TD,

I think you should change your screen name--it's a dj to yourself.

Everyone is jumping on the Crystal bashing bandwagon, and I can't argue with them. She is a current WS if she has any contact whatsoever. She knows that. As you said, she's smart.

Your post got me going though, because you keep talking about her like she's your wife. She's not. She really is in a fog, and I am posting to ask you to treat her like she is on the drug she is (which is cut with entitlement, heated with resentment and inhaled with a healthy dose of unreality). You want rehab for those you love, not jail, right?

Her behavior and words will be confusing, irritating and hurtful. My gosh, did you miss the title of her thread? That's a cry for help if there ever was one--your wife, trapped inside this WS, is flailing to get out! She doesn't want to be guilty, shameful, destructive--she wants the world to be different and not have the consequences to her actions. Those wishes aren't character flaws; she really is a mess. You vowed to love her through sickness and health...gonna do that?

You sound like a man with a mission. You like to win, to succeed (and I don't know all the INSTJ alphabet stuff, so that's not where I'm coming from)--please try not to lose your wife. Don't treat her like she's sober when she is drugged. Read up on reverse babble and know that your wife is in there, somewhere, but lying to herself and to you.

Please Plan A her before you Plan B...that doesn't mean I buy any of her grievances about you, something wrong with you. I buy Just Learning's assessment totally--but she needs you to lead her back to her own stuff. Please don't abandon her, drawing lines right now, except the carrot and the stick treatment. Then, when Plan B time arrives, she'll be able to see her self-deception instead of being blinded by her resentments (which are still her own).

Sounds like you've been reading the site materials. What do you think of all of it? And as for your counselor--well, that was lame. Yes, your WW is thinking she's blameless, which means you have no control (and you never did), but let her go? She's your wife's counselor, right?

I would really, really call the Steve Harley. Like yesterday. Get a second opinion on this critical heart matter.

When her actions/words really hit your button, remember that you have those buttons that she can push because you love her, were vulnerable and intimate with her, and she was with you. You can have it all back, and better than ever. Your kids can thrive from this. I know what I'm talking about.

LA

LovingAnyway.

That is a great screen name. Good Post.

Thanks, Tom. I was going for the Keith Kurt Paradoxical in my life...still am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your post seemed like you really related Crystal to your STBX. I react the same way to people here in such similar situations. You really feel for TD, know where he's been and fear what he might have to face, it seems to me.

I think staying compassionate, staying on the boards, is brave of you. Just wanted you to know. Stay brave.

LA

Chin up LovingAnyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA and TJ,

Thank you both for your thoughtful replies.

I understand the Fog, or at least I recognize it. I've been plan-A'ing her for about 6 months. After about 2~3 months she effectively gave up.

I've seen and recognized the unreasonable demands for a while now, though it was nice of JPH to put into words the thoughts I've been mulling in the back of my mind.

Now, to address some of what LA said directly: It would be easy for me to get my feathers ruffled over how it seems you've presumed that I'm giving up on my wife. Quite the contrary.

Although the affair-addiction is like a drug, one important distinction is that it's NOT illegal (Okay... it's still a misdemeanor in my state worth a $10 fine). It's not as if her actions are such that I could have her involuntarily committed. This is a situation where no matter how much I want her in recovery, there's not a darned thing I can do to make her get there if she doesn't want to go.

The reason the counselor and I reached the conclusion that it was time to open the door for her to walk out was that at this point she interprets EVERYTHING I do or say as a reason to split up. If I tell her I love her and don't want to go, she sees that as despiration. If I tell her, "Okay, if you want to go, then lets get to the busines of finishing the agreement and actually separate," as an attempt to kick her out of her own house and thereby manipulate her. The counselor can't do anything constructive since she can only work with what my lovely bride brings up.

Since we're at an impass as far as what we can do, the status quo only (1) hardens her resolve, and (2) weakens my emotional reserves while I attempt to remain nice and avoid LBs. The main idea that we have is to let reality be a cold splash in the face, and perhaps that will wake her up.

In short, I would gladly lead her back. I pray every night for her. I pray that God work through some things in her past that have kept her from ever understanding what it is to love and be loved. The problem with "leading her back" is that she's not on a leash. I can't pull her back from the edge. I can call to her. I can show her the way, but if she runs harder and faster whenever she sees or hears me, then the only thing left is to let her go and pray she turns around befor she destroys herself.

For what it's worth, my telling her that if we're going to separate, we need to go ahead and do so relatively cleanly and soon has gotten a STRONG reaction. Now shes saying things like "maybe I'll stick around for a good long time just to make your life [heck]." She almost begged me to divorce her so... I think she finally realized that she has no grounds against me, so no way to even try to take the kids away from me.

I think she is beginning to realize that she does, indeed, have the power to end the marriage, but if she exercises it, things will not be entirely on her terms. Perhaps with a little time, she'll grudgingly agree to counseling.

Great to know, TD...

Your "respectfully letting her go" worked...scared me, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just a question, though...am I hearing you correctly that your counselor is suggesting these things, and as they don't get the desired response, you both agree to try other things? Are you plan A'ng or manipulating? I'm not attacking you. I read Plan A as working on yourself, establishing your own boundaries and standards, habituating yourself to holding to them, and not being dependent on the results. And seeing your part in the marriage as part of the package.

You sound very present, aware and compassionate. There's a darn skinny line to changing yourself for your own betterment and for saving your marriage. The first one is not dependent on a reaction. When you say, "I love you. I want to work on our marriage. I believe in us," you are stating your truth without an eye to her response.

I read another thread where you posted that you are doing all you can so that you can respect yourself and be an example to your children, regardless of the outcome. I just wanted to be sure I understood you fully and correctly this time.

"Since we're at an impass as far as what we can do, the status quo only (1) hardens her resolve, and (2) weakens my emotional reserves while I attempt to remain nice and avoid LBs. The main idea that we have is to let reality be a cold splash in the face, and perhaps that will wake her up." This just concerns me as far as separating what you do and for what reasons, and what she does, for whatever reason.

And this really worries me "Perhaps with a little time, she'll grudgingly agree to counseling."

Could just be me. My concern is for you and for her.

LA

LA,

Thank you for the thoughtful probes...

Plan A was, basically to correct the ways I've been depleeting her love-bank. It's a giver-intensive mode. Any true Plan A that lasts longer than a couple of weeks is likely to be psychologically damaging because it totally depleets your reserves.

I implimented it rigorously to begin with, made some real and lasting changes, and my wife decided to come back and try to recover our marriage. I couldn't last at it all that long because I had some serious issues with depression when the A came out over the summer.

So, loving my wife with an open hand - that is respectfully letting her go is an acknowledgment that I cannot, for the sake of my children, my self, or my wife, allow her to take me that low again. I don't know what or how to Plan A in our current state. Not only does an attempt to meet her ENs not deposit anything in her love-bank, but it makes her want to run away.

As to whether this is "manipulation"... I would say no. I'm not trying to change my wife's mind. I am trying to conduct myself and the environmental factors that I can control so that my wife may change her own mind. I am trying to do the RIGHT thing because it is the right thing to do, but at the same time, I try to be mindful of the possible impact on her.

My nature is to look at things and assess the implications of action, and the implications of inaction. Where I cannot force a result, but I can do things to encourage an outcome that I believe to be desireable, the likelihood of the desireable result combined with the amount of influence my action provides in that direction is a factor to be considered in making an optized choice.

Where the action that may create a condition that is conducive to my wife "waking up" is also the action that is also likely to directly benefit me, then that looks like the best action to me from my perspective.

Did that make any sense?

Anyway, to address the "grudgingly" comment. It is my hope that my wife will at some point choose to go to counseling with me willingly, even if she doesn't think it will help us. If she can wish that our marriage was better to try a long-shot (counseling) even though she's not convinced it will work, it will, at least, have a chance to work. That is what I meant by "grudgingly."

May I probe some more?

"Any true Plan A that lasts longer than a couple of weeks is likely to be psychologically damaging because it totally depleets your reserves." Is this something you found on this site or a personal belief?

I had to Plan A for months. I don't feel damaged. Not my experience. In fact, I felt intense relief with Plan A. By only taking my part, respectfully stating my thoughts and feelings, I was free to "hear" my H for the first time in years. I no longer felt that awful power of causing, controlling or curing his thoughts and feelings.

When I slipped in my perspective and fell into a results-based desire again, then it got rough. I railed against it, found myself in the old, got back to the new. Not a smooth Plan A. And my love bank deposits weren't getting through, either. I hear ya.

Also, there was contact for my H--he had a coworker affair. Contact didn't end for four months. Then withdrawal for another two months. So, Plan A with intent to save my marriage for a total of six months; parts of Plan A ongoing (self care, knowing my part, boundaries, standards, etc.). I think it's a really cool plan.

What really helped sustain my effort was being told that a marriage is three parts--husband, wife and the marriage. I could honor my marriage even when my H wasn't doing his share (in my distorted thinking). It was about what I brought to it and accepting him as he was and is.

"allow her to take me that low again." This concerns me as I read that to mean that you believe she has the ability to do that. Are you referring to the depression? How did you feel depression, if you don't mind me asking. In my experience, depression is a subjective feeling and it varies.

Had you experienced depression before in your life?

"My nature is to look at things and assess the implications of action, and the implications of inaction. Where I cannot force a result, but I can do things to encourage an outcome that I believe to be desireable, the likelihood of the desireable result combined with the amount of influence my action provides in that direction is a factor to be considered in making an optized choice."

Plain speaking...my opinion is that this is manipulation. Where you cannot force a result? Where does your power end? You can influence with your honesty, but not force a result in a person. The optimized choice is doing your best with yourself and respecting others' choices. Containing your reactive nature and acting according to your code. Attempting to fill your wife's love bank because you want to demonstrate your love is optimal. Filling it to get what you want, in my opinion, is not.

Could be I'm so off base I can't see it. Your wife has all the conditions appropriate for recognizing she has choices and that she makes them each moment.

Did she send a no contact letter that you read and agreed with? I know she's broken contact repeatedly. You said she views her OP as "just friends." I take it that meant she didn't agree to no contact, just no affair anymore?

Gotta say, that "open hand" bothers me, too. What would a closed hand mean?

I appreciate you posting.

LA

No Problem...

The limitation to an all-out Plan A was something I read somewhere on this site or in some other Harley book mixed with my experience. Basically the comment that I read said that you do your best to meet your spouse's ENs for a time, but if he/she does not realize that what's at home is better than OP, then while you still had the emotional strength to lovingly separate, that's what you do... so that the last thing your spouse remembers is your kindness even in the separation.

Perhaps our meaning of "Plan A" is somewhat at odds.

When I spoke of depression, I meant the real, clinical kind. I was hospitalized twice over the summer for it. I had not experienced any depression that intense previously, however as I began being treated, I learned that a serious medical condition I had as a teenager probably started the ball rolling that direction. I just didn't know that other people didn't feel the same way when I was 15.

Do I believe that my wife has "that power" over me?... yes and no. I'm vulnerable to a certain extent because I love her. If a stranger said the things she's said to me lately, I wouldn't care, but from her, I do care. My recovery from depression has given me a lot more tools, but also a lot more self-respect. I am more capable of shrugging off her verbal assaults than I ever have been. I almost think that this frustrates her, because she's used to being able to "put me in my place." She could because, in my long-term low-level depression, I accepted the blame and whatever insults anyone had for me because I didn't believe I deserved any better.

When I spoke of "forcing a result" I was speaking in technical terms... because my pre-law background is technical. Think of it this way... Wal-Mart cannot FORCE you to buy anything from them, however, they can create an attractive store with plenty of parking, well trained employees, and plenty of selections at very competitive prices. End result... lots of people DO choose to buy from them. In the same way, when I speak of trying using what control I do have on myself and my environment, that's conceptually similar to designing an attractive store and stocking it well and with competitive pricing.

As for the open-hand / closed-hand discussion... I think you may be overthinking it. A closed-hand type of approach would be to directly try to force her to do what I want. Order her to stay, or beg her. Try to manipulate her through guilt. Threaten to fall into a depression if she leaves, etc.

By contrast, an open-hand aproach respects her choices and autonomy. When I make an argument, I own my own opinions, and I don't snap at her for having her own. The open-handed aproach says that if she is going to leave, I cannot and will not try to make her stay. I can only give her her freedom, and treat her respecfully and out of love even as I say good bye. An open hand will be a more inviting sight when/if she turns around to contemplate a return, than a closed one.

To quickly answer your question about the NC letter. She did send a NC letter shortly after D-Day. Then, as the withdral hit, all heck broke lose, she shreaded me till I ended up in the hospital the second time and she started right back up contacting OM. After about a month I got her to agree to a "true" NC. But that only lasted till she got tired of working on the marriage (about 2 months) and then she needed "closure." "Closure" was a chance to yell at him until she felt better and they could work through their issues, apparently. Now, she will not agree to give up contact with OM, though she vows that she's not interested in him "that way" and the A is over.

She's recalcitrant, and the only thing I can think of is to let her go and hope that as reality sets in, she'll turn around.

Sounds like 2005 was an intense growing time for you. You've learned so much so fast. An emotional bootcamp. I'm glad you found out about the depression, that you're lovable and whole, just as you are, not for what you do. That was huge for me, also.

I'm compelled to post to you again. There's something here I need to face for myself, but I can't see it yet. Hence, the appreciation for your replies.

It was interesting how you answered my questions. I read your response as clarification of your statements. You took care with your explanations. Did you restate to put them in what you believed was a more comprehensible form fo rme? I see that as a kindness in you. A lot of effort and carefulness. Earnest and sincere.

And I'm not uncomfortable with the way you state your truth, either. I believe I got it the first time. Feels like my own when I reach for it.

Is it my own projection here, I wonder? Something is off. I'm truly concerned...is that why I feel my questions were not understood?

LA

2005... intense? Yeah, I guess you could say that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for your kind words about how I responded to you. At heart, I guess I've got a lot of my mother's "teacher" qualities, which makes communicating understanding like this something I enjoy. I hope this will translate into an ability to bring a Jury or panel of appellate judges along with me, but we shall see. My wife often sees it as arrogant know-it-all-ism. My wife thinks I like to hear myself talk, but really I try (probably too hard) to be very precise and accurate with what I say, which means that sometimes I don't speak (or write) as concisely as I should.

I guess I don't really get what you're asking with your most recent post. I reframed the questions in a way I thought would facilitate an answer that went to what I believed was the essence of your question. Perhaps I was wrong. Also, I forgot the special codes to create quotes, and was replying from the quick-reply box...

Anyway, you said there was something here you need to face for yourself, but you can't see it yet. Then you said that something is off and that you're concerned. I don't understand. Are you saying that you're seeing something in my replys that indicates an unspoken issue that you believe to be especially important? Is it that you perceive some essential truth that you feel may be applicable in your life but it isn't clear yet? Or is it something entirely different?

I do get that you enjoy sharing what you know--the teacher influence. Part of what bothers me is that I didn't feel I needed the Wal-Mart explanation because I got you the first time. What I get is the feeling of being talked down to (and I wonder what grades your mother taught), but I have to check myself first on that. Could be the very care with which you answer gives me that childlike feeling. And the not being understood.

When I asked about the open hand, I was still challenging you to look at your analogy more closely, as well as the manipulation issue. What I heard you say was that being results-dependent is fine with you; it's the way to a goal of getting what you want. I guess what my concern is that we just have two different beliefs. That's cool, if that's the case.

Except that you seem to be saying you believe the same, but then in your descriptive portions, you do the opposite. I don't know. Maybe it is that essential belief difference.

Feeling inferior is an old habit for me. However, I've been told I am condescending at times. That really gave me a headspin for awhile, until I figured out that a great defense against inferiority is assumptive reasoning. When someone disagreed with me, I pretended that they just hadn't understood me--that I hadn't explained enough. I didn't respect them to have gotten it the first time and to be actually disagreeing with me. I found that it was an offensive defense on my part. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think that's what I'm seeing here, in your posts. Assumptions are lethal to relationships...all of them; marital, parental, coworkers. Maybe even juries. Although, juris prudence has those two things I'm working on at its core--presumption and judgment. LOL

And your desire to be solid in front of a jury--I want that to be great for you. Maybe this helps both of us.

This same defensive reaction was why I interrupted a lot, to quickly clarify so the conversation could continue. I was always suspect that I wasn't being understand and my entire goal was to be understood so that I could be judged adequately. Another part was that I found myself saying, "You already told me that," quite a bit. My insecurity made me vigilant--a memory bank with verbatim on the door. Now I realize that I my memory was imperfect because it contained all my assumptions as well as actualities. Huh.

This does help me a lot. When I post here, I lean back into that leathery comfort feeling because I fear, not being misunderstood, but plain out wrong. I fear doing more damage to anyone. I slip into that disrespectful (and skewed perspective) mindset again, because I can't just pull out the feeling, the whole package comes with it.

That also explains why I had the strong urge to be casual, anti-formal, even hokey; I wouldn't be in my old element that way.

So, do you think I understand your belief on manipulation better and am just not respecting it?

LA

Respecting it, I think...

It may be that I don't understand "manipulation" the same way that you do. I wouldn't say that I'm results-dependent as much as results-cognizant. Having a desired outcome in-mind and as a factor in how I conduct myself doesn't strike me as manipulative if the manner and attitude of my behavior respects the other's ability to choose. On the contrary, it is precisely BECAUSE the other has the ability to choose that I must accomodate. I see attempts to be manipulative as those actions which tend (or try) to limit the choices of another or take away their ability to make a free choice altogether.

I didn't think that you and I were on the same page, and so the Wal-Mart example was my attempt to show you where I draw the line and how I was defining my term.

I'm sorry that I made you feel talked-down-to. I guess my attempts at thoroughness look more like treating you like a child from the receiving end. That wasn't my intention.

Perhaps you and I have much in common. I have no doubt that I learned many communication quirks while I was unaware that I was slipping into depression that became habits. Thank you for pointing that out for me.

"Manipulate" has nothing to do with results orientation. Most of the synonyms for manipulate, according to Merriam-Webster's online dictionary, have to do with being sneaky or dishonest. I would contend that many of those who claim they are making changes to improve themselves and aren't really concerned about whether these changes will increase the probability of the WS returning to the marriage are not being truthful, and are, therefore, being manipulative.

My point is not to argue for my belief as the only one in wrestling what is manipulation. I don't see how the synonyms sneaky or dishonest prohibit the results-based theory, but rather reinforces it to me.

I'm attempting to explore changing myself so that my actions are to my own code, not results dependent. I like how TD (ssooooooo gotta change that name <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) said results-cognizant. See, all that I've been learning, thanks to this site, in my head clicks and a light goes on. Putting that light into action, thoroughly, has been a challenge. In order to have an affair, I had to be very deceitful and manipulative. Getting the other end of it, finding MB, and seeing where my true control ends--the whole Plan A was for many reasons. Yes, to get my WH to return to the marriage. Also, to find my power, myself, so that if WS didn't come back, I could be on my own and okay. And also, to atone, to amend. I don't believe there's ever one answer to what I do.

So, in looking how my beliefs manifest in my words and actions, something about TD set off bells. Even you saying "I'm sorry that I made you feel talked-down-to," makes a sound in my head. You didn't make me feel inferior, TD. You can't, unless I allow you to inside of me. Doesn't work that way. I can react that way to you without you so much as breathing, if that is my perspective to begin with.

I appreciate your apology and believe your intent is never to do that. Mine isn't when I do it.

Seeing the difference between influence, which we all have, and manipulation is proving difficult for me. There's a lot of lessons I think I need to learn. I still see Wal-Mart as results-based, therefore, manipulative. Help me see an additional standard to view this, so that I can really see where influence ends and manipulation begins.

My learning process usually goes like this--everything is gray, then shapes form slowly, then I see black and white solidly, and try to find the gray in between. I'm not a great student, but a diligent one.

"I see attempts to be manipulative as those actions which tend (or try) to limit the choices of another or take away their ability to make a free choice altogether." I'm reading this as my old selfish demands, "If you don't do this, then I won't do that...or will do that." Is that correct? Stripped down, though, it doesn't really limit my spouses choices, if he is holding to his own code of conduct. The choices I make (okay, threats, to be picky <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) wouldn't affect his decision. I'm not getting how to take away someone's ability to make a free choice altogether. I'm not arguing that, either. I know we're not talking physical imprisonment.

This is important to me because I find it difficult to see if my beliefs are really in my actions and words, or if I am stuck again, believing one thing and doing another from under-the-radar habit.

LA

I was duped... Thoroughly Duped by a wife who feigned interest in recovery... But now that I know of her deception, staying committed to my Marriage (when it would be sooooo easy to throw up my hands in despair) has Tested my Devotion, and continues to do so... So, I have changed my screen-name.

Anyway, I guess it's silly for me to give advice. Lately I feel as if whatever I say, you should do the exact opposite.

My sense of frustration with my marriage aside, I think a good way of looking at manipulation is contemplating how you might try to assure that you get a person to do what YOU want them to do... The array of options at your disposal range from blackmail, to overt deception, to witholding material information (when the other must trust you to disclose), etc. All of these tools are designed to take away the other's ability to make a free and informed decision, or to make the choice you do not want too costly for the other to make. Manipulation is the act of, effectively, turning the other into a tool (i.e. something that is manipulated) to get what you want.

Influence, on the other-hand respects the other. Or at least respects the autonomy of the other.

When I said I'm "results-cognizant" I'm just being honest. Anyone who says that they try to avoid thinking of the results is either trying to fool you, fool themselves, or is just a fool. Look at your "code" of honorable conduct, and contemplate WHY the rules are what they are... EVERY volitional action or interaction is FOR a reason.

I'm results cognizant because I KNOW that I want something out of virtually every interaction. For example, I post here, because I WANT the feedback from the collective wisdom of the community. My desires are as legitimate as anyone elses, and so it would be disrespectful and damaging to constantly subordinate what I want to the whims of others.

I guess that Dr. Harley might say this has to do with the ol' Giver versus Taker thing. A sort of psychological pressure valve release is to recognize that you HAVE a Taker and if you let your Giver offend it too often, it will rise up and take over and then take you down the route of manipulation because the Taker does not respect the other one bit.

I don't know if that was clear, but it was something. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I LOVE your new name.

And the continuity...

Hi, TD!

Devotion. Perfect.

You and Nellie already helped me out. This was so on my mind that when my H and I did our communication exercise tonight, I talked about it. My H handed me an important distinction that you bring out in your last post. He said, "Manipulation carries intent; influence does not."

I believe that to mean that as humans, we have influence...an interaction by-product that exists naturally. Manipulation is the choice to act/speak with intent.

Like your Plan A--your devotion--you are exampling with influence, but not with the intent to make your wife change. Am I close? Am I getting there?

Please don't hate me for not seeing blackmail as a limitation of choices. I get the overt deception and withholding material information--that would definitely limit someone's choices because it limits their knowledge.

Excellent point. And all results-based with intent, I must add.

:::ducking:::

I needed to be reminded of those very real actions limiting another's ability to choose. See, I get to the other side of something and still have a mountain at my back, blocking my new view. I do the 180 from sick and still end up sick. I'm groping for the middle.

"Look at your "code" of honorable conduct, and contemplate WHY the rules are what they are... EVERY volitional action or interaction is FOR a reason." I'm looking...I'm looking.

I do have a results-based intent to sticking to my code. I want the result to be that I don't feel I betrayed myself; I want my self-respect intact, aligned with my code, but letting go of my expectations for what the other person does.

Getting there is more difficult than figuring out that part. I want to keep to my own results, not others'. I think. I might be so far off because what comes to mind is that I desire my intent to be pure. If I have intent at all, am I self-manipulating? (Did I mention my imbred ability for crazy making? Did I?)

"I'm just being honest." When I hear someone say this I have the hard urge to pipe up, "Hey, I'm being honest, too!" I don't think you're questioning my honesty. I hope you didn't think I questioned yours.

I was results-based before. I wasn't results-cognizant before. I am working to clarify this to myself so that I won't be unconsciously results-based now. I was really disrespectful to everyone in my life, for all my life. I had no idea I was disrespectful. How can an extreme people pleaser be disrespectful? I didn't know what respect meant. You said it really well--respectful of others' autonomy. That nails it. I didn't do that. I don't want to not be aware of that. I'm probably taking this too far in the other direction; I've been known to flee the scene of my crime.

You were exceptionally clear. You've added another important part of my picture--the Taker doesn't consider anyone else. That fits with my problem of the 180 solution...going all Giver or all Taker and no balance inbetween. I've been examining what that balance might look like so I could get there.

Part of that balance is noticing my Taker through it's footprints...my lovebusters were: angry outbursts (my Taker's entitlement solution), (check!); disrespectful judgments (false power and security--I judge therefore I am) (check!); fueled by my resentment (that I created myself through my choices) (check!); selfish demands is what I fear the most because those were the last trick in my bag of manipulation. Whatever I turned on my H, I did also to myself. Tricky business for me.

As for my annoying habits; well, you're experiencing one.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA