Tell her you are definitely NOT enthusiastic about her having a secret cell phone. That should be the end of that. As Dr. Harley says, in POJA, you NEVER do something the other is not enthusiastic about. END OF STORY.

Thanks Mel,

GBH,

Look a little further up in this thread, She has and has always had total access to everything financial, ****** she used to do all the bills and tell me how much I could get at the ATM, 40.00 a week. this went on from marriage until she went to Japan, 13 years. We have always had joint account, no seperate accounts, her wish, sounded good to me, I never questioned it.

There is a big difference between POJAing an account and doing it, hidding the paperwork and mail that comes in about it, and then lying about it when asked. Why would she need over a 1000.00 per month???

I do not "dole out an allowance" to her. She is a big girl knows how to use ATMs and the check book. She is trying to be a victim and you are aiding and abbetting. Thanks GBH for your objectivity!

Now what do you have to say about her cell phone from OKC??? Hidden, lied about it, lied again about where it was, arguing about keeping it, no reason for it unless she is lying about her intentions. Lying is #1 on my LB list VERY BIG LB!!! Very Close to a deal breaker!
What do I do now??? Hold her hand, sing Kumbaya, and become a doormat??? Please GBH tell me what I should do!

Sorry, Eagle, I'm not up to speed on this whole thread. Have been in and out since its inception and having a full time job, going to school, and being invovled in a volunteer organization, I don't have time to review the whole thing.

Secret cell phone is definitely a deal breaker. I either missed that part of the thread or my aging brain forgot about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Neither cell phones nor bank accounts nor credit cards should be secret. I can understand your anger and you are perfectly justified to call her on that.

Another question (sorry): If you do file for D, will you go through with your threats to cut her and her parents off from the kids?

Just trying to point out that neither of you is acting like a saint in this sitch. She's fighting for independence; you are fighting for radical honesty. Looks like you both know how to push each other's buttons, no question.

That's OK.

Yes I will. I will not allow her to continue to hurt and abuse our children.

You are right. I asked her if we could lay down our weapons and start over, she said OK whatever. Sooooo what now?

Perhaps stopping the threats to cut her off from the kids might be a start. Do you really think you have the legal right to cut her off from the kids? What does your lawyer say (I can only assume you have consulted one what with this serious charge you are making).

How was she ABUSING the children? That's a pretty serious charge, Eagle. And don't try to pass off her getting cross with one of them as abuse. So has she been physically beating them? Constant verbal abuse? Neglecting them? Denying them food, shelter, and other essentials? Most of all, do the kids feel abused?

I would think that if she is truly abusing the children, you would have removed them from the abusive situation by now. To do anything less would peg you as an abusive father for letting it happen. So perhaps it's time to get real, stop the drama, and try something productive.

My suggestion is that you find yourselves a good MC and commit to at least trying.

"Yes I will. I will not allow her to continue to hurt and abuse our children."

Eagle? You both are hurting and abusing each other and the children. You can't enforce a boundary on something you're doing yourself. That would be like saying you can have an A and she can't.

Agreeing to lay down your weapons is the best start. Giving each other a clean slate, being new, seeing each other for who you are and not having it corroded with all the resentments you both have made in yourselves is where my H and me started recovery.

Be safe. Choose your actions on your code, not on her response. She can do the same. The effect are immediate relief. That relief will evaporate the moment you judge, and all the clean slate commitment will dissolve when you DJ. You have to recommit all over again. You will remember the relief.

Your weapons to be laid down...

Judgment - which includes Blame, Resentment, Measuring sticks, pointing fingers, facts (instead of the opinions, feelings and beliefs they are).
DJs, AOs, SDs
Believing there is the truth, not your truth and her truth.
Believing you are responsible for her thoughts, feelings and beliefs.
Her believing you are responsible for her thoughts, feelings and belief.
Comparison, part of judgment...holding her to your standards and you to hers.
Believing you can control her, make her, cure her.
Her believing she can do the same to you.

You pick up your tools:

Ownership
Choice
Listen & Repeat
"I feel" and "I believe" statements
Acknowledgement
Stating your intent "To inform. To support. To heal. To harm" State it, own it.
Respect (you are separate and equal to everyone...actions don't change that; attitude doesn't change that)

You lay down the weapons and you do not allow yourself to pick them up to use on yourself, either.

You hold the tools and use them on yourself as well as others.

I believe she is not fighting to be independent of you, but to be respected as separate and equal to you.

LA

GBH,

Alabama is not a 50-50 state, they have specific laws concerning adultery adn abandonment. They allow for a very short period when the divorce is concerning adultery.

Abuse to me is keeping the kids in the dark, them not knowing whether or not she will jump ship from day to day, etc... She refuses to give them a safe feeling, keeps them in limbo.

The kids do not see the interactions between WW and I, they do see and feel the tension in the house. When secret cell phones are found and it is being discussed they do hear about it, they are not deaf, I'm the one with hearing aids.

I am in IC, we do MC with Jennifer Harley Chalmers every Wednesday evening. She has not found an IC yet.

LA thank you, I tried to discuss you post with WW. I hope she will read it and think about it. I would love to work on this with her as a team. I really do want to put my weapons down, Jennifer told me the same last night.

Quote:
[color:"blue"]Eagle? You both are hurting and abusing each other and the children. You can't enforce a boundary on something you're doing yourself. That would be like saying you can have an A and she can't.

Agreeing to lay down your weapons is the best start. Giving each other a clean slate, being new, seeing each other for who you are and not having it corroded with all the resentments you both have made in yourselves is where my H and me started recovery.

Be safe. Choose your actions on your code, not on her response. She can do the same. The effect are immediate relief. That relief will evaporate the moment you judge, and all the clean slate commitment will dissolve when you DJ. You have to recommit all over again. You will remember the relief.

Your weapons to be laid down...

Judgment - which includes Blame, Resentment, Measuring sticks, pointing fingers, facts (instead of the opinions, feelings and beliefs they are).
DJs, AOs, SDs
Believing there is the truth, not your truth and her truth.
Believing you are responsible for her thoughts, feelings and beliefs.
Her believing you are responsible for her thoughts, feelings and belief.
Comparison, part of judgment...holding her to your standards and you to hers.
Believing you can control her, make her, cure her.
Her believing she can do the same to you.

You pick up your tools:

Ownership
Choice
Listen & Repeat
"I feel" and "I believe" statements
Acknowledgement
Stating your intent "To inform. To support. To heal. To harm" State it, own it.
Respect (you are separate and equal to everyone...actions don't change that; attitude doesn't change that)

You lay down the weapons and you do not allow yourself to pick them up to use on yourself, either.

You hold the tools and use them on yourself as well as others.

I believe she is not fighting to be independent of you, but to be respected as separate and equal to you.

LA
[/color]
The above quote really got my attention, not sure why, but it did, Thank You.

Can you explain code to me??? I'm not sure what it means, also can you provide examples??? I would appreciate it.

You choose your own code to live by...

You make a list of standards...what you do not allow yourself to do to others or to yourself...

You make a list of boundaries...what you do not allow others to do to you...

They will match.

As a test, take your list of standards...the allow nots...and flip them around as "must do's"...remember, whatever there are for others, they must also be what you do for you...

For instance...I looked at what I was wailing about inside myself when my DH was WH...

I wanted...

Honesty
Consideration
Appreciation
Attention
Effort
Acceptance

I didn't want

Dishonesty
Rejection
Being used
Ignored
Judged

I played with these, mulling and tasting them...figured out...

Honesty...I wanted to be honest with myself and others, and when lied to, that would cross my boundary...however...I could not make WH be honest with himself...see how that couldn't be my boundary?

Consideration...well, if I thought about it, consideration meant that I wasn't last place, to WH or myself...I only had control over one of those...so I chose to put consideration into my code...I would consider what my WH said, listen and repeat, no judgment...repeating to myself that this was his stuff, not mine...which got me to respect...which I added to my code...and part of consideration is appreciation, which is also part of honesty, stating what I appreciate...geesh, and all that takes attention, which is awareness...and boy, that's a lot of effort...

See where one thing you're thinking of will lead you to another?

Then I boiled it all down to one...Acceptance. Accepting that we are all separate and equal, by God's design...all capable (so fixing/pleasing is out of the question); to live respectfully, I would keep my own stuff my own...ownership...which eliminates the need for blame...oh, that is a boundary!

A rather metaphoric process.

Result (chill when served):

Accept; accept humans as they are

Respect; every one is separate and equal, with their own thoughts, feelings and beliefs; to react is disrespectful to myself and others

Be Honest; express appreciation, admiration, thoughts, feelings and beliefs


What I didn't add to each of those was: know their actions about them, not me. This was the crucial part because each one of those depend on that.

I am human and the world revolves around me. I'm the axis, and yes, a little off kilter. My human condition, made by God with only these eyes to see out of--to know this is to know my limits.

I have the pull to walk into every human I meet, so I can live other lives. I violate my code (acceptance for self, respect for others and honesty for self) when I do this. I do not allow myself to do this.

In the same vein, what others do, they choose, because I know I choose. I cannot make them, manipulate or force them. They choose.

Unless I maintain my standards, I cannot enforce my boundaries. There is internal conflict when I attempt it...I get mixed emotions (information) coming from beliefs I am putting in opposition.

I changed my beliefs to align with my standards and boundaries. I stay aware, in the present, and do my best.

I am not allowed to judge others or myself. I check myself and say, "Better?" "Worse?" And adjust as necessary.

I am not creating another me...by recreating my image of me...I have to be honestly me, and that has made the difference.

You can do this.

Tell me why you shared with MrsEagle, instead of keeping this all to yourself?

LA

I would like for us to work together on this, she thought laying down our weapons might work, this looked like a great way to get started. It appeared to be something to be shared, not kept secret, I don't do secrets well. I provided a printed copy to her asked if she would read and we could discuss, that's as far as it went. She agreed to read and discuss, we have not gone farther yet. She also read it on this thread. I felt that doing something together with a common goal might be a good thing. If she wanted to work on it we would if not I would.

Eagle,

I know you want for you both to work together on this. I get that. I've gotten it throughout your thread. My message, the one God is driving towards you, is that you only control you. You have your thoughts, feelings and beliefs and they are yours. You are addicted to your wife, emmeshed, and it feeds your fury, creates your resentments and gives you permission to focus on anyone else but yourself.

Your time has come. Just yours. This isn't about secrets, it is about you stop disrespecting your wife by educating her. You share what you learn, for you, not her. You share your thoughts, feelings and beliefs with "I" statements to demonstrate to you and her, you know they are your truth.

See the bind? If she isn't discussing it with you, what are you doing? Are you looking at it, probing inside yourself, wondering what judgment gives you in the form of a payoff? Discovering how you operate and why?

Let's work on it...what thoughts did you have? What beliefs do you have in relation to acting from a code and not reacting to others?

You matter. You count. Just you. You are separate and equal to everyone on the planet, but Eagle, you keep secrets...you keep them from yourself. You're human. It happens. I am reaching out to you with nonjudgment. I know you feel pain, frustration, anger and resentment daily. All of those, you are giving yourself half of them. It is your half that you control. I want you to stop. I believe you really want to stop.

LA

Well,

Just found that NC has been broken with original OM!

What now???

Boundaries Eagle. I told you this.

Your W will not withdraw and be able to focus on your M while she is in contact with OM. And its is enormously disrespectful to you to maintain contact also.

You need to show her that you want to work on a restored marriage with her, but do not NEED to do this, and so will not tolerate such flagrant disrespect and dishonesty.

Boundaries.

If your W chooses to leave then, so be it. If keeping her home comes at a price of no recovery progress, disrespect and persistent contact, do you want that ?

Its your call Eagle. What will you tolerate
?

Happy Easter to all MBers.

I'm back from vacation and wondering about your response to my last post to you. I see where you said there was contact--did MrsE tell you or did you find out in another way?

LA

I found out about it by checking cell bill for her secret cell, also multiple contacts in Jan, she says attempts, who knows.

Hope your vacation went well.

She says attempts...which means what? The calls didn't go through? Does MrsE believe then there was no contact, only attempts at contact?

How are you doing with the DJing...what I wrote about in my post to you wasn't just sharing my perspective...I was asking for yours.

Why is there a secret cell? Weren't toilets made for dropping them in?

How can you have a secret cell that isn't secret? Help me out...you both know she has it...who is it secret from?

LA

Attempts means she called the number and got voice mail or no answer, so therefore there was no contact according to her. calls were 1 - 2 minutes in duration. Yes she believes that if she didn't actually talk to OM then there was no contact.

I believe I'm improving in the DJ area, she judges that and hasn't brought it up so I believe I'm improving. Judging myself I truly believe I'm improving, and working very hard to check whatever comes out of my mouth before it comes out, very unnatural for me but I'm doing it and getting used to it.

The secret cell phone is one she bought 4 Jan and has been using for contact with OM through an intermediary and direct contact. I found the bill first, she told me it was in OKC with her best friend, so I called her best friend to have her send it here, best friend wouldn't answer call, but called WW immediately, I then called WW, she confirmed she was on phone with best friend and that she had the phone here all along. I got a hold of it and have it now. I asked her to turn it in and get rid of it, she wants to wait until she "has enough money to pay the penalty for ending contract early" I told her I would pay it off as it is very upsetting and disturbing to me.

It's not secret anymore, I have it and will not return it, she wants to POJA it's return, I said sure, I DO NOT ENTHUSIASTICALLY agree you should have it. I never will.

I have not destroyed it as she asked me not to. I do keep it where she cannot find it. It was secret from me, now that I found it, it is no longer a secret, but it is easier to refer to it as that as she also has a cell phone, family plan, same acct as mine, we have over 4000 rollover minutes saved up and get 1400 more every month so there really is no need for another phone. Our phones cost about 100 per month, 3 phones sharing minutes, her phone from OKC costs 65 a month. Not a very cost conscious purchase, and being cost conscious was the reason for having it, according to WW.

I just cringed when I read this because I think you're shooting yourself in the foot here.

NOT because you won't return the cell phone - I think that's a reasonable boundary.

The reason I cringed is because you're labeling this POJA when it's nothing of the sort. This is you flat out telling her what your boundary is - it's so much closer to a selfish demand than a POJA.

That is going to come back and shoot you in the foot should you two ever make your way into a true recovery because when you bring up POJA'ing something all she's going to remember is how you used it as a cudgel to club her back into line and NOT how it can be used as an tool to build a stronger marriage for you. She's going to run quickly in the other direction because, right now, you're teaching her that POJA means DO WHAT I TELL YOU RIGHT NOW AND WITH NO REGARD TO YOUR OWN FEELINGS - NO ONE GIVES A DARN WHAT YOU FEEL OR THINK - MY ENTHUSIASM MATTERS - YOURS DOESN'T So, how do you like that POJA, eh?

Like I said, I have no problem with you refusing to give the phone back if that's what you feel is right. But, calling it POJA is just going to ruin any chance you might ever have to really POJA some day down the line. How will she know the difference between today's POJA which is "No one cares how enthisiastic she is about anything." and tomorrow's POJA when "We're trying to reach a mutually (that means both of you) enthusiastic agreement?"

I think you'd be better served to call it what it is: a boundary than trying to dress it up as something it isn't. Be honest. You really don't care whether or not she's enthusiastic about this, do you?

Mys

MYS,

I didn't call it POJA she did. She wanted to POJA it, I did not. I called it a boundary, labeled it as unacceptable to me. Sorry if I did not convey that clearly. I was Honest with her.