Hi, I'm new so bear with me.

We're having serious issues.
Immediate need is financial - our mortgage.
My husband has shut down. I've tried being understanding & seeing things from his point of view. Encouraged him to talk to who ever he feels comfortable with ie-his sisters.
He spent the weekend with them & came home. No discussion, nothing. If no action is taken we will loose our house & he says nothing to me about it (only idle chit chat).

I told him that I have been offered the money for 3 payments. It will give us a chance to get things in order & decide what to do without it being forclosed on!
He doesn't want to take it.
I absolutely hate to do things without his agreement
and I understand that it maybe his pride that's in the way.
But my name is on that mortgage too!
I see no other way. This loan is without strings and can be repaid whenever (years down the road if necessary).
He just won't talk to me. I've been understand, patient, stayed back & given space. A month has gone by & he's taken not one step towards helping this situation.

I know he is disappointed that he can't do it all but sitting back & doing nothing isn't working!

Is there anyway to bring him to see that help is just that help & not a shot to his abilities (EGO)??

OMG!!!

I was just reading a little & saw a post about
verbally abusive relationships. I feel so validified to know that it's not just me with a spouse like this.
I've always felt that it was a form of manipulation.
It makes me so angry inside that I want to kick him in the groin! sorry guys!
It's the most frustrating thing in my life.
We've know each other our whole lives & been friends.
The minute we were married he stopped telling me things.
Now it's coming down to serious consequences.
How do I stop this???

Tialynn,

Is the money from a legitimate supportive source or one your H has issues with? If you had those three months paid, what things could you get in order to prohibit it from happening again? Are those things you both previously discussed and wished for?

I applaud you with honoring your H in decisions and caring for his state of mind.

Are you usually the one to save things? The one who gets things done?

I want to ask...how does your H feel about that, but I would imagine, he's not telling you.

I was surprised, also, to realize how destructive withdrawal (that's what I call the non-communicating) of my H could be, and that it was considered abusive. It felt like punishment to me--the silent treatment (my sister was great at that, in fact, still is). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have you heard of pursuer/withdrawer relationships? A dance of back and forth. My H says when he felt slighted or neglected, he would withdraw, knowing that I would pursue, and he would feel back in control. I would overcommunicate (okay, he called it nagging for attention), hounding and begging. The last time he withdrew, I didn't pursue and I didn't withdraw. I kept doing what I was doing, and waited. It was so disconcerting for my H that he broke his non-speak with, "I don't even know who I am." And I nodded. It's how I felt when I wasn't pursuing.

Sounds like you had intimacy as friends who fell in-love. You've known each other all your lives. But you haven't known his secret self? The one that he didn't want you to see...the one that can fail, freeze, deny and fall down?

Sounds like you will feel great shame if you lose your house. Have you told him you'll go down with the ship or with him? He has a fear of not being in control of his life. If he could only agree to take the loan by holding deep resentment, anger, self-hatred...would you take it?

If recent events have been overwhelming, would antidepressants be considered? Talking to someone as a counselor at church, together? Are you maybe asking yourself why would you be with a man who would do this?

If he is filled with shame and cannot speak it, would you be as angry than if he was withdrawn from spite?

You can't make anyone do anything. I learned that the hard way. You just make your own choices by carefully examining all that you know from him to this point and what your priorities are in this life (the costs of your expectations).

My prayers are with your family.

LA

Get the Patricia Evans book "The verbally abusive relationship, how to recognize it and respond".

If you can't afford it, email me, and I will send you a copy. Or AIM me.

My W and I credit this book in saving our marriage. Good stuff.

Thanks for the replies.

LA- The loan is from a very supportive source and one that will not broadcast it either. It can be repaid when ever. I really think they would rather it be a gift but understand the need for us to feel we can pay it back.

I have been the most supportive person in the world during this as always. Don't take that as I think I'm perfect. Far from it. I have worked very hard not to blame him for any thing, take my share of the responsiblilty, offer to give up everything if need be, reassured how I feel about him, that I'm not disappointed in him, that I don't care what others think, mentioned counseling, you name it.
All I get is "I don't know what I want". UGH!!!

Please remember I gave him 3 wks before even approaching him. It's not unusual for him to get upset with work.
I figured it would pass. Nope! He was extremely withdrawn with ME! Hunky dory appearances in public.
I begged him to talk to me. Nothing.
That's when I started searching & found this site.
I read about just going along & acting as if you were happy as a clam. VERY hard to do. I had already nearly exploded in side and ended up at the docs with soaring blood pressure & on temporary meds. :-( But I tried.
I still got almost no reponse & time for saving our home is getting short.

I just don't think it's fair to be manipulated & loose what I have without trying. He just won't make any decisions.

I heard a wonderful quote a long time ago.
"A marriage is never 50/50. It's one person giving 70 the other giving 30 or even one giving 90 to the other's 10."

I just feel that he is overwhelmed, etc. I understand that. I am too but you can't sit around forever.
I really believe that counseling or some of the things we can do ourselves would be great for us.
But it's important to preserve what we have even if it's just temporary. Loosing very thing we have will only serve to push us further apart.
I've ran through every scenerio in my head. Even thinking that this might be his way of getting out of the marriage.
I just don't know.
Accepting the loan will give him time to get things straightened out at his current job or find another one.
I'm ok with either. Even if we have to sell the house later it won't be the same as loosing it and having no where to go.

Last night I was prepared to fight my battle if necessary.
He came in & said hello, gave me a kiss & long hug.
I almost fainted. It's the first sign of real affection in nearly a month. I said in a quiet voice "that was nice".
Then tried to act normal.
Well see if it's a true break through.

Thanks for all the prayers,
Tialynn

Tialynn,

Thank you for updating and showing yourself so candidly. Did you take Jaye up on his offer? I would. To see Mr. Mathisen posting is like the most welcome cool breeze on a hot day. That book changed my life, also. And I discussed it with my H and sons (all teens to early to 20's) for their relationships, as well. After all the modeling they've seen in our house, I thought they should know there are other ways, also.

His demonstration of a cherish kiss and long hug (that's what I call those...the affection that stays and feels like part of the moment and not just a chore on a list to quickly check off). I take that to mean that you've been doing in your supportive way is building some trust in him that had nothing to do with you--old stuff. How-far-will-you-go-to-love-me stuff. And he's feeling it and letting you in. But what do I know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"All I get is "I don't know what I want". UGH!!!"

I feel your frustration. What are you going to do? Sounds like time is truly running out. It sounds like you are going to take the loan/gift.

"Please remember I gave him 3 wks before even approaching him. It's not unusual for him to get upset with work.
I figured it would pass. Nope! He was extremely withdrawn with ME! Hunky dory appearances in public.
I begged him to talk to me. Nothing."

It's not unusual for him to get upset with work? I figured it would pass? Maybe you could help me with that...when my H withdraws, he mostly says it's work problems. I tried the letting it pass for years and I worried where it got me. Now I tell him, "When you withdraw from me about something else, I don't feel like I'm a priority in your life." It doesn't help much, but I feel a touch of self-respect for saying it. I credit our weekly communication exercises for drastically shortening his withdrawal time. It averages a couple days now instead of weeks.

Did you see the Harley's Policy of Joint Agreement? Could this matter with the house, be poja'd in any way? I would imagine the one thing that could not that agreement off the table would be silence.

Being as full of effort as you have been, have you looked him in the eye and told him how you feel? All that you just wrote here? That his unwillingness to communicate has you feeling frustrated, scared, fighting alone, and a lower priority? I bet you have. You sound very thorough.

That didn't sound like I meant it. Thorough love feels like real love to me. It's what was demonstrated for me as a child. Effort = love. I'm not sure I believe that anymore, or I have more than one childish definition of love now.

I'm rambling, sorry. I still feel a lot of assumptions in your replies (assumptions are really our only line of communication, it seems, when our S doesn't talk). Have you asked him if he wants out of the marriage? Have you asked him if he's depressed? I hated all the digging over the years because I was dependent on the results. Now I ask to know I didn't assume. That's it. And what did you think about that marriage quote...you called it wonderful. It seems to be missing a critical clause...that though this will be marriage, each spouse gives up and down at different times. If it is always one way, it's not a marriage. No rule of protection, radical honesty. Also, my H thought he was the 60 of the marriage when I was thinking he was 10. I don't think it's a wonderful quote at all.

How is your self-respect in your marriage? Resentments? Do you grade yourself? Do you accept yourself like you do him?

LA

Are you guys saying that "the silent treatment" is a form of verbal abuse? I am not talking about just saying little, when there is a problem. I am talking about my husband not saying one single word, when I am calmly trying to resolve a problem serious enough to end our marriage.

Hi, inhymn

Glad this thread caught your eye. Have you read "The Verbally Abusive Relationship?" I highly recommend it. At least the part that says what she considers abusive. Strong term, eh? Had to be strong to finally get through to me.

Yes, silence, non-responsive, is a form of abuse. Surprisingly, so is "forgetting" and other items we're not taught are bad, just human. Unless...

Have you felt unheard, that your reality wasn't worth it because your H is not telling you what he thinks? Or that he thinks there is a problem at all? Kinda twisted my reality around when my H did this--like 15 years worth. I felt reduced and crazy. I felt like I had the problem, was a whiner, complainer and he was the good man. The one who wasn't being petty. Ever feel like that?

When we live with abuse, our reality keeps being denied and changed by our spouses. They withdraw, hold secrets, feel power by not reacting. Conflict avoiders believe they are being kind and generous by not sharing their feelings, not reacting. What they are not being is intimate and honest.

Have you been practicing no Love Busters? Really understanding what disrespectful judgments are? How to communicate with I-statements about your thoughts and feelings?

I'm here to tell you it all works--fantastically. First, I had to make myself safe for H to begin responding--and taking his DJ's and AO's when they finally emerged and respectfully, lovingly being conscious of them, for both of us. In one year, he can spot when I slip or he does...but I don't lose sight that he's responding verbally. Still has that passive-aggressive thing, but he can see it now.

So, take hope, inhymn...the serious problem that could end your marriage, can it be put on hold until you get to where you can just see your dance with H and change your rhythm?

Thank you again for posting.

LA

Can someone help me with some advise?

I have been the verbally and emotionally abusive husband for 15 years. I came from very abusive parents (who were raised in Eastern Europe) and came to believe that it was a way of life. We've been married for 18 years and we have 6 children, ages 16, 15, 13, 10, 8 and 6.
My behavior changed almost over night when my first daughter was born. Now I was a father and assumed the duties of fatherhood as I had learned from my father.

But I have taken ownership for my actions. I finally agreed to go for counseling and I have been in therapy since March 2005, and my wife and I go together sometimes. I have learned a lot about myself and why I behaved the way I did. I've done a lot of damage to my marriage and wish I could undo what I have done.
I want to rebuild my marriage and believe we have a chance.

My problem is that my wife is not sure if she wants to continue with the marriage. I still live at home but she is sleeping in another room, and we barely speak to each other. She has asked for time and space to be her own person. She wants to "co-exist peacefully" as she put it. I'm trying very hard to comply with her wishes. But the problem is the kids. They are happy with the "new" changes in Dad, and don't understand why Mom is still being so distant and unresponsive to the affection that Dad is showing her. Mom changed her behavior in March and has been very distant and cold since then. Before March, Mom has tried to be very affectionate and tried to hold the marriage together.
It really got bad last Friday night when 4 of the kids were yelling at Mom and saying things like "why can't you say I Love You to dad"? and "you go right over there and tell him you love him".

I love my children and want to be with them and my wife always. How do I convince my wife to give me a fair chance? And how do I convince her to read all the info on the Marriage Builders website? I really believe that Dr. Harley's program can help us, if she gives it a chance.

Thanks for listening!

LovingAway: Man, you must have ESP. You described the situation to a "T". Sadly, I have read a lot of Dr. Harley's helps, but my husband refuses. He said there is nothing wrong with him (or his abusive family). After 15 years, I just can't take it any longer. The worst part about it is that anyone looking at me (or us) would think he is a perfect spouse.

1. He makes good money. He takes good care of his family financially. We don't live beyond our means. We don't argue about money.
2.I know no one knows absolutely for sure but I would bet my life that he has never cheated on me. I know I have never (and would never) cheat on him.
3. We are still physically attractive to each other even after all these years except for this foundation flaw.

To the outside world, we are perfect....and yet we could not be more broken.

He has never trusted another living soul in his entire 45 years of living ... except his mother, father and brother and those are the 3 people he should trust the least. They have used him all his life.

1.His mother will tell you real quick that his brother is her favorite. All my husband's life he was treated like a step child.
2.His father set the example of lying to his mother to avoid conflict.
3. His father was never the provider or protector of his mother. He never protected his wife from his family's abuse.
4. As a result, his mother grew into a bitter, resentful woman who brags how she has "put up with her husband" for 50 years....while browbeating him 24/7. His woman critizes her husband constantly and berates him to anyone who will listen.
5. His mother also is a total and complete control freak. She does not want daughter -in- laws but she couldn't figure out how to get grandchildren without them. So now that her two sons are married, she has done everything in her power to exclude and alienate their wives. Her goal was to have her sons and grandchildren around without having the daughter in laws to bother with.
6. I can honestly say in the 15 years I have known my MIL, she has never said one single kind word about anyone. I promise I am not making this up. Her life revolves around criticizing everyone in sight. Family, friends, fellow church members, neighbors.etc. I have never heard a kind word about any of them....but she is really quick to tell you exactly what each and every one of them has done wrong.
7. My MIL's own mother had 6 months to live and my MIL refused to talk to her or see her. Why? Because grandmother wasn't doing exactly what my MIL wanted her to do.

This is the kind of role model my husband was raised with and sees absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Sadly, I only dated him a year, 6 months before we were married and I wasn't around his family enough to see how they really were. To the outside world, they all look peachy and wonderful church going folk.

They don't know what the word boundary means. A perfect example is when I was pregnant with our first child. She changed the surgeon to assist on my Csection without my permission. (She ran the OBGYN office that I used.) The doctors she wanted to do the C Section were not the doctors I wanted. She knew it and she knew why. That did not matter. Of course, the doctors had no idea. They assumed she was speaking for me. She wanted the same doctor that had delivered her son. He has a very nice man, but he had quit practicing the OB part years ago. He only did the GYN part. (women know what I am talking about) He was to old for the operating room. Imagine my shock, when he walked into my CSection and told me he was there by my request.
Sadly, there were complications. Our son is autistic and we have no idea if his lack of ability (due to his old age) was a contributing factor or not. But MIL had worked for them for 35 years, they had no idea she would be lying about it. The doctors never even mentioned the change to me. Needless to say, my husband defended her which set the pattern for our entire marriage.

Anyway, I did not mean to write a book. My husband can't be help because he refuses to think anything is wrong. He is only 45, so he can start a whole new life. I am over 50. I can honestly say, I won't ever marry again.

I too think Dr Harley would make the difference...but my husband won't give it a chance.

Thank again for listening.

This is for both of you, Walt and inhymn...

I could be way off base, but it appears to me you're both struggling with the same thing--an uncooperative spouse. Walt, seems like you're saying you changed, but too late, for your wife. Inhymn, seems like you're saying your husband refuses to change.

I know the despair in that perspective. Walt, before I changed, I moved my H into a separate room. To me, it was a harsh AO that I regretted. A SD, like so many others, I took to extremes. I was full of resentments. Inhymn? Are you full of resentment?

When I wanted someone to believe in my pain, I would tell of awful things my H had done to me. I wanted to pinpoint a resentment I was holding with a 100-watt bulb. Somewhere in me I believed that if someone else would say, "Oh, my! That's awful!" I'd feel so much better. Instead it deepened my resentment. I tried storing, nourishing, coaxing and culling incidents I felt resentful of--and I was full of them.

Instead of this abating the pain, a new feeling was born fully formed--entitlement. I began using words like "I deserve better," "I've suffered too long." "No one knows the abuse I've endured."

Even when someone finally said, "That's awful" I found out it wasn't enough. I wanted my H to say that. I wanted my H to see my pain, feel it and be sorry for it. To change. I was entitled to that change.

I say all this to ask you both to stop for a moment and breathe. Take in the air deeply, know that so many others do feel what you've felt and are feeling. There are so many heart-stabs to loving someone, but I found the only way through it was to own that resentment--I created it. I kept it. It's mine.

Walt--you're owning many years. You're in a miserable circumstance for the last 9 months of giving birth to a new you, but I believe some of that misery is coming from new and old resentments. You're on dangerous ground. I hear you saying your heavy shame over past actions, acknowledging they are unerasable. What I don't hear is how awesome you feel about seeing yourself boldly and taking action. Finding your core stuff and understanding the whys and forgiving yourself for them. I don't see you scratching your head jovially, with a "You're sure missing out on a new awesome H!" I see the sharp pain of a continually failed expectation. I see it transmitted through your children. There's more here. You've gone down layers, but there's something else under this.

Remember that educating your W is a DJ. The shoulds you might say, or the if-only-you-woulds are shadows of disrespectful judgments. On this site, you'll take your own education further, from what you've been doing wrong to how to do it right. It's not as small of a step as it appears.

Inhymn, I know you hear others saying you guys look like a great couple--strong, good basics and all broken inside. Others say this. They look to compliment, even stretch the truth. What they think does not matter. Except as a tool you might have used to hide it from yourself. I appreciate that you led with this point, because that was the part that I made myself crazy with, also. If we're doing so well, then where is all this pain coming from?

I need some more info (and love that you're here, posting, so much). Before you take any action, have you read these books? His Needs Her Needs by Dr. Harley; The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman; The Verbally Abusive Relationship; The Seven Principles of Marriage; and the Dance of Anger?

I may sound crazy to you both, but I would like you to journey to the immense love of your spouses that's under the anger, pain and resentments. Getting in touch with that is your own journey. I had to go through a long, chronilogical list of resentments before I could see they were my own creations. I was only able to do that after I really comprehended my love for my H.

I'm not saying that you guys aren't or haven't been loving your spouses correctly--I don't believe there's a correct way (Harley's come closest!). I do believe what we three share is not loving ourselves healthily, owning our souls and not just our actions. From doing this, what is within our control, we come to a truer perspective of our lives and our spouses. Then from there? Change.

I guess I'll take this parallel theory a bit farther...risk a question: Walt, do you think there's a possibility your wife is having an EA (might be in her head or not) since last February? Inhymn, are you in anyway feeling like getting out, getting someone better, someone to replace your H?

Grateful for all you share,
LA

and lash out. But not any more. After 15 years, all that anger has just turned to sadness. I finally learned I was only hurting myself and giving my husband an excuse to use (what I have learned from this board) is a weapon of silence.

Yes, there is a long listof offenses that my MIL inflicted. Since there were complications at our son's birth, he was sent immediately to Pediatric ICU. They did not know if he would live. I had a CSection, so I was awake and was concerned when they rushed our son of the the delivery room. But my husband walked out of the OR (as they were stitching me up) and came back about 15 minutes later saying everything was fine. He told me they just wanted to take a chest xray of our son in the hallway. No hint that our son could be dying. It was about 2AM by this time. (The C Section had been a middle of the night emergency)

My husband stayed in the room with me that night. We woke up about 7AM and chatted. He left about 8AM to go get himself some breakfast. At 9AM, I was expecting them to bring our son to me to nurse. (because I did not know anything was wrong) When they didn't, I thought that they were just letting me sleep since the surgery had been so late at night. My husband came back for a couple of hours and then he ran to do some errands and let me rest.

At 1PM, they still did not bring our son to nurse. I was just about the call the nursery and find out what was going on, when our son's doctor walked in. He said " the meds are working...looks like your son is out of the woods, although he will be in Ped ICU for awhile and we have to talk about the long term complications." Imagine my shock....when I asked...what do you mean, "out of the woods". The doctor was amazed that I had no idea of my son's condition.

At 2PM, when my husband got back. I asked him what was going on. The bottom line is that my MIL had convinced him (in 15 minutes) that I did not need to know about the serious nature of our son's condition. She convinced him there was no need to "worry me". All the while, she was in Ped ICU the whole time....telling the nurses what she thought needed to be done. I mean after all...she was an office manager for an OBGYN for 35 years. She certainly knew more than the doctors and nurses. (You get the idea)

I tell you all this story to convey the depth at which my husband is controlled my his mother. At the time, my husband was 32 years old.

All my life, I have been a very private person. In fact, I finally told my bestfriend what was really going on last year (after 15 years of constant crap like this). She was shocked to say the least. We were discussing the options.

I never told anyone, because I don't need anyone to validate the abuse I have endured. I have tried to years to get my husband to go to counseling, because I realize that it is his job to stop his mother...not mine. And he can not protect his family from something he will not acknowledge.

I did buy my husband a book recommended on this board called Toxic Parenting. But it did no good. The only thing he underlined was a few sentences that he said showed what I was doing wrong.

We have always lived several hours from them, so the distance helped me tolerate the garbage.

As the years progressed, I just stood up for myself more and more (since it was obvious that he wasn't going to do it). But each time I had to do that, I lost that much more respect for my husband. The more I stood up for myself, the less my MIL wanted to be around us...so that worked out well.

3 years ago, my MIL pulled "the stunt that broke the camel
s back" and I said no more. The details are not important, but it was sufficient for me to finally draw the line. She thought it she did something bad enough that I would finally give her what she wanted....my husband and son without me being around.

I told my husband that if he would not set clear boundaries and demand his mother abide my them, that we would not be around them.

Well, I guess I should have done that years ago because when I forced him to send his mother a detailed letter calling her on her actions and setting the boundaries, she went ballistic. Of course, hubby wanted to immediately back down but I said no. After about a year of mot seeing them face to face (only phone calls, emails and letters)...they moved and did not give us their forwarding address or phone number. That was 2 years ago.

And of course, my husband blames me for "losing his family". His only sibling was the "favorite brother" who would never disagree with his mother (because he is now 42 and still financially dependent on her). So, of course, communitation with him is gone as well...because every email or phone call was blasting my husband and I about how wrong we were. I refused to live like that.

We stay in touch with aunts and uncles. I have not said anything about the situation to them, although I know they have gotten an earful from my MIL. If they try to bring up the subject, I just change it. They all live 7 - 10 hours away, so again...it is usually just phone calls, letters and emails. I keep it light and cheery when I talk to them. I concentrate the conversation on our life today, not the past. I did have one aunt that pushed pretty hard and I finally told her "listen, I learned a long time ago that if someone will "talk to you" (gossip) they will "talk about you" (gossip) and that I just don't do that. She backed off.

I will get that book on Abuse because, while I felt he was using his silence as a weapon, I did not know if I was just being overly sensitive.

As for "someone to replace him"...no way. Never again. I am blessed in so many ways. I have plenty of money and can take care of myself and my son. My son is one of the reasons I have not already left. My son adores his father and I just have not been able to justify disupting my son's "family life". Thankfully my husband has been traveling much of this past year, so that has really helped.

Although I talked with my bestfriend last year, with my husband already gone so much of the time since then, I have not felt the need to make an immediate decision.

My son is a special needs child and will always be dependent on us to some extent. I am working to make him as independent as possible and I don't want to do anything that would interfere with that. I have set up a trust fund for him so that his basic expenses (rent, food, utilities)would be paid...so whatever little job he gets will be just for play money.

Like I said, I am so blessed in so many ways. It isn't like I am being beaten or have some alcoholic spouse that drinks all the rent money. Things could be far worse.

Like any normal person, I want the best for myself. But what is best for my son comes first. I think finally talking to my bestfriend last year really helped put everything in perspective. She helped me chart my priorities. And to be perfectly honest....being "happy" isn't at the top of the list. That doesn't mean I have given up. I have changed in so many ways. I don't get angry and blame or plead any more. I take one day at a time and try to make it the best I can for myself and my son. I changed, maybe one day my husband will too. But I am no longer depending on that to happen.

As I have read through these boards, it is amazing to see how much I have learned. It is a very complicated process and rarely black or white. I do thank all those who have taken the time to share their experiences and listen to mine.

I've also learned a lot. And I want to thank LA for all of her advise.
An answer to your question, I'm pretty sure W is having an EA. Even the kids can see the change in her behavior when he's around. He's from our church and we see him every week. We have coffee and cake after services and he's always hanging around my W. Would I be wrong if I asked him to stay away from us? Should I confront him? I'm pretty sure he's aware of our situation. My W tells her sisters everything we do. And they also speak to other people.
What should I do?

Dear inhymn,

I love reading your posts. Thank you for sharing it with me. You sound as if you are very conscious with your life and have detached from being reactive and miserable. Like you've taken charge of your life, for your son and for yourself. Yes, I would imagine it helps that your H travelled a lot this year. I really look forward to hearing what you think of the book.

Super great to hear about not looking to replace him. You seem to be into great things for yourself and your son, like you're taking all of what has happened and finding your joy daily. And you don't seem impulsive, rather very considerate and careful.

I take it that your H does not do the silent treatment on son?

LA

Dear Walt,

Wow...maybe you could have led with that bit of info?

So you're aware of an inappropriate relationship. What you believe would be an EA. And you asked if it would be wrong to ask him not to speak/be around your wife. Hmmm.

I know you know the answer to that one. Lemme ask you, how long have you had a membership in Conflict Avoiders of America? I'm not mocking--my H couldn't see how if he was a CA that he could be abusive. That's how he didn't see his behavior for 15 years. He believed that if you kept your mouth shut and your head down, you were safe from harming and being harmed.

Is that something that rings a bell? See, he did harm...both emotionally and verbally--he's as great at the three-point joke shot as he is with the one-sentence zingers. But only if you "made" him do it. I can see him saying what you did "I'm trying very hard to comply with her wishes."

If you believe you can feel safe and loved by complying with her desires (to co-exist peacefully but not in a married way); please believe me, you can't. What your wife is saying is that you meet her EN of family commitment and financial support, and probably some others. That's not a marriage. She wants no intimacy--knowing your goals, thoughts and desires--just peace to make up for 15 years. That's what she's telling herself. But what she wants is the attention, honesty, intimacy from this other fellow--because she holds no resentment for him (yet).

I bet you guys think I'm obsessed with resentment and tie everything into it, huh? You might have a point. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I know that when anger settles down into sadness, that's grieving talk. A letting go because it's not in your control to do otherwise. For that to work, I would think you would have to erect a wall for present and future intimacy to protect yourself from having fresh resentments.

Walt? Every day you haven't LB'd or abused, you've made an amends for your previous behavior. Every day for the rest of your life, even if you love reclaiming your self (before your parents) in the process, each time you love gently and respectfully, it counts. You do not owe your wife anything else...you do not owe her an EA, a co-existence instead of a marriage, nor the risk to yourself by piling in more resentments because of her disrespect (not talking, having the appearance of marriage through routines but not the actual marriage).

Why? Why not allow this self-flagellation to continue until one morning you wake up and say, "My debt is paid." What happens then, Walt, when your debt is paid and you don't owe her anymore repayments? What will you feel then? How will this co-existence feel? And what does it example to your children?

Both you and inhymn have wished that your spouses would give Dr Harley's program a chance. That's exactly what I was passionately wishing a year ago. My H didn't. But we're recovering well. How? Because I did the work for myself, just like you did, Walt (albeit kicking and screaming until March). Plan A is what you need, Walt. Do the EN questionnaire on your wife for yourself--identify the needs you fill well and those that were most starved. Feed those ENs, and hold yourself to them. Honesty and Openness? Be honest with "I" statements. Don't tell her what she's doing--tell how you feel by her silence, her desire of a peaceful co-existence, that you believe she changes around this OM.

Tell her you love her and want to protect your marriage--rebuild, redeem and re-joy it. Court her, not with a heart full of guilt and shame, but the one that owns, loves and is strong enough to face her anger, resentment, rejection and talk about it. Listen to her if she'll speak. Actively listen. And know that the man she might be viewing in her mind's eye is the old self you were, not who you are now. Don't argue it--example it.

Don't avoid conflict for whatever reason. Ask her how she feels and what she believes. And yes, Walt, please ask with a fresh mind, no assumptions (from all the years) and see her new today. See her for who she is now and what's she's doing and not all the scars she bears from you.

Does she talk with this OM other than on Sundays after services? By phone? Email? IM? Have you asked her back to your bedroom, to share it as husband and wife?

Is OM married?

LA

"Both you and inhymn have wished that your spouses would give Dr Harley's program a chance. That's exactly what I was passionately wishing a year ago. My H didn't. But we're recovering well. How? Because I did the work for myself, just like you did, Walt (albeit kicking and screaming until March). Plan A is what you need, Walt. Do the EN questionnaire on your wife for yourself--identify the needs you fill well and those that were most starved. Feed those ENs, and hold yourself to them. Honesty and Openness? Be honest with "I" statements. Don't tell her what she's doing--tell how you feel by her silence, her desire of a peaceful co-existence, that you believe she changes around this OM.

Tell her you love her and want to protect your marriage--rebuild, redeem and re-joy it. Court her, not with a heart full of guilt and shame, but the one that owns, loves and is strong enough to face her anger, resentment, rejection and talk about it. Listen to her if she'll speak. Actively listen. And know that the man she might be viewing in her mind's eye is the old self you were, not who you are now. Don't argue it--example it."


My husband is going to be on vacation for 2 weeks starting mext Monday. I have already started laying the ground work.

The human side of me is screaming..."wait ia minute, he is the one who refuses to protect me and uses the Weapson of Silence....why I am worrying about what HE wants???" That question is hard to answer right now...so most of this is going to done by faith on my part that it is for MY best interest (and the best interest of my family).

Thanks for the direction...

Inhymn,

Thank you for keeping with the thread. Yu say that your human side is screaming...have you read all of Harley's articles here on MB? What you're calling your human side sounds just like what he describes as our Taker. And by the way, he deftly explains that our human status needs both of our Giver and Taker.

Picture yourself in a hole, about seven feet down. You're screaming, "Get me out of this hole!" because you can't physically get out yourself. You didn't put yourself in that hole, and in answer to your screams, someone up above says, "Here's a spoon so you can dig your way out."

This can feel similar. However, it doesn't change the fact that you want out of the hole and you have a spoon. I hope that helps out when you're doing it by faith. God gives us all the tools we need, as well as the choice to use them. Or not.

I admire you greatly as you learn and work on yourself. Taking care of yourself is always in the best interest of your marriage and your family.

As for easing your Taker...your H is not the only violator in your life. You have many. Try picking someone the furthest from your nuclear family who is a pretty consistent violator of your boundaries. Something small, so small it provokes just an irritated sigh in you. Think about what boundary they cross...one of mine is honesty, so if there's someone who you feel flatters you, you could defend your boundary with: "I notice that each time we meet you find something to compliment me on. I value you and appreciate you with or without those compliments."

This is just an example of defending your boundary. Probably as lame as the dirt hole. I just didn't want you to think that this boundary thingie was all artillery and loud bangs. Start simple with holding yourself to your honesty (consideration admiration, etc.) standard and you'll see where the boundaries are, and where they are being crossed.

Much joy to you in your pursuit. Your life is about to become amazing.

LA

Thanks for the encouragement. I don't think she's ready for the courting yet. She has a sister that is encouraging her to be distant and to "find" herself. Both of them don't realize the damage that is being done. It's frustrating.
Maybe over the Christmas holidays (we're both teachers and have 2 weeks off) we'll find time to do the EN questionaire.
Thanks.

Walt - How are you doing?

Inhynm - what does your name mean? I hear music. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA