Hi everyone,

This is my first post, although I've been lurking for several months, gaining valuable information and hepful advice.

I need to know how to ask my husband for a divorce while minimizing his pain. Is it possible?? I love my husband, but I can't live with him anymore. We've been together for 15 years, and he's SO different from when we were first married. He's spent a lot of our marriage "bettering" himself...working toward his accademic pursuits. It's left me feeling inferior (I am a college-degreed stay-at-home mom). I feel like I don't quite "fit" in his world.

We've had Myers-Briggs personality tests done in the past. If you know anything about them, then you'll understand why we're not terribly compatible. I'm an ISTJ and he's an ENTP. We see the world from totally different perspectives. He's a good father, although he's neglected me and our children for A LOT of years because he's been busy going to school in addition to working. He's a good provider, and he's in the process of changing careers where he'll start making in the 6-figure range. But I'm miserable. I'm so afraid that if I leave him, I'll end up spending the rest of my life alone. But, I'm also afraid that if I stay with him, I may never find the happiness and satisfaction I long for.

He's a good guy, really he is. I don't want to hurt him, because he really loves me and will be crushed when I tell him I want to leave. Any suggestions on how to ease into this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
crystal43

I have a suggestion.

Work on yourself, why you feel inferior, and enjoy the fact that he loves you.

So many say they don't feel their spouse loves them, and here you say you love him and you feel he loves you, yet you want to leave.

All you mention are fears. You mention you are afraid you will not find the satisfaction and happiness you long for. So are you saying that it's ok for you to search for this knowing you would break his heart and the heart of the children to go off on your solo search for happiness and satisfaction?

It's not him, you are responsible for your own happiness.

If you have valid concerns about fitting in, then have a respectful conversation with him.

What I would suggest before you do anything, is to have in your mind what your picture of happiness and satisfaction look like to you, THEN approach him and ask him to be your partner in creating what it is you want.

If you don't know what this looks like, it's not fair to expect him to figure it out.

If you do know, but cannot or will not share it with him, he is still at a very big disadvantage.

I doubt your husband is perfect, we all make mistakes.

If you feel neglected, then be honest and share with him what you feel is important.

At the same time, appreciate his contributions.

I think I would start with being able to describe your picture of happiness to him, and then trying to get him to agree to spend at least 15 hours/week of working on making that happen.

If you can't paint that picture to yourself, or if it vague, then don't do anything until you can describe that picture in terms that ANY person can understand.

If you are an ISTJ, then you know that setting a goal of being happy is not easily quantified.

Leaving just creates a new set of problems. So why not define what you believe the solution to be, and also give your H a chance to offer his vision.

If the two of you cannot craft a vision of a happy marriage that is compatible, then I would suggest leaving. But at least come to the table with an honest attempt to create a marriage that you both are enthusiastic about before you split up.

I wish my wife had done that. So perhaps I'm projecting my desires on you a bit here. Well, I honestly believe that this is what marriage is supposed to be, working together, being open and honest about what you want, what your vision is, and to find a way to find mutual enthusiasm.

T

Thank you so much for your post. I know why it is that I feel inferior--my husband has a bachelor's and master's degree, and will be a lawyer soon. He's incredibly arrogant, although it's probably his ENTP personality that makes him appear to be arrogant.

And he and I have discussed our marriage. Things had gotten so bad between us that he told me to leave, I had an affair, I said "ok" to divorce, and then he became suicidal. We got through all of that, we read the Dr. Harley books, worked on getting rid of LBs, etc. He worked on meeting my ENs and I on his. But, as soon as the "crisis point" in the relationship was over, he went right back to his old, self-centered ways. He can't even commit to 15 hours per week anymore, because his school and work schedules are too hectic.

As far as my "ideal" relationship goes...hmmm. I want to not be bored with conversation with my spouse and to have more things in common, which aren't merely "his" interests. I want to not be dominated when it comes to conversation.

In an argument, I don't want to feel like a fool (my husband uses all his legal arguing skills against me in every arguement. It's like David going up against Goliath, only without God behind him.).

I want my interests to not be dismissed. Often I will start telling my husband something, and he'll cut me off, saying I've already told him, and he has NO IDEA what I was going to say. It's annoying.

I want a spouse who listens to my concerns, and if I ask him to try to work on an annoying habit, he'll actually attempt. (My husband CONSTANTLY teases our daughters, and they really don't like it. For four years I've been telling him this, they've told him this, and yet he continues.)

I want to be with someone who's somewhat handy around the house. I've had to learn how to do so many things by myself...projects that would NEVER get done if I waited for my husband to do them, because if they're not accademic in nature, he's not interested. I've learned how to install electric and new light fixtures, hang and finish drywall, re-design and install a closet organization system, fix the vacumm cleaner, etc. He "doesn't have time" to do these things...like I do either!

I would like my life to be less stress-filled. I've taken over so many of his responsibilities around the house and have made excuses to the kids WAY too many times to count about why Daddy can't spend time with them...it's very difficult. And, as he changes careers and becomes an attorney, I only expect things to get more stressful as he works all hours of the day and night, paying his "dues," trying to make himself invaluable to his law firm...plus all the time he'll spend when he's not working, networking with other lawyers and politicians to further his career.

I would like to be able to pursue my own interests once in a while. But, feeling like a single parent in all the hours I spend taking care of our children, there's no time for any pursuit of my own.

I'd like for someone to love me for ME, and not constantly make suggestions about how I can "better" myself. When my husband pursues his dreams, he projects them on me. "Honey, you should go to law school too. You'd be GREAT at it!" he says. "Hey, how about being a paralegal? You could study to do that if you want." I don't WANT to do those things. Am I not ok just the way I am?? And, when I cook dinner, he's forever making suggestions about how to make the meal better. I've told him that these things bother me, but he doesn't listen. He always feels this need to educate me.

I guess all of that is to say that I don't take the decision to divorce lightly. As an ISTJ, my enormous sense of responsibility has kept me in this marriage for way too many years. I feel responsible for his happiness, the kids' happiness, our parents' happiness and respect of us, so I didn't want to disappoint anyone by leaving. But, in the process I feel that I've lost myself. I want to get "me" back, and I feel like I can't do that in my husband's world, because I spend so much of my time picking up his slack and helping and encouraging him in his pursuits (I've done 100s of hours of research for him in his job changes and I've edited every major writing assignment he's ever turned in over the last decade, just to name a few.).

Thank you for your suggestions.

crystal

I think you take the DJ's out of what you said, frame it in terms of what you want and what you are willing to live with, and go to him and share what you want without being judgmental. When you say you are bored, that is judgmental, just as an example.

H, I want to have a marriage where I am not cut off when I'm talking, where I can cook dinner without comment or criticsm, where we spend 15 hours/week together.

Tell him you are not willing to live with things the way they are.

But also be willing to listen to what his idea of that happy marriage is.

You've done a great job of describing what it is to you. What does he want?

Oh, and perhaps you can leave out the desire for him to become a handy man. If he doesn't like it, he doesn't like it. He is not a project, he's a person that gets to decide what he likes and doesn't like, just like you.

Why not engage the Harley's for this?

T

I do have MUCH to contemplate.

You're right that there are DJs in my post. Thank you for pointing it out. I will try to do better. I don't want to come across as combative, but, at the same time, I do want to get my point across in a way that he will actually hear. I've told him many of these things so many times over the years, but he's never "heard" them.

Thanks,
crystal

It's hard for him to hear when he feels attacked. That's why I suggest you take out all the DJ's and things that make him feel attacked.

Keep the focus on what you want, how you feel and what you are willing to live with and give him the floor to listen to what he has to say as well.

How you frame the discussion has a great deal of bearing on how it will go.

If he cuts you off, say politely, please let me finish. You can't force him to not cut you off, but you can politely share that you would like to finish your thought before you are cut off.

T

I have a book recommendation:

Just Your Type by Barron and Teiger

It deals with the MBTI types and communication between the types.

My x is probably an ISTJ. As an ENFP, I can't imagine an ISTJ ever feeling inferior. I can imagine them making a lot of disrespectful statements. So, I will ask, have you read any of the Harley's materials on Love Buster and Emotional Needs? See, the one communication style I remember and still experience from my ISTJ x is dictatorial, demanding, demeaning communication. Please check out your communication.

And, could you h's arrogance, as you perceive it, be a way of covering up something in his life that he doesn't want others to see?

I would recommend counseling. I don't consider counseling an expense. I consider it an investment.

Crystal,

MBTI is a great piece of knowledge to work with, however, not all ISTJs are born equal. . . some are nice, i work with a nice one. . some are emotionally disordered, mostly the ones that end up on here. .

my point is that MBTI doesn't explain everything. . . especially if the person is arrogant, hurtful, etc. . . that is not an MBTI trait. . .or characteristic. . .

if i were you, i would start reading up on emotional disorders. . . and there are always degrees. . . many b&w types on here cringe, but there are always degrees. . .

start with narcissism, and work from there. . .
good luck

wiftty

Crystal,

You have more to contemplate than you realize. Look at your posts and you complain about what you "feel" he does to you. But, what I see is a woman that has not set and protected her boundaries. If you feel you lose all arguements then...don't argue with him. It is not a good thing to do, and there are much more effective ways to deal with things. Further, if he interrupts you, stop wait for him to finish and then continue on with what YOU are saying. Or more forcefully request that he respect you enough to listen to what you have to say before he puts you down.

Your problem is not your husband, it is your lack of boundaries and a plan to conduct your marriage in a way that is more compatable with BOTH of your desires. I also suspect there is a bit of bitteness left in your H concerning your affair from what you have said. How well did you to deal with that? Did you have counseling? Are you both on the same page concerning the affair?

I find it interesting that you have a good husband, a good father, a man that wants to better himself, and thus your life and ...it is not enough. I am thinking that IF you change how you act, you will see changes in your marriage. IF you set your boundaries and express them clearly and cleanly, you will see a change in his response to you.

You don't have to be beligerent, you have to be clear and consistent about your boundaries and I think you will see change.

To answer your question, you cannot ask a man that loves you for a divorce and NOT hurt him AND your family. Please consider some alternative strategies to obtain the marriage you want and one where BOTH of you prosper.

God Bless,

JL

How would you live your life if you were on your own?
How would it be different than it is now?
How would it be harder?
How would it be easier?
Why can't you do some of those things now?

Crystal,
I am like your husband in many ways. My wife moved out two weeks ago and is seeking a divorce from me. We have been together for 8 years and married just over 3. I just finished MBA school and I am very motivated regarding success and career objectives. For the past couple of years I constantly judged my wife by my own measuring stick. Honey, why don't you stop watching TV and better yourself? I was constantly making her feel like she was not perfect just the way she was. I did this often enough and over a long enough period of time that she finally had enough. I extinguished her love for me with DJ's and angry outbursts. Then I got even more aggrivated that she wasn't on my plan for moving to our next home and having kids. All the while, our physical relationship became non-existent and I became even more frustrated.

Why am I telling you all of this about my situation? Because it took my wife leaving me to finally get it. I have lost the most precious and wonderful thing in my life and there is nothing I can do about it. Once I "woke up" and realized what I have done, there is no turning back. I am changed forever. Knowing I caused much of this makes the situation even more difficult. I pray that you will give your husband the opportunity to wake up. Communicate with him. Even separate for a while until he wakes up, but please don't just end it. It is happening to me and if my wife knew my heart and what kind of husband I will be, she would realize that our relationship can be restored. Unfortunately, I will not have that chance because in my wife's mind it is too late.

You can have all you desire and save your marriage if you communicate the depth of your hurt to your husband and let him know the consequences of his behavior. I can tell you coming from the other side that once he realizes what he has done and what he is losing, he will be a changed man.

I've read everyone's posts over the last few days. I've basically laid it all out for my H. I told my therapist that I had a list of reasons why I wanted out of the marriage. The therapist told me to bring it and we'd discuss it. Well, I decided to write H a letter, telling him the things that are "deal breakers" in our relationship. I did try to remove all DJs, though I'm sure it had some, unintentionally. He got VERY angry, and wrote a relatively hateful letter to me. We had a HUGE fight, LBs were flying, he pushed all my buttons, and I pushed his. It is quite amazing how we know just how to hurt those we love.

We finally resolved things. He took all the letters to the therapist, and the therapist shed some new perspective for him, which softened his attitude toward me. I realize that I've got work to do and so does he. Part of my wanting to leave is that we're on the vurge of a move, and that terrifies the ISTJ in me. And, rather than move with him to start a new life, my instinct is to run in the other direction. I know that's something I need to work on. He and I are working together, and eventually we'll get it right, or we'll get it so wrong that it'll be over once and for all.

Thanks for all the advice.

Crystal

Have you read the material about emotional needs? It looks like you have read some here, Love Busters and Disrespectful Judgements. That's good. Sometimes getting it out in the open helps you know what there is to deal with. And it seems you have located a source of your inner struggle. That's can all be good stuff.

I feel like such a fool.

As it turns out, I'm Crystal's husband, and I *thought* we were working on our marriage.

My darling wife told me over our anniversary vacation that she wanted a divorce. Moreover, she had been wrestling with that decision for the last couple months. To me, that said she gave our "recovery" all of about 2.5~3 months before she started plotting her escape. She never really fully gave up communication with OM. In fact, she called him from the airport as we were leaving for the vacation.

And the funny thing is, I've been beating myself up for having the audacity to doubt my wife's sincerity.

I don't know where things stand on whether our M will survive. She feared that I would blow up or vow to make her life miserable. What bothered me is that she's known me for a long-long time. She knows I'm not an evil person, and that I don't exist to make her life miserable. What she didn't tell you before is that FOR YEARS she had always said that if we ever split-up, I would never see my kids again. So... is it any wonder that when in her letter, which, by the way, was chock-full-o' LB's, despite what she wants to believe, she tells me that the only way she'll be willing to stay is if I stop being me... immediately, drop everything, but not let anything drop, and satisfy her every dream, or we're through. She backed me up against a wall, and my response was to write a letter to her spelling out the unfairness of her position.

JustLearning mentioned that perhaps we hadn't thoroughly worked through the affair ramifications. That's dead on. I am fully willing to step up and do the hard work of restoring our M, but expecting EVERYTHING to change within the first 3 months and then sitting back, not contributing to the solution and using the declining situation as justification that the BS isn't worth the effort is dispicable.

Crystal said that I went back into my self-centerd mode. I suppose that's partially true. It was my last semester in law school. Bluntly, law school takes time, as does work. I told my bride at the beginning of the semester that I dropped back to the bare minimum number of credits I would need to graduate so that I would have a little more time with her, but that time was going to be tight. However, she was still top priority, and if she ever felt neglected, she should come talk to me and I would drop what I was doing and make time for her.

Did she ever do that? No.

Did I still try to set aside what time I could for her? YES. As a matter of fact, one argument we had (perhaps it started the big argument she discussed above) started when I had set aside time to be with her, but she REFUSED to turn off the TV.

Oh, and things did NOT go back to how they were. Before I did leave almost all the house-work to her. Since the A, I learned she wanted me to show my love for her in service (or that's what it appeared she wanted), so I had begun doing tons more house work, which I STILL do. Laundry, dishes, sweeping, etc. Did you see any credit for the changes I've made and kept-up with? I didn't either.

My W *WANTED* to move, and that's the only reason I applied for the bar in the other state. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to move if I knew my W would want to divorce me.

The ISTJ v. ENTP struggle she wants to portray as an insurmountable barrier to her happiness is a rouse.

I am tempted to go through her post, line by line, and demonstrate the unfairness of her comments. The fact that I am ALWAYS complimentary of her cooking, and will only occassionally make a comment (when she cooks a new dish) as to what I think might make it even better. When she mentioned that it bothered her I stopped. Of course, she has re-written our life together to make it sound like I always berate her cooking. She said that I tried to push her into careers. Wrong. I have always seen my role as being the primary provider, and have always striven to make enough money that my wife would not need to work outside the home. Nevertheless, when I started law school, I saw that with her personality and intellectual strength, she would do very well and probably enjoy learning the law, so I told her that if she ever wanted to go into law, I would fully support her. Later (when she first started planning to leave me), she indicated that she wanted to get out and make a living on her own because she wanted more adult-interaction, again I supported her. SHE brought up being a para-legal because she knows they make decent money, and I recognized that with her attention to detail, she would probably do well.

I want to save my family. I don't think we've given it a fair shake. She gets angry if I mention that recovery takes time. She responds that since the A was a symptom of deeper, pre-existing relationship problems, then the normal A recovery paradigms don't apply (i.e. time required, N/C required, radical honesty, ceasing independent behavior, etc.). Discussing what it will take to make our M one she would like to stay in is also lopsided. Because she's the one who wants to leave, she expects ALL of the changes and effort to come from me. However, if I am willing to make changes, she sees that as a sign of despiration and therefore either not sincere or not likely to be ultimately successful. The future of doom she has in her mind is unfazed by re-assessing history to correct the bases of her presumptions.

I don't know what to do.

I am scared for my kids. They don't deserve to go through the ****** she has decided is appropriate. I am determined to do whatever I can to help them, and I have no intention of making this a bloody battle. I agreed to write-up a post-nuptial division or assets contract that also addressed potential spousal support, and child custody, etc. My thought is that if she can see, in black-and-white, that her fears of my making life difficult for her should she leave were unfounded, that she won't have to jump the gun to leave. The reason I was willing to put this agreement together with her is that it lets me know what kinds of liability I am looking at going forward (worst-case) and allows me to negotiation terms that are reasonable to both of us. I am hoping that in the next couple of months she'll be able to put her fears aside long enough to see that working through the problems will provide everyone a much better result than giving up before we've really begun to work on a solution.

Pray for us.

If she's still in contact with om you do realize that it doesn't matter what measures you've gone to to improve your marriage. The addiction will cause her to distort and rationalize. One can sense her guilt in her posts as she wants out but doesn't want to deal with the pain she'll cause upon leaving. She creates demands that are unreasonable so that she can lay the blame on you. Typical affair babble...

I suggest a call to the Harleys..

TheDupe,
I suspect that she did not really want to move, herself - she was hoping you would move, and she stay behind, free to bring the OM into the marital home and the lives of your children. I think it is quite possible that this was all planned on her part, including making it look as if she were trying to make an effort to work on the marriage, in hopes that the judge would look favorably on her gaining primary physical custody. If she wants a divorce, SHE should leave, and your children should stay behind, with you. Is it still feasible for you to remain in your current state, and take the bar exam there?

Nellie2,

About the bar exam in my current state... No. It isn't feasable to take it in my current state because it's only offered 2x per year (same for every state) and every state offers the exam in February and July. The application process takes almost a month to complete in my current state and needed to be completed for LATE applicants about a month ago.

At the time my WW suggested the move, I do firmly believe she was hoping the M would work. As far as the custody thing goes, she is suggesting that I take primary custody (all school year) since it will be easier for me to afford a real home for them.

The marital home (current state) is going to be sold basically as soon as I get an offer with a firm in the new state.

FWIW, the law is kinda old, but it's fairly clear that when a spouse refuses to move with the primary bread-winner to a new location for work, the spouse who refused to leave is the one who "deserted" the marriage.

As far as this particular OM is concerned, I seriously doubt that she will want to be more than friends with him.

All that being said, she wants "freedom" to "be her own person." She says she doesn't know who she is anymore and just doesn't believe sahe can be happy in this marriage, and is not willing to live in the marriage and not be happy for the rest of her life.

She gets furious if I even suggest that her judgment may still be clouded by the Fog, especially since she still has contact with OM ("just as friends," of course), but as the saying goes, "If it quacks like a duck..." She keeps re-writing our history. On the one hand she says SHE has changed, but on the other hand she doesn't believe it is POSSIBLE that I might change in a way she would appreciate.

It continues to boggle my mind the extent to which she engages in independent behavior that is destructive to any chance of recovery without even considering that it might possibly be either painful to me, or detrimental to our chances of recovery. Of course, she DOES know that it's painful to me, which is why she tries to keep it a secret.

Today, she had an IM conversation with OM while I was at a doctor's appointment... Last night, she said she wouldn't log on because I was not studying on my computer, even though she was on hers, but she DID log on while I was at the doctor's office... Better yet, when I checked out her yahoo account (since she finally told me her password) a few min. ago, it still had the off-line message that I sent her last night, meaning, of course, that whatever IM conversation she had with OM was on an account that she hasn't disclosed to me.

I am beginning to become less than optimistic about the chances for my marriage.

Ha!

If this weren't so sad the irony would be hillarious...

Earlier today (yesterday, actually) we spoke to our counselor (who does individual sessions, primarily... so she's NOT a marriage counselor) separately.

Crystal43 totally glossed over what she's been up to (creating a secret life, again... getting back in contact w/ OM, etc.), and just discussed why her desire to leave is totally rational and logistically "do-able."

When I got in to talk to her, she basically said that since Crystal was pretending that she is blameless, there's nothing the counselor could do to help, and my best bet is to let her go, and make sure the separation is real, so that the reality of her choices starts to sink in. (Basically a Plan B, but I don't think it will be quite as clinically clean as suggested).

Anyway, when I told my lovely bride that we would finish our agreement, and she should plan on moving out by Sunday evening, she got truly p-o'd at me. I honestly don't know why... she want's out, and I'm opening the door for her, being polite, and telling her that I would be happy to work things out if she's willing to go to marital counseling with me.

I will miss her dearly, and I hope beyond hope that this will lead to eventually restoring our marriage. In any event, I know I'm doing the right thing, so I'm strangely calm with this decision.

So... in the end, she want's the divorce, I would do anything to restore the marriage, but when it comes time to actually separate, she's mad at me for agreeing to it but specifying that it needs to be real. What the [bleep] did she expect??? She wants out of the marriage, but she wants every benefit of the marriage, too. Honestly, she usually much smarter than that.

The Dupe,

Crystal wants you to move out of the house, it's not up to you to invite her to move out. What's the matter with you?

She is entitled to lie by omission to the marriage counselor and to engage in a fantasy love that endangers your marriage and your family. How can you even think of denying her the easy way out, if you truly love her?

[sarcasm over] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Bellvue that was funny. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Almost as funny as the title of this post. "how to ask for a divorce without hurting him" LMFAO

I don't normally visit this board, though I am divorcing.
You can't fathom my contempt for Crystal, Now and again you see actively adulturous spouses (sorry wayward is to kind) visit this MB site and try to justify their actions with the posters here. Looking for one more way to make themselves "feel" good at the expense of others pain. Make no mistake reading her babble is painful to Loyal Spouses, as is The Dupes attempts to work with her. You can never reach an accomodation with a liar Dupe.

You recieved tons of good replies, especially from EnlightendX and JL. Plenty of good insight. The most important one however is from JPH.



I too thought my wife wanted to reconcile, but she ran back to OM at every chance. At least it only took you three months, I was decieved for another 12 months. He was just an internet pervert. (its amazing how close a webcam can bring two people)

Crystal called from the airport to talk to OM on your anniversary. That is pretty close to the disrespect my STBX showed me on our anniversary.