Hey FL,
Don't worry. It felt really good to focus on someone else for awhile. By the way, Congrats on the conversation with your brother!!!!
Gotta go for the night... will try to check in tomorrow... Good Night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
--SC

Hark SC,

Do I detect a perspective shift here? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I think so. Further it is cool that you are feeling comfortable enough to offer advice. You are doing well.

In case you are wondering what I am talking about you said
Oh SC, I think you are glimpsing what love is really all about. I hope you have continued progress in seeing things this way.

Then you said
Yup, I think a see a paradigm shift going on here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

AND THEN you said:
Now you have it. "Working" on a marriage can be fun. Further, here is something for you to consider very carefully. Let me use an analogy that might offer you some insight. When you first married it was like having a baby. It just came, you KNEW you were supposed to love it and take care of it. There really was not decision making involved. Rebuilding a marriage is sort of like adopting a baby. This time YOU get to choose. You have to make a conscious effort to pick this child and commit to loving it although you might not originally be as emotionally attached.

What you may be realizing is that your H chose to marry you once, but that was when everything was going right, with deep feelings of love, but not a lot of negative. This time he is chosing to be married you KNOWING that you can/could/have betrayed him. You are chosing to be married with your eyes open, hence some of the tripedation you express.

What you will come to realize is that this time the marriage can be special in very very unique ways. Inspite of all of the pain and uncertainty you two have chosen to OVERCOME it all and LOVE one another. But, this time you understand that love is a verb, not a feeling.

You are doing well SC, keep up the good work.

God Bless, and have a good Thanksgiving.

JL

You two ladies are really good for each other ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

happy thanksgiving SC. been a long day here, i am anxious to get out of the office. talk to you next week.

JL -- you're right. My perspective is definately changing. For Thanksgiving, I wrote my husband a long note, telling him how thankful I am for HIM, and for all that he's done to save our marriage and show me how much I mean to him. It brought tears to his eyes, and made me feel really good. I feel like we've come a long way in a pretty short period of time, and he deserves a great deal of the credit for that.

On the other hand, I'm worried that it won't last. I mean, right now it's almost like we're newlyweds again. Like we're just getting to know each other. And we're both putting a lot of energy into it. I just don't trust it. I know that sounds awful, but that's how I feel. I'm still afraid to let my guard down.

I've told my H I'm afraid that, over time, we'll slip back into the same old patterns. He says he knows he won't, but I don't see how he can say that. I know he's sincere, but it feels like we're still in crisis mode, and I'm afraid of what might happen when the crisis has passed.

I still think we need to address the underlying issues that allowed us to get to where we were (ie my affair, his addictions). And I think that's where our MC is taking us. So I guess we'll see.

--SC

Concern is okay, SC. It is natural to doubt. It is a defense mechanism.

I used to jump out of helicopters in the Army. everytime I went up, I had this feeling like thinsg wouldnt work this time, that I might not land all in one piece. But did that keep me from moving forward? Nope. I overcame my fears, and accomplished the mission.

How did I feel afterwards? Awesome. There is somethign about a rush when you dont let your fears win out.

I have fears of my wife running off. They are less so now, but still there. And everytime I CHOOSE to not let my fears win out, it almost always is followed with an awesome feeling of closeness with my wife. And each time, it gets even closer.

The times you fear will lessen if you will do this. Understand that it is natural to fear. Of course, dont stick your head in the sand. But at the same time, dont let fear keep you from your goal. The fear you have has nothing to do with your husband. It is YOUR fear...you can control it.

In His arms.

SC,

AS MM said this is normal. However, there are somethings that YOU need to recognize. One is that while your H has handled this very well, it was an earth shaking shock to him. He is and has been hurting far more than you realize. Consequently, he has been changed mostly for the better, but with respect to confidence probably for the worse. He is not the same man he was a few months ago, and he will never be again. Your affair was and is a life altering experience for the both of you, so it is NOT ever likely to go back to what it was again. Let's start with that.

Now let's consider something else. As your perspective and HIS have changed as your paradigm has changed, you are seeing far more than you used to with respect to your marriage and your H. The same is true for him. Therefore, you two cannot go back.

Now through in that you can now communicate at a level that neither of you could before, I mean telling your spouse about an A, means that there is little you could tell him that would hurt as much. Further, him hearing it and talking to you about it was about as difficult thing as he has ever had to discuss with someone, there is less for you to fear by speaking up toward one another now.

Add to this that you two are now aware of love busters and the affect of what many consider to be "innocent" comments have on marriage, and you should have some confidence.

But, SC, the real key is respect. The real key is empathy. The real key is realizing that love is a verb that YOU do, not part of what you feel. As you two realize these things, there is little chance he will go back.

Here is a test for you to consider. Ask yourself and your H if you are not happier now than you have been in years if not most of your marriage. Ask yourself what about the "old days" you miss or would enjoy repeating? I think the answers are self-evident.

Yes, you can and so can your H mess up this marriage. No doubt about this, but it will take selfishness. On the other hand, you both know what you stand to lose as well.

So for most people in your situation as recovery moves along, they come to realize they need to value their spouse, enjoy their strengths, help with their weakness, and let the milk of human kindness wash over them.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Brilliant, JL.

In His arms.

As ususal, you guys are right on target.
Of particular help to me:


MM, you are sooooo right. I'm coming to realize that the sexual abuse when I was a kid affected me in ways I never realized. Among them, I do not really know how to accept unconditional love, nor do I trust that it is real or that it will last. as you say, it is a defense mechanism. I need to work on this.

and this:

JL, I need to remind myself of this every day. Much of my life has been about keeping secrets (yet another bit of baggage from my childhood). Even though my H is doing all he can to make me feel safe, it's a hard habit to break. I'm workin' on it, though.

Thanks again guys!

--SC

SC,

You said
SC, keeping secrets is not a habit. It is as MM said a self-defense mechanism. Once you feel, understand, adjust to the fact that you can trust your H, you will flourish in the freedom you will have to share your life. You will find joy in seeing his joy at knowing about your life. You have no idea yet, but it is coming.

Oh! are you are at risk? Yup, you still are. Your H is human. But, SC the thing you have not learned yet but which is very evident, is that YOU are strong enough to handle it. You were not as a child (and you should/could NOT have been) but you are now. THAT in my mind is the secret you have been keeping from yourself (you are strong enough to handle a relationship with your H).

I am sure this will take time. Everyone that has posted here with a background of childhood abuse has taken awhile and considerable counseling to get through this, but many have gone on to flourish. I think you will as well. Give it time, realize there will be ups and downs, and realize that you need your H's help AND he will need yours. He is only human which...makes life together fun/deep/painful/loving/interesting and challenging <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

God Bless,

JL

Hey,

Anyone got their "kick in the pants" boots on this afternoon? I'm in need.

Things between me and Mr. Cookie have been good. Very good. We've been talking, spending time together, having fun and SF. Since the beginning, he has been so clear about what his role has been, what he wants, and what he needs to do to get it. He could have written the book on executing Plan A, and he'd never even heard of Plan A!

I, to be honest, have done a pretty good job opening up to him. I do feel close to him now, closer than I have in years. And if feels really good to be affectionate to him and do nice things for him.

He, as a person seems to be doing really well. We, as a couple seem to be doing well. But I'm not so sure about me, not-so-smart-cookie. Let me throw out a couple of the troublesome thoughts and feelings I've been having. They're really embarassing, disgraceful even, but I'm afraid that if I don't face them and deal with them, they'll derail our progress. And I'm not sure how to deal with them on my own.

I still think about OM every day. Sometimes I remember the excitement I felt being with him, and sometimes my thoughts center around his rejection of me and how much that hurt. I have fantacies of him trying to contact me again just so I can tell him to piss off. Thinking about him now, when my husband is being so good to me, seems like even more of a betrayal than the actual A. Why am I still obsessing about a guy who is not even one-tenth of the man I'm married to?

As wonderful as is to feel the real love that my husband showers upon me, I still have cravings for the rush and tingly feeling of NEW love/lust. Before my affair, I satisfied those urges by flirting with other guys. Not gonna do that anymore. But what am I supposed to do about the cravings?

Kick away...

-SC

((( hug )))

I think this is par and not at all unusual ...

look into the eyes of your children ... and imagine their world torn apart ... because their mother had cravings <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Now imagine your 'cravings' are for cocaine or heroin .... so much more exciting than regular life ....

deep breaths
go for a walk
do 20 sit ups
skip around the room
call your husband
say a prayer
go do the dishes

your cravings are not comands ... you can shake them off

Pep left off an option:

Run back to OM and beg him on your knees to continue your adultery.

Does not sound too good put that way, though.

Personally, I like Call Your Husband. I think he will too. A lot.

With prayers,

Flirt with your husband. Switch gears and imagine sexy scenes in your mind with him. You can purposefully push OM out of your mind, SC and replace him with sexy thoughts of your H. Allow yourself to feel those "in love" tingly feelings with your H, the man of your dreams again.

You know what's funny about flirting with your husband after years of not doing it and after flirting with other men and having an affair?

YOU ARE NERVOUS about it...and it feels unnatural to think about...but the first time you try it...you actually get nervous...you get tingly.

It may take your husband a few tries too to realizing you are flirting and flirt back, but it becomes a challenge.

Its something that you probably haven't done for years, and brushed off as my husband doesn't care if I flirt with him, or why would I flirt with him, as I have him...but trying to flirt with him is more nerve wracking then you think - and it's a very similar nervous flirting you get when you flirt with someone you like for the first time.

And even if you H gives you a what the heck look the first few times...don't take it like rejection - keep it up.

Seriously FF is right - this will help you ALOT...

Fantasize about your husband...even if it seems unnatural at first...place him in a fantasy - you will find yourself being more and more randy about your husband.

For the first time in YEARS I want sex with my husband OFTEN!!! Right now he is the one not wanting it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> lol...but I have mini fantasies about him and all of a sudden I am rarin' to go...

You just have to work at it...even in the beginning when it feels wierd and out of character for you - it does work!!!

Thanks for the kicks Alph and Pep. And for the hug, too, Pep.

Faithful and Dorry -- you seem to really "get me". Although I don't talk about it much here, I am deeply devoted to my girls (Pep). I want to do what's right for them AND my husband.

That said, I have spent my entire life with nose to the grindstone... trying to do what I "should", what "people expect of me", what's "right"... trying to be perfect (anyone read the enneagram description of a perfectionist? That's me). Now, there's nothing wrong with trying to be a fine, upstanding citizen. But in the process, I think I supressed my own needs and desires. And I think my affair, in part, was a rebellion. Sooo, if I want to prevent history from repeating itself...

I need to recognize that I have a strong desire for excitment and passion (not a need, because I could survive without it, but a strong desire.) I could try to supress it. But I think a much more effective strategy will be to rechannel that desire -- figure out healthier ways to satisfy it. That's why I like your suggestions Faithful and Dorry. In fact, I've already been doing it with very good results! (blush!)

But here's what still concerns me: Being with my husband right now is very much like being with a "new" flame. Can that be sustained over time? How do you do that?

--SC

SC, glad our suggestions worked for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> As FWW's we do have some understanding of the need for that excitement though I shudder to remember myself from back then.

As to your question above..well my H and I are divorcing which is not due to my A but his...but when I thought we were in recovery I found that most days I could sustain the excitement of a new love with him and some days I reveled in the sameness and safety of knowing him. SF improved 10 fold with us in the last year because once I realized how important it was to both of us I was sure to put my whole self into it. I used fantasy about my H to get myself worked up ahead of time and would tease him with little hints throughout the evening. It really helped. I hope this helps. You are doing great!

well...my husband hasn't stepped up to the plate in that area..right now he hasn't been too keen on sex or romance, and all people go through times like that.

So I keep my fantasies alive...still flirt with him...a bit more of a challenge.

I do sometimes feel disappointed or rejected but you see - I figured out my affair had alot more to do with poor coping skills than years of resentment. The years of resentment turned actually to just be justifucations to add fuel to the fire - they were REALLY the real source of why I did what i did (took me months and months and months to get to the point of figuring that out)

You see I was a bit co-dependent and put alot of my worth into how I could fix H's problems, make his life easier and help him succeed and how much he needed me. Control issues on my part.

I had 3 major sugeries with the last one losing my uterus. I wasn't handling it well. My past history since teenage hood now shows cycles of when lots was going on, being unable to cope and being self destrutive - 6 nights a week out at the bar drinking, as a teenager cutting my hand for attention...I never noticed the pattern until i was looking back for answers.

Here I was now - not dealing well with a major change and loss, Hs company was going under and he was failing, so i felt like a failure and to remain in control i started to nag, control in my attempts to regain and "help" my husband - which led to him feeling put down and ignoring me, so when I started to realize something might be wrong with me - he ignored me by then...then I used that as fuel as nothing is wrong with me - it's how he treats me...and you can see how it perpetuates into more.

You see because I figured this all out - I have different coping skills now, that reprogrammed how I think during those times of need, rejection, panic. The new thought patterns really make a difference.

I of course haven't tested this long term...lol, but I am confident that even if after years I start to feel bad, my new practiced communication skills will also help. I wont have an affair, I will lay it out for my husband, the danger I am feeling, and not beat around the bush like I used to (even when I thought I was being direct)

It's all about changing you and how you handle things, perceive things, communicate, etc. Lots of self analysis and lots of pattern seeking - but all worth it.

I am 56, my H is 55 .... we have been married nearly 25 years ...

not all the time, but plenty enough to embarrass our children ... we go after each other in total lust... because we are HONEST and we share our innermost INTIMATE thoughts and desires ... THAT is what keeps the [color:"red"] ~flame~[/color] alive ... the INTIMACY.

guess what? <~~~ secrecy kills intimacy.

PS ~~~> my weekend hickey on my neck is finally gone today! Our son said "disgusting" .... but I am sure he secretly hopes he feels this way about any future wife of his after 25 years of togetherness!