I am returning to MB for advice after having success with the site 4 years ago when I separated from my wife. We have been divorced for 1 1/2 years and have 3 daughters (11,9,6) I have been in a relationship for about 20 months. My girlfriend is wonderful with my daughters and we spend almost all of our weekends together. I am alone with them on Tuesday nights but she is welcome to join us if she wishes.

We are having major problems over child/X-Spouse issues. She previoulsy dated a divorced dad with children and feels things should operate like they did with him since he did things, "the right way". I would welcome any comments on the following issues:
1. The kids should be ready at the pick up time and there is no reason why I should ever go in the house I shared with my X.
2. I should not sit close to my X at sporting events and we should alternate attending them so we are not together.
Girlfriend is welcome to attend but does not since she is only the "girlfriend" not the fiancee or step mom.
3. I should not have very much phone contact with the X and most of it can be through the children
4. If I have the girls on the weekend it is selfish and disrespectful of me to attend a Monday game when I will be with them on Tuesday night as well.
**5. Any counselor or Minister will tell you that you have to put your partner first in your life. when that happens your children will see a healthy relationship......

I am guilty of all of the above things becaus [color:"black"] [/color] e I put my children first 90% of the time. If I were married some things may be different but I cannot cross that bridge or contemplate it until the issues with the children are resolved.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated!

I wish I had time to respond to this properly, but I am running out the door. Let me say that your gf is insecure. How do you feel about your x? Do you still want to be with her? If so, maybe that is what your gf is feeling. If that isn't the case, she is just terribly insecure. I personally believe that no one should tell another what to do...even if they are married.

I'll post more later.

Hi Better Off,

I don't write often but your subject caught my eye. Welcome back to MB.

Before I answer your questions, know that I am in my second marriage and have a very good communicative relationship with my ex, and my H has a continuing (not unfriendly) dialogue with his ex, but due to a lot of continuing financial difficulties of our own, he isn't able to see his kids as he would like. In the beginning, he was them EOW and went to games, holiday get-togethers (birthdays) etc. Actually, we both were there. That's where I'm coming from.

Regarding your questions:

1. The kids should be ready at the pick up time and there is no reason why I should ever go in the house I shared with my X.

Your kids are young and probably need your help getting their stuff out to the car. Why not go in and help?

2. I should not sit close to my X at sporting events and we should alternate attending them so we are not together.
Girlfriend is welcome to attend but does not since she is only the "girlfriend" not the fiancee or step mom.

GO TO YOUR KIDS EVENTS EVERY TIME if you can! They'll appreciate it SOOOOOOOOOO much. Talk to your ex, show the kids that you can get along. Kids love it when their parents get along.

3. I should not have very much phone contact with the X and most of it can be through the children

NO NO NO... NEVER *THROUGH* THE KIDS. Never, EVER. Talk directly to your ex-wife! Yipes. Kids don't need that kind of pressure.

4. If I have the girls on the weekend it is selfish and disrespectful of me to attend a Monday game when I will be with them on Tuesday night as well.

GO GO GO to anything you can. How is it selfish and disrespectful?

**5. Any counselor or Minister will tell you that you have to put your partner first in your life. when that happens your children will see a healthy relationship......

Yes, this is true of many counselors and ministers. I don't know what to say about this and I'll tell you why. I sacrificed a lot to be with my H now (he lived in another country from me when we met and I moved here to be with him)... and I wish I hadn't done it. Not the marriage, but the sacrifice. There were other ways... perhaps waiting to marry... you understand what I mean, I'm sure.

Yes, as 1997 said above, your girlfriend sounds insecure. Most second wives are, especially if they're young and/or don't have children of their own.

Your girlfriend may end up being your wife, or maybe not, but those children are yours forever.

In my case, by the way, my kids were much older than yours when their father and I divorced and they are grown now. But they will always be my kids. Don't miss out on your time with them now... and cherish the friendship you have with your ex -- it isn't common to be friendly, and it's a blessing.

1. The kids should be ready at the pick up time and there is no reason why I should ever go in the house I shared with my X. [color:"red"] This screams jealousy!! [/color]

2. I should not sit close to my X at sporting events and we should alternate attending them so we are not together.
Girlfriend is welcome to attend but does not since she is only the "girlfriend" not the fiancee or step mom. [color:"red"] JEALOUSY!!! [/color]

3. I should not have very much phone contact with the X and most of it can be through the children. [color:"red"] The children should not be messengers!!![/color]

4. If I have the girls on the weekend it is selfish and disrespectful of me to attend a Monday game when I will be with them on Tuesday night as well. [color:"red"] You should be able to attend any and all of your girls functions regardless of how often they are!!! [/color]

**5. Any counselor or Minister will tell you that you have to put your partner first in your life. when that happens your children will see a healthy relationship...
[color:"red"] this might be true when your children are grown and out on their own but what really shows your children a healthy relationship is when the two divorced parents can still be civil to one another and know that they(the children)are loved unconditionally. Sounds to me like you need to kick the g/f to the curb. I'm guessing she has no children of her own hense the reason she is the one being selfish. [/color]

[color:"blue"]I think that the way you work things out with your ex is not your girlfriend's choice. She should probably stay out of the picture. Get a book for her on being a "step" - most of them will advise her to mind her own business. [/color]



[color:"blue"]Why? Are you spending hours yakking about old times with your ex? Otherwise your GFs objection sounds a bit controlling. [/color]


[color:"blue"]If you and your ex are comfortable with the proximity for the sake of the kids or because you are friends then why does your GF object to what you do for the kids. Why is she making herself "just" the girlfriends and as such unable to go? Maybe she just doesn't really want to go or is pushing you to marry her... [/color]



[color:"blue"]That is crap - you have to have open communication about the children with the ex. [/color]



[color:"blue"]Disrespectful to GF? You should probably set aside one night of the week to yourselves. If you are not doing at least that, then she might be feeling neglected. [/color]



[color:"blue"]You are not married. You should make time for your GF and stick to that however your children are important too. I think if you neglect the GF eventually she will walk... [/color]



[color:"blue"]I schedule time for my BF after I schedule time for my children's events. I do, however, ensure that one night a week is untouched for "just us". That alone is not enough time to satisfy me - which is why I was complaining on my own thread about the way that I am scheduled last on BFs calendar. He has no children. If your GF also has no children it may be that she does not understand some of your issues and the way that you have to continue to have a good relationship with your ex because of the kids.

So, my $.02 is that you should schedule time for both the kids and the GF but the other issues the GF brought up seem like insecurity or jealousy. Does she have a cause to be that way?

V. [/color]

Better Off,

I see major "RED FLAG" from this GF of yours.

[color:"red"] [/color] ------------------------------------------------------------
From my own personal experience, kids will always forget something and it can take a while for them to get their stuff together. This is your children's home too and yes it's OK for you to be there and converse with their mother. This is a controlling issue.




[color:"red"] [/color] ------------------------------------------------------------
If you and your EX are on civil term with each other, I see no problem with both of you sitting together or attending the same event, Kids should have both parents at school and sporting events. My EX and I always sit together.

BF is welcome to attend events too but refuse to attend school events, he thinks that this should be for both parents only, since he is only BF and not my Fiance or Husband. Now if BF attends event we do sit apart from my EX but we will get together at some point to talk.

Your GF sounds very insecure, she needs to remember that you and your wife had these girls together, and as long as you and your EX are willing to be a part of your little girls' life, you will be dealing with each other for a very long time, even after they are 18. You will have to deal with graduations, weddings, grandchildren and etc... If your GF is giving you grief now, it will only get worse later on after she becomes your wife. Might want to think hard about this woman.



[color:"red"] [/color] ------------------------------------------------------------

Children are children, you don't need to put them in the middle, like sending checks through them or relaying messages, that should be dealt with ONLY between you and your EX.


[color:"red"] [/color] ------------------------------------------------------------

You are their Dad, you attend as many events as you can, what matter most is your daughter. Your daughters will never complain about you spending too much time at their event, they will always remember how their Dad is always there rooting for them.


[color:"red"] [/color]
------------------------------------------------------------

She's wrong again, you put God first in your life. Remember, you can lose your job, house, kids, wife, noone can take God away from you, only if you turn your back on him.

Good luck to you.

I don't think you will ever regret putting your children first. I think your gf is the one who is being selfish and disrespectful, not you. Your ex is your children's mother and you will have to interact with her on some level for the rest of your life. If your gf cannot accept this you need to look for a new gf.

As far as the specific points,

"1. The kids should be ready at the pick up time and there is no reason why I should ever go in the house I shared with my X."

Ideally they would be ready, but if you feel comfortable going into the house to get them and your ex doesn't mind, small things like this can greatly reduce the stress on the kids.

"2. I should not sit close to my X at sporting events and we should alternate attending them so we are not together.
Girlfriend is welcome to attend but does not since she is only the "girlfriend" not the fiancee or step mom."

Attend as many activities of your darling daughter's as possible. You won't get a second chance to show your children that they are important to you.

"3. I should not have very much phone contact with the X and most of it can be through the children"

NEVER use the children as messengers. This will only add to the stress in their young lives. You and your ex are their parents. You have the joint responsibility to raise your children even though you are no longer married. I'm not saying you should call just to chat, but if something needs to be communicated to the mother of your kids, pick up the phone and call her.

"4. If I have the girls on the weekend it is selfish and disrespectful of me to attend a Monday game when I will be with them on Tuesday night as well."

Again, I think your gf is the one being selfish and disrespectful.

"5. Any counselor or Minister will tell you that you have to put your partner first in your life. when that happens your children will see a healthy relationship......"

If you replaced the word partner with spouse I would almost agree; however, if your partner does not have your children's best interest as a priority you need to find a new partner before the partner becomes your spouse. Children need to see healthy relationships, but not at their own expense.

I agree with LF1997, your gf seems very insecure. This needs to be addressed because your daughter's will be there for the rest of your life.

I am also hitting the boards again after a break of a couple years. I am just starting to date again after my divorce, but anyone I date will have to accept that my kids are a priority and that I communicate with their mother regularly about them. If they can't accept that, then they are not a good fit.

WS

BetterOff~

It looks like there has been good advice given, so I won't go into detail.

The only thing I want to duplicate by saying is:

Your children come first! Attend as much as you can that they are involved in. Be an active father, girls especially need that.

For me personally, I admire a "father" that is involved with his children and wants to be.

Karona

I'm in my second marriage and both my husband and I have kids from before.

He doesn't have to contact his exwife much luckily. Even if he had to talk to her everyday I'd never think of imposing restrictions on him like this. JEALOUS MUCH???

I have to talk to my exhusband a couple of times a week. I always mention to him when I speak with him but that's it.

I would be very cautious of someone who would be this jealous and insecure.

You are parents of these kids forever and that's something she needs to consider. They were here first and she has to accept that the two of you will have to have some contact.

I personally couldn't consider dating a man who wasn't involved with his children- I'm not sure what she's thinking.

I second that!!! I have a son who never sees his father and I have a daughter who always sees her father. (separate marriages)

Letsee, 1 question I have is WHY did her previous relationship not work out? Did it have anything to do with the kids?

I don't have kids, and so I'm coming from the GF's perspective here. I dated xBF with 2 kids (fulltime widowed Dad) for 2 and 1/2 yrs. I learned a lot about myself during that time. I currently in my 6th week with current BF, who has 2 kids every other weekend, and sometimes more, and his parents keep them every afternoon after school.

So, now that you know where I'm coming from, YES, based on the 5 expectations you listed, your GF is asking too much!!! The 5 things you listed don't seem right to ME!!! (even from my perspective as a non-parent), and I agree with the others that she seems insecure and somewhat controlling. (Of course... as always on this board... we're reading your side of things... and your interpretation of her "demands", but <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> that's all we have to go on.)

Now... having said all that... and then I'll try to address the 5 items... first, a couple of more thoughts:

If there's anything you are doing to make her feel neglected, then see if you can change that.

I don't know her, and her personality, but if she's honestly trying to participate and give input, that's good. Someone that doesn't have kids can't relate to you, (even someone who DOES have kids will have different ideas, right?), so she might be striving to somehow be a part of decision-making, etc., which is what I did, and do. Sometimes the wrong way... sometimes right... it takes negotiation... you have to find out if ya'll can negotiate. I always try to keep in mind that the parent is the parent and must decide how things will go for the kids... but if he wants me in his life, we have to work together to make the situation live-able for everyone.

You may be quoting these word-for-word as to how your GF says them and intends them. In THAT case, several responses here were great as to how inappropriate these demands are. I'm going to take a different approach, and try to present VERY different ideas, as to how she might possibly intend them, so that a middleground can be reached.

1. The kids should be ready at the pick up time and there is no reason why I should ever go in the house I shared with my X.

She could be concerned about the "contact with a former lover" thing... in case you 2 still had feelings, or developed feelings again. Or... if you and your XW had a tendency to argue and fuss in front of the kids, she wouldn't want you to do that. If you and your XW are good friends, maybe she's insecure that you are talking about her. So, depending on the situation, you can either reassure GF about the 1st 2 scenarios, or it's HER issue if she's insecure. Ask her WHY she feels this way.

2. I should not sit close to my X at sporting events and we should alternate attending them so we are not together.
Girlfriend is welcome to attend but does not since she is only the "girlfriend" not the fiancee or step mom.

I don't have any thoughts on this one. Sorry. I would try to find out WHY she won't attend. Does it have something to do with your XW being there? Wondering if she's just intimidated by your XW for some reason (jealous, feels inferior, etc) Does she attend other public things with you? Is she nervous about being seen as your GF in public in general? Or as a family unit in general? Do the 4 of you go out to movies and dinner and stuff as a "family"?

3. I should not have very much phone contact with the X and most of it can be through the children

I guess my answer is the same as #1. Concerned about renewed "love feelings", or arguing, whichever the case may be. Has she observed any of this? Perhaps it happened in another relationship she had, or she has seen it before with a friend. Have you asked her WHY?

4. If I have the girls on the weekend it is selfish and disrespectful of me to attend a Monday game when I will be with them on Tuesday night as well.

Hmmm.... again, I ask you. (I think sunnyV asked you also) Are you scheduling enough alone time with your GF? Is there a reason she's feeling neglected, and not getting enough of your attention?

**5. Any counselor or Minister will tell you that you have to put your partner first in your life. when that happens your children will see a healthy relationship......

Your kids are important, and more important than a GF. However, I wonder if she is trying to get at something else here, but it's REALLY coming out wrong, and being used in the wrong context here. Strong love between parents CAN be an awesome example and stability for kids, and is important, and time and energy should be spent to ensure it's there. And happy parents do make a better household than stressed out or depressed parents. But, kids come before GF. Just make sure there's plenty of time given to GF so the relationship will survive and thrive <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

I agree with all posters, but for "final judgement" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />, let's look at things from the other angle...
Her side.
What she'd say/reply?...


Only because of that?
(I cannot imagine a parent to feel guilty because of that.
Sure there is nothing more to it than this?)


Hm...
Which things, if you don't mind?


Of course!

What do you think why your gf reacts this way?
Talked to her, know what she feels and why, told her how you feel about, her answer then?

It's maybe her last experience... now she sees a devoted dad and she can't understand...

If there is no this issue, are you sure you'd want to 'spend the rest of your life with her'?

I agree with the first few posters who said that kids must come first in a situation like this. It's a no-brainer, and any GF who tries to come between the kids and the dad is a) clueless and b) not ready to be dating a person with kids.

So from that perspective, it's easy - you are doing the right thing in putting kids first, and you should not ignore your kids just to please a GF - if you did, that would be a red flag big enough to sail a ship.

However, I also sense the same thing that Faith and Belonging2Myself noted - there is more to this story than the kids.

Methinks that your GF is jealous of your XW, and I think you need to step back and examine how you interact with your XW. Is there any reason for your GF to be jealous of how you interact with your XW? Do you treat the XW more respectfully and nicely than you treat your GF?

Let me ask you a couple of questions regarding that:

- do you and your XW talk about personal stuff aside from kids?

- do you and your XW discuss your GF?

- do you still have any feelings for your XW (I noticed you started dating your GF before divorcing your XW)?

- does your GF have any reason to believe that you are not all that crazy about her (20 months is a long time to know someone - do you make her feel like this relationship is going somewhere, or does she have a reason to believe that she is just a warm body)?

My suspicion or gut feel is that one or more of these answers would be a "yes". If so, then you should realize that this is not about the kids, but about you and your GF, and how much you value that relationship. My suspicion also is that your GF can sense that some of these answers are "yes", and probably can do little else than try to limit your time with your XW (rather than with the kids).

So, honestly, what would your answers be?

AGG

Welcome back Better Off:


Does GF join you on Tuesday nights?


Why does GF consider that her former BF's methods are/were the "right way"? That might be an interesting topic.


Huh? That is an unreasonable demand. As I'm sure you know - one of the first things we learn as parents is related to Murphy's Law... And things will go wrong. Why do you suppose that GF is so rigid about this?


I am Dad to two beautiful girls - and I assure you that nothing or no one will keep me from attending school events or any other event that involves DD's. End of story. Again - why do you suppose GF is taking this position?


Actually - none of it should be through your little girls. They've suffered enough concerning issues not of their making. There are several reasons why this is not appropriate.


See #2.


[W/o getting into a debate about how God fits into our lives] please allow this: Part of her message here is true. But only part! Our spouse is supposed to be first in our life on an emotional and intimate level. And yes, we are supposed to be role-models for our kids, which is what GF is implying. However GF is not your spouse, and your girls are not hers. That is not to say that the two of you won't marry and GF may end up learning to love DD's as her own. That would be the goal. But you're not there yet.


Why wouldn't your girls be first in your life 100% of the time?

I agree with your thoughts on resolving issues surrounding your girls. I would consider that to be a priority. From my seat - you and GF are not on the same page when it comes to your girls and perhaps parenthood in general. And the two of you should have serious discussions about this. (With a strong dose of radical honesty!)

It may be that GF is young and/or lacks the knowledge of responsible and loving parenthood. Perhaps she desires to learn. What do you think about asking her to post on here and ask a few of these questions? There are plenty of us with experience that may be invaluable to GF.

It may be that GF is a bit jealous of XW and/or DD's.

It may also be that GF will never "unconditionally love" your girls like she should.

These are all questions that could ultimately end relationship with GF. Or it could strengthen the relationship. However - I feel these are topics that need to be discussed; and I feel you agree; otherwise you would not have posted about this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good Luck.

FR

I am very touchy on the subject of stepchildren.
When I married, I treated my stepdaughter just like I did my own kids. Unfortunately, she was an only child, lived with her father for three years alone before we met (16 when we married), and DID NOT like having to get used to sharing him with anyone. She stirred up trouble anyway she could, even with the law. He always excused it. ( when my son- same age- got in trouble, he had to suffer the consequences) She lied to get what she wanted, he always excused it. She tried to move out at 17, telling lies to the law and a judge. But the judge could see through it because he asked her questions and caught her in it - sent her home. She did move out at 18( she didn't like house rules and being grounded if she didn't take care of her responsibilities) and then got herself into more trouble out there. Got thrown out of the place she was living for not following rules. Came home - daddy excused it again. And I could go on. It doesn't end there. That's just the beginning. And she refused any kind of help from a counselor. Finally the counselor said she needed to learn how life worked. She couldn't always come running home when she messed up. Not when someone messed her, but when SHE messed up. In fact she's 22 now and still doing the same stuff. I couldn't take it anymore. There comes a point when you have to let a child take a fall and feel a bruises before they learn that if they don't hang on they're gonna fall out of that tree.

So for any of you that think you're children come first: I agree that if they have a need (including the games) they need to be taken care of. But at the same time, if the policy of joint agreement can't be followed in ALL areas of a marriage, it ain't gonna be a good one. And Dr. H says that children from a previous marriage are one of the biggest causes for marrital problems. Some of you need to take a little time to learn what Dr. Harley has to teach you before you go judging like you do.

Personally, I believe the gf IS very insecure. Everyone is screaming jealous, but I think they need to kick back and take another look. Something, somewhere happened to this girl to make her this way. Something BAD. So she's scared.

I'm not a jealous person, but to be perfectly honest, I do not look forward to dealing with stepchildren again. So right now I won't even consider a man with children. Forget it. I've been abused and neglected because of them in the past and I don't want it again. (Even Dr. H backed me on being reasonable with what I expected when we were married) So I think some of you need to back off with being so set with some of your words. Sometimes putting children first is NOT a good thing. It just depends on the situation. If you make a commitment then it needs to be one where you trust whomever you are with to sit down and work on things until you come up with something that you BOTH agree on. It can be tough, but without it you don't have anything.

If the gf is that much of a bother, then let her know how you feel. If she's going to be willing to work on things with you after a marriage, she'll definetly be willing to work now. If she's not willing to work now, then you're better off calling it quits - PERIOD.

Becki

I agree that these demands raise a huge red flag. If it is this bad now, just wait until after you are married, if you marry her. My H has been allowed to attend only three activities in which our six children participated, since 1999, and on one of these occasions, I know that he did not inform his OW/wife in advance, because she called him to check up on him and I overheard the beginning of the conversation. According to him/her, it is "not appropriate" for people to attend teacher conferences with their ex-spouses. She rarely allows him to talk to me on the phone, and went so far as to change the message on his cell voice mail to tell the caller to email or mail him if they wanted to get a hold of him, after one of the few times I called him in the last six years. "He" wants me to communicate only in writing, so that she can write the responses - it is easy to tell the difference between the writing style of an engineer and that of a graduate of an elite liberal arts college. The children are only allowed to visit him a few times a year, because according to her they are not sufficiently polite to her. She does not want him setting foot in my house. This is what your children have to look forward to if you marry someone so jealous and insecure.

Good, thoughtful post Becki. You've clearly walked in "those" shoes. While I agree that Dr. H's principles need to be followed to have a good marriage, there are leeways that have to be given to children in blended families. Only a counselor knowing all the details could really give this gentlemen valid advice.

I'm in a blended family and I know I'm loved by my husband and always, always considered. That doesn't mean that the children don't come first. We agreed prior to marriage that they would. I think it is important for them. We change plans constantly for them. We make sure that they get alone time with their bioparent each week. My Husband attends all events. He tries to at least acknowledge his x. I do when I go. Kids feel better when their parents are civil. The problem I had with the gf in this guys situation is that she is already coming across as controlling. That always leads to trouble...

You should always put your children ahead of your SO.

If her ex boyfriend did things the "right" way, why is he her ex boyfriend and not her husband at this point? Something went wrong, and she's not in his life or his childrens' lives any more. Your children will ALWYS be in your life. You know wives can leave. Children can't. (Or they can be forced out or forced away - by SO's who want to be put first in their boyfriend's/girlfriend's lives.

She's not your wife. She's a girlfriend. She may be very nice. But your children are first priority.

Even if you marry her, the children need to be your top consideration. Their security, safety, comfort and wellbeing.