I've read a lot of things on here about the fog, but I think I'm a slow learner. The choice for my H seems clear -- he loves her, he doesn't love me. He has great sex with her, he doesn't with me. She represents a new and exciting future, I represent same old responsibilities, kids, etc.

In order for him to repudiate her, he would have to do two very difficult things -- 1) devastate and break up with someone who loves him, someone he has made a commitment and promises to; and 2) trust that we can not only rebuild a marriage but make it better than it was before. He has said he doesn't *want* to work on the marriage, he wants a future with her. She is in the middle of a divorce from her H to be with mine. He has said he wants a divorce from me. If he were to break up with her at this point, it would destroy her.

I want to have faith and hope, but from a rational perspective, I'm not sure what incents him to come back. He's not religious, he doesn't fear God's wrath or anything, he's full of studies about how these lost-love relationships work out, he's already said he's willing to give up his kids. I think I can and will Plan A until the cows come home (I say now...), but is my being pleasant and independent enough to make a difference??

I'll be curious to see what responses you get Hoopsie, as my WW is in the same place as your husband. Yes the love ,sex and everything else is way better and shes happy, but I can't believe she was that unhappy for 18yrs. Personally I do not see her waking up from the fog anytime soon, so I went to Plan B. My wife is saying the same tings as your husband.

Reality is usually the most effective thing to break up an affair and lift the fog. Exposure is ruinous to affairs as they can only survive under the veil of secrecy.

ARe you in Plan A? Have you exposed the affair?

hoopsie...

your story breaks my heart.......
for your husband is really really acting like a CAD...

so he is...
so WHAT THEN...

enough about him...

lets try to get you focused...

1. the fact that you in verbage have a WS that says he is willing to give up his own children for a women while will bring great pain and chaos to your doorstop....is also the telltale sign of the deep soul alterving destructive path he is on.....

and as long as he continues on down the path of abandoning children...he will know not one moment of true inner joy nor peace...and while I am not asking you to rejoice in that thought...I am telling you that nothing he touches will turn out right...till he does right.......by his own children....

you need to get yourself in to counseling in to counseling perhaps even family counseling because this man is a direct threat to you and your childrens well being and you are going to need great tools and support in NOT enabling him nor taking responsiblity for his CHOICES...but you will be spending a lot time picking up the pieces of destruction in your kids.....and you will need help with that....

I have little interest in how out of control you have been in the past for his disclosure of the affair and insane plan to abandon everyone in the name of his fals pursuit of happiness.....the fact that he is still breathing ...should make him grateful... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

BUT
you can and perhaps should apologize for actions that you feel bad about for yourself...

as in...
jerkhead....(don't call him that...insert his name...) I just wanted to say that I apoligize for the time I _____or when I said ________ and that it was not a kind thing for me to say or do....

and then be done with that...

the thing is all your ranting and raving played right in to his hands...as he used it against you to solidify not you not being the OW>...

so time to stop handing him a loaded weapon and time to diffuse his divergences on your behavior vs the real conseqences of his actions.......

have you read and do you understand plan A...

NO more relationship talk.....
no more...

I think you need to get a good grasp on plan A..BUT I also think you need to throw some monkey wrenches in to this mans game...

subtle movements and actions on your part....that are 1000000000% blameless....but break you out of the cycle of you always being and behaving exactly as he expects...
how old are the children
does he watch them at all so you can go out....cause I think you need to get him to watch the kids...and you need some time out.....

can you call the harleys for a consultation....

has he filed
do you have legal counsel...
is he planning on moving out of state

where is he staying now
and
is the affair exposed to family..

ARK

I'm beginning to think it never does.

ark, thanks so much for your thoughtful post. I've read and think I understand plan A -- do a 180 on behaviors that have driven him away, work on myself, show him that we are strong and happy without him, be pleasant and caring within the constraints that he does not live here now, be a home and a person that he would like to come home to, yes?

He has talked to lawyer a couple of times over the last few weeks. He told me that he told his lawyer that I wouldn't believe he was going through with it until the papers landed on my doorstep. So far, nothing has landed on my doorstep this week <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, but I'm terrified that he'll hand something to me this weekend when he comes to see the kids. I had one consultation with an atty, who basically went over what I could expect for child support, division of assets, etc.

We moved to this state only a year ago for his job. I have no job, no family, and no real friends here. If we divorce, I told him I would need to move to my hometown where I have family support. He sighed and said he wished I wouldn't do that, but that he wouldn't stop me. I said "you realize then that you'll rarely see the children???" and he said yes, he was willing to do that. He paints it to himself as him not giving them up as much as my taking them. I am taking them, however, because I feel I have little choice.

He's living in a motel down the street, and talking to the OW all the time. She flew up last weekend. If we divorce and I leave the state, he has said probably leave the state (and his career) to move to her hometown and build a life with her.

I just don't know what to do. I can do plan A for awhile, but I just feel like I'm on a speeding train about to crash into a brick wall. He has refused counseling, refused to not contact her for a few months, refused to try with me. He says he feels guilty about breaking his vows, but not guilty about pursuing a chance for glorious personal happpiness, about not "settling" for less than an ideal relationship. Unrealistic? Maybe. Fog? Maybe. But it's hard to fight a fog.

He says he knows he will have regrets either way, but he cannot regret not going for it with her. But, again, I don't know how much of that is real and how much of it was due to my pushing. The A has been going on since February. I'm just distraught (and I plan to call the Harleys -- are they helpful on the phone?)

And I guess I'm unclear how exposing the affair helps. I've told my family, told his family, told a few of our friends. Telling his work would be bizarrely unprofessional and accomplish nothing.

My family supports me, of course, and tells me they will help however I need. His family is disappointed and shocked at him, but also will support their son. They would certainly not disown him, any more than I would disown a child who did something that shocked and disappointed me. Our friends who know are cautious -- they love me and love him and are puzzled. One of his best friends told him he doesn't understand how he can give up his children, but doesn't want to be judgemental.

None of those exposures altered his feelings at all. If anything, they allowed him to explain and justify himself to the people who care about him. How does exposure supposed to work??

Hoopsie...

your husband may believe what he says about pursueing happiness.....with the OW..but there is the hugest chasm of seperating in your head the fantasy of being the OW...over the real true reality...........

How far away does the OW live from you...and if you were'nt planning on moving back home if he leaves....would he still be the one moving away then.....

I am going bump up a plan a tips posts...

but I think that your husband has been happily focused soley on his happiness only and hasnt' seen much reality of what this really means...

I think he needs a taste of it....

I think you need to get your house in order...when he comes over...really make it like a home...looking good ..no signs of chaos....

also I think you should cook something fabulous that smells great...something he likes...but not his favorite meal...just something that fills the house...with good memories....

but I also think that while he is there you need a friend from home to call you on your cell if you have one....and you need to ACT like it is someone you are really really happy to hear from....and not real interested in disclosing to your husband to whom you are talking....

again I question my own advice...is this just game playing...on one hand without doubt it is...and so you have the right to decide if it is something you want to do...

but again I come back to if it was me...and my husband was soley focused only on his new life with his new woman...then I would do this.....I would present him with the reality that from this moment on he does not have total access to your life and your universe....that his secret worlds were his....and you are now finding yours....

this is NOT to say I am telling you to involve someone real person in to your world

nor am I saying to admit to anything...NOR overtly lie...but to create the illusion...

so he's at your house...
your phone rings

you jump up and have converstation about glad you called...

that was fun talking the other night

hope you weren't too tired the next day

yeah he is

yup
yup
yup...

I know that's what I think

I told you...just like I thought he would...

laugh laugh laugh....

yeah I have been thinking about that..
yeah I would like to do that...

he can watch them...heck Lord knows I havent gotten to go out anywhere....

this weekend...

yep..

call me later....
soon I think....

do you see it hoopsie....have your best friend call from your old town...and work the illusion....
in the end you do remain innocent....for you did and said nothing wrong...but the seed is planted...........

and when he asks who and where you are going...and any question like that.... just say...oh no-one really and be happy and then hand him some dates you need him to come over and watch the kids...............

be upbeat....
be pleasant...

you have played this perfectly for him so far...the wounded wife...which you are ranting and raving..because what he is doing hurts bad.............
time to claim yourself back.....

time to make some demands on him
for him to watch the kids....

and when he asks where are you going..

say ooh just out with some people I met and somethings we might do....friends of a friend...etc..

time for him to have the kids and have to face him with his actions without you there...buffering.....

this is a little bit of rebel marriagebuilding tips...but in your case where he is planning such abandonement....to me he is really really self focused...and needs to broaden his visual field

the good news is that their affair is sooooooooooo based on fantasy...
this belief you can have two people unhealthily destroy families and then immediately attempt to join themselves together....is insane...it will self implode.........

does she have children she is abandoning......

do you know her..
can you contact her husband....

how old are your kids...all boys...??


what he is teaching children about being a father and man...gut wrenching......

ark

Yes, I was going to have the house all spotless and cozy and cheery. We have three girls under 5, so it's usually in a state of barely-controlled chaos.

He's going to ask if he can see the kids Saturday. I'm going to say no, that we have plans, but he can come over Sunday. And I'm not going to tell him where I'm going.

It's hard, though, because for the last 10 years we've moved all over the country (and overseas) for his career. We've never really settled anywhere very long, so it's not like I have some robust, bustling social life without him like a lot of people on here seem to. I'm pretty introverted and bookish. He knows I don't have any friends he doesn't know about. If I head out and don't tell him where I'm going, he'll assume I'm going to the gym or the library or a movie. Which I would. Maybe if I come home all touseled and with my bra hanging out, it might pique his interest; otherwise, he'd just shrug and say "glad you had a good time, I'm off to call OW."

I really appreciate all your advice! Thank you so much.

Oh, and I did ask him if I stayed in the area, would he commit to staying here too? He said no, he would probably still move across the country to her hometown at some point.

Hoopsie,

I don't have advice to give you, others are better at it, but I do want to offer my support in your efforts to deal with this situation. I was in it not so long ago.

I can certainly confirm that what your WS is saying, many of us have heard it all before, and that your WS is definitely in what we call around "fogland".

I don't think there is an easy answer to your question: much may depend on the issues involved.

What I have learned so far, is rather what will definitely NOT help lift the fog:

a) Continued contact with OW (which a BS does not control)

b) BS enabling affair (which BS can control), by among other things:

- not exposing A, keeping A in fantasyland and not facing reality (which can help lift the fog sometimes)

- by lovebusting: being disrespectful, judging and having angry outbursts (and making it not very pleasant to come home to) and therefore 'justify' WS wanting/choosing to be with OW, and keeping A going

There is a lot of information here that will help: MBers replies and reading other threads.

I am glad you have come to this Board for support and information.

Being part of this Board has certainly helped me to deal with what I consider to be so far the most difficult challenge in my life.

If you are in PLAN A, don't forget to give yourself a timeframe, because if WH doesn't come around, for your own sanity, you will need to go to PLAN B.

What I can suggest to you, if you can, is to avoid what I consider now to have been a very big mistake on my part, which caused me a lot of pain and made me very ineffective, and that is: do not try to make sense out of what WH says - it will change often enough to drive you crazy.

Good luck.

hoopsie-
Were rowing the same boat. My WW is in the very same sitch.
Study all you can about MB principles and how to use them. If you have $185 to spend call marriage builder "Steve Harley". Record every word he says to you. Study about how to expose and when and where. Be very careful when dealing with family members. You could build a hurdle to over come later. Mrs. W has very good ideas about exposure.
Good luck and god bless you.

BTW- Make it clear to everyone on here when the affair started, when you found out, when you start Plan A. This is important. Many will suggest Plan B write off the get go. I believe you must finish a plan A for B to work. IMO. I'm not an expert, so study and read and listen to the experts.

My heart sunk to the floor when you said the you have THREE lovely daughters all under the age of FIVE!!!

Any woman that gets inbetween a man and his small so very dependant women and attempts to use words like love and soul mates...makes my skin crawl...it is as I say...hot for Hitler..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

AND
any man who can look at his THREE daughters and think that he will not have great effect on their ability to healthy relationships with him as pursues his happiness is just as sick.........

hoopsie I read your musings about being bookish and being introverted...and I implore you to use this time of limbo to begin to stretch your wings.....
and feel your way to independance...growing confident in your small accomplishments...

this will serve you well for the upcoming battle that is looming....

there is the possibility that your husband will carry this along....even to the point of serving you and stuff....

and there is the possibility that he will drag you far enough that you won't want anything to with him...

you gotta prepare for the worst and the best..

there is also a great chance that he will see the fultile quest he is on...he himself is constructing a relationship that is on such shifting sands of such huge proportion that while he "imagines" it will be hard...he does not see that it will be impossible....for the truth is...even within their warped definition of love...love is NOT enough...

again any man that abandons his three DAUGHTERS for another woman...will never know true peace in his soul...

pitiful beside all the other vile emotions it extoles...and he will find no safe harbor from himself with her...because she is a mirror image of his own vileness....accepting a man who abandons daughters and attempting to elevate him to an honorable person....

sick it is...
but they may take this a long...

so while you may be bookish and introverted...your daughters are going to need a mom who is strong and independant....

you need to get yourself in to counseling
you need to get legal counsel that explains and indentifies your rights to keep your husband from exposing these girls to dads girlfriend...for their confusion will begin soon enough....

you NEED to find a support group...

you may consider looking church wise for parents without partners.........

you should DEFINITELY go to local book stores and inquire about book clubs, wine tasting, cooking classes etc...

you need to broaden you support base...
you need a distraction
and you need to find some people to laugh with........

you you you you you....
time to focus on you........

I am serious about you needing to get your husbands attention as well....

and answer me this...
does this man truly say to you........

he'd just shrug and say "glad you had a good time, I'm off to call OW."

ARK

Yeah, this got me...it was easy for him to make it sound like you are tearing the girls form him...but in reality, he was looking to blame you for something he was already going to do.

How to burn away the fog? Sunlight!!

Does the OW have a SO? What do you know of her? I know, not much time with those three kiddos around.

I would suggest a stronger set of visitation times, so you can have some weekend's away...

There was a poster on here a couple of years ago that worked a very successful 180. When it was WH's turn to have the kid's for the weekend, she made sure to call and doublecheck about the time, or asked him to come a little early...then when he showed up, be dressed and made up, and throw your overnight bag in the back of the car and take off about the same time, never mind you were visiting family or just going to hang out at the airport for an hour (just in case he folowed)... When he came over during the week she made sure a phone call came...male (usually a brother/uncle/etc.) and was VERY happy and flirtatious over the phone...

She was nonchalant, and sometimes changed the visitation times because she "had plans". She gave every indication she had moved on with her life. She moved around the furniture, redecorated/repainted rooms. Made decisions about a new car/ selling items... I know, these things can't necessarily be done in the midst of a separation...but be creative.

Any other ideas?

Hoopsie,

Ark could not have expressed better what so many of us feel reading your situation. She is giving you good advice.

Me, you have my total support...and remember you are not alone, and are now part of what I refer to as the MB family. Knowing this has helped me at times.

Don't hesitate to come here anytime you need to. Many of us have been where you are. We understand. Come here for venting, hope, advice, hugs, listening....anything.

You and your lovely three daughters deserve the best.

Please consider the advice offered... at least just try it out.

This is going to be a time in your life where you have no choice but to be strong, for yourself and for your children because you are worth it.

Take care.

These are virtual hugs:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hoopsie}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Hoopsie

I feel your pain, my situation is the same as yours, although I have 1 daughter who was 1 at the time of DDay. I am from New Zealand but currently living in London with no family around me. My WBF doesn't seem to care that he is giving up his relationship with his DD. DD and I will be returning to New Zealand sometime next year. I don't think the reality of his decision to leave and live with OW will really hit him until we actually leave the country and are gone.

I did all the wrong things, LB all the time, and tried to make sense of things.

So my advice to you, get strong, stay strong, get a plan and stick to it, build a network of people around you that you can rely on. I was like you, a private person, so have had to build a network of support, it took me some time to get where I am now. I am working, DD is in Daycare (she loves it), I am now doing a much better Plan A, although there is still room for improvement. I am now sleeping through the night, am eating much better and making the effort to get out and meet up with friends.

I now don't have to rely on WBF for any care of DD, he has been reluctant anyway. I get a babysitter in once a fortnight or once a month and have a few hours out with friends.

Read as much as you can on this site, this site and it's members have some much to offer, but I was too set on throwing myself pity parties for it to sink in until recently. It has taken me a long time to realise that I have control too, this is a time to focus on me and to become the happy fun loving person I was before.

Take care and keep posting

Yes, they're beautiful, including a toddling 13-month-old who is the spitting image of her father! I took your advice -- I'm taking a rock climbing class on Sunday morning at a big indoor climbing gym.

I did tell H what I was doing when he called to confirm weekend plans; it seemed like it would be belligerent or coy to make it some big secret. He said, "Oh, good for you, that sounds like fun." But I don't particularly think he's thinking "gee, I'm intrigued by this new Plan A-ing wife," I think he's thinking "oh, good, she's over her hysteria and is moving on and developing new interests. That will serve her well after the divorce!"

Like most people on here, I'm not going to pretend that we had an idyllic marriage or that I'm not also to blame for conditions that led to the affair. I did say over and over to him afterwards that I was willing to work, willing to change, willing to do anything to give our daughters what they deserve -- an intact, loving family. He simply said it was too late. It takes two to work on a marriage. He's moved on. He loves another woman.

Is it too late? I don't know. Papers haven't shown up. If anyone here is a baseball fan, I can tell you that the city of Boston thought it was too late last year when the Red Sox were down three games to the Yankees in the playoffs. But they fought back in four epic games that stunned two cities ... and won. I'm a big Red Sox fan now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He made little comments during our conversation, like "we'll have to paint before we get ready to sell the house" and when I mentioned buying our eldest a winter coat he said, "oh, she probably won't need that after you move." But I suppose many of the success stories here heard things like that at one time also.

I'm gonna keep hanging on. Have the house welcoming. Maybe pick him up a book at the bookstore. Thank him for whatever he does here Sunday. Again, I appreciate everyone's advice and help!