Last night was good, we went to WalMart to pick up some things for the kids. She saw Christmas cards and wanted to buy them so we can send them out with our new address here in Al. She is going to work on them today or tomorrow. She had already talked to the kids before I got home from work, but with the kids present to confirm what she said she told me everything, the kids had nothing to add to what she said. I said I had wanted to be there, but since she wanted to tell them by herself and she told me everything that was said I said thank you for your honesty, this does help rebuild trust, but I would have liked to have been here for it and think I have a right to be there whenever she discusses something like this with the kids. She didn't agree but accepted that. She brought me coffee this morrning, I thanked her for it, hugged her and kissed her, she seemed to appreciate it, but also seemed to want to turn her head a little away from the kiss (just a peck on the lips). She also says she feels like she is in an Uncle's house not her own house, feels uncomfortable. She has never lived in this house and only visited for short periods, we just bought it at the end of March of this year, it's brand new, just built. I asked if we needed to buy a new house in Feb after she retires, she said no. I asked her to try to decorate the house with me, you know put her mark on it and to try to accept responsibility and ownership of it as it is home for our children and will be her home in Feb, she said she would, but didn't see how that would change anything, I asked her to just try. She said she would, but doesn't see how it will help. I said it is like going through the motions of being a wife and mother. You haven't done that for an extended period of over 3.5 years and might need a little refresher, you might not want to do it, but if you try it you might like it.She still feels uncomfortable sleeping in the same bed, hugs and kisses, but says she is trying to feel something, but doesn't. I said you won't feel anything for awhile maybe even a year, but please let me meet your ENs. She said OK, and she will continue to try to meet mine except SF. I said OK, she has also said she will try to be more affectionate and more positive about things. She also said she trusts me and has faith in me, but doesn't see how I can be so positive about fixing the M and that some things can't be fixed. I asked her to just have faith, even a little bit, and work with me and we can make this happen. She accepted that, but is still a little skeptical.

We have MC this evening, hoping it will go well. Last week she said she wanted M to be 50/50 and was happy that I was listening and trying to understand her. We'll see how this evening goes. I think things are a little smoother, but can't seem to get her to understand that feelings will come last. The MC last week asked her if she would accept risk about M meaning M might work, she said yes, asked me to accept risk that M may not work, I said yes. Then told us to work on ENs, I think this will be an interesting part of MC this evening. She has been trying and has told me she has let her defenses down, but still holds out for feelings. I am going to ask MC about feelings and hope he will address the issue. ML, Orchid and any other FWWs do you have any other ideas???

Just got back from lunch. When I kissed her goodbye she kissed me back. 3 pecks on the lips and as I was about toturn she came in and gave me a kiss. I commented on it and she said it's not the first time, just the first time I really noticed. She thought that was funny, but seemed really happy I noticed.

Wow what does this mean?

Eagle - do not rush anything. She may have ment good things our not. Do not read into anything yet. Just hold those thoughts. It takes them time to clear from the Fog. Believe me the fog does roll back in from time to time and sure takes its time going away. Also do not believe anything she says yet. I learned to brace myself and not take his intentions and statements for fact for a long time. You are doing an excellent job with plan A. Keep going.

Well, the last couple of days have been real good. We went to MC Tues night, MC wanted to level the playing field and asked about her comments about not wanting to be here, she explained about her feelings, he asked about OM she explained all that (very painful for me & her). Mc stated that it was a fantasy as she had only known OM for 6-7 weeks and that OM was untested, but here I was after knowing each other almost 20 yrs and married over 17.5 yrs tested and found to meet even the hardest of tests and times. This made her mad (fantasy and being told that OM was a marriage breaker as well as I was the good guy). We discussed SF and other ENs, she didn't like that either, but he asked if I would let her determine when she was ready, I said yes so the ball is in her court. While discussing SF she stated that if she "Caved" and gave in to SF with me that would be rape, MC and I asked at the same time "how do you figure?" rape is a crime of violence against an unwilling person, if you give consent then how is that rape? She said she didn't know.

We discussed her attitude about the M and the need to be more positive about the M and me. She didn't see where she was being negative until MC gave her examples he has seen in our sessions. He advised her to try to improve her outlook, I gave an analagy of if you are told to go in the yard and clean up after the dog, you will not be as willing to do it as opposed to wanting to run and play in the back yard an knowing that you might step in something and doing it to keep from messing up your shoes. She understood that and has really tried to improve her attitude and actually want ot be here.

We discussed the meeting with the kids and that I shouldn't have said I had the right to be there as it came across to her that she didn't have any rights. Good point but I felt a little gunned down at that point. MC also gave us a form to fill out very similar to ENQ and asked us to work on that together. All in all a very good session I thought, WW was not so sure.

We discussed the session after the kids went to bed, and came to the conclusion that she needed to make a conscious decision to want to be here and try to rebuild our marriage. She actually cuddled with me that night and wanted to give me kisses. The next morning after the kids went to school we sat on the couch and cuddled and kissed until I had to go to work. When I came home for lunch we cuddled and kissed, I told her I didn't want to go back to work just yet and she said if you can, stay home. So i called in and stayed home we cuddled and kissed, held each other and ended up taking a nap until the kids came home from school.

Last night she wanted to cuddle and we fell asleep in each others arms. This morning was more of the same, she aslo said she was seeing progress and that it was good progress.

So far it looks like she is starting to come around a little.

ML Orchid and any others please comment.

Thank you all for your support and expert advice.

Sounds wonderful! But please be prepared for a roller coaster. There will be good days and bad days before it gets consistently good. So don't be discouraged if you see a couple of set backs, ok? It is all part of the normal process.

Why shouldn't you have said you have a right to be there when she explains her affair to the kids? You do have a right to protect the kids from her fogged out nonsense.

MC said I left her with no options and the statement made her feel that she had no rights. Reasonable considering she has been adhering to PORH and trying to POJA very hard. She has and is meeting all ENs except Affection and SF. I'm prepared for the rollercoaster ride, well as well as can be expected. She goes back to OKC Sunday evening.
The kids and I will be driving to OKC for Christmas and New Years. Hope this progress continues.

Thank you ML

Does she feel she has a "right" to spin the kids about the truth of her affair? I don't think she has that right.

And exactly why would she insist that she speak to the kids alone, Eagle? The only reason I can fathom is that she intends on bullshi**ing them. If she is telling them the truth, which I doubt, there is absolutely no reason their father shouldn't be there.

Well, she already talked to them, your concern was my concern as well. The kids were there when she told me what was said and I asked them later to reconfirm what was said and they had nothing else to add. So I had to believe her. The MC also stated that at 11 & 13 the kids would not be easily BS'd, and I had to agree with that as our kids are very mature for their age due to being in a one parent household for so long. As I stated in an earlier post DS 11, after seeing and reading 4 emails between WW & OM came out to the garage where I was smoking to tell me "Dad, Mom is having an affair!" and that is what started the whole thing, phone call to WW at work telling her to het her A$$ home, 1st Sgt to start the ball rolling, and the Chaplain to get some assistance.

She feels that she is their mother, no argument there, and also has the right to speak with her children when she wants to. She is trying hard to work on the M "for the kids", but is also trying for us.

I believe MC Tues evening was an eye opener, she tried to put up an argument with the MC about OM, but he gunned her down with the truth and she seemed to accept that he was right. MC aslo told her he thought she was vulnerable and subconsciously sending signals she was available, she denied sending signals until he added subconsciously, and then he hit her with this guy was taking advantage of her vulnerability. He then asked me what I knew and I told him that when my son called OM and gave him He** I talked to OM and his girlfriend was there, DS had woken them up. She has always told me I was lying about this, I told her to ask DS. MC asked me how I knew it was OMs GF, I said he told me and I could hear her in the phone jacking him up about here? in our bed? etc... She now believes that and I think is finally going through real withdrawl. Not sure, but seems that way. Fog seems to be getting thinner tha last couple of days, but as you know you never can be sure.

Thank you ML you always keep me thinking and on my toes.

Wow, I love your MC! He is doing a superb job, Eagle. Is he the one who recommended Marriage Builders? He sounds like he has some good common sense and is PRO-marriage. You would be shocked to know how many MC are NOt pro-marriage and actually cause more harm than good.

I think the most significant and promising development here is that your W now understands that OM was cheating on her. That is very significant, because that realization is ruinous to her affair. The path has been cleared for her to comprehend that she has been played by a player.

ML,

I found this site before I started MC, the MC was provided by my company, 3 free visits then med ins kicks in. He uses CMFI, Dr Ferguson & Dr McMinn, I believe it's a little more on the religious side, we always pray after our sessions.

Thank you again Mel

Last couple of days have been OK. She still feels that while trying to meet ENs she is caving, even though we agreed before she came out that we would try to meet top 5 ENs. Both MC sessions and the MC session last month when she was here the MC asked if she would try to work on ENs, she said yes. When we got home though she stated she would not meet affection and SF. I let it go until Thurs and pushed too hard, she says she understands my needs, but didn't want to so I gave up. I asked Fri night, she says she caved Friday night and gave in to SF. I felt bad about that and asked her why she felt she caved and why she caved. She said she has caved on everything, hand holding, hugs, kisses, sleeping in same bed, showers, and especially SF. When I asked last night she said OK, no attitude or anything, seemed like she was into it, but she says she just wanted it over and she caved. I found this very confusing seeing as how she has said she has seen progress all week with showers, hugs, kissing, sleeping in same bed, hand holding, etc... I said I thought she had shown a change in attitude and was showing signs of progress as well, but when she says she has caved just to keep the peace, I have to think that she isn't trying. I asked her what does trying mean to her, she said doing what she is doing, I said I thought trying meant you wanted to try, not cave in and asked again about the attitude change. She said yes her attitude has changed, but she still feels she has caved in on every issue. I said I thought this was a setback, she said what's up with that can't I see she is trying and has shown progress, I said yes, but if you are caving in then is that really progress? If you feel you are caving in then we are back to where we were pre A. That is not a place I want to be. This is driving me nuts. Last night we were trying to decide where to go for dinner, DD said she didn't want to go out, especially to the place DS asked to go to. It triggered an AO at DD and WW, I ahd reached a high level of frustration and it all came out. WW said she understands I am on a rollercoaster and was waiting for an outburst. I will admit DD not wanting to go out to eat anywhere is a big trigger, and it was set to a very light pull last night. All was good until that trigger. I apologized to everyone, WW said she wouldn't hold it against me, but I think it was a very big LB. This whiole trip has been very confusing, we have discussed my confusion and WWs confusion to no avail. She doesn't understand my confusion and I find her words to be double talk or talking in circles. When she says "I'm trying, you have even said you see how hard I'm trying, you ahve seen positive progress, I've told you I've seen positive progress, even though I don't want to be here or with you, even though everything I do is caving in to you, so how can you be confused. I say I am because of what you just said, she can't understand, she says she is here for the kids, doesn't see how wanting to try for the kids can spill over to us. I just don't know anymore. Any advice???

Sorry for not posting for a while.

Last Thursday was a very good day all went well. Friday she hit one of my triggers and all went down the tubes. We exchanged emails and she started responding. She also has been trying to call me at work during the day, between patients. All good. She opened up during the email exchanges and we were able to get a few things squared away.

She has come to the conclusion that what she was trying was not working and causing me pain and decided to try the MB way (my way) she seems happier. She also said she is thru punishing me, but still doesn't understand why I feel punished. I asked her to put her rings back on her ring finger, she did, I asked her where the family, I and our M stood in her priority list as her actions did not match her words. Now her actions show we are at the top, still competing with the AF for #1, but running neck and neck.

She is looking forward to our Christmas visit and working M in person with me, reading LB's. I asked about the ILYs as I had looked at previous emails and why they stopped so abruptly, she said she was confused and didn't want to confuse me anymore than she already had. I said I would like her to start ILY again and get back into the habit, again she said OK.

SF over Thanksgiving was miserable, I asked why as we had always enjoyed it, I also asked if she felt she was betraying OM, she said yes, I couldn't help but laugh and say "How F'd up is that? You betrayed me with him, he has a GF, took advantage of you, tried to break up our M, and you are trying to be loyal to him? Think about what you just said, do you see how screwed up that is? I have known you 20+ years, been married to you 17.5 years, have a marriage license, have been loyal to you for almost 4yrs while you were away in the AF, have done a great job (her words not mine) raising our children in your absence, and you tell me this. Have you lost your mind?" She then said she was sorry, obviously her approach wasn't working (hedging her bets in my opinion, thinking after an undetermined amount of time if things weren't better she would go abck to OKC to OM) and she needed to try something different. I said "as I have told you before, in order for you to see any results you must be focused on the task at hand, without distractions, ie... hedging your bets, put forth a maximum effort. She said she will work on me, put forth 110%, let her feelings ride for a while and see how that works. So far she seems much happier, more pleasant to talk to, has stated again that I am making deposits, and if she feels that I am going to make a withdrawl trying to block it and build more deposits. She is much more positive and when I asked her to do an NC letter she actually said she would consider it while we are there for Christmas.

She aslo told me I knew what she wanted (D), I told her I dont do D, but I do do MB and rebuilding M and Family. I will not discuss D period. She was a little stunned to say the least and I then asked her to work on improving her attitude as she has always been a very positive person, and since A she has been so negative. She said she would and I have already seen results.

All very surprising, but I am still cautious and keeping a wait and see attitude (actions rather than words, her request), but so far her actions are bearing up to her words. The true test will be the next 2 weeks.

She is also lurking occaisionally and is considering posting in the near future.

Sorry this is so long, butI had to get to a good place before I could post this.

Thank you all Mel, Orchid, MM, Fh and others for helping me through this.

Please continue to post to me and offer your very wise and sage advice. All of you are great! Again Thank you!

Chuck AKA Eagle15

Wow. I think you are very good at this, Chuck. You are very straightforward but you do it without lovebusting. You were on the edge with "are you crazy??" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> but you recovered very well and got your point across! I don't sense that she became defensive with that, but rather sort of WOKE UP! I think that is fabulous!

Here is where I get confused:


Is she saying she STILL wants a D?

I think she would do well by coming here. There are many reformed WS's here who could help her through this.

Before she decided to change her attitude and give 110% to working on M she was still wanting D so she could live with OM. She was so sure of herself she offered me the house in FL, house here, all vehicles, full custody with visitation for her, all she wanted was the house in OKC and her Surburban, she was even going to give me back 65K in down payment money on the house in OKC. I told her no deal I only do MB, not D. She says her way wasn't working so now she's trying my (MB) way, and it is NOT caving. Just talked to her and she is spending the evening reading LB after she has dinner, last night she decided she didn't want to go to her Christmas party at the PT job and stayed in and read LB instead. I am very hopeful and optimistic, but cautious.

I believe by the end of the year or early in the new year she will be posting. I have printed and asked her to read different threads, while she says she is different because she is who she is, she did say she saw similarities. when I told her WS's were all saying the same thing like reading a script and showed her where she had told me the exact things in some of the threads here she couldn't believe it.

The fog has thinned a little.

Thank you Mel for helping me so much!

You are a very quick study, Chuck! So, her desire to get a D was in the past tense, right?

I believe so, she said she is putting 110% effort into the marriage and is studying LB, has already read SAA and we will be reading HNHN together while we are there for Christmas along with the workbook. I am still cautious though. Can't help it after all that has gone on so far.
She is doing all the right things though and not complaining. She is looking forward to coming to AL and finding a job and being an on-site, in the house mother and wife.