SC, How much of a drinker is your H?

SC:

I agree with MM that your vent was probably a good thing. A couple of things that I want to you really know and understand. I believe that when I say these, I speak not only for the myself but the concensus of MB followers:

1) You and your husband have a tremendous chance of success in your marriage based on what you have written and the progress that you both have made.

2) We do not want to or enjoy "beating up" on you or anyone else here. Through each of our own experiences, we have shared the sucesses and mistakes that we have made in our own recovery. Sometimes, it is necessary for someone to slap us around a little to really get the points to sink in. In my personal situation, there was a time about a month into recovery that I had a similar "vent post" about an issue that I just couldn't work through at that time. I felt perfectly justified in how I felt. I posted probably more than anything for others to tell me that I was doing the right thing. Some did. However, Mortarman put the issue in the true light. What I was doing and thinking at that time was counterproductive to the process and to my personal healing. He didn't sugarcoat this, just laid it out and let me see the "truth". For that I am eternally grateful to him. But when I first read his post, I felt like that he was attacking me...and I was the BS. I thought that was unfair. However, after several days of reflection I realized that he was exactly right. I followed his advice and my life was forever changed.

One of the reasons that I have taken so much interest in your particular sitch is that there are so many simlarities between your sitch and ours. As I said many posts ago, many of the things that you have said in your posts could have probably come directly out of my FWW's mouth at one point in her life.

I don't know if you really loved your husband when you first got married or not. Really it doesn't matter. And there is no doubt that you have outlined all the reasons why that your M created an environment that allowed the A to happen in the first place. As M's encounter difficulty often one or both of the partners withdraw from the other. As that withdrawal manifests, it is likely that both partners feel like they are being neglected by the spouse. This starts the dangerous rationalization process that allows A and many other destructive behaviors to begin to eat away at the marriage bond. For some, myself included this meant starting to do activities that my wife wasn't involved in (definately not an MB principle). I became cold, inattentive, distant, interested in anything that didn't require that I give my wife the attention that she needed and deserved (sound familiar???). As my wife withdrew, she also started to find ways to fulfill her needs outside of our relationship. Unfortunatly, that path down the slippery slope resulted in an A for her. Were we both responsible for the relationship deterioating??? Absolutely, and we have both taken our share of that responsibility. Did my actions of inattentiveness, reclusiveness, anger outbursts, lack of consideration and respect justify the choice that my W made to seek comfort with another man??? In no way did that justify her actions. She was justified to want to be happy, she was justified in trying to find ways that our marriage could make her happier, and she was even justified in leaving the marriage if there was no way for her to find that happiness. However, she chose an alternative of duplicity (having cake and eating too) that is never acceptable but is forgivable.

Now the important part. We are both completely fulfilled and happy in our marriage now and it gets better every single day. But our marriage is between two people who are radically different than the two that got married 18 years ago and the couple that contributed the the cancerous marriage environment that led up the the affair and the couple that just "managed" through a marriage for more than 10 years from the AE to D-Day. We both fell in love with each other during our recovery process. And that love gets stronger and deeper every single day. Including the days that are not so good for one of us.

I have said to you that one of the things that I continue to struggle with is knowing what was true about our 18 year marriage. Did my W love me when we got married??? She thinks she did (and I believe her) but the love that she has for me today is drastically different and more intimate than any feelings that she had for me when we were newlyweds. Did she love me but not in love with me during the time that her A was going on??? My personal feeling is that the answer to this is that she didn't love me and she sure wasn't in love with me during that time. She was having an A, if she felt love for me during that time it would have been impossible to departmentalize those lives. If I am honest with myself I probably had the same feelings. Problem is that we have never had a crash course of how to know if we are in love or out of love. Society has created an environment that gives us unrealistic expectations of what love, marriage, committment really are. Our minds are molded to think that our married lives will not only be stress free but continue to have the romantic pursuits, lust, etc with each other until death do us part. Problem is that the new (read passion, infactuation, lust) of the marriage wears off and then kids come along and bills to pay, and all the other realities of life and we think that we can't be in love because it is not like in the movies. So the entitlement attitude creeps into our M and whamo...one is totally involved in sports, or shopping, or whatever and the other is out seeking that "movie like" love in someone elses arms. This is why you are here. It was not justified or rational but it is reality. It happened and you can't take it back. But you both have the opportunity to grow from this experience and possibly realize the intimacy that is the really true love.

I know that I am getting pretty long winded, but this is a subject that I feel passionately about. Your real issue continues to be whether you love your husband enough to a) get the personal fulfillment out of your marriage that you need and deserve and b) whether you are worthy to even get that kind of love from him. First off, forget about the husband that you married...by your own admission he is a completely different person now..attentive, a good parent, etc. If he is committed to stay this type of person and more importantly is he will continue to grow in ways that make you happy, you will not only love him but enjoy a true intimacy that many of us never dreamed existed between M partners. You have to do you part as well to make him feel the same way but if successful, it will not only be natural for both of your primary instincts to fulfill the needs of your spouse but it will allow you to be proud of yourself and your husband and the people that you have become. And don't forget about the impact that this type of loving relationship will have on your kids long term.

As far as part b, I believe as I have said before that often the lack of feeling loved is the combination of one partner not truly knowing how to show their love and the other partner having some insecurities that make them question whether they can be loved by anyone. This situation is ripe for an A. The WS needs the attention and affirmation that the OP can give them. But they ultimately find that the A is even more empty than the M they were trying to escape. So the A ends and they feel even more unworthy which has been compounded by their guilt of infidelity. Here is how to approach that conflict. By your actions you have betrayed your husband. But he is willing to at least work towards acceptance, foregiveness and reconciliation. If he still believes that you are worthy of the effort even after what has happened and thinks so highly of you to make significant efforts to change himself, shouldn't it be the logical step for you to see that indeed you are worthy (at least in his eyes) of true love and allow yourself to be loved and in turn to love, change and cherish his love?


Sorry for the long post. We are on your side, not against you. You are making much more progress than either of you really know at this point.

NT

One more thing SC.. have you ever thought why your posts gets so many more replies than many others on this board???

IMHO, two reasons...first and foremost, you took the steps to listen to what we had to say and made the right moves to start the reconciliation process.. Big steps that you should be proud of. Secondly, everyone sees that your husband and you have serious hope of recovery. If any of us can help make that process successful, then we are not just wasting our time on these boards.

NT

I totally agree that the feelings of a BS are physically debilating, as if someone died. Well.. after an A, something did die. Trust and comittment, but I know it can be restored.. An A is a wake up call for everyone involved. Sad but true... We learn from mistakes and people will get hurt.. Did anyone think marriage just happened? Well.. I did.. and boy was I wrong...

While my W, a SAHM, didn't have your typical A, she also suffers from severe depression and has had several breakdowns over our 10+ year marriage. The last breakdown was prefaced with her telling me of an "incident" that occured between her and an old friend (not sure what they were in the past) while we we heading to another city for our anniv. I got held back a day and she went out without me and she met up with the OM for lunch and dinner... and GUESS WHAT HAPPENED!? Boy, were we both grossly naive. How could that not have happened after she had had 10+ years of unresolved emotions for this person? This was an EA more than a PA but during that trip, it became a PA..just one incident and you would not believe how our lives have changed.

Anyway, on the day she told me of the A (9 months later), she suffered severe paranoia (it had been brewing for months) and I took her to hosp. only to leave the same day with her being somewhat ok. Her MD gave her ADs, then took herself off (BAD MOVE) and then, while I'm still trying to recover from the A, she has another very serious breakdown that lands her in a psych clinic for 4 days. Are you feeling my pain yet? 4 days in the hosp., I've got (3) kids and an executive-level position to maintain and all for what? The A or her depression?? Someone please tell me which it is! PLEASE!

She gets out and is now in therapy and on meds (probably for life) and things were fine for a few weeks and this week she's not sleeping and waking up at 2-3am each night, something that used to occur quite often but hasn't since she got out of the hosp. Following a therapy session, she calls me crying and tells me she's thinking about the OM and that regardless of what they were, she loved him and they were friends... and I'm like.. ok.. but now what? If you want to be with him, go be with him. WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY??

Now, here are my questions that I so desperately need answers to. We start couple therapy in two weeks and hopefully, this will all be worked through but I see that I can hit the masses with this forum. I'm hoping there are some succcess stories out there that deal with Depression and A and EA and PA..

1) Does she get a pass for the A, be it a one time PA plus a EA of longing for the entire marriage, all because she has probably been depressed her entire life and had a really messed up childhood? She says she loves me and doesn't see a life without man but should I stand for her keeping the OM in her heart? Is this part of her deluision/depression or is it her heart? Who knows? Does she? Does anyone actually ever have someone's heart 100%? Am I asking for too much?

2) I'm not sure if my recent needs for affection were always there but I feel as if we're not affectionate except for sex, which ironically, both of us would say was always good up until recently. Could be the meds or she still harbors some guilt over the whole thing, but she can't reach orgasm, something she did 100% of the time for over 10 years. Go figure.. Punishing herself? She thinks God is.. .

3) After all this, she still wrestles with lost hopes, lost dreams and with this "connection" to the OM. Mind you she tells me that they NEVER actually had sex (he's impotent or something) and that the A/incident was oral (him to her). Not that the details matter, but sex is sex right? And cheating is cheating. She also tells me that she wanted it, to express herself, to feel good but never says how he felt about it? Does it matter? God, those words cut like a knife.. She wanted to express herself at the expense of a 12 year marriage and 3 small children? Is that absurd? Is that the Depression or the gross selfishness of an abused inner child. SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THAT IS??

4) Is all this simply a result of her carrying the guilt of the A AND the EA of 10+ years (not a true EA since they only started emailing and chatting a year prior to the PA) but I know for a fact that she had feelings unresolved for the entire marriage. A fact she doesn't deny. Is this guilt or depression or both?
I also know that she has been depressed for most of her life. We both know that now.

5) Should I stay married, if my need for affection is not met and if she continues to harbor feelings for this person, even if it may be delusional and part of her mental illness? Is that a cop out for what it really is? She loved him and he never loved her or it just didn't work out? Can I make her not feel something? Would our marriage not be a lie if I stayed, if only for the kids?

6) Will the kids suffer that much if we break nicely and they don't see anger and pain during the split ? God, they are all I feel for.. so innocent and so loving.. having to be witness to nervous breakdowns, arguments and shouting over infidelity.. and lack of affection.. they know something is wrong. Children FEEL things like animals feel a storm coming.. they are sensitve. I love them so much and they deserve so much more. I get so angry over that.

Anyway.. I know there's a lot here but I would greatly appreciate any advice from anyone that has suffered with something as complicated as this.
An A with Mental Illness plus EA, even if one-sided. S gets mad when I say the EA was/is a delusion and a fantasy and merely represents a symbol of something in her, unresolved. An avoidant that she can't have.. Co-dependent since he suppposedly also suffered abuse of sorts as a child. I don't care what it is. She's married and you can't have both! I can't live with that.

I want my wife, I want my children and I want my family.. Is that too much to ask for? I feel so angry and hopeless sometimes.. I cry out of the blue and started having panic attacks after 12 years of remission. My life is 100% fine outside of this. Friends, works, life, God.. it's all good.

Please SHARE if you have life experience. I know someone has or is going through something similar. In this society, how could they not. Hopefully, they read this board.

Thanks and God bless all of you for your strength and courage. We are all here seeking help and recover for ourselves, ur unions and probably for our children.. a NOBLE cause indeed....

Thank you.

SC,

Listen to Nottoday...he is absolutely correct. There is great promise in your marriage now. Many on these boards pray for what you and your husband have right now...a chance at a great marriage. Both of you are seeing pretty clearly right now...and have been shocked into reality. Both of you could have run when all of this came out...but you have both looked to each other and found to your amazement that the other really is interested in your marriage.

Just Learning put it great...and I would only add that as surprised as you are with your husband's changes as well as his reactions to your infidelity, he is also surprised at some of the things you have done (good and bad). So, you both have some learning to do about each other.

The key here is that you are both interested in learning about each other. That is a great start! Get Steve Harley or a pro-marriage counselor, get your husband on here if you can...and take this step-by-step. Have him read the books that have been suggested. Have him fill out the love buster and EN questionaires. Tell him that while you have hope that this is turning around, this isnt done successfully by amateurs. that you will need a plan and help with that plan, in order to head off problems and guide you to where it appears both of you now want to go.

One day at a time.

In His arms.

Ladysheep -- He used to have a couple beers or glasses of wine each weeknight, and probably six or seven each on Saturdays and Sundays. He has cut it way down - one or two here and there during the week, two or three on the weekend days.

Believer -- Yes the OM is totally out of the picture. If my husband wants to write an NC letter, I'm willing. But there will be no contact either way.

Mortarman -- I know you guys (and gals) aren't beating up on me. In fact, I've been quite touched by all your kindness. I just needed to get all that off my chest.

Now that I have, however, I also feel the need to restate that my husband barely resembles the guy I was married to six weeks ago. As I said, he comes on here to read what I've posted and see how you guys respond, so I hope it didn't make him feel bad to read that stuff. I know, as NT put it, he suffered a major kick in the crotch just a few days ago, and he doesn't need any more kicking from me or anyone else right now. Besides, he has already acknowleged all of that stuff and has made major changes. He's a very quick study. Much quicker than I. (His job is a lot like that, too. He has to assymilate (sp?) a lot of information in a sort period of time, boil it down accurately, and make quick decisions under pressure.) I could go on and on about all the changes he has made, and a few that we have made together to rebuild our marriage. Bottom line, I now see what he's really made of and I'm quite impressed.

Thanks also for separating out the issues/responsibilities for recovery regarding the affair versus the marriage. When you're in the middle of all this stuff, it's easy for it to get all jumbled up and feel even more overwhelming than it is. What you wrote helped to clarify things.

This morning, my husband told me he has come to terms with the A and just wants to move on and focus on us. I know it seems way too fast, even for him, and I'm prepared for more dips in the roller coaster (I reasured him of this as well, so that he wouldn't feel locked into his statement if and when he has another bad day or moment)... but I also said I'd follow his lead. I asked him if he'd be willing to fill out the EN questionaire this weekend to help me understand what I need to do, and he said he would.

Tonight... after we put the kids to bed... we're going to light some candles, put on some classical music, sit on the floor in front of the wood stove, and chow down on take-out Indian food....

-SC

This is a great start!

One note: the reason we say that you might want to get your husband here is that while workign on all of this, there are things you really cannot help him with. While I do not fully understand what it is like to be in the fog or be in an affair, I very much know what it is like to be a BH. Many times, he will have feelings he cannto explain, and you cannot help him with. He will need to know that he is not crazy, and that those feelings are normal. So, just as Dorry (who is a FWW) has helped me help WWs on here before because she has that unique perspective, your husband can be helped by most of us BHs on here.

Even if he wont sign on, suggest that he come and read some of the threads. I can even suggest soem of the better ones that can help him along.

The other quick thing is if you have the money, please call Steve Harley and set up some telephone sessions with him. I did that with my wife and I two years ago, and the plans and things he came up for us are still being used today. That is his forte...coming up with a plan!

Anyway, enjoy your evening with your husband.

In His arms.

Most important lesson to date for both of you. It is important that you both share exactly how you feel with each other even if it can be hurtful. I promise that nothing you have said is more hurtful than the first blow and he is working through this.

You husband seems very similar to me in how that he processes information and works through decisions. I made a decision within 2 hours that I was going to make my marriage work and be better. Maybe not the smartest move to commit that early but that is how I have been trained to make decisions, and my gut feeling is rarely wrong. Even though he wants to move forward from here, let him know that if he needs to come back to this at some point, the door is open. There will be days and different triggers even well into recovery that make the BS sink deep back into their hole. Be there for him. If you are both working to meet the others EN, those good thoughts are at the forefront of their mind, even when digressing in the process. The fuller the love bank, the easier the rebound.

My wife is like your H. She occassionally reads on here but is not that comfortable posting. Obviously, I could write a novel or two on this board. However, this process is very therapeutic for both of us. Sometimes, especially when something is really bothering me and I post it here or respond to another post and she later reads it, it comes out better in written form than I could have communicated directly to her. Our radical honesty policy means that when she sees something that bothers her that I wrote or felt, we talk about it. Often by the time that we have talked about it, I am already down the road a ways, but it helps her understand where I was coming from at the time and more importantly allows her to understand why that certain things were like they were at that time.

Keep the honesty between you. Do not hide any of your feelings from your H in order to protect him. He has already shown you that he is tough ashell and is willing to work to change so that you can love him. This is a process that has to be improved everyday. Recovery is an evolution, not a revolution.

NT

I think I would go ahead and write a no contact letter if your husband agrees. It is part of the plan here. It should say something like the affair was a huge mistake, that you love your husband and are working on making a wonderful marriage. Say that you won't contact the OM for any reason and expect no contact from him ever again.

This is straight from the horse's mouth ... how to start NC.....

How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.

SC:

I think you guys have made a great move getting your BH to come on here. Both MM and I have posted to his post on the recovery board.

Hope things are going well for you both. As per his post, he feels like that you are withdrawn a little right now. I told him that is pretty normal. Please remember that radical honesty is absolutely necessary in rebuilding your R. If you are down or feeling unworthy, let him know. Maybe there is nothing that he can do about it but at least it keeps him from imagining something far worse (like a relapse). My FWW and I have found through our recovery that there is often times that we each need a little space. Best practice is to leave the room when asked for space and then reassure the S that you will be in the living room or somewhere if they need you. Give them thirty minutes or so and then check in.

You seem to have a great husband. He is willing to work on this and has already made many changes that are productive in building a healthy marriage. You need to continue to try and allow yourself to love him and/or fall in love with him. Keep working and post back on progress or questions when you can.

NT

Hey gang,

Thanks for all your responses so far to my BS's first post. You guys are awsome!

I haven't posted for awhile because... I don't know... I guess I'm feeling kind of stuck. He's doing everything right. I'm trying to do the right thing. But I'm still not feeling the earth move.

One thing I could use some input on:

We've both filled out the EN questionaire from this web site and we plan to go over them and talk about them this weekend. I don't know how he responded yet, but he has already told me that he wants and needs more intimacy from me (Affection and SF). Problem is, those are the only two needs I REALLY don't feel like meeting right now. It's one thing to talk more or do more housework when you don't really feel like it. It's another to have sex when you don't want to. It's a catch-22. If I say no -- I'm not "enganging my giver" nor "meeting his EN's". Then I feel guilty, because as the FWW, I should be bending over backwards to do those things. On the other hand, if I say yes when I really want to say no -- I'm going to end up feeling either violated (probably too strong a word, but you catch my drift) or like I'm just using him for my own pleasure. Or both! We fooled around a bit last Friday night, and the next day I felt bad about it and withdrew (threw up my wall). I couldn't really figure out why myself, much less explain it to him, so I just said "I'm still confused". Which just left him feeling hurt and confused. And round and round we go. So what on earth am I supposed to do????

--SC

Hi SC,

i am glad to see you posting. you are very much on my mind and in my prayers. your story has touched me very much. i realize you do not know mine but i was a FWW, i had a lot more to confess than you, it took me two times to get it all out. first one was march 2004, second in oct 2004, so we are about 1yr since total disclousure.

i was very happy to hear how your husband responded.

on to your questions... ok, so your husband has needs and you do not feel like meeting them. sounds like you need to dig in a bit more to understand why. specifically, why did you feel bad about the fooling around that occured friday night? to which you have already said, you can not figure it out either.

so lets back up a bit. how about when you were together on friday night, did you enjoy the time together when you were in the moment? how was it physically and how was it mentally/emotionally?

you said you felt bad about it the next day, can you try to re-examine what your thought procces was as you went from enjoying it to feeling bad?

as for it being a catch-22, i don't see why that is, if you are not open to meeting his needs, you are not engaging your giver, bottomline.

on the other hand, you say i should not force myself to do something i don't want to do. ok, but you do need to force yourself to figure out why you don't want to meet that need. it is a very valid need.

remember you are a team, communication is KEY!!! tell him as much as you possible can. "i'm still confused" is a very vague answer. keep digging into the issues and keep being open to him.

Good for you for coming clean. I went through something very similar to what your H is going through. I never drank or watched sports or viewed porn as an alternative to family time, but I did have a clandestine nicotine addiction that my FWW hated.

Your husband's response is encouraging. The fog you still feel is normal. It took my W six weeks to come totally clean and another several to act really loving again. I still don't trust her, though. I'm still spying on her rather diligently. Maybe I'll be able to quit someday.

Hopefully your husband will wake up and survive this and whip himself into shape in the meantime. I know I'm a better man from what my wife put me through. I think our M is better overall as well- at least it will be in the long term.

Just be really nice and loving to him, and don't forget SF as it's tremendously important to mens sense of well being(even if you don't really want to).

Good luck

Hey... Finally Learning...
CAN'T ANYONE JUST GIVE A STRAIGHTFORWARD ANSWER AROUND HERE??? DOES EVERYTHING HAVE TO LEAD TO MAJOR PSYCHOANALYSIS??? Just kidding! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I guess the hard work is just starting. You actually pose some excellent questions... questions I had better address with myself and my husband before I go rambling on here.

I just realized something else. I have a wicked hard time talking to him about all this stuff. The radical honesty thing is excruciating for me. I have a much easier time working through my thoughts when I'm writing them than when I'm saying them out loud for the first time. As a result, you guys get me thinking... I can't wait to get to the bottom of things... so I post stuff here that I haven't yet discussed with him... he reads it and gets upset that he had to come here to find out.... yadda, yadda, yadda. I think we need to get our printer fixed ASAP so I can continue to work out my thoughts in writing, print them out, and use the printouts to refer to when I talk to him.

--SC

I am a BS but I can relate. I did not want to have SF with my Wh at all. I felt used and at one point asked him to leave some cash on the end table. Small steps may help. Holding hands, playing some fun games like darts or cards. Music helped me. It will be a year since D-day here and one flase recovery but I am starting to feel love for my H again. Small steps may be in order.

SC, you made me laugh... no, we NEVER give straight answers!!!


actually i find that i have more success talking to H AFTER i ramble here. my H does not read here though. any chance you and H can make an agreement to NOT read certain threads. i know there are other couples that have both reading here and same issue came up. having you both here has advantages and disadvantages. this is one of the disadvantages, but maybe it is workable.

ask him what he thinks about having some thread kept private at times. as long as eventually you end up sharing with him too. obviously that is your goal, to share with him!!

just work out a plan that you are both comfortable with. he sounds like a very reasonable man!! i bet he would understand how you sometimes need a bit of time and some rambling and feedback before you can discuss with him.

and, you are correct... the hard work is just beginning!! but it is good hard work <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. C,

You said
You are on the right track. Now here is where radical honesty starts...baby steps. Sit your H down and explain to him that this board is where you can get thoughts out (even incomplete thoughts). It is where you are getting feedback about your thinking process and then be honest with him. Here is where you tell him you will discuss ANYTHING with him, but you need time to process and this site is where that happens.

You also said you have a hard time talking with your H. You like to write things down. Again radical honesty requires that you tell him you have a hard time talking to him. Simple right? Then do as you thought write things out, mull them over, then write/email/post here your thoughts to him.

Here is another way to radical honesty. You make sure you never lie to him, but what you can also do is "label" your thoughts. For example if you are "venting" start by saying this is a "vent". If you are mulling over things but you are confused, start the post by saying you are puzzled and struggling to sort things out. If you have a deep insight (a truism if you will), the label it that way.

The idea is that you are letting your H KNOW what he is seeing and where it is coming from. Is it coming from your confusion, is it coming as you sort ideas, is it coming from a deep insight that you feel to be true? It will help him and it is radically honest.

You see being radically honest, is NOT just being honest (even to a fault), it is providing the context within which communications are occuring. He is not left to guess, he knows when you are mad and just venting, he knows when you are confused and sorting ideas, he knows when you have discovered a self-truth about yourself or him.

Do you see my point? Many people assume that radical honesty means you blurt out the "truth" no matter what and let the chips fall where they may. There is an element to that, but what it really means in my mind is that you give your H all of the information he needs to truely understand what you are saying. If you are confused or of mixed mind, tell him that before you go on. If you are feeling down, let him know before you go on. You see him honestly KNOWING the context of your statements can mean as much as what you state.

Does this make sense? I hope so. You can ramble here, but make sure he or anyone knows it is your rambling as you sort ideas. Then his feelings won't be hurt, and in fact you just might find that he can help you.

Now to the issue of SF and intimacy. Clearly you have stated it here so he will know if he does not already that you don't desire him. That hurts. But, do you understand why you don't desire him? I'm betting it has little to do with him, but more about your feelings about yourself, withdrawal from OM, and general unease about your life right now. Talk to him about these things, let him be your partner in these things.

Finally, here is something for you to consider. Your H may need SF with you for reasons you don't truely understand. One of them just might be so that he can bring YOU pleasure. You mentioned you felt bad because you just might be using him for your own relief. Talk to him about this, you might find that he would not mind being nothing more than that for awhile.

You have missed the essence of love in some ways, part of it is the desire to be needed. His desire for SF is likely part of his desire for you to need him to help you. Do you see what I mean?

His need may have more to do with making you feel good than making him feel good. If you are denying yourself that, then you are hurting both of you unnecessarily. Talk to the man about this.

He will be able to understand your lack of desire for him, IF you are honest with yourself and him AND you begin to realize that SF is rarely just about satisfaction of the self, but of the partner. Talk, talk, talk, or Write, Write, Write, if you prefer.

Hope something I have said will be of help.

God Bless,

JL

SC,

You are on the right track. It is excruiating to have a RH when you are used to compartmentalizing your live in order to justify your A. Often I use writing to work my thoughts out and sometimes I just give the written statement to my FWW and let her read it and then we discuss later. This really helps on the really tough issues that are just too hard to answer in person or too emotional that it risks LB's if they are not brought up correctly.

Please tell your husband that I understand his thoughts of why he is hurt when you lay your thoughts out on this forum before you talk to him. Please explain to him that you are not hiding anything from him anymore, you were the one who brought him to the site, encouraged him to read and got him to register. You are confused as is every WS soon after the AE. Explain to your Dear H that all you are trying to do by posting on these boards is to utilize others experiences so that you can better understand what the problems and feeling really are so that you can do a better job of working through them with him. Unfortunately, I remember some of the things that my FWW told me that really hurt more than 10 years ago and I didn't even know or suspect that an A was occurring. I have been able to work through these hurtful statements as I finally started to understand why she thought what she thought at the time. Most of the things that were most hurtful came right out of the WS Handbook. As I have discussed some of these since D-day, she is surprised that she even said them but realizes why she felt that way at the time. This will all pass with open communication and committment from both of you to rebuilding the M.

As for SF and affection. Really tough issues. We have had some of the same issues and mostly worked through them. Right after D-day, the emotions are so high on both sides that it is either a love fest or it just doesn't happen at all. My drive, like most men's is significantly higher than my W. She has been working with the IC in this regard and it has resulted in huge changes in her drive. This is an issue that I would seriously suggest seeking professional guidance on. You want to be able to meet his EN's without building up resentment for doing so. If you are a willing partner, the SF will be much better than if you do it out of guilt or feeling of owing him this. I would suggest that you both find MC and/or IC as soon as possible to work through some of these issues with an objective third party. I don't know exactly what the IC has been discussing with my FWW, but with her increased libido (or at least willingness to fake it) I am thinking about giving IC a nice tip.

NT

Smart Cookie,
Glad you are posting on the site. There is a lot of help out here for you.
Be patient with getting your marriage on track again. You have run over your husband emotionally like being run over by a truck. It will take time for him to deal with his numerous emotions that he will experience after finding out that you had a relationship with someone other than himself. For a while you all will be doing the dance around each other of not knowing what or when to say certain things to each other. Please don't blast each other with unkind words. If your spouse wants to be left alone, let him be. If he seeks your company try and do something you both enjoy together. Trust takes a long time to rebuild again. Show your spouse you are serious in making your marriage work and that you are in it for better and for worse. Tell him you are not looking for the easy way out. Take one day at a time. Cherish the good days. There will be some. And be prepared for the terrible days there will be those as well. It does get easier. Just be patient and have alot of faith. Set many goals to improve your marriage and keep on keeping on. You will see the light at the end of the tunne. Love can be lost for a time but it can also be found again! Through the scars and bandaids in life we often find a tougher and more resilent type of love for our marriages and that is a good result of something that could have ended tragically.