While my W, a SAHM, didn't have your typical A, she also suffers from severe depression and has had several breakdowns over our 10+ year marriage. The last breakdown was prefaced with her telling me of an "incident" that occured between her and an old friend (not sure what they were in the past) while we we heading to another city for our anniv. I got held back a day and she went out without me and she met up with the OM for lunch and dinner... and GUESS WHAT HAPPENED!? Boy, were we both grossly naive.

How could that not have happened after she had had 10+ years of unresolved emotions for this person? This was an EA more than a PA but during that trip, it became a PA.. just one incident and you would not believe how our lives have changed.

Anyway, on the day she told me of the A (9 months later), she suffered severe paranoia (it had been brewing for months) and I took her to hosp. only to leave the same day with her being somewhat ok. Her MD gave her ADs, then took herself off (BAD MOVE) and then, while I'm still trying to recover from the A, and only a few weeks afterwards, she has another very serious breakdown that lands her in a psych clinic for 4 days. Are you feeling my pain yet?

4 days in the hosp., I've got (3) kids and an executive-level position to maintain and all for what? The A or her depression?? Someone please tell me which it is! PLEASE! If it's for the Depression, then I'm there.. in sickness and in health, right.. but did she funk herself over withdrawal from the OM? He that ****** really worth a 12 year marriage and the mental health of 3 beautiful children? I just need to know if he's in her head or her heart. If her heart, then I can't live with it. If her head, then I'm willing to help her with it, as painful as it is for me.

So my S gets out of hosp. and is now in therapy and on meds (probably AD for life) and things were fine for a few weeks and this week she's not sleeping and waking up at 2-3am each night, something that used to occur quite often but hasn't since she got out of the hosp. Following a therapy session, she calls me crying and tells me she's thinking about the OM and that regardless of what they were, she loved him,wanted to marry him, they were friends... blah, blah, blah.. and I'm like.. ok.. but now what? If you want to be with him, go be with him. WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY?? GO.. be happy.. just give me peace. I deserve peace. I've truly done nothing. She says it's not about me at all and that I deserve better. Is that the bad mind talking or her heart?

Now, here are my questions that I so desperately need answers to. We start couple therapy in two weeks and hopefully, this will all be worked through but I see that I can hit the masses with this forum. I'm hoping there are some succcess stories out there that deal with Depression and A and EA and PA..

1) Does she get a pass for the A, be it a one time PA plus a EA of longing for the entire marriage, all because she has probably been depressed her entire life and had a really messed up childhood? She says she loves me and doesn't see a life without me but should I stand for her keeping the OM in her heart? or.. he he just a symbol of some kind that she needs to hold on to, part of her deluision/depression? Does anyone actually ever have someone's heart 100%? Am I asking for too much?

2) I'm not sure if my recent needs for affection were always there but I feel as if we're not affectionate except for sex, which ironically, both of us would say was ALWAYS great up until recently. Go figure. Could be the meds or she still harbors some guilt over the whole thing, but now she can't reach orgasm, something she did 100% of the time for the entire time I've know her. Punishing herself? I think she thinks God is.. .

3) After all this, she still wrestles with lost hopes, lost dreams and with this "connection" to the OM. Mind you she tells me that they NEVER actually had sex (he's impotent or something) and that the A/incident was only oral (him to her). Not that the details matter, but sex is sex right? And cheating is cheating. She also tells me that she wanted it, to express herself, to feel good but never says how the OM felt about it? Does it matter? God, those words cut like a knife.. She wanted to express herself at the expense of a 12 year marriage and 3 small children? Is that absurd? Is that the Depression or the gross selfishness of an abused inner child. SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THAT IS?? Immaturity? Heart or Mind?

4) Is all this bad stuf simply a result of her carrying the guilt of the A AND the EA of 10+ years (not a true EA since they only started emailing and chatting a year prior to the PA) but I know for a fact that she had feelings unresolved for the entire marriage. A fact she doesn't deny. Is this guilt or depression or both? I also know that she has been depressed for most of her life. We both know that now. She says since childhood.

5) Should I stay married, if my needs for affection are not met and if she continues to harbor feelings for the OM, even if it may be delusional and part of her mental illness? Is that a cop out for what it really is? She loved him and he never loved her or it just didn't work out? Whatever. Can I make her not feel something? Would our marriage not be a lie if I stayed, if only for the kids? Could I spend 20+ years with her for the kids at the expense of my soul being ripped out in grief and sadness? Sshould I suck it up?

6) Will the kids suffer that much if we break nicely and they don't see anger and pain during the split ? God, they are all I feel for.. so innocent and so loving.. having to be witness to nervous breakdowns, arguments and shouting over infidelity.. and lack of affection.. they know something is wrong. Children FEEL things like animals feel a storm coming.. they are sensitve. I love them so much and they deserve so much more. I get so angry over that.

Anyway.. I know there's a lot here but I would greatly appreciate any advice from anyone that has suffered with something as complicated as this.
An A with plus mental illness (depression) plus an EA, even if one-sided (her to him. He never called her) S gets mad when I say the EA was/is a delusion and a fantasy and merely represents a symbol of something in her, unresolved. An avoidant that she can't have.. Co-dependent since he suppposedly also suffered abuse of sorts as a child. I don't care what it is. She's married and you can't have both! I can't live with that. She must let him go or we can;t survive. How do I make her understand that I'm serious? Seperate? Let's see what comes out of the couples therapy. God, I hope the therapist is the right person for us... if not.. my life will change because of it.

I want my wife, I want my children and I want my family.. Is that too much to ask for? I feel so angry and hopeless sometimes.. I cry out of the blue and started having panic attacks after 12 years of remission. My life is 100% fine outside of this. Friends, works, life, God.. it's all good...

Please SHARE if you have life experience. I know someone has or is going through something similar. In this society, how could they not. Hopefully, they read this board.

Thanks and God bless all of you for your strength and courage. We are all here seeking help and recover for ourselves, ur unions and probably for our children.. a NOBLE cause indeed....

Thank you.

Waterman
There are no easy answers to theses questions. But I will attempt to help in my own small way. I think the depression contributed to the A but that is only an underlying problem. Some of her breakdowns are related to her guilt or having the affair and also not being able to continue it. I think she may be in a position where she is stuggling with what she knows is right (to work on her marriage) and her addiction to OM. An affair is a powerful addiction don't let anyone fool you. It is a good thing that she calls you and tells you what is happening. Right now you need to support her even when you don't feel like it avoid LB's at all cost it only makes it worse.
Get your wife to write a NC letter and mail it for her. Expose to OM wife if he has one. This will help to take the shine off the penny. Get some of the books suggested her HN/HN and the affair book. I wish that I had a cure for this for you but seeing as how my marriage is a mess and only getting messier. These are things I would have done for my H had he been willing to reconcile instead of diving into his fantasy head first. I hope this helps

Hello, Waterman. Welcome to MB. Under the circumstances this is one of the best places you can be.

The overall answer to your questions is that healing takes time. A lot of it. The average is two years (I know, makes your stomach fall to the floor). It also takes hard work on the part of both people and a commitment from each that they want the marriage to work.

I'll try to address some of your concerns, drawing from my own experience and also the experience of others on the board.


Your W's mental health aspects are of great concern to me. As a long-term sufferer or depression I can certainly relate. As a person with several family members who are bi-polar, I am also concerned that your wife's health providers seriously consider that diagnosis and rule it out. I say this because some of the brief descriptions you have given here hint at more than depression (which in and of itself is a bummer to begin with). Please read as much as you can on bipolar disorder and see if any of it matches up with your wife's behavior. If it does, talk with her doctors.


Oftentimes the wayward spouse rewrites the entire history of the marriage, making every year since the first a trip through ****** for them and this is news to the betrayed spouse. It doesn't mean a whole lot right now.


Unfortunately, most of us on this board can easily believe how much your life has changed. You are on the rollercoaster. Strap yourself in tightly and hang on to the bar!


I understand what you are saying here: if it is her mental health causing her to make these decisions, you're in for the long haul. If she just really wants this turkey then you want to explore other options.

There is no easy answer here and, in fact, it might be a mix of both. Your wife may have deluded herself into thinking there is more to her relationship with OM than there really is. It could be a product of her sick mind, or her sick emotions or both. It is too early to tell. And even if it turns out that she just always really wanted this guy and regretted marrying you from day 1 (which I don't believe is true) there is still hope for your marriage.



Again, read up on bipolar disorder. Losing sleep, or not sleeping at all, is a hallmark symptom of the manic side of the disorder.


Withdrawal really puts us BS's over the edge. We want our WS automatically to disengage from the OP, turn their "love" to rabid hate for that person, and fall into our arms telling us how sorry they are and how they plan to make it up to us.

Save it for the soap operas. The fact is that your wife has nursed a whole life with this OP for some time (weeks or years, it really doesn't matter) and she has to grieve the loss of that crutch. She may truly want your marriage to survive while she still wants to be with her "soulmate" (yeah, the one who never calls HER). It takes time for the WS to cut the strings that bound them to the OP and see the relationship for what it truly was. Hang tough. It's hard on you now, but it will be even harder on her when the dawn starts to break through. Then she will really need you.


Most affairs are not about the BS. They are all about the WS getting something that they want. Is it her illness talking or her heart? Again, it is too early to know and she might not have the answer for you for some time.


Her crappy childhood could be a key to a lot of this. I am glad you are getting counseling. But, no, she doesn't get a "pass." Can you forgive her? Yes, and you must, but the reasons the affair happened must all be brought to light and sorted through or it can happen again down the road.


You only want what every one of us wants: a happy marriage and stable family life. Try this on for size: when she says she can't see life without you in it she is telling the truth. On the other hand, she just as truly feels she needs OM in her life. What tips the balance? YOU DO. The way you support her and love her while she goes through all this crap will ultimately swing her pendulum in your direction. Do you have the intestinal fortitude to hang in there while she goes back and forth for a while? Only you can answer that. But I would advise you to hang in there as long as you are sure there is no communication between your wife and OM. Insist on complete ending of the relationship.


This is a can of worms. Definitely, anti-depressant meds can make one dysfunctional sexually. Your wife should talk to her doctor about this. I had to "shop around" a bit to find one that worked to relieve my symptoms but didn't render me unable to enjoy sex. It took some time. (There's that dreaded "T" word again!).


She still wrestles with all of this because she is still sorting it all out. This is where you get to be the shining example of what real love looks like, which will cause her to pause and draw the obvious comparison between what you offer her and what she THOUGHT she had with OM. That is how PLAN A works. Have you read up on that on this site? Please do so. As for being selfish and risking her family and long-term marriage.... adultery is the definition of selfishness. But one can become unselfish and feel quite a bit of amazement at what they did while in their selfish state. Don't give up on her.


Counseling is the only way you will be able to answer these questions. There are simply too many variables in your situation to know for sure, right now, what prompted this whole mess. It will take, you guessed it, TIME.



I think you should stay married for now as you sort through everything with her. She married you. If she did it just to be married, she'll have to figure that out with help. If she didn't, she needs to rediscover all the reasons she said "I Do" in the first place. You have no control over what she feels and you can't make her change. These things are in her control. All you can do is watch the choices she makes and then make your choices based on hers.

Staying together for the children is not a bad thing, IMHO. It doesn't make your marriage a lie. Should you "suck it up"? Yes, for now. It's called PLAN A. But you don't do this forever. You need to give it time to see the dynamics of your marriage change to your liking. If they don't then you can think about other options. The Harleys (who authored this site) say to give two years to make sure a spouse who has left the home is going to be gone for good. At this point, a time limit would be counterproductive. Just know that at some point you can always make a different choice. For now, choose to be the faithful, supporting, if very confused and hurt husband.


Most studies have shown that divorce affects children in severe ways and affects their self-perception well into adulthood. Make it a last resort, for their sake. They also need you because their mom is unstable. Never allow them to be in danger but also think of what they will learn about commitment and caring as you and your wife work to save your marriage and help your wife to a saner life?


Don't say this to her.... let her come to her own conclusions through counseling. If she asks your opinion, give it in a non-love busting way, but otherwise, work on meeting her needs and letting her know what your needs are, too.


This is the absolute truth. But separating will not make her see how serious you are. Plan A will show her you are willing to change and stand by her. That is far more impressive. And she must let go. But not on your timetable, necessarily. She has to do this herself, with your help and support.


Tell her this... that you WANT her. That you want to be the husband she wants and needs. That you love your children. That you're afraid of these panic attacks and you need her to be there for you, too. This is the stuff of which intimacy is made. It's called being transparent. It hurts like ****** sometimes because as the saying goes, the truth hurts. But telling the truth always leads to honest resolution of a problem.

Hope this helps. I don't look in very often these days, but I hope that something I have posted here will help you have courage.

~ Snow

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waterman,
I posted my feedback on the other thread (a duplicate with the exception of 'In Plan A NOW' in the subject line) you opened if you are interested. That was a quick decision or perhaps I misunderstood what you want.




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And I quote you, waterman:
"We start couple therapy in two weeks and hopefully, this will all be worked through ... "

There's the answer.

thank you all!

I mentioned the NC letter and she jumped all over it, only she wanted to include how he hurt her and all this other stuff!? I explained to S that the letter was for me, the BS, and that it was a way for her to show me a committment to end the EA. She asked how he would know if he ever read it and didn't want to make it a last communicado so we agreed it wasn't good timing right now.. she also wants to learn more about MB.

What is she sees my posts? Should I care?

With that said, are we still in Plan A? Must she send the NC letter per MB rules or can it be customized? I know it shouldn't be open ended. Nothing's easy, is it? I actually did send the OM an email requesting that he not communicate with my wife, which she was orginally very upset about but as of tonight, after I told her what I said, felt respect for me since I questioned his values and motives and if he knew that I had faciliated her seeing him and that she needed closure. Tonight was great progress since I've changed... I know that I must change things since I can't make her change. It works!!! I know it works! I don't get angry over any of it. I have her.. I have the upper hand.. and I have the ability to let her realize what she has in me.. He has nothing to show her. I will remove LUs from her LB if I can help it, especially when it comes to the OM. I told her that. She wants me to share some of the insight here but I'm afraid to show her my posts.. now.. maybe I will just cut and paste some excerpts..

You asked me if she ever had to go through day-to-day trials and tribulations with this OM, ever? Pertaining to maintaining a long-term relationship, raising children, maintaining/establishing and running a household, child-rearing, etc.???

HUH, let's see.... they never actually went out as boyfriend and girlfriend. they worked together. She like him and I suspect he avoided her because he had a girlfriend. They never actually had sex since he's impotent or something but "they were friends" and he slept over her house once or twice. She could talk with him for hours.. he was tortured as a child just like she was... blah, blah, blah.. like my childhood was a friggin' picnic... P-lease....

I suspect she had a crush on him and he blew her off or used her as a sounding board for problems that he couldn't share with his girlfriend at the time (go figure) and he may have been engaged or something to another girl. My S was vunerable and insecure from her own abuses as a child and you know the rest.. it's right out of the books. ****** hath no fury.... as a women scorned... only this women may have had depression and mental illness back then and somehow, the feelings (and scorn) for the OM manifested themselves into some sort of symbol, an addiction, or something.. Do I keep blaming the mental illness or is that wrong? Could it have innocently been her heart and not her mind? A young women's crush? If so, then I think I can somehow live with that as well as a compasionate spouse but I can't live with it NOW, after 12 years or marriage and 3 children and the fact the they never spoke for over 10 years. How could a "ghost" have so much power over us and our relationship when she has so much love right here in front of her!!??

Oh.. and there's one more tidbit I forgot to add in my initial post.. I facilitated my S hooking up with the OM in a certain way. I found his email address for her.. and condoned her talking with him since she had always told me she needed "closure" to whatever it was that they had. It was always about "closure"... So silly me goes and books our annual anniversary trip to the same town that the OM lives in so we could have our trip and so she could see him ... Was I dumb or what?

I had also read some journals/diaries over the years and saw entries in there about her feelings for him. WHAT WAS I THINKING?? How she wanted him to just be her friend.. how she wanted to be validated.... there goes that avoidant, co-dependent stuff again.... I know she also found him attractive.. her type, if you will... whatever....

She also told me tonight that the PA (one incident) was a MISTAKE and that she feels as if she blew a chance for some sort of relationship. with him I explained to her that with the PA or not, the EA was also wrong, period and that all contact must stop, absolutely. She agreed but started to cry. I truly feels that she feels that the marriage and the children/family are the priority but she's wrestling with letting go.. it's the classic withdrawal and she knows she's in the "fog".. I called it that and she looked at me like it meant something to her. She's never been her but it obviously fits... it is a fog..

Finally, she told me that during one of those sleepness nights recently, that she actually felt like letting go of her feelings for the OM!! She said she felt sick and like vomiting.. and your comments about addiction resonated in my head when she said that.. Was that a Good sign? Is she heading toward the light? Will she let go soon?

She removed his email address from her contacts shortly before the last BIG breakdown, which I suspect was the start of the withdrawal and it's been almost 10 weeks. How long could a WS feel withdrawal? Did I read two years or was that my pain??

Thanks again.. You have truly given me tremdous HOPE.. more than I've felt in 3 months!! Thank you for that.

waterman,
sadly, it gives me some comfort in knowing someone else is going through what i'm going through. i guess misery truly does love company. my wife had 3 affairs in the past months. one of which she had strong feelings for. ever since i found out, i've been too busy dealing with her depression and issues to focus on my own healing. she denies loving this guy but i found a letter she wrote to him on her computer. in short, she confessed her love for him and wished he'd return the feelings. she claims it was all bs and that she was just playing games with him. she just wanted to see if she could make him fall in love with her. very sick. she admitted to me the other day that she does not truly feel guilty for what she has done. she knows she should but for some reason she doesn't. i'm praying that it is a sickness that is causing her to think this way and not because she just doesn't care. i find myself needing more affection from her than ever. the only times i feel a little bit secure is when she is hugging me. unfortunately she never seems to be in the mood to be affectionate anymore. we went to marriage counseling and the therapist thinks my wife has borderline personality disorder. i did some research, and if the therapist is right, our future looks grim. i feel like i am alone in trying to make this marriage work. my wife claims she wants it to work but i have yet to see any effort put forth.

i know the pain you are going through. it consumes most of my day and i imagine it's doing the same with you. lets hope our wives get better in their minds so that they may focus on their marriage and family.

i am not religious but i will pray for you.

I'm am not religious either but recently found some solice and peace in reading spiritual-type things..quotes, etc.. about life and love.. it helps, if at all it keeps you positive and strong

Don't know if you have kids, but if not, that should make it a little less volatile, but not any less painful and scary..

This heart vs. mind thing will reveal itself. I feel 80% that this will work out and she will come to grips with that this OM means to her.. 20% scares the ****** out of me.. for the kids.. not for me.. I could be happy alone or dating other people.. seriously.. I need so much more than this in a women but I'm in this with her since I made a committment. She didn't really cheat on me per say. She had feelings for this person since before she met me and they never got resolved and came out during her depression.. so they could be linked.. she could also actually love this guy but what does that mean? she's going to leave a 12-year marriage, a loving husband who provides VERY well and a great father for her children.. I don't think so.. the resolution of this matter may come down to what I'm willing to accept as far as what % of her heart. Does any S have 100% of their S's heart or do we all harbor some feeling for past lovers... friends... she keeps saying friends.. adn validated as a friend.. Fact is, I suspect he treated her like ******, which is classic for her condition and feeling now.. addiction to avoidant and all that psycho [censored]..

Hang in there.. If no kids, don't sweat it.. you sound young...

PS - You a Viacom guy? I was back in the day.. Ping me offline if you want to continue with more details... thrak5@yahoo.com

Peace Brother and Stay Strong.. All will be revealed.. and what's meant to be wil be... right??

waterman,

Has your wife read the ebook at www.aftertheaffair.net? It has a section on NC and what a NC should and shouldn't say with the reasoning for what NOT to included and the responisbility to show respect to the BS and not the OM. I know their approach really helped when it came time to put my marriage back together and get rid of the OW. Sometimes it helps to have a neutral party tell your spouse what is and isn't okay - it takes you off the hook so to speak.

I agree that divorce is always a last resort - there have been lots of new studies showeing that a marraige has to be knock-down drag-out abuse before the benefits of sepeartion outweigh the benefits of an intact marriage. Be sure to check on the bi-polar aspects like the other poster suggested and hold her accountable to get treatment. Her behavior is abusive towards you and she has no right to abuse you in the name of her depression. Lots of people have bad childhoods, but at some point she has to commit to the childhoods of the children she chose to give birth to.

I will say a prayer for your family.

Thank you. I'm not sure if I'm giving her a pass for her actions more than she is asking for one in the name of depression.. She is clinically diagnosed with it and it IS a real disease that affects the mind and behaviour...

Point taken on the other childhoods.. but she is a great mind and one of her (our) mantras throughout this ordeal has been "the children must come first"..

Yeah, I bought the eBook and I think she got 1/2 way through it before she had the MAJOR breakdown which landed her in a psych hosp. for 4 days, ..
I think admitting to the incident was too much for her so she cracked the day she told me, then I made her read an ebook on how bad she is and all while she's going through the addiction of the OM and breaking it (WS Withdrawal) .

She wants to break it. She knows she must for us and our family.. and she knows now that it's a root cause of her suffering.. .We're close.. I know it.
But it's an addiction.. The OM is 2000 miles away and I know she has not contacted him, at least to the best of my monitoring abilities.. I believe her. She said it would not be good for her to contact him now anyway..
Her suffering is taking it's course right from the MB journals and I'm thankful ffor that. When I changed my perspective on the situation, the situation changed.

Thanks for sharing and God bless you and yours as well.

CORRECTION: she is a great mom...

The mind.. well.... ;-)

waterman,

my apologies for being snarky on the other thread. I didn't know you'd posted these, they sounded very different. Lesson to self- "Self, always check everything a poster has written before responding to something".

Your situation is soooo much like mine, man. She comes from a very traumatic background, but doesn't clinically suffer (she's checked multiple times). She WANTS to make us work, but her addicted/guilty heart isn't really in it, and she keeps carrying on with the OM (EA only, but still in the state where she blows off talking to me grossly in his favor).

Stay strong.

NP Weakslave.. We're all in this together and can only help each other...

Stay the course.. I'm a firm believer in fate and what's meant to be.. I know it may be counter-intuitive to your religious background.. but some things are out of our control in the the hands of some other force.. well.. I guess that concept is religious after all, isn't it..

Good luck with everything.

Curious, I know ultimatums are a no-no, but what if you told her that the EA is killing the marriage and that you can't live with it? What does/would she say?

Also, I see no children are involved.. From my perspective, that makes your decisions and timeframe a little different, no? You're young and could start again... not that you want to.. I don't know.. I'm rambling.. sorry..

Good luck...

NIckatNITE?

Did you get my mail from Yahoo?

Just curious.

Thanks Waterman. Though you're not deliberately religious, you have the gift of being able to trust rather than despair. Many religious folk would love to have that gift. Treasure it!

I've told her explicitly that the EA is strangling the marriage, and I haven't backed from that position. But I haven't given the "I can't live with it" ultimatum yet. I'm currently vacillating between attempting a protracted plan A, and giving up and going to plan B. It's a hope/despair trial of sorts.

Her mother was single, bipolar. Childhood horribly difficult in places. Some sexual abuse. She fears deeply that she will become like her mother, and has checked with psychologists to see if she is bipolar or not. Her mother's abusive swings have necessitated her keeping her at a distance for most of life--a hard reality, and she is proud of how strong and self-informed she's been through it. Yet, at the same time, it's helped her develop a self-myth of "the longsuffering noble endurer of all wrongs and expert on human relations", which has crippled her ability to relate to people in an enduring, trusting way. It's also made her arrogant.

Therefore, she not only furiously refuses to acknowledge the depth of the EA or its crippling impact on our future prospects, she's actually PROUD of how much she's told me about the OM, PROUD that she's "admitted" they "email a lot", PROUD that he's been such a good buddy and given her great marital advice FOR OUR SAKE, etc etc etc.

Less than zero empathy over how humiliated I feel about it, less than zero realization of how humiliated SHE would feel if I were doing the same to her.

There are occasional glimpses of the lost little girl who just wants to love and trust me. It's heartbreaking.

But given the brazenness and loss of respect, it almost makes me think that plan B is the only rational course at this point. I'd love to work on myself, and gain more self-respect, but my paradigm of marriage is one in which the partners are "one person" in terms of how they build up each other, show mercy to each other, etc. I can't force her to share that paradigm, but I can communicate how important it is by what I do.

I can live and be happy without her. As crazy as it sounds, I can also trust that our 4-year old son will be taken care of no matter what happens. Even if she marries the other man. I'm just not sure if SHE can survive a plan B without something in her heart dying forever. It'd be a leap of trust at this point to go on to plan B.

Thank you... Why do you say I trust? Do I sound vunerable in my posts? I'm hopefull. that's all.. things aren't that bad and she's not contacting OM and she made a (1) night mistake that she suffered greatly for.. Landed her [censored] in a psych ward for 4 days.. real stuff man... it's the 12 years of her longing and fantasy that I wrestle with now and her desire to have him in her life as something,, to fill that hole that I suspect no one can fill.. not even God has recently... I question whether my recent requirment for affection would have occured had she not had the fling.. or lost her mind.. I wasn't alway this needy on the afffection front since the sex was and always has been great..
I just need more now because I'm hurt and scared.. wah, wah, wah.. we know that.. but I see how she shows her love.. it's just different than my way.. therapy will help with that... I hope and pray we will have resolution.. there are 3 small lives involved that must not be affected by this, at any cost.. but the marriage can not be a lie either.. you know? tough call when kids involved.. limited options....

irony life presents... that her issues, caused or fueled by poor parenting, is now potentially threatening her children's development and future outlook on life, love, relationships, trust, etc... I tell you this.. the kids have NOT suffered a thing.. we love them so much and tell them 100 times a day.. we also both have never fought around them.. well maybe once or twice badly.. but they have witnessed nothing... consciously anyway.. they must know mommy is "sad".. or "off", in their own little way.. scares me... but they could have it worse.. trust me... lot of love here in spite of this current mess... lot of love... and security..

man.. I feel your frsutration.. and perceived hopelessness.. It's not hopeless..

you just need to be patient and think out of the box... and maybe get some professional help for yourself.. change your perspective.. change your reality.. since you know you really can never change hers.. it's almost like the more you don't want her to, she wants to.. right?... immature indeed.... self serving prophecy also with the mother having her issues.. my W's mother is mental, had a REAL affair (1.5 years), and is cold as the day is long.. ignorant foreigner on top of that.. thank God my W has a brain.. it's the heart I'm looking for.... ;-)

get a professional opinion and seek all you can and make a quantitative decision.. Your heart will ultimately tell you what to do... and fate...

Peace Bro..

I say "trust" because you said you believed in fate. For the religious, fate is embodied personally, for the areligious it's more an impersonal force, which explains why the word "trust" can seem kinda wierd... but either way you believe things will work out. That's the opposite of despair!

We've been seeing a counselor for almost 3 years, on and off. I've been seeing her a LOT the last few weeks.

Amazing how identical some of these principles are, but how differently they get applied due to different circumstances. I'm a professional licensed mariner--gone exactly half the year, home the other half (and doting on my family like crazy when I'm home). That's a big factor in what's going on. In her bitter moments in the past, she's compared the absences to "separation with part time custody", which indicates she's emotionally cut many of the strings from her side already. I'm working with a woman with preexisting withdrawal issues.

BTW, her biggest complaint is that the absences restrict our communication/affection level in an insurmountable way--i.e. that e-mails just don't suffice. Yet- her EA was started and carried on to complete fruition over NOTHING BUT EMAIL AND TEXT MESSAGING! Not even any voice calls! I pointed this hypocrisy out to her and I know it rankled her mightily. I also pointed out that I'm doing real, paid psych sessions with our counselor over Instant Messenger from out here at sea, and it works great. Oooh, she scampered like a rat to rationalize THAT ONE away!

She also projects all her instincts on me (actually, on everybody she meets). For example, she resents my vocation because she just can't understand how I could be away from my boy for stretches at a time. She's a WOMAN for pete's sake, that's called MATERNAL INSTINCT, and guys dont' have it. We're not MOTHERS, we're FATHERS. We TEACH, DISCIPLINE, and FORGIVE. When I'm home, I am openly huggy, kissy, and spend lots of wonderful time with my beloved little boy. In short, it bothers HER, not him! I can lay with him in his bed and chat about him regarding what I do, ask him if he can WAIT, teach him TRUST that I will ALWAYS come back home in a few weeks, and he's happy as a clam with our talks. But she wants to project herself onto everything.

Does she really need a psychological "baseball bat upside the head"? Yes, she deserves it. But there are other ways. The more her bitterness comes out in the things she says and does, it'll wear on her. It may be that I need her to reach the breaking point on her own, rather than try to force the journey.

Only reason plan B should happen is if I'm not strong enough to endure the lack of love. And I wouldn't be ashamed of that if it comes to it. We marry EXACTLY because we NEED love. When it's not forthcoming, sometimes drastic measures have to be taken. I'm don't believe in eternal stoicism; I think we can act on our emotions justifiably as long as we exercise self-control.

We'll see.

peace

Zeno was a boob!!

Hang tough....