BB:

Brit, thanks for the kind words. I didn't want to threadjack Dazed's thread. I have given my word that I am "done" with his thread. I feel I am only doing damage to what he is trying to accomplish, so I wanted to respond in a new post to you.

Unfortunately sometimes my "view" (which in the end is not that different than the mainstream) is seen as Anti-marriage building by certain people. It interestingly seems that my name is brought into the fray when people are thinking divorce or separation.......as if that is my "cause" here or what I "champion". I know that is not what you meant, but some people see it all the same.

Because I do not focus on the "plans" or offer opinions that are in 100% concert with meeting needs of an actively cheating spouse, I worry that my posts can be actually destructive to Betrayeds in shock here. This thread is a perfect example. Dazed, I am sorry if I derailed or slowed your plans for you saving your marriage. It was not with intent to do this.


It is tough to be a Betrayed Spouse and yet try to have the levity to decipher all of this B$.....Yes, that is why calling the "experts" is advised (and I concur), but sometimes I truly have to "wonder".

I bring up the fact that even the "experts" to the "experts" should be challenged....or at least questioned (sometimes). If someone dares disagree with what has been advised by the "expert" is is almost akin to sacriealge (sp?). I guess I am just uncomfortable sometimes keeping my mouth shut when I so strongly agree or disagree with an opinion or POV. Where I work, judgements or opinions are CONSTANTLY questioned and questioned, and then "requestioned"....No one's "expert" opinion is taken just as fact. You better be "right" because people's lifes are on the f-ing line. You can be a Harvard trained Cardiothoracic Surgeon with 10,000 cases under your belt and get questioned "more" than is allowed on here.....LOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> You should see what our Morbidity and Mortalty Conferences are like......thankfully, this is striken from an official medical record. As I have said many times, I have seen first hand an "expert" be wrong...and the outcome be much more tragic than what happens here...death !!!!


Brit. There are some people who would argue that you should have stayed in "plan A" and continued to fight for your marriage as eventually the "affair" will end and then you could have perhaps gotten the Wayward back. They will say, you never know what could have happend, if you just kept "plan A'ing till he came home". I think I remember someone lamenting that even staying loyal to a WS for 5 or so years may be frutiful as they knew a man who had recovered his marriage after doing so....well $hit, I knew someone who had Stage IV Squamous Cell Lung Carcinoma and shattered the mortality trends... That kind of thinking is so self destructing that I get sick to my stomach thinking about it. Yet, to some people, they truly believe that and believe a "vow is a vow" no matter what, so who am I to question that. I worry that when one reads that, they believe that doing a type of "plan" will guarantee a result (even though this is not what is advertised, or perhaps it is, isn't there are 100% guarantee on the home page of some sort?) , and yet when they don't get the "results" they want, they grow so sad and frustrated because they fail to understand that all of the "plans" in the world can NOT ever make a person do something they want. And, for anyone who thinks I am $hitting on the MB program, I am not, so save your breath and rhetoric.

That is why I am such a champion of PLAN SELF RECOVERY over the specific plans of A and B (which, yes, I know are intended to do the same thing). I think too many people get so caught up in what "plan" they are in, and fail to see the forest for the trees. I don't believe you need a Plan "A" or whatever to respect yourself and maintain your self integrity.....and to perosally recover from infidelity. And yes, I can speak from experience here. Sometimes this view is seen as anti-marriage building (although I like to think not by many), and that is unfortunate.

Just my opinion, and I stick by it, for better or worse.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No lem...I get your thoughts...and I do feel with you that some people push A far over logic...and what I think will work...

And in the end, I defer to a professional because I myself am not one in this area by profession! They know more than I know...

But also I understand that if you don't feel comfortable with professional advice given, you seek out a second opinion? Guess my medical spots are showing through.

Personal recovery is something that is NOT NEARLY embraced enough here!

I swear, it is though some see people like myself a MB failure...why? Well I don't have a platinum band anymore on my left ring finger. But that doesn't mean I am...I feel the exact opposite! I am a MB champ and survivor...I made it out with dignity, some wit, and my sanity...

For me, I feel a plan A was too long. I think it was allowed to go on way too long.

When one is in such a stressful sitch as an active affair, it is SO DIFFICULT TO BE TRULY OBJECTIVE...

Hence, why many extremely smart people are right here on this board tonight.

When the sitch is tossed in your face, the brain is befuddled...what to do? what to say? is anything left?

You just have no direction.

In the end, it's good I feel to offer advice. Offer what you think and feel...but fully aware that the person in the situation should remember that 1)should consult the professionals and 2)if they don't align or are not feeling 100 percent agreeable with what they say, they have free will not to do it.

I really don't think imho that a prolonged plan A when lovebusting and enabling is going on is effective at all.

I sure don't.

It is my opinion that when a BS makes the conscious choice in plan A to follow the "carrot part of the plan" that they not take it too far without remembering "the stick part of the plan"...if you forget the stick, you miss some of the key parts! Everybody thinks A is all about meeting EN's...sure, that's a big part but not all the whole shebang.

And when the BS gets no change at all, or the WS gets progressively more wayward, belligerant, and abusive, and then the BS as result begins LB'ing all over the place, something has to give...if not, the BS is teetering very close to tossing in the towel for good...

B has turned many couples around...I oughta know...it was the ONLY thing that made my wayward extraordinary xh question his horrible behavior at all. A for him was not at all effective.

In the end, I find that daily the patients I see are not at all a textbook. You can always find people that don't fit the norm.

I greatly respect you and your opinions and challenge to many here to remember how to respect themselves...and remember that recovery also happens with the self!

This is where I go wrong. I forget that often people are perfectly happy with the "expert" advice given and the reason there are no complaints or questions about the "expert" advice given is that people are happy with it.....once again, what is "right" for me is not necessarily "right" for someone else......I have to get that through my thick head.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey lem ~ you aren't on the antimarriage squad...you are on the pro-backbone squad.

LMAO....once again, my girl, you "got it"...and that is the "it" I am talking about in my byline. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem....
I always like reading your posts....I don't see them as anti-MB...

I am supporting Dazed here as best as I can....and so are you....we all give the best advice that we can....at the end it is up to Dazed to do what he feels is right.....

Just as you I don't believe one should put their life on hold for YEARS in the hopes that the WS comes back.....I don't....I think you got to work on the M as much as you can and know that you did what you could so that you have no regretts.....this happens to people at different stages....for some it is right after D-day for some it is months after, for others years.....

However, I myself would not give a WS years to come back....no way....I find that I may not even give my H a year as I thought I would....and I am not dealing with a WH....

Keep on posting....

Daisy

I, too, don't want to add to someone's confusion by offering a different POV or opinion when things are already confusing enough in their marriages. Like you, however, I am not comfortable sitting back silently when I have reason to believe that another POV or opinion could be helpful or less detrimental. I work in the counseling field. I have never been one to believe that all things work for all people. We're just too diverse.

I have shared non-MBs POVs or opinions at times. I have been accused of "encouraging someone to damage their marriage"..."being irresponsible in encouraging someone on a path that will destroy their marriage"..."telling someone what they want to hear" to feel good about myself. First of all, I noted that we are all adults on this forum. I don't have that much power over anyone. Secondly, the POV or opinion I shared had sound psychological backing. (That doesn't mean that I think my POVs shouldn't be challenged!)

An "expert"? In what field of thought or theory? At what point in time? With what population...sub-population? In comparison to??? Under what conditions? Within whose beliefs or perceptions? How valid and reliable was the study supporting this "expert" methodology or theory?

I do believe that Dr. Harley offers a method to mending marriages that differs from many other counselors in the field of marriage counseling. I believe new methods are needed since the "success" rate of repaired marriages in traditional counseling is about 10%. Dr. Harley himself, however, states that his methodology seems to work with what he's "viewed and handled with a majority of couples". Not all couples.

I realize that this "exception" would allow some folks an "out" to discredit MB principles. But, I have also seen times when the strict application of MB principles had the potential for harm. We don't always know what other issues (mental and physical health, spiritual, environmental, etc.) may be onboard for someone.

This is a public forum. This is not a forum of "experts". It is not intended to be. I think that we do MBs methodology and principles a disservice if we don't question and/or challenge them at times. That's how new or improved methodology and principles develop.....by NOT automatically accepting what "is" as good enough. If Dr. Harley had done so within the marriage counseling field, he would not have arrived where he is today.

My $.02 worth! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />