Hi All,

My WS is on her 2nd A with the same OM... we divorced.... then we re-married each other (after a very brief marriage to OM)

He's much older than us both but has plenty of money...
Anyway... at first she had NC with OM... then he would call her cell and threaten to jump off a bridge...or kill himself in some other way.... told her over and over how much she ruined his life... etc... first she told me and said he was pathetic...then...I guess he got through to her...so they snuck around behind my back for the 4+ years of our SECOND marriage to each other... (TWENTY YEARS TOTAL MARRIAGE) OM finally won... all he had to do was to buy her a one bedroom house on a river... (what a bargain huh?)

Well, she trys to push my buttons to see if I'm "Still there" once in a while but mostly... no contact (wish she was as good at NC with OM we wouldn't be in this place again)

So even though she has finally destroyed all the love I've had for her.....

I STILL MISS HER SOMETIMES....

Even though she's the most selfish human being on the planet...even with grandsons...daughter...son...mother....sisters.....nieces...nephews....dogs.... cats and even FISH (it's pretty hard to be selfish to a fish... but she can do it!!)

I STILL MISS HER SOMETIMES....

Even though she is so bad that whenever her mouth moves all that comes out is lies.....LIES LIES AND MORE LIES... (unless she's spewing venom about me....)

I STILL MISS HER SOMETIMES.....
[color:"red"]
Even though I spent EVERY DROP OF ENERGY HUMANLY POSSIBLE HERE ON MB TRYING TO GET OUR MARRIAGE PAST THE FIRST AFFAIR

AND WOULDN'T HAVE THE STRENGTH TO PICK OUT A GOOD MOVIE FOR US TO SEE IF THAT WOULD REPAIR OUR MARRIAGE FOREVER...... [/color]

I STILL MISS HER SOMETIMES....

Even though if she called tomorrow and begged me to try again I'd RUN the other way.....KNOWING I CAN NEVER EVER TRUST A WORD SHE SAYS EVER AGAIN....

I STILL MISS HER SOMETIMES....

Sure there are a lot of things I REALLY REALLY DO NOT MISS...like the LIES...and the ANGER....AND THE NASTY SIDE...
.....BUT........

I miss the woman I married....(or thought I married)

I miss the way she smells...


I miss the woman that I have a 20 year history with (a lot of good memories even though she can't remember any now)

I miss the Marriage we COULD have had....SHOULD HAVE had with all the tools I learned here.....

I miss being Nana & Papa with her....

I miss the great story for God of our divorce and
re-marriage that was great for 3 years in spite of infidelity..


Does this EVER GO AWAY... I mean do I still love her or am I just stupid and like abuse? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I really can't figure what I'm feeling....

Please take the time to give me your thoughts...

THANKS FRANK

Hey PH,

You miss who you THOUGHT she was, not who she REALLY is...

I could look back on ONLY the "good" times and I might miss her. However, the WHOLE picture, aka REALITY, doesn't allow me to indulge in selective memory.

Our wives REPEATEDLY spread their legs and GAVE to other men, what was only meant for us...KNOWING full well that you and I did NOT approve of such conduct. I don't mean to be graphic, but their callous and selfish disregard for us has to be faced.

I really do understand what you are going through...I did go through it myself.

YOu are thinking about the woman you THOUGHT you married...that woman does not exist.

For example, my STBXW is someone, had I REALLY known her, I would have avoided at all costs...she is not someone I would care to be associated with at all.

Once the rose colored glasses come off and you REALLY "SEE" her, you won't miss her at all...

Hope this helps,

WNB

Is it her you miss? I know I miss things that I associate with my H but I don't think are really about him. I miss doing things with someone else and he just happened to be the person I did them with. But I don't really know if it is HIM I miss, or rather I miss having someone to do things with.

It's hard to separate the things we miss from the person we associate with those things. In psychology terms, it's called classical conditioning. We come to associate things together because they have occurred together so many times. Classical conditioning is pretty powerful!

See if you can separate the things you miss from the person you associate them with. Maybe this will help you sort it out.

WNB,
Yeah,,, that was a nice little grapic you put in my head thanks.... I don't think there is much sex....she's in it for the money the OM is 67 years old.... (looks 75 years old) but.... when there is... Ahhhhh I have to delete that photo from my head......this is gross....she is crazy....

Deja Vu
That's what I'm trying to sort out... if it's a habit or a feeling....
I mean... she used to be EVERYTHING...really.... I used to say if I built a W from the ground up for ME.... I woulnd't have done as good a job as God did....

But.... using your "conditioning" idea,... I guess she was always too needy for me.....and I was always trying to be the "White Knight" that would ride in and dry her tears...
Let's just say I went through a LOT of White horses... (do you have ANY idea how hard it is to find a good white horse?? and the laundry...all those white clothes.)... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
I neglected a lot of other things in the process... me especially.....

Well thanks for the input... keep it coming guys.... THANKS FRANK

Just tell yourself "that is NOT the woman I married" whenver those "nicer" memories come to the forefront...

Deja hit the nail on the head...we all get "conditioned" to think wonderful thoughts about our spouses to a point it becomes reflexive...

You just need to de-train that particular reflex and it will abate eventually...

Good luck,

WNB

Please Help...

I am just like you. (Read my sig, I have been down this road too many times). But I miss her soooo much and despite her "foggy" version of our marraige, I know I was a wonderful husband... When I think of all the things I did for her I just cannot believe how she treated me. And on top of it, I still love her, and miss her and want to wake up next to her.

Something I tell myself though, if someone wanted me to set me up on a date with someone, that had multiple EA's, a PA, lied to her husband constantly, accused him of having affairs (which he never had) and she was divorced because her X could not take it anymore, would I go out on that date? No, I would not.

Picture your wife as someone else... someone with the same history she has done to you. Would you date her? I bet you would not.

I know this is hard - I am living it now and have been since May 13, 2004 (the start of the 3rd EA). She moved out a year ago and I still reach for her in the night. But, the woman I married is gone.

Something I am working very hard on is being kind to her w/o being a doormat. It makes me feel better than being angry with her all the time. I am working on setting up boundaries with her. I need to define what is best for me now, and not her. You may want to take that approach also - make her see what she is missing.

I am not living for her to come back anymore. I love her, I miss her, my heart aches for her, and I want her back. But how long would it take for her to do it again? Ask yourself the same thing.

PH -

I understand you, and your emotions, completely. It seems you have the same complex I suffer from - and I say this somewhat toungue-in-cheek - a martyrdom complex. I always gave, gave, gave to her, and completely denied my needs...to the point I began to resent her for not taking care of any of my EN's. She too, was a completely selfish person, and I, as well as most of her family, fed that "monster" inside of her. We catered to her every wish. Even now, her mother feeds the beast when she says, "...you know you can't tell STBXWW what to do..." when my MIL allows the OM to sleep in her house while visiting Houston.

I always wanted to make sure she had everything she wanted, and cared little for my own needs. Somehow, I thought this would prove my love for her. It doesn't, as the present state of my marriage shows.

A good book to read is Dr. Laura's "Ten Stupid Things Men do to Mess Up Their Lives" - in which she describes the white knight problem...if you haven't yet read it, you may want to pick it up.



TM

It's often about the money - my H left us for a wealthy woman who has bought him two expensive cars and provides him with free housing, etc., but has allowed the children to visit him only three times in the last year.

No, I don't think you ever stop missing the the person your spouse used to be - often it is not merely the person you thought they were, but the person they really used to be. My H has been gone for going on six years now, and I still miss him.

WELL... I DID IT.. I posted this....... I held it in.... fought it off.....but... I had to put it into the universe didn't I ..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Now..... after about 30 days of WS no contacting me... she dropped by unexpectedly today....... I KNEW I shouldn't let these feelings out....

Well of course she looked great (to me anyway) OF COURSE she was crying and told me that she was on a medical leave of absence from work.... wouldn't tell me WHY.....but eluded to that they may find something life threatening... OR... that she's going into the "safe" hospital again because she said I can't see the boys (our grandsons) till I "get back"?? Just pushing the buttons.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

She was her usual selfish self... just came get the paper work for her diamond... must be planning on selling it... I already hid those papers.... she never said that was what she wanted..blew smoke and got a jacket (she said she didn't want last time) and THEN said she needed papers for work....so she could dig for the ring papers.... then.... she casually asked if I saw them... I avoided the question WITH a question on if she was selling it.....and she of course got mad.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


Anyway....so BHINWI thanks very much for the input....

"Picture your wife as someone else... someone with the same history she has done to you. Would you date her? I bet you would not."

WOW... that was a GREAT help!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I mean I've already imagined what type of woman I will date after the D.... and I have a mental list of things to avoid.... my WS has ALL of these bad qualities and MORE x 10!! I guess I just want a miracle that God will never perform.... for my WS to be the person I guess I only "thought" I saw..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

"I am not living for her to come back anymore. I love her, I miss her, my heart aches for her, and I want her back. But how long would it take for her to do it again? Ask yourself the same thing. "

Neither am I...but the "my heart aches for her..." that hits home for me..... I think that's my whole problem.... I KNOW her life will go on without me....but I also know I really love/loved her unconditionally for 20 YEARS....and that won't happen again for her... and we have a history that she will never replace.... and the most important thing.... I AM THE ONLY PAPA THERE WILL EVER BE.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> she can call all the guys to come whatever she wants.... but.... there will always be only one PAPA and that my friends is ME....JUST ME......

And when Papa finally moves on and finds another person to share his life with... she will be on the outside looking in..... she will regret giving that part of her life...... for the life she is destined to live.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />(we are young grand parents too.... there were a lot of years left....)

BHINWI (what does that mean BTW?) also... I should know this but what does DD and DS mean? Deserted Daughter and Son? Thanks again BHINWI... you really helped...I will pray for you.... I hope God blesses you with your WS's return but as a TOTALLY reformed and healed person....



TMan
" I always gave, gave, gave to her, and completely denied my needs..."

YES ....I really feel that way too... I just wanted to be the one (she was married 2 times before me... 7 years with Father of her 2 children and 1 year to a former A partner) that finally made her "happy" These guys were monsters.... of course so am I now.... so I don't know what to believe...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

"I, as well as most of her family, fed that "monster" inside of her. We catered to her every wish. Even now, her mother feeds the beast "

Boy... that is dead on.... I was told this.... There are two types of people there are "Oak trees" that never sway very far. And Pine trees... and Pine trees sway back and forth and bend with the breeze.
Most everyone in my W's life (including me maybe the most) have been Pine trees... swaying back and forth with whatever she would do in her life because of her emotional problems.... except our Daughter she stands there firm and will not let her mother sway her with anger.... tears..... or any manipulating actions... ESPECIALLY excepting her OM......

I HAVE THIS BOOK!! ("Ten Stupid Things Men do to Mess Up Their Lives" ) I just never read it thanks for reminding me... I bought it just before she came home the last time.....hmmmm I guess God wanted me to read in now....

Did you ever see that movie "Interiors" by Woody Allen? It's about a woman like our WSs and their Husbands (like us) and the family you discribed.....the ending is pretty intense...... rent it you will find it interesting to say the least...
Tman thanks... I will be praying for your M as well... I hope whatever happens you are blessed. (

GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS AND THANKS FOR THE HELP..... FRANK

OOPS.. Sorry Nellie2
WOW... 6 years... sorry for your pain... I guess it's kind of like a death in the family with nothing to give to FINAL closure.... hard... sooo... hard... GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS.... FRANK

PH,
I finally got a chance to read your story here....

I am so sorry for the pain imposed on your by your WW. Your story gives me pause....kind of scares me a little...I don't really suppose my H will come back to our M, yet I am scared that if he did, we would still not make it and I would be in the same mess again just couple of years (or months - you never know) again...

I actually have been wondering recently if you can go on and be friends with your X... sounds like you still miss her ...I would really rather hear that you don't...I don't want to feel this way...

Unfortunately, I really love my H...I miss him now...and I have this feeling I will always miss him.....

There is no A in our sitch...so I cannot rely on thoughts of him hurting me in that way to get over it....he just chose to give up on us....really just married me for better or for better....

Sadly, our vows started with "will you...." and we responded with "I will...." and H would always bring up the fact that he did not like the "will you" that it was not definate....that it was something that he did not agree to do that day but agreed to do at SOME POINT in the future....I guess that day has not happened yet.....

Anyway, sorry about my rambeling along...I am afraid I don't have anything incoreging to say to you....sadly, I will probably find my way over to this board in the next few months...

Best,
Daisy

My 47 yr. old xWS had an affair with a 21 yr old OW resulting in an OC. It's been three years post divorce.....one of them attempting reconciliation...and I still miss him. And I HATE it that I still miss him!

It doesn't help that he would contact me and tell me how much he loved me...how immature and self-centered the OW is...but he needs to be there for the OC....etc....etc...etc... He will always love me.....I didn't do anything wrong in our marriage.......

I do believe that who he was when with me was genuine for a number of years. You see, he was a recovering addict/alcoholic, and I had been with him before he got into recovery. I knew a "good" man was in there, but would never come out if the drinking continued. When he got into recovery that "good" man showed up! He was a delight! We had our problems, but who doesn't?

So, I had the experience in the past of seeing my xWS turn himself around and get back on track as a decent, trustworthy, human being. I kept hoping that man would "recover" from his affair and come back. (Actually, for awhile I thought he had relapsed and started drinking again. All the behaviors were similar when he was having his affair.)

This was a second marriage for me. But, this was the first man who ever helped me feel pretty and desireable. This was the first man that I was very physically attracted to that was attracted to me. He was my friend, my lover, and my spouse. He helped me feel special just by the little things he'd do or say. And I loved making him feel that way, too. I still find myself noticing things in a store when I'm shopping, or music concerts coming up and thinking, "Oh...xWS would like this!". Ouch!

I, too, try and remind myself that if someone presented my xWS as a dating prospect as he is now, I'd run the other way! FAST! But, I find it harder when there has been so many good memories to balance it out some.

Yes, I get sickened and furious whenever I think about what all went on with my xWS and the OW. What a fool I had been for trusting him so long. What a liar he was. What an ego blow it was for him to chose a 21 year old, something I could never be again. (Although he claims her age had nothing to do with it! She just happens to be the same age as his oldest child!) How much I loved and did for him while this OW doesn't do crap...doesn't work....doesn't watch the OC much... and he jumps for her!

I think about how after we had divorced he was injured severely in a motorcycle accident and asked for me to come and see him in the hospital. I wasn't forced to. I made the choice to do it. He was there for a month. There was a time when I changed his sheets because they had dried blood left on them from the day before. The nurses just blew him off. Luckily I had training in how to change sheets with a patient in the bed! There was the night that I helped lift him out of his own projectile vomit until nurses could get into the room to help. I helped clean him up and put on clean clothing. The nurses thanked me..."Mrs.WS" for my assistance. The OW showed up with the OC to visit when it was convenient for her. And what hurts the most, is that I chose this!

I'm not proud of how I feel. I'm tired of hurting and being angry. I've done some dating, but nothing special. I also think at times that it's not fair to anyone to date them if I have remaining feelings for my X. Yet, I want to move on with my life. So I do, one step at a time some days, and several leaps on other days. And I still fall back on some days. And, yes, I've been in individual counseling all along, as well as in marriage counseling when we were together.

I'm not sharing this information because I'm proud of it, or to try and discourage anyone. In fact, it feels pretty embarassing to share it. I'm sharing because it's honestly how I feel, and maybe there are others out there that do, too.

Sometimes it seems like having a spouse die would be easier....at least there's a definate ending, and no hope for reconciliation, however remote.

HI Daisy,
Thanks for the kind words... I just read this because I;ve been trying to keep up with Dazedandconfused 's story on GII....

Anyway... I don't think I will be able to be a "friend" to my STBXW... too much pain there....and she's truly not a good person anymore... not one I would "choose" as a friend....
I pray for her... I hope God can save her and bring her to where I thought she was in spirit....

The LAST words I said to her as I walked her to her car the day we divorced the first time was "I wish you could see the person I SEE.. in you.."

I'm having a hard time seeing that person at the moment....

I hope you are OK.. Daisy... GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS FRANK

Please help, it hurts a lot. The comments and disrespect are what cause the most pain later. Try not to say things that would stir up conversations, but be confrontational when threatened. Going to counsellors helps because they teach me strategies. I am a nice person and didn't know how to act either..Negotiation is important in that some people constantly negotiate every conversation, remember hannibal lecter quid pro quo? He said you give me something, I give you something and we go from there. That's the level of trust you have right now which is separate from love.

Learning how to negotiate isn't something in marriagebuilders, not really-that is you are not going to be taught how to look out for number one easily because you are not selfish but you can learn one thing.

Everytime you talk to your ex, be prepared to negotiate and start with these words, let's make a deal-to level the playing field and let her know you are starting negotiations. Then ask her to be cool, ask her repeatedly, are we cool? when you sense one of you becoming emotional. Keep negotiating for what you want, never talk to her unless there is something involved that is important to you-do not have time for her selfish needs.

It's time consuming and draining to negotiate every conversation but the secret is to be prepared. That's the only way to deal with selfish people, and stay cool, don't show disrespect in your voice even if you want to. If you must express your anger express how much you can't trust her and shouldn't trust her BUT express that you are doing your best despite you complete lack of trust in her.

That will seem logical and put your emotions in a safe place where she can't play with them. IF she does, she won't get what she wants, always find out what she wants, do NOT let her stop by without calling first, refuse entry by telling her you do not trust her and that has to come with time.

It's very hard not to be disrespectful and angry, but you have to do it.

Another secret is don't spend time with the opposite sex right now, spend time with other men at social clubs and doing fun but soothing things. Work, travel, but don't try and socialize with women because the smells, clothing, it just hurts too much.
Same here with men!

Good Luck,
and remember your strategies.
If necessary ask someone to move in with you for a short time, preferably male.

Nat

PH,

You said
Has it occured to you that perhaps she is an instrument of God and the goal is to change YOU. He will deal with her I am sure, but what about you? What does it say that you have deluded yourself for so long KNOWING what you always knew about your W? I think it is time you looked at this from the perspective of what you have learned about yourself, what you have learned about people, and what you have learned about your internal goals and needs.

It is unlikely that you were ready to meet the type of woman, you need to meet before all of this. It is unlikely that you would have appreciated a loving, kind, sharing, dedicated spouse as you will NOW. It is unlikely that you would have been able to see the true value of a spouse like you can now.

PH, it is time. It is time to move on and take your hard won knowledge with you. You have learned, you have grown, you have given, and you have struggled. You miss the purpose if you don't see the gain from all that you have been through. Your exW or soon to be exW has taught you all she can. She has given you all she can give. Time to use what you have learned and gained to take the next step in your life. If you do not, if you continue to pine for what was NOT, you will have failed because you did not learn. I think you have learned...use that knowledge to do the things you can now do with the knowledge you now have.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL