I rarely start threads. Maybe one or two in all the time I have been a member. It is with trepidation and humility I throw myself out here and start this one.


I have been thinking about something off and on for a while now and I wonder if it is worth getting some opinions/feedback. I searched the thread archives and didn’t find anything relevant. It’s a curiosity thing. This is a gedunken experiment only.

There are some very smart people around here - BS, FWS and in between. Much smarter than I am in these things. So, I am asking any and all for some feedback wrt the following.

MB is an excellent set of plans, tools and methods to recover from infidelity. Perhaps the best I found anywhere during my difficult times. Dr Harley clearly lays out the steps, tools and even the limitations of his plans and approaches. Their genesis in the treatment of addictions gives it, IMO, particular relevance and scientific support.

The one drawback I see a lot of on MB, and in my case, is the prolonged heartbreak of BS through weeks of Plan A and then a year or more of Plan B. And then, to top it off, a high probability of a false recovery or two.

There appears to me to be a lack of a tough love component in all this. Throwing an MB brand monkey-wrench into a typical affair takes an awful lot out of the BS. And it sweeps up a lot of Ms that really should end.

What if, hypothetically, the recommended approach was to immediately divorce upon DDay? No plan A or B. Just Immediate And Mandatory D. WS must leave, period! What if we could make it the law of the land?

Note, I am not talking about HNHN, long term recovery (M or personal) nor downstream affair proofing the M (e.g. meeting ENs). The issues for me are immediately minimize the pain of dealing with an active affair and prevent starting out on a doomed recovery.

The BS completely and immediately removes themselves from the WS in every regard, including legal. Everything is now up to the WS, period. Tough Love.

Of course, after this mandatory D, a FWS may woo back their BS all they want. They can date, fill out endless questionnaires, MC, IC, whatever. But, they start over again from scratch, including all daily contact.

The couple can re-engage and even remarry at leisure. This happens quite often already. I suspect remarriage would happen for the same couples who recover well using MB anyway.

Of course, there need to be exceptions. A totally unexpected drunken ONS while on a business trip, say, with the WS immediately picking themselves up and saying, Whoa that was wrong. I will never do that again! And then confessing everything (Radical Honesty). Triggering the D in this case would be up to the BS.

And maybe for a short EA with RH.

But most other cases would be instant and mandatory D. No matter what.

I wonder if more BS would be better off in the long run.

Actually, I suspect many FWS would also be better off in the long run. I am thinking of several very unhappy long term recovered(?) FWS now posting on MB.

In my case, I was in panic mode for the first six months after DDay2. I was afraid of a D. But, if D had been mandatory I would have gotten over it at about the same time as I did with Plan A+B anyway.

In hindsight, I now think both FWW and I would be in stronger positions regarding if and when and what kind of M we might reestablish if we remarried. It would have been up to FWW to pursue me if she was so inclined and I could have explored with a clean conscience other options entirely.


For the scientific minded –

There is an analysis tool used in Detection Theory called a Receiver Operator Characteristic (ROC). It relates the statistical probability of being wrong (a false alarm) to the probability of a correct detection of whatever you are looking for. It is an S shaped curve starting at the origin (0, 0) and asymptotically approaching the unity probability of always being wrong but also catching every looked for incidence at the (1, 1) point.

ROCs are a universal curve for all pass/fail phenomena in noise. Different curves for different processes are just stretched out or compressed or have the S inflection higher or lower (scaled).

Do MB methods operate on a ROC up near the (1, 1) point? MB seems to have a good probability of success because it also captures a huge number of false recoveries. Thus penalizing the BS, and many FWS, in an M that really should end.

Mandatory D would move the operating point farther down the ROC towards the origin. Fewer recoveries, but far fewer false recoveries.

The optimal operating point on a ROC is where the infection rolls over to head for the (1, 1) point. Above there you get a slow increase in success for increasingly more false alarms.

I suspect mandatory D with option to remarry would be nearer this optimum, statistically speaking.



Ok, I’ll go back to sleep now. Sorry for the interruption. This is sort of relevant to me and I wonder where the errors in my thinking might be.

With prayers,

edited for typos.

Appy:

Where do you want it?

(the answer a geophysicist gives to the question "what's 2+2?", after the geologist says "between 3 and 5" and the engineer says "4.00000").

But seriously, what do you want to do?

I've certainly thought back to d-day and wondered how things would be today if I'd responded to my W's "would you rather I wentg away for a while?" with a resounding "HECK YEAH!", instead of clinging and saying "no!", or if I'd exposed the A right away.

All exercises in mental masturbation at this point in time, though. Certainly for me, it is.

Here I am. Time to deal.

-Qfwfq

Great post, Apelion. I asked my WH to leave, and he was out of the house within an hour of me finding out about the affair.

Then I wasted about a year trying to save a doomed marriage. The only good part of it all is that I have no regrets. I don't look back and wonder if the marriage could have been saved.

However it came at a great price. Some days I wish I had just filed for divorce, and had the whole thing over.

Aps....

I don't recall, have you ever coached with one of the Harleys?

Reason I ask, is I don't recall anyone who has a situation like yours - ever telling us what SH would say on the subject.

Especially in your case where the affair was so long.

I've seen where someone posted a few weeks ago that when they called in to Dr. Harley's radio show and explained their situation, Dr. Harley told them to divorce immediately.

The poster was very very surprised to hear Dr. Harley say this. Their situation wasn't like yours if I recall correctly.

What do you think about calling into Dr. Harley's radio show, and asking him what he thinks?

Edited to add - What about your son? If I remember correctly you wanted to do eveything you could to keep your marriage together in the best interest of your son.

How would you know that you did the best you could, if you hadn't at least tried to save it versus going straight to divorce.

Your role modeling to you son of doing the right thing for your family is a very high priority too. I would think you would want to look back 10 years from now, feeling peaceful that you did everything you could to keep your family intact.

Pssssssssst....

Hi Q!!!

How do you know which marriages should end?

Using what criteria?

I'm still working on my criteria... what is yours?

Appy, it is so hard to go back over the "what ifs". I made many mistakes out of fear and pure stubborness and my need to control. I don't know that immediate D would work for M's with children. That would be too sudden and shocking for most kids I think.

You forgot the accountant who says what would you like it to be!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Just like parents who often have a very difficult time implementing tough love because of the guilt factor, people don't always see things clearly and aren't able to assess their own situations with a detached eye. IE Perhaps they weren't always the best parents, they may have been neglectful, they may have been lazy, they may have cared more about the material or social status then they cared about raising a happy, productive child. But tough love is often the only thing which may bring the wayward child around.

However, I think I agree that if the WS's doesn't end the affair on DD and implement recovery of the marriage themselves, the BS may be a lot better off to get out immediately.

Would the chances of the marriage recovering be any better? It depends I think, on how strong the marriage was before and on if there is a basis for the BS's guilt. In other words if the BS was a good spouse then what is the point of Plan A? If the BS's sucked at being a spouse then a good Plan A is in order.

The hard part is assessing the situation when you are caught up in it, and yet only the two involved really have all the info needed to make this assessment.

However I am more concerned with personal recovery now than marital recovery. What good are you to your kids, to the world or to a potential (current) spouse if you are not recovered?

And then again sometimes personal recovery means sticking it out and taking it until you have become the spouse you should have been before the marriage fell apart. And sometimes it means getting the ****** out of the sitch as soon as possible.

Only you really know.

I don't think one can decide and measure an immediate divorce as a negative or positive factor in a BS heartbreak.........

heartbreak is what it is........

there is no proof that instant divorce diminishes it
there is no proof that instant divorce compounds it.

ARK^^

Instant divorce certainly wouldn't diminish the heartbreak. But I do think that Plan A should be much shorter, especially if the marriage was good before the affair.

I waited around much too long trying to save a marriage that really probably shouldn't have been saved.

Plan B is where the BS can really do the work of healing, and also take a hard look at the marriage. Once I finally got in a strong Plan B, I realized that there wasn't much to miss about my WH.

but believer only you could have made that decision..
only you know that answer.............

the truth is the decision for how long is always up to the BS...no matter the "recommendations"...

so there will always be margin of more time or less time with each person..........and no definite time line will ever be 100% correct...

and lets be honest for everyone who says I wish I had not done it so long...we can find ones that say I wish I had done it longer..........

I don't think there is any right answer...but I do believe that the methods here leave time for processing and diminish knee jerk actions and down the roads regrets.....

ARK

"I don't think there is any right answer...but I do believe that the methods here leave time for processing and diminish knee jerk actions and down the roads regrets....."

This is so true, but I'm thinking a couple of months.

Ark, I've seen lots of folks here say they gave it too much time, but very few say they wish they'd done it longer. Maybe some will pop in.

""Instant divorce certainly wouldn't diminish the heartbreak.""

I must disagree on this one. The heartbreak would still be there, but it would not last as long. It would be a quick "ripping of the band aid" rather than a long slow ROLLERCOASTER. Ah yes the rollercoaster!!

Plus, I think the BS would keep much of their self esteem! Don't all BSs down deep in their hearts, feel they are less than they were, by staying? Just a LITTLE??

Also, manditory D would eleviate the "can I trust you?" issue, the "movies in our head" would go away quicker (out of sight, out of mind), the SNOOPING and SPYING would not be neccessary, and the overall emotional chaos would not be continuously happening.

Heck, it has been over a year and 1/2 since my Dday and that rollercoaster is still running. Not as high and low as before, but it is still there.

I am glad we did not get the big D, of course. Just throwing in my .02.

k

Krusht...

I don't think anyone knows for sure..and each can only speak for themselves...how long the heartbreak lasts...

the grieving process for an end of a marriage....is unique for every person that goes through it...

plenty of people go through plan A and Plan B at their own pace and come out on the other side feeling they did all they could to save what they believed to be salvagable...
with no regrets...

imagine the amount of time that potentially would be wasted on people that instantly divorced then spent ooodles of time regretting that decision.......

instant divorce can then lead to instant dating...pulling more people in to the mix for use and abuse....

all the while waiting for the WS to whoo back the BS...
and the children remain the casualities tossed in waves of uncertainty.......

crap, instant divorce would feed right in to disposable marriages and their lack of meaning that the media love to apply....

why would we go to weddings....why would we say for better or worse...in sickness and in health..
why would we ever say till death till up part....etc...

and the coffers of the lawyers would flourish....

instant divorce would just be further undermeaning of marriage...AND would in my opinion increase infidelity...since everyones doing it ...

ARK

Ark,

I feel the same way, but I could not have expressed it as well as you have.

Thanks.

How about something even more radical - abolish marriage as a legal construct altogether. Partners could choose renewable 3 year civil union contracts, which, by default would expire and require active recommittment of both parties to continue. Any legal obligations to children and family would be purely a function of genetic/adoptive relationships.

Concept would make parents legally responsible for children and force them to take an active role in maintaining a relationship with their partner.

A competing suitor or party desiring to exit early would be required to "buy out" an existing contract to pursue a legal relationship with a party.

Offended parties could terminate upon breach of good faith without penalty and even require the offending party to pay out the contract.

Who knows?! In my case, my husband cheated, I ended up in the hospital in shock (given the long-term cheating and the nature of it), walked out ... leaving him everything (even the kids) I was in such a fog; he used that as justification to live as a single man would, a "stud" at that, have you, even though he still wanted the marriage! His parents lived nearby and "babysat" constantly. But with me gone, he could have his cake and eat it too until I returned. All the while thinking he was wanting me back ... but he was drinking himself into oblivion and having sex with everything with two legs since he was so "heartbroken" and wanted me to come home. PUUULLLEEEEZZZZZZZZZZ
So ... had I known, would I have come back? Sure ... to kick HIM out! I was suffering from temporary insanity to leave and not kick him out to the curb IMO. But that's how devastated and shocked I was at the time. I was so sedated I could not make good choices. And at the same time, could not bear the sight of him.

So ... we ended up with even more devastation to deal with.

What if? What if? I could ask that all day.

Ark^^,

I totally agree with all you said. I was playing the devil's advocate.

I am glad I am still married and recovering. It is worth all the crap we feel.

k

you are a little devil

ark