I have been at this forever with no success. I am now considering putting something in writing. Here's the quick version; W has ONS 4 yrs ago followed by EA and now only continued contact. I am fighting the contact.

Last month while planning our 20th Anniversary I learned that she called OM that day. I immediately removed my new wedding band (that we just got for our 20th) and told her when contact stops I'll put the ring back on. I explained that I thought the ring meant a new beginning but obviously not.

Anyway today, I told W that I would no longer monitor her cell phone and I would put my ring back on in good faith trusting she will stop calling him and meeting with him at a local bar. I meant this as an olive branch and thought she would be pleased. But her response was to shrug off my gesture and get extremely defensive. She wanted to go down memory lane about all the slights in the past. I told her I am tired of feeling second best to which she responded;"how does it feel". So all of this tells me she has not intention of ending contact and trying to improve things. This brings me to my question for today.

I want to write her a letter saying I won't discuss it anymore and will put my ring back on when she can look me in the eye and tell me that contact has ended. And that her reaction to today tells me that her feelings for OM continue to be more important than my feelings. blah, blah,blah!

Any suggestions welcome because we just can't seem to bury this and I can't accept continued contact no matter how innocent it might be these days.

WOE

"forsaking all others....and keeping myself only unto you."

WOE, you already know the answer, the one we all dread. You can control YOUR actions, but you can't control someone else's.

A Plan B, or a Divorce, would seem to be in order. Unless you are content to live with the OM in your life forever, you can endure the contacts as long as you can and as long as you think they are "slips," but that your wife is committed to recovery.

From what you wrote, though, I hear no commitment there, just a "take it or leave" and "I don't care" attitude.

So, now perhaps you need to seriously consider "tough love" as the answer. But there are NO guarantees that the "outcome" you "hope for" will happen. She could choose the OM over you.......but she's already doing that, isn't she?

Maybe y'all need a time out. I touched on this in another post but I'll explain it to you further. When I was a child, around 7 years old, I remember meeting my Dad's OW. That relationship never went anywhere but later when I was in junior high, my Mom moved out and moved to Austin. After 2 years she came back but her moving out was basically telling my Dad that she loved him (she didn't divorce him) but she wasn't putting up with his OW in her face anymore. They are still together now and have been married for over 50 years.

After my Mom moved to Austin, my Dad never had another affair. That 2 year timeout made them both see what they really wanted--each other.

My point is, you can survive this and so can your marriage. Sometimes it just takes time.

I hope this helps. I have gotten blasted for my attempts at advice and support from someone else so I hope I helped you and didn't make you feel even worse.

Good luck to you.

P.S. I'm new here so please tell me, what is "ONS"??

I have to agree with Texasblondie and Forever. She's either committed to the marriage or she's not. If she is, she won't deliberately do things that hurt you. It's that simple. I gather she's feeling very put upon for past behavior on your part, either real or imagined. Perhaps you and your wife can get into counseling? It would provide you, as a couple, a forum where you could air any such problems and resolve them. The intentional disrespect, though, has to stop.

WOE,

I am not real good at advice, cause my sitch is so messed up. But what the others are telling you is right on the money. The "wearing of the ring" means nothing to her, or at least not enough. Maybe you should try a different stand, Plan B seems to be in order.

I did a modified Plan B (with Steve Harley's counsel) last summer. Of course, my H won't admit to A, and I only "think" (pretty darn sure tho) that it is someone that he works with. And he has been at his company for over 25 years, so negotiating a new job is an ongoing problem (loss of retirement benifits..). So I do understand the continued contact being a real thorn. She is obviously not going to remove the thorn, You have to.

I could almost have written your post, without the ONS. I think that it was only an EA, and it was quite awhile back(~2 1/2 yrs). H seems committed to M, in words but not actions.

Plan B wasn't that hard for me, after the first 2 weeks, so if you decide to do this, prepare yourself. I just gave in too soon. H made promises and agreed to plan but did not follow through. Beware of that.

It is disrespectful of her to continue contact. I am sorry that you are still going thru this.

Good Luck,
jls

Forever, you are right that I know the answer. It's just unacceptable to me as is the contact. It is quite a quandry but just like the others have suggested she's either committed or she's not. I need to figure out what I want to do.

Texas, ALL opinions are welcome and I would never criticize someone trying to help me. ONS means One Night Stand. I liked your story very, very much. I was at a wedding recently and they asked all the married couples to start dancing. And little by little they raised the bar saying if you haven't been married 5 years sit down, 10 years sit down etc. It ended with 2 couples both over 50 years before the winner with 53 years was declared. It made me think that while there may have been an A in one or both of those marriages that one thing was certain, and that was that the affair partner is NO longer in the picture. Otherwise they would have never made it to 50. I don't think anyone would argue this point.

Longhorn, it is obvious she's cake eater. She want's the best of both worlds. I have tried counseling quite a few times and she simply doesn't participate. I'll continue to press on. Go Horns, but I'm a PSU fan.

WOE

WOE,

Quote:So, now perhaps you need to seriously consider "tough love" as the answer. But there are NO guarantees that the "outcome" you "hope for" will happen. She could choose the OM over you.......but she's already doing that, isn't she?


I couldn't agree more with Foreverhers. Just as we preach that the WS won't change until the pain of staying the same is more than that of changing, it also applies to the BS in spades.

If after a time of Plan A'ing or whatever you want to call it fails...and it appears to have failed, it really becomes gut check time for the BS.

If you as the BS don't think you are worthy of your partner's promise to uphold their marital vows, why would you expect anything to change?

As a BS you have nothing to lose, it is already gone.

No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change.

{{{{{WOE}}}}}

She does not really care, you know. I can feel it from here. She doesn't have to care. You always make it way too easy for her. (Me too, so I know what I'm talking about.)

What is the best outcome you desire?

What is the worst outcome you fear?

Take strong and certain actions to achieve the former.

Prepare yourself for the latter.

The first several iterations will come out somewhere in the middle. That’s not nearly good enough though anymore, is it?

With prayers,

WOE,

You may not like Foreverhers, Cymanca's, BryanP's or for that matter, my advice but don't you think that it is time for you to seriously consider it? Maintaining the status quo is a sure fire way of having hopelesness enter your life [if it hasn't done so already]. If that happens then there is more than good chance that you may end up having an exit affair. Don't scoff at this possibility for you are a prime candidate for one. It has happened to other BS here you know and it could well happen to you. Avoid this by either implementing Plan B or filing for divorce.

TMCM

I do not disagree with anything that is being said. The pain is no longer emotional but cerebral if that makes sense. In other words I just find it tremendously disrespectful but don't really consider it a reflection on what I'm doing. If I moved out Plan B style, I'm sure it would FORCE her to do whatever I decided had to be done to reconcile ie. counselling or NC. But the price to accomplish that is very high and disruptive and in the end what has really been accomplished.

I think Aphelion says it best "she doesn't have to care".

Cymanca, I know you've been at it a long time and like TMCM ultimately divorced. I no longer fear that outcome but I'm not pushing it. I am the breadwinner and my lifestyle wouldn't suffer.

TMCM, I agree that I am very, very ripe for some type of an A. Not sure if exit A or cry for help type A. I can see how easy it would be to fall down that hole at this point. I will probably write some type of letter.

I thank everyone for their input and don't disagree with a word. Bryanp, your words are as true today as they were 4 years ago when you gave me the same advice.

WOE,

One thing in your post caught my attention..."" I told her I am tired of feeling second best to which she responded;"how does it feel".""

Could it be that you unintentionally are treating her this way? She must be feeling "second best" or much lower than you since the ONS. Maybe you subconscously are treating her like a tramp?

Just a thought. But why would she say that?

Stay strong!!

And Texasblondie..ONS is "one night stand".

k

WOE...I think you said a mouthful right there..no?

Is it now making sense that MB has 2 plans? Plan A and Plan B.

In some cases, BS are petrified of Plan B... and never really attempt it...afterall, a bad Plan B is worse than no Plan B at all.

However... you've now reached a point, that the continued disrespect for your M is effecting the way you feel about the W....NO?

As you said...it's all cerebal now?

The answers in you WOE...I know it is...I think you're just looking for another option, and sadly there isn't one at this point.

Be strong.

WOE:

"I meant this as an olive branch and thought she would be pleased. But her response was to shrug off my gesture and get extremely defensive. She wanted to go down memory lane about all the slights in the past. "

You and I have been here long enough and heard dialogs exactly like this enough times 2 know exactly what it means.

Translated: she has a good reason for reacting with defensiveness rather than responding with consideration. She's having an A, plan and simple, and she believes you'll tolerate it if you don't think it's "more" than "just friends." I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were 2 2rn out 2 have been a PA all along. It's certainly an EA, and you know that's just as destructive, if not worse.

When you put your ring back on next time, repeat after me: "This is a test of the emergency Plan B system. This is only a test. If this had been an ac2al emergency, I would have gone dark, instead of donning this symbol of commitment in hopes that you'd reciprocate in kind..."

Get a napkin and a pen, and write this down. I am in 100% agreement with ForeverHers' post above. That doesn't happen all that often! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I think I know how you feel, also at the 100% level, 2. But in my case I don't imagine myself having an A in the wildest of my dreams. Another relationship is the furthest thing from my mind right now.

-ol' 2long

WOE,

Check these two statements of yours:


and:


If I didn't know any better, you sound like a cake-eating WS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Furthermore, since you acknowledge that you are ripe for an affair, you KNOW that to continue in such a marital environment, only increases those chances on a daily basis. An affair of your own will totally destroy what is left of your marriage and devastate the two of you. Do you want that? If not, then start preparing for Plan B.

TMCM

Hey, 2!

How are you?

Same old same old here

WOE, as someone who has "endured" 3 years of "contacts" before finally reaching the point where we are past that, I understand fully the "cerebral" reference you made.

I can only "assess" your situation versus my situation with what you write. And what you have written is not, imho, 'tendrils of an entangled affair' causing occasional "slips" that are regretted and then followed by a recommitment to "try again." No, it's an "in your face" rebellion...."see how YOU like it!" sort of DELIBERATE attack on the marriage for "perceived or real 'slights'" that you have given her. Rather than "confront" those slights, she uses them as rationalization to CONTINUE adulteous (marital unfaithfulness) behavior as a way to "get even." That's NOT "slipping."

You asked a VERY pertinent question at the end; "But the price to accomplish that is very high and disruptive and in the end what has really been accomplished."

The answer to this question depends a lot on one's one belief structure. For me, the answer is "obvious." What is "accomplished" is obedience to God FIRST and foremost. The marriage is a covenant with God and the husband and wife. There is NO room in a marriage for ANY other party.

Prior to that question you made a statement that also needs a little comment.

"If I moved out Plan B style, I'm sure it would FORCE her to do whatever I decided had to be done to reconcile ie. counselling or NC. But the price to accomplish that is very high and disruptive"

So? Doing "nothing" gives your consent. If YOU won't have the "backbone" to stand for the sanctity and exclusivity of marriage, why should your wife, who has already demonstrated that she doesn't want or believe in an exclusive marriage? She wants you to accept a so-called "open marriage." Good luck if that is what you allow, no matter how you "hope" she will change.

And lest you think that Plan B or standing firm for No Contact would somehow be "tainted" because it's "manipulative," consider this. It is NOT manipulative
to have STANDARDS and BOUNDARIES. It is saying to your wife and to the world, "I will not do "such and such" to anyone else and I will NOT allow someone else to do "such and such to me" without consequences." Anyone trying to "guilt" you into accepting their WRONG behavior against your Boundaries IS, themselves, BEING or attempting to be, MANIPULATIVE. You, standing for your Standards and Boundaries are drawing a line in the sand and welcoming those of "like mind" and telling others to "have a good life" with their own Standards and Boundaries that are incompatible with yours.

That's no different than Christ saying, "you are either for me or against me....choose." But it's NOT manipulating anyone.

WOE, "change" in behavior is precipitated by CRISIS. We DON'T change unless faced with a CHOICE. As long as we are allowed to maintain the Status Quo, WHY should any of us change anything? As long as we are getting what we "want," why should we consider the impact of our actions on anyone else, much less the "evil" spouse who wants to keep us all to themselves?

WOE, you are kidding yourself, and have obviously been kidding yourself (major Conflict Avoider) for a long time. NO ONE can be on Marriage Builders for very long without learning that Marriage is an "exclusive of all others" arrangement between two "consenting" adults who have voluntarily given up their individual right to do as they please in favor of the "rights and needs" of their spouse.

If YOU won't stand for that, there is nothing that anyone here can say or do that will help you and your marriage. Getting married INVOLVES risk and taking a "chance" on an unknown future. STAYING married involves the same risk. NOTHING worth having in life is "risk free."

Even accepting Christ involves "risk" in that you "give up" your right to the "throne of your life" to God. The difference is that God IS faithful to ALL of His promises and IS the one true sovereign.

It's NOT easy to stand for marriage, or to stand against your spouse and "risk" the continuation of your marriage. But LOVE demands the commitment....TO and FOR marriage.

God bless.

WOE! So good to see you here. Well, and it's bad to see you here, still struggling with this very same need. It sounds to me that what you and your W have entered into is ~ a genuine, bonafide, Powerstruggle. Ick. These are very hard to get out of, because the feelings of winning and losing ground are very powerful.

I think it goes both ways because of your W's comment about feeling like second choice ~ the same way you were telling her you felt regarding her contact with the OM. And you both want to prove your point, prove your feelings are valid, with lots of evidence *proof*

This is no way to live in a M, WOE. You are bashing her with your ring, she is bashing you with contact. You extend what you think is an olive branch, with an EXPECTATION of what that will mean to her, and take it as a personal attack when she responds differently. In her mind, your gesture could be extremely insulting to her! You just don't know why she is making her choices, and vice-versa, and you keep reacting from one to the next.


And how do you know this? Do you have a crystal ball? DO NOT limit your actions, based on an EXPECTATION of the result! Or, what it really comes down to, and FEAR of the result. I'm not saying to separate. That is not for me to say, I only post to you about once in a blue moon, I have no idea your sitch over there. I DO know enough to know that neither of you has a clue as to what is going on with each other.

Why does she feel like a second-class citizen to you? Have you made the judgement that you are the "better" of the two of you, since you are doing what you think is necessary to save your M? That you are willing to suffer for years so that she can selfishly maintain contact with the OM?

If you want her to be vulnerable with you, you must be vulnerable with her. And that might include you apologizing for your actions making her feel like a second-class citizen in her own home. Because you know first-hand how crappy that feels, right? Wouldn't it be aweful, if you were inadvertantly causing her that same feeling?

Take care of YOU, WOE.

Spidey

Krushd, her response was a reference to the first half of our M. The other morning she added "all's I asked for was a phone call". A reference to late night business parties over 10 years ago. Absolutely an excuse to justify present behavior. I have more than atoned. And I am very careful not to make her feel like a tramp. I realize she beats herself up enough.

NewJersey, I suppose you're right about the disrespect getting unacceptable. Before it was the pain that had to go, now it's different. It isn't Plan B time though I agree with what you're saying about MB Principals. There really is no OM per se. It's all in her head.

Will reply to all others who took the time to post shortly.

WOE