Spouse says he is sorry for his actions. No admittance to infidelity just stupid choices. He wants me to forgive him however he doesn't believe he did anything wrong. How do I forgive when he doesn't believe what he did was wrong? What do I say to him?

He doesn't believe so-called "stupid choices" are wrong? Then what does he want forgiveness for?

That's what I'm trying to understand. He said that he should not have done some of the things he did but that he does not believe that they were wrong. He says he should have respected me enough to stop spending time with the female coworker but that he felt he wasnt' doing anything wrong by spending time with her, buying her gifts, so on and so forth.

If they weren't wrong, then why should he have "not done them?" That doesn't make sense.

I don't think he really wants your "forgiveness," he wants you to shut up about it.

He says he should have stopped doing them to show me respect, and that had he stopped we wouldn't be dealing with all of this stuff.

Melody,
Thank you that's what I was thinking. Any ideas on what I say now. I've told him how can I forgive him for something he doesn't believe was wrong.

Apparently he does not want or need your forgiveness if he feels he did nothing wrong, so tell him your forgiveness is unnecessary.

bjs, have you ever caught the radio program Speaking of Faith?

It's a real gem. Your post made me think of a few different editions of that program.

In one, called, "Truth and Reconciliation", they discuss the commission assembled in South Africa during the mid-90s. The notable element: several women forgave a man from the apartheid government who had tortured and murdered their husbands. Fundamental to their ability to forgive him was their belief that he was sincere in his remorse for what he had done. Without that remorse from him, they didn't even consider whether they could have forgiven him. They understood that it was possible he might be irredeemable, in which case their forgiveness would be wasted on him.

In another episode, called "A Spirit of Defiance", Marianne Pearl, the widow of the journalist Daniel Pearl, who was murdered in Pakistan by Islamo-Fascists not long after 9/11, talks about her experience. The idea of forgiveness is treated as just making no sense at all.

Finally, in the episode involving the Buddhist Thich Nhat Hanh, aka "Brother Thay", forgiveness is portrayed as a fundamental part of a religious practice, something granted with no concern for whether or not the recipient was deserving of it.

The reason I bring up these programs is because they're excellent, and because forgiving someone who has hurt you and is not sorry for it is complicated, and difficult, and personal. I don't think you are obligated to forgive someone who is not contrite. I think if you can, that's very good. More than very good. Almost miraculous. I also think that some of us think we've forgiven someone, and then after they go on hurting us, we discover that our forgiveness was more conditional than we thought, and that in reality we're still disappointed in that person and are not ready to excuse them for the harm they've done.

GC

bjs, I most certainly understand where you are as I am in the same place. WS emailed and phoned his high school love over the last four months and the conversations were longing and sexual. There was no PA because she lives far away. WS will not apologize for the "affair" because he said it was not an affair. He will only apologize for doing something inappropriate and wants me "to get over it". Since he is only sorry for the damage to our marriage and not sorry for the actual act, I am having trouble with forgiveness too. He shows no real remorse and mostly annoyance that I am upset.

Forgiveness is something we decide to do. I realize that I could forgive him without his confession. Just as Christ said on the cross, "Father, forgive them as they know not what they do." However, I am a mere human and an extrememly hurt and betrayed wife so I am not capable of forgiveness at this time without an admission of what I am supposed to forgive him for.

They just don't want to admit to what they did to THEMSELVES. If the tables were turned they would certainly see that is was a betrayal. They know it was wrong but don't want to face their own acts. As long as they don't admit they can shelter their own hearts from the destruction that they caused. And for me, if he can't face the truth of what it was, he can't really learn from it and make sure that it doesn't happen again. Those are just my thoughts about it at this time.

bjs, when he is truly repentent and truly wants forgiveness, then you can forgive him. But if he feels he did nothing wrong, there is nothing to be forgiven for. He simply means he wants you to shut up about it. Unfortunately, shutting up about it will not help your marriage.

GC: Thank you, I haven't heard of that program but will look for it. You are right in that I thought I had forgiven my spouse. The thing is when I think we are getting past it I find something else out that he previously lied to me about. My spouse can look me straight in the eyes without blinking and lie to me. I do however see changes he is making and that he is trying. I almost think that he can't face what he may/may not have done.

sickofthis: Thank you too, that is how I feel especially this statement And for me, if he can't face the truth of what it was, he can't really learn from it and make sure that it doesn't happen again One of my biggest fears. This is twice now that his behavior has been suspicious with a female. I don't want a third. Especially since he is now saying that some of our kids behavior issues are my fault because I was to focused on what he was doing and not being the kind of mother I should have been.

Melody: Thank you too. Your statement He simply means he wants you to shut up about it. Unfortunately, shutting up about it will not help your marriage Is exactly how I feel and what I have been trying to explain to him. I have tried for many years to "let it go" and it has not worked. He is now noticing some changes I made three years ago and he thinks they just started. He wants us to be close again. In my gut I believe he is keeping things from me, then there are times I think I am wrong. So much confusion.

How about adapting Dr. Phil's definition of cheating to your situation? Ask him if he would have spent all that time with her if you were sitting there watching. Would he have bought her those "little gifts" if you were there to watch him give them to her? I don't know what the "and so on and so forth" refers to, but I think you see where I'm heading. The thing is, if he wouldn't do any of those activities with you standing there, it's cheating, period. Maybe he'll have an epiphany and begin to understand why he has something to be remorseful for. If he still doesn't...well, it depends on what you are willing to put up with for the remainder of your married life.

As long as we're bringing Dr. Phil into it... he also says that you can't forgive someone & move past something until you feel you have BEEN HEARD. Truly heard and understood. I think it's obvious that your FWH doesn't hear or understand or take responsibility for the pain he has caused you, since he doesn't think he's done anything wrong. No wonder you can't forgive him, he doesn't even feel your pain that he has caused.

MSA

I really recommend you read -- or at least skim -- Mimi's long thread from a week or so ago on Allender's book "Bold Love." I'm reading it now, and it's great.

Here's the upshot: forgiveness is a two way street. The betrayed person, having been wounded, offers to cancel the debt, and start over again. Things will never be the same -- but they can be renewed.

But the part of the perpetrator that makes forgiveness possible is real remorse, a radical redirection of life and feeling.

This is what makes forgiveness possible. Forgiveness longs for reconciliation. You can no more have one-sided forgiveness than you can consummate a marriage all by yourself.

Forgiveness is not the exchange of simple verbal formulae and formalities. It is deep, heart-wrenching stuff on both sides. It's not an effort for either party to feel good and relieve the stress of terrible situation.

If, as the injured party, you make yourself vulnerable, but you get arrogance and denial, this does NOT mean you nurse grudges forever and plot revenge. It means a soul-stirring transaction cannot occur, any more than you can make bread without yeast.

You STILL have to "move on," let go of the past, etc. But it's solo. It's your own effort for your own life and well-being.

It sounds like your WH wants you to cancel the debt -- but doesn't want to tell you how much he owes. He wants a blanket pardon for crimes he doesn't want you to know about yet. This is about him feeling better about himself, and causing the least trouble for himself. And it's a recipe for future revelations and "surprises."

Longhorn:
Thank you, I have said those things to him and he says yes he would. He also says if I would have been with him he wouldn't have been out with her he was deployed at the time. He says he is sorry for not stopping when I asked him to but he did nothing wrong.

Mrs Stowaway
Thank you too, thats just it, I just don't know what to do anymore.

A.M.Martin
Thank you,
I will check out that book.
You STILL have to "move on," let go of the past, etc. But it's solo. It's your own effort for your own life and well-being.
I have tried to move on and I was doing so however I have become somewhat distant emotionally from my spouse. He has started to notice this and wants us to become connected again. I told him so long as there was stuff untold I couldn't do that. He says there isn't I wonder what if I'm wrong and there isn't?

It sounds like your WH wants you to cancel the debt -- but doesn't want to tell you how much he owes. He wants a blanket pardon for crimes he doesn't want you to know about yet. This is about him feeling better about himself, and causing the least trouble for himself. And it's a recipe for future revelations and "surprises."
I agree, I don't think he can handle what he did. He has changed and continues to work on himself. One of my biggest fear is the stuff that one day will come out as they continue to do. The latest truth he told which he denied previously was dancing with this girl. He said he never had which in fact he just admitted that he did, fast and slow dances with her.

What do I do?

Hi All,

Have not been here for quite some time. Popping in to see what you are all saying about the subject as of course I am having problems with this myself. At least SOME good has come from the recent "flashbacks" and fights that H and I have had, as we are going to resume our MB course that we have let go for a long time. We got to the point that we were doing quite well for awhile with doing the course together and I think you get that false sense of security in your M and the attitude is "On with life". Then one day there's a fight about something totally unrelated to the EA that happened 10 months prior and all the terrible hurtful memories come flooding back like the red sea. Makes me realize that we have not really resolved anything. Yes, H is sorry that he hurt me. Yes, I believe that he really does love me a great deal. Yes, there has been absolutely NC with OW. Yes, he is MORE THAN committed to make our marriage work. But NO he does not admit to even an EA. According to him she was only a "drinking buddy" after bowling. I think when he says he is very sorry for hurting me he (1) does not come close to understanding how core deeply he hurt me. (2) Says that he is sorry for staying out too late on bowling night and making me worry, that's what he is sorry for. Nothing ever went on that was inappropriate. Says he is also sorry for refusing at first to give up the friendship with her. And for all the sneaky phone calls to her when he knew how it was hurting me.

Possibly like you all have said, I feel as though I have not yet been heard, and that's why within the last month or so this ugly ol monster has been rearing his head. Believe it or not H was the one this morning to suggest that we get back into MB course. But do I believe that he is really sorry? I believe that he just wants to make it all go away, and go on with our lives. He has a hard time understanding why I am now having these "flashbacks". And to tell you the truth, it is surprising to me as well as I thought the issue had been resolved. Even though I have yet to get any kind of a "confession of foul play" from him either admitting to an EA or PA or both, he has made the decision to stay in the M and work to make it better. There has been NC with OW. So why are the flashbacks starting again? I have to FORGIVE him completely if we are to be really healed. If I AM TO BE REALLY HEALED. I really need to take this to the Lord in prayer. BIG TIME. And I don't think we have gotten far enough into the course to get into the core of the problem.

Sooooo in this case, at least in H's mind, he has taken the necessary actions to be forgiven for a specific behavior. For hurting me. Maybe I am just not buying the story of no EA? And maybe I really don't want to go thru the hurt of knowing that there really was an A of any nature.

The posts have been very insightful on the subject. Thanks for listening.

Tarehurts