a bad person. It is frustrating to spend time with someone who drives themselves that hard trying to please everyone. Who comes to me because he truly cares and feels that with me he can relax. Who then falls asleep out of sheer exhaustion. [/color]


[color:"blue"]It's true. He offers to help but then let's say for example he offers to help me paint. Every saturday when I get out the paint and brushes, he calls me says he is doing this or that at his house and he'll call me later to let me know when he'll be done. My problem is that I fail to say "Hey get over here - you said you would paint with me." or "chop up these vegetables while I fry the meat" [/color]



[color:"blue"]Yes. I hire a babysitter every Wednesday night and no matter what is going on at the house I am determined to make it out the door. There are times when my children have asked to go somewhere and I remind them that Wed night is my date night. On the weekends my two youngest are gone with dad, I spend most of the weekend at his house and encourage my teenage daughter to find her own ride to work and back so that I don't have to make special trips in the middle of the day and interrupt plans made with BF to pick her up from work and bring her over whatever friend's house she is wanting to then go to. So the weekend is built around SO not my daughter's work schedule. On the weekends when my kids are home it is generally his choice that he finds things to do apart from us. He has started to join us more for stuff and maybe my resentment factor has just built too high to appreciate the efforts he is making.

V.[/color]

[color:"blue"]Let me explain Justin. I do not expect him to pay for children. I always pay for the entire meal - his too when we all go out. 50% of the time I pick up the tab when it is just the two of us. He makes as much as I do - and I support 4 instead of 1 and still pick up the tab. Same with any other dating thing - he pays for the movie, I pay for concessions.

The situation about the vacation was that HE wanted to go on a vacation and I was simply telling him that I couldn't afford to go with him this time. BTW - last time he came on vacation with us, I paid for the rental house, the rental car, the food for the house, and mine and the childrens tickets for planes and the amusement park. He bought me (not the kids) breakfast at the park one morning. And got to stay with us for 4 nights for free.

He did not want to go on vacation alone, and thought to persuade me with his (yes generous) offer to pay for my share.

There are other men who would pay for it all since they might have more disposable cash than a woman supporting her family alone. I know that he is not one of them and I wouldn't expect him to do any differently. I was just telling him I still couldn't afford to go - essentially - go on vacation by yourself this time because I'm broke and can't go.

You're right about the "just a boyfriend" part. I've said that to him during some discussions and he was deeply hurt. Apparently he doesn't think of himself as just a boyfriend. I don't know what to make of his behaviors sometimes when his attitude is so different from the actual commitment level and his involvement in my life in general.

V.[/color]

So... have we helped you answer the question? boundaries or witch?

Sunny:

I've been keeping up with this post and wanted to throw out an opinion or two. Your expectations (not desires - big difference) seem a bit strong to me and I wonder if this is keeping BF from advancing in your relationship. He seems like a nice enough fellow - kind and considerate as far as I can tell from your descriptions. Yes, there are areas that he could probably "tune up" a little, however in an overall sense; he seems like a decent guy. Perhaps he is a bit too laid back for your personality. I have to ask: Why are you staying with someone who meets so few of your EN's?

FR

[color:"blue"]Faith,

I think in order to set boundaries you have to let go of the feeling that you are being mean. So I'm not a witch. I just am feeling the pain of standing firm against someone I care for.

I've concluded that boyfriend just doesn't want to give up anything. He is so busy because he just keeps piling thing on rather than being judicious about what he will take on.

The good news is that after my last email he has offered to give up trying to squeeze the friend gift exchange into Christmas day and reschedule.

I'm working on the other part now. I'm hosting his parents for golly pete's sake and he's going to flit in and out all day? He should be there supporting me not flitting in and out.

That was what was bugging me. Would you go play golf on the day that your SO was going to the trouble of hosting a party for your boss? Probably not - you'd be there helping her because it was your event not necessarily hers.

Still working at it.

V.[/color]

[color:"blue"]What is it that seems strong? I don't understand what I may be doing so help me out here. BF wants all of us (me and 3 kids) to move in with him and leave all of our neighbors, school, etc. I say no. He offers to buy a house together in my area, but only searches the for sale notices in his area. Seems passive aggressive, but not like he doesn't want the relationship to advance. [/color]



[color:"blue"]We have the same meyers briggs profile. I've never felt so comfortable with someone or so well understood before. We are both ENTPs. We are both very laid back and easy going.

I think he is kind but inconsiderate in a guy kind of way. He has never had to put a women in every room of his house. (reference to story Harley tells of the way men think)[/color]



[color:"blue"]Well, given the distance we are apart it is very hard for him to consistently meet my ENs. It may be stupid, but I assumed that if we were together it would be more consistent.

V.[/color]

To answer this, IMO, and to respond to the post above, where you mention his change of plans (again) to drop the friend-gift-exchange, it seems you are wanting and wanting and wanting, and never satisfied. It seems, from what you are describing here, that he is not going to get anything he wants out of this R, or at Christmas, without you being disappointed. If he rearranges all his plans for you at Christmas, you'll be happy, but will he? If he bought a house where you wanted, you'll be happy, but would he?

If he is not meeting your EN's now, it won't be any better if you live together or get married. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure if you're too demanding, or if he's just not doing what you need.... it's hard to tell from your side of the story. But one or the other (your expectations, or his efforts) needs to change. IMHO

Here are a few examples of what I believe to be "strong" expectations:




It's been my experience that holidays with blended families are always somewhat chaotic - no matter the level of preparation or forethought. Sometimes it's best just to go with the flow a little more and not let those things we cannot (and should not) control get the best of us. Anymore - I simply laugh at the events and enjoy it. Somehow - someway; everyone ends up having a great time and sleeps well that night.


I am not a big fan of the Meyers Briggs profiles, however that's another subject. I'm surprised that you feel so comfortable with him. I don't get that message when reading your descriptions.


I'm unsure what distance has to do with meeting EN's. Wouldn't you think that basic EN's should be met (by both of you) before there was any sort of commitment?

I feel that your BF is basically a nice guy, and cares about you as much as he will allow himself to - and that you are also a fine person [who is a bit more "fiery" than laid back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />] I agree that if your kids were not involved - your relationship would be much different. But that's true for all of us. However your kids are involved and "it is what it is". The fact that he's never had children is a definite stumbling block for you two. I don't feel he's resistant of your kids, - he just doesn't know what it's really like to be a Father-figure and/or a husband. And he may never get it. [Not a character flaw, just the reality of your sitch!] It's my very humble opinion that in order for this relationship to be successful; you will have to become much more flexible than you're describing and he will need to step out of the "comfort-zone" that he's created as a long-time single man. Otherwise, I fear resentment will consume you both.

I wish you two all the luck in the world. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FR