"...how lousey life would be without Rocked and Holiday"

Thanks for the kudos. Time for a "GROUP HUG!"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>HUG<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

2,

That is not a silly thing to share! I sometimes wish that the OW could see that we were happy, but I think when I really think about it, she probably never wanted us apart. I do not believe that she wanted my H for good. I have gone back and forth on this issue, I know, b/c the feelings were so intense in such a short time that I think she was after him from the very beginning as a new person to be with when she left her fiance. I think she wanted my H as a crutch to hold her together after that break-up. Luckily for me, she found another old boyfriend to cling on to, b/c she could see that she was becoming to dependent on a man, who was REALLy unavailable for her. I came to this conclusion by the fact that she and my H never really went through the withdrawl that you usually see. My H did miss her friendship; I mean he had talked to her for hours everyday for a couple of months, of course that would be missed. BUT, it took him less than a week for the magnitude of his stupidity to hit him, and when I found out about it(only 2 weeks after the break up) he gave her up without a fight. And she was the same way. When she broke it off with my H, he tells me that she just broke clean and never seemed to look back. Plus, the woman did send me an apology letter, which I can see as some manipulation, but it also has remorse in it. If she had not been at least a little sorry for her actions, I do not think she could have put the words she did. Then again, she fooled my H into thinking that she was a not a crazy psycho, so who knows. The point of this long story is, I do not think she would be unhappy to see us together, and a picture would not "stick it to her" in any way.

I do not think a picture of your family would do anything to your OW either. As Rocked said, she has moved on. I bet should would look at it and only pity you for staying with a man capable of cheating on you(b/c like it or not, most people would probably call us all fools). So, as Rocked said, do it for you. I also agree with Rocked, it would probably go a long way at making your H feel like you at least are still willing to give the marriage a chance.

I had some similar thoughts about the Christmas card. I usually mail a picture collage that has different things we did during the year. Last year I had just mailed out this great collage, and it had us looking so happy in Ireland, and a family picture where we looked so perfect. It was 3 days after I mailed that collage that I found out. This year I started to make one...I used a fictional tabloid magazine cover for the background(I figured our life seemed like a tabloid) and it is really cute. However, after the last couple weeks of doubts, I also am not sure to send it. If I was really being honest, I would have pictures of me crying and feeling like my world was crushed. I would have pictures of my H standing next to the OW, and my kids looking at me with concern as I "lose" it once again. Not a pretty collage. It was hard to find any pictures of me this year to put on there, and absolutely none of my H and I together. So, I decided to just send out cards.

Yes, life would be lousey without Rocked and Holiday. I look back at this year and thank God for you all. You have been a tremendous support for me! Like Rocked said once, it is too bad that it took something so awful to bring us together, though.

Well, better run. Girl Scout Christmas party tonight. Oh, if any of you are interested....my H and I started a new little blog(this is different from my personal one, which deals a lot with infidelity). The address for it is www.illinoisopposites.blogspot.com. There is not much on their now, and those Conservatives out there may not like some of my rants....but check it out if you want. I will let you know my other one if you ever want it, but do not know the address offhand.

TTYL!

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Whew! I've never had True agree with so many of my comments before. Maybe it's b/c I menitoned her name...and Republican...together in a recent post. True, you ready to come over to my side? HA. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Girl Scout Christmas Party! Now there's an event to experience. Let me guess...refreshments include Thin Mint and Peanut Butter cookies!!?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

True, I checked out that blog site. You've been hiding some of your "fire" from us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Thanks guys for your thoughts. It doesn't however help because what I want to do is send a picture of the kids, but then you both said it would be a deposit to send one of the whole family. I don't know what to do?!

As far as the OW in our case, there has NEVER not for one moment been a doubt in my mind that she didn't want to break us up and marry my H. That is HER reality. That is what her mother did to her own sister...break up their marriage and marry her brother in law. I know OW wanted to end our marriage, she told me herself she thought they'd be together! Then there was all the DRAMATIC crying and carrying on around the office when my H did break up with her. I still believe the reason she sung like a bird when I called her was she hoped my knowing would break us up and send my H back to her. Do I really think it would annoy her to see a family picture...yep! Do I think she has moved on...yep! So I'm back to square one.

H and I had a talk this morning and he cried. Yes, it is sad what a mess he's made of our lives.

I have to work for awhile. Chat later!
2

2-Good luck, there is no such thing if you marry a man. Woman wound men with their "words". We can have arrows for tongues.

Men don't take "corrective critisism" very well, I don't care who he is. It pierces them to their core. My H doesn't fight back well either. So I always try to phrase my statements with a male perspective. I want to be with a man, therefore I try to learn their language for the most part. It is in their chemistry (help me out here Rocked on how to explain.) Women sometimes get too deep in conversations and men just get deeper in trying to find the remote.

I'm not saying that having a good heart to heart check up with your man is not necessary, I just think we hold our relationships in what our spouses think sometimes and not just going with the flow.
I feel your next relationship will not be perfect either. 50% of the relationship you are having now is because of you. This is not a dig. I feel like you do alot of the time. I don't think things will change for me unless I change something. But, if there is another reason besides your H's A that is holding you in this limbo state, perhaps you might research that. That might be the issue you had prior to your H's A and things haven't changed.



2-If you feel your family is not happy...I think it might show in your picture. But really, who cares what she thinks! Are you staying with your H just to prove something with her? Don't waste the energy. She is nothing!!!!!!!!! You have me worried that perhaps your marriage, right now is based on your pride and overcoming humiliation. And not based on how much you love/loved your H and want your family. Please stop looking in the wrong places. I love ya and I don't wish your heart to grow any colder. You are right. It's not a pure thought. I don't think she takes the time to see what you and your family are doing. She was a temporary blood sucker, draining you and your family's life force. Now she has moved on to her next victim. And I agree with Rocked. "Oh nice picture, put this on the wall with the others"...is about what goes on.



True-How do you give back to someone once it's stolen away? You can't. So you decide, "do I want what I still have?" or "do I want to find someone else who will "attempt" to promise and "attempt" to keep their vows?" Because no one is perfect and therefore, no marriage is perfect.



I don't think Rocked and I have let "it" slide. Maybe mellowed.

I tend to look at it this way:
My H loves me. He loves me the best he knows how (perhaps not as "I" want him to love me all the time, but how "he" knows how to love me.) At this point and for the past year we are trying very hard to make our marriage happy. Somedays better than others. Somedays stressed with each other. He has all the knowledge of how to A proof himself for the future and so do I. I am not blind. I am very perceptive. He knows this. Now I live my life with the hope that he will not make such poor choices again. What I can't do is follow him around all day to make sure he doesn't screw up. I have placed my hope and prayers with God. I pray for my H everyday.

Hey All,

Sorry for not helping you 2. If only we had all the answers, life would be so much easier.

Rocked, Fire? me??? Nah <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Holiday, WOW! I do not think I have heard this much from you in a long time. I am glad you posted.

I also know I cannot follow my H around all day, and I want him to have a life that includes his independence. There are times when my suspicions make me freak out, but for the most part I look at it the same way you do. I cannot control him, only myself. I may not show that here on the board, but that is what I try my best to do.

You are right, he cannot give back what he has stolen, and that is where I have my conflicts...b/c even though I try not to dwell anymore, there is part of me that still wants to wake up and find that this is all a bad dream and that the love of my life could not possibly ever steal that from me.

You know, when I read 2's line about the debates, I actually saw a spot where we are different. My H and I both love to debate. His whole family was a bunch of devil's advocates, and it is usually ME who gets upset before he does. My H is a very emotional man(I actually believe my H is one of those men who can do what 2 described)...one of the things that drew the OW in. BUT, he loves a good argument. He is a scientist after all, and he loves to prove the other person wrong, or at least get them thinking. One of the things I have missed most about our relationship this past year, is that the only thing we really argued about was the A. I liked our good hearted debates before, and I think we have both been so scared of causing any further pain, that we have not engaged in some of the "fun" things we did before. Even playing "slugbug" in the car with the kids...pretty silly, huh?

have a good afternoon, and nice to hear from all of you again!!!!

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Neither do I see it as "letting things slide" as much as "choosing to focus forward". I still hurt and wish to heck this whole thing never happended. But my lowest times have been when I've dwelled on the past activity of my W and attempted to exact punishment upon her by my own negativity and thoughlessness.

Holiday, thanks for sharing. I have more I'd like to say but have to somewhere to be. Sorry.

I know many a man that love a good hearted debate and don't take it personal. In my family that was considered entertainment! In my H family they didn't even ask questions like "mom who is my brother's father? I've never in all my 30 years on earth heard you mention him." They didn't ask questions and they didn't discuss anything. And now I feel like that aspect of his personality and our very different upbringings has in fact become a HUGE issue.

My mother warned me when I first started dating H and before she loved him, that marrying someone from such a different background could be difficult. He had no father, no traditional family structure to speak of, very sheltered and poor. Because of these things I thought he would MORE highly value the same things I did because he would want them more. For a long while he led me to believe I was right. Then one day and for a whole year he decided he didn't value them anymore. He proved to me that I was wrong.

Just heard from our MC who convinced me to come back for 1 final wrap up session. That is Wed.

Later
2

I'll ask my H what kind of picture he wants to send. Maybe we can agree on something.

This morning he told me he felt like there was no fruit for the year of work he has put into our marriage. I said I understand "I feel like there is no fruit for the 8 years of work I put into our marriage." He said that if we look at his old company as Egypt, we are wandering the desert looking for the promised land. He said looking back at Egypt like the Israelites did won't do us any good. I agreed with him and said I was committed to finding the promised land. But I also reminded him that his old company was NO Egypt! It had always been our promised land, providing us with the life we had dreamed of. He made it Egypt and so yes, sometime I do miss that life. He got upset when I made that comment and shook his head and put it down. I found myself wondering (AGAIN) what is it that I'm supposed to say? I am being honest, and speaking kindly...in love! But yet he acts defeated. I really, in all honesty, CAN'T understand why he CAN'T just acknowledge my comment as MY truth, say he understands and move on. Instead it is defeat, me throwing it in his face, being mean. I just don't know how to talk to him and a whole year after MC, still don't. Apparently, I never did it right in the 8 years of marriage and still am not doing it right even after a year of MC.

Would you believe me if I said that before his A, I can't even think of a time when he said something that hurt my feelings. Do you think it is because in 6 years of marriage he never said anything critical to me or disagreed with me? NO, I just took it for what it was. He pulled examples from us dating of things I said that hurt his feelings. Really, I think it is utterly ridiculous.

I can't spend the rest of my marriage walking on eggshells so I don't offend my overly sensitive H. At some point he needs to learn to get some tough skin. I'm very frustrated by his reaction to our conversation this morning. I thought it was going well. We were having a deep heart to heart. Then in comes the hanging of his head, the deep sighs of defeat. It is irritating if you want to know the truth.

2

2, look at your use of the words "I" and "He". All I see is blame and justification. What you consider a "good hearted debate" in actuality ends up being your ammunition on the battle ground that widens the divide between you two. You were correct when you said he is defeated. It's obvious he is. And yes, he may need to "toughen up", but you need to "soften up". Unless of course your goal is to set the stage for an uncontested separation.

Brutal honesty is not honesty...
I did not mean my H does not debate with me...he's italian irish!!!
He thinks he is right most of the time.
However, on the conversations with men in general about relationship matters, if all "appears" to be fine, to a man, "all is fine"...that's what I am saying.
When we feel the need to rehash our situation, and we have every right to do so, understand that it opens up an old wound not only in us but in our spouses.
My H (no duh) wishes this had never happened and truly wished I had never found out. But I did and here we are.
2-Your H is not overly sensitive. You are a bit too hard in your skin at times. It sounds like he trys to come up with an answer for you and your words push his words back into his mouth (does this make sense?).
And no, no one should feel they are walking on eggshells in any relationship, but some people's skin is more sensitive. What you thought was attractive, due to your sitch, you now find offensive. Are you looking at a way to dislike "everything" about you H lately? This A has ripped at your heart so hard I'm not sure if it can be properly sewn back together again.

Work with you H's deep sighs of defeat. Why does he feel so defeated by your words? Listen...

Yes I am trying to build up a case. I am fully aware of that and I am glad that I am. He built up a case against me without realizing it so he could have a year long A. I know what I am doing. I know it isn't helpful and I desire to change. The desire to be less harsh, the desire to be more sensitive to him, the desire to love him and trust and restore my marriage is there. But I haven't been able to do much with desire. I feel defeated.

I met with a friend from church just now who is also a BS. She was able to speak some good words of encouragement to me. So right now, I don't feel like I'll never be happy again. I feel a little OK. But that feeling is so fleeting.

Bye for now
2

Hold on to that feeling!!!!!

See, this is why I would be a bad marriage counselor. Although I can see the wisdom in Holiday and Rocked's comments, my first instinct is to be really pissed off at 2's H. As a counselor, I would try to make HIM see HER point of view, as he is the one who damaged the marriage in the first place. Recovery should be, first and foremost, for/about the BS and the damage that the WS has done. Only after I had gotten through to him that all his sighing and putting his head down and conflict avoiding is only making things worse, would I work on 2 and her approach to the marriage, or how she says things or any of the other things that have been said(even by me).

Although the BS, in reality, does a major portion of the work in restoring a marriage that they did not break, the WS has to make it appear that he/she is doing that. The WS has to be willing to "take one, or fifty, or 70 x 70 for the team". After all, it was the WS who was careless and selfish and made more than just a mere mistake, but made a choice that changed the fabric of someone's life and beliefs. They have to be willing to never get to that point where they are sick of the dwelling and want to move on. They have to realize that what they did can never be forgotten and should never question the emotions from a BS. Of course, I am not talking about accepting physical, or mental abuse...but they have to be willing to accept what is dished out while humbly asking forgiveness. Although I know that sounds bad, I do not actually mean it the way it comes out...but I cannot get my words down how I want(I have sat here for 10 minutes trying to think of a way to say that better).

I know I have said this before, but I just do not understand a WS who whines about their needs, or wants or says they are "defeated", or says you need to say things to me in a different way, or asks for ANYTHING, to be honest. They do not have that right anymore. It is only when the BS offers the "right to ask" that requests can be made. It should be the BS who decides when talking of the A is over, and when the marriage is working...b/c the WS has already destroyed it and has proven to not know what a good marriage is in the first place.

See...I guess I should put the marriage counseling degree out of my mind. I really get upset when I hear that the BS has to do something yet again to make the WS happy. That is bull...the WS should spend the rest of his/her life on his/her knees thanking us for staying with a person who could completely reject us in such a way. And although I treat my H with respect and caring and DO let him make requests...in fact have to convince him that it is OK, that I want to do nice things for him, I just cannot stand being told or listen to others being told to do just that. I guess it is the rebel in me.

2, I DO hope that you and your H can find a common ground that is strong and will hold the weight of your future. What really helped me lately, and what I think I finally got across to my H, is that forgiveness and pain/dwelling can exist at the same time. Forgiveness and sometimes hating your spouse can exist at the same time. Trusting and not trusting can exist at the same time. Moving on and still being devestated can exist at the same time. Just because you think about it does not mean that you are not moving on. It does not mean that you are stuck or that you are in a bad place. It means that you are remembering a horrible event in your life, YET you are choosing to live your life and be happy when you can. Do not get caught up in this OR that...it is more this AND that. Does that make any sense?

Anyway, girl scout party was fun, Tomorrow H and I are off for a day of shoppinng in the big city. Hope all of you have a good night and a better tomorrow.

True

You said it very well True and I understand this. However, if continued in this way...the WS's head will remain down.

It may take us a lifetime to recover. I try hard to choose not to live like this for my lifetime. I just couldn't breathe.

Whenever I feel threatened or worried, I do talk to my H about it. I just don't choose to rehash the A past as often or for the reasons now we may be having a difficulty. I understand how difficult this is for you and 2. I'm not sure I could have been as brave as the both of you have been through all this had my H's A turned into more that a ONS, so to speak, or if he had come home and gave me the ol' "I'm not in love with you anymore" routine. I would probably be feeling exactly as 2 and would be wishing I could kick my H's *ss to the curb!

True, did I tell you in past posts that my parents (after all their children were adults) were "swingers". My Dad would joke and say that it was "what" my Mom wanted. She just went along to make my Dad happy and became extremely unhappy in front of us. She too felt it would "cure" my Dad's wandering eye problem (don't have physical proof of him having A's). which I don't think it cured anything other than my Mom gaining a female roommate for the next 10 years (a swinger friend of theirs divorced and became "buddies" with my parents...or should I say my Dad gained another wife...crazy). Last year they had to place this woman in a nursing home (she suffers from an organic brain disorder...like alzheimer's). It really messed up our family (especially my very, very Christian brother) and the grandkids. We had a heck of a time explaining to them who this lady living with Grandma and Grandpa was. Needless to say we aren't close to my parents for the past 10 years.

I spoke to my H about what you had wrote about your H's possible desire to swing. My H said to tell you "bad medicine". He knows several (now divorced) FD couples who "dabbled" with swinging and one of the spouses never really could handle it when they thought they could.

I wish for all of us peace. I still worry just as all of you do that my marriage won't work out, or that I am going to be taken for a fool once again. But, like I said before, I just can't continue to live my life like that...waiting for the other shoe to drop (well in my case, the third shoe).

holiday

Thanks True! How much do you trust me? Enough to make a cool purchase of White Sox world seris (I actually typed superbowl first and had to change it) memorabilia and believe I would pay you back? I'm not an internet shopper usually (bad experience trying to buy him something online once before. Spent $175.00 and it went to waste). I can give you my cell phone and if you find a good jersey in a 3XL run the price by me and I'll pay you back or give you the credit card number (wait! I do want to do that?). If you don't want to, no problem. E-mail me if you are willing and I'll give you my cell.

Yep that feeling is fleeting. It is gone already!

Good night.
2

2,

I would be happy to do that for you, but I will not be in the Chicago area until after Christmas. Where I live, it is Cardinals territory, and I cannot find White Sox things even though we live in Illinois and not Missouri...go figure. I can look online, which is where I do most of my purchases, b/c I live in the middle of nowhere. What kind of jersey? Just one that says World Series, or what?

Hope you all have a good day. Talk to you tonight sometime

True

If you find a USC NCAA Champion t-shirt (XL) will you get it for me? You can use 2's credit card number. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Feeling horrible today. I think I will discuss seperation tomorrow on our last day of MC. I really can't say anything to him without him either getting upset or acting defeated. How am I supposed to go forward when if I say something as common as I gave Brad Pitt and Angelina less than 2 years, I'm making snide remarks. I can't live like that. I'm offending him? Please, nothing I do can offend like sticking your **** in some nasty OW.

2

2, Sorry you feel horrible. Whatever you do I hope you end up finding peace.