Ok, here's a question for the ladies.

Assuming I decide to start dating again, I am wondering if I should be bolder on the early dates.

I have a tendecy to be very gentlmanly on the first few dates. I rarely will kiss a woman on the first date, unless she makes is obviously clear that she wants to be kissed. Usually, I wait to the 3rd date. By that then she should want to kiss me or she should not be going out with me.

But, I am wondering if that is far to conservative an approach. The last few women I dated before my self imposed break from dating, all told me that I was a nice guy, but that they felt no chemistry.

Maybe, I was not doing what was necessary to get the chemistry bubbling??

Note: When I talk about being more bold, I mean things like holding hands, putting my arm around her waist, and, yes, a kiss on her on the lips. I am NOT talking about passionate kissing, making out and sexual intimacy.

So, here is my question. If I am unsure as to how bold I should be is it better to error on the side of being a somewhat to bold, or to be to conservative.

I fear that my conservative behavior left them thinking that I did not find them that interesting and was not interested in a romance with them. Also, it is a simple fact, that touching another person is very personal evokes feelings in we humans. We are, after all, physical beings.

So, what do you ladies think? I eagerly await your advice and wisdom.

This is easy one. You should be - yourself. :-)

So, what are you? Conservative or opposite, behave the way YOU feel. (Of course, just if a lady accepts that. :-))

When to touch, when to kiss, when to show more, or less... it should not be matter of counting dates, but your feelings at the specific moment.

You can show your wish in many ways (glance, touch, tone of your voice), and all of this is more effective (and can cause less 'damage' then any concretly spoken word/suggestion/question, especially on first meetings...), and when you feel so - do it.
Just watch her reaction, and learn to recognize her signs... if she is responding the same way, or it is unproper for her... then behave accordingly...

And, if someone doesn't like/feel your way, hey, you didn't waste so much time pretending/calculating/planning, and - life goes on...

I would not expect a man I just met to want to or try to kiss me on the first date or be overly affectionate.That to me is highly inappropriate.We would have to get to know one another for some time before I would feel comfortable with that.I think people are in such a rush these days and have no idea about romance and anticipation.And to be honest,chemistry that happens right off the bat is more lust than anything IMO and not always a true indicator of a long term relationship in many cases.

I like to be able to learn about someone over time,feel trusting,feel secure and get to know more by interaction.You just cannot do that on one or 2 or even 3 dates effectively.That to me is also a myth that we fall into a trap because of.If we do not "feel chemistry" right away then,well,that's it,there is just no chance of anything good happening. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

If I do feel good about the man I am with,then hand holding and arms about the waist would be nice.

I am not divorced yet("formalities") but do put a lot of thought into how I will want things to happen for me when the day comes around that I do date again.Reading this board is very interesting.And for what it's worth,I find men who act" gentlemanly" are a rare find and I would love to be with someone like that in the early dating stages.

O

OctoberGirl,
thanks for your comments. I understand what you are saying. But, often I find that what women say they want, and what they actually respond to are two different things.

I think being a gentleman is important.
but, I suspect that being to conservative in one's approach to a woman leaves her thinking there is not much interest.

Maybe, we need to separte being a gentleman from being conservative on a date.

JE,

It seems to me after reading here a lot(and in my experiences with friends and other's) that some women just aren't sure what they want themselves so then when a man comes along,how is he supposed to know? If you aren't crystal clear what you want and what your boundaries are,then it makes it hard for other's to stick with them as well and it gives other's mixed messages.

Of course every woman/man is different but I think part of the fun is finding all these things out about one another.If it's one thing I can't stand to hear is the playing games that people do and then wonder why things don't work out.But again,IMO,some people make rapid judgment calls on what they perceive rather than what is.Like what you mentioned.If you are not "aggressive/assertive" toward a woman,as an example,in HER time frame,well,then she might write you off as "conservative".Right there is a potential gone and if both parties took the time to discover more about themsleves then there is more possibility.There are very high expectations placed at the onset of dating.

I think men(and women) SHOULD be conservative on the first few dates.What is the rush? I don't understand how people can expect so much in the first few times of meeting.Of course if the man hits you or has an obvous roving eye that is extreme or something like that then that may just be the red flags to not continue.But aside from those situations,people should give one another time to adjust,feel comfortable and open up about themselves.Part of finding out what we each want is being secure to be able to open up and talk about all that.You can't possibly know and expect that to happen right away.To me that is very foolish.

Unfortunately,finding people who think this way might not be that abundant.I see people here at MB already rushing into new "relationships" before they are even D'd! And I ususally remind them that it isn't right to do that on so many levels but,they get encouraged too which I just don't understand.It's wrong.

I just find that the less complicated you are in your own life may make it just that much easier for dating.I guess I will see.I will have no problem saying "Bye" to a man if he isn't right for me and what I need but I am also going to allow the possibilities to have time to grow.I feel very good being on my own so there is no requisite need on my part to HAVE a man in my life.I can be just fine either way so IMO,that pressure is not there for me.

As an example again,just to illustrate a point and hopefully this won't come across the wrong way,it's just my personal viewpoint since this topic came up:

I don't drink,don't smoke,don't do drugs,don't even drink coffee(lol),eat a lot of organic food,like to be active and enjoy life and be with my 2 daughters,need honesty and romance and am not high maintanence but FS is a top 3 need for me.I have no hangups and am very secure in my life.Ok,that's about me in a nutshell.See? Not much to uncover and no baggage whatsoever.Totally uncomplicated and that's what I would like in a new relationship.Easy to say but if a man doesn't have that capacity then I am not going to get involved.I will not deal with alcoholism and beer bellies,late nights out with "the boys",disrespect,aggressive behavior,roving eyes,poor hygiene and responsibility,etc,etc.

Anyway,point is,you have to be honest with yourself so you can be with other's.If these women you date say one thing and mean or want another than that to me is playing games.Why not be just completely honest? I am certain though I will have my share of trying to weed out the liars and users too when it comes to my turn at dating.I wish it could all be more simple and fun.Maybe it will be,who knows.It's not my time yet though.

O

JE~~

I'm not experienced in dating, but I can tell you what I would hope for.

I have been on two dates in 6 months. The first guy wanted to hold my hand the first date, that would have been too much for me, and I told him so [this was after the fact]. I should be flattered, but it was too soon for me.
What he did do though that I thought was nice, was a light gentle touch on my back. Not the arm around me move, but just a light touch when I stood near him. It felt nice.
Kissing would be too soon for me the first date. I need to feel things out first. After the first initial date, I could possibly think about it though. Not big time kissing, but a nice kiss.

Justin, just a note to you men though. I do feel for you in this whole dating thing. Making that phone call is hard! This guy that I went out with this weekend called me, [5 days after getting my #, I all but gave up on him]. I couldn't talk when he called me, I was at work, and asked if I could call him back. I couldn't believe how hard it was to call him. I put the # in, and just looked at my phone. At that point, I realized how tough you have it!

Good luck if you decide to jump in! As someone else said, most importantly, just be you. That's who the special someone is going to like anyway!

Karona

I like the advice to be yourself & touch when you feel like it. The kind of touching I like on a first date is just a little touch, maybe on the hand or arm when you want to stress something in conversation, a touch to the back when going through a door, when you help her with her chair or coat a touch on the shoulder. At the end of the evening maybe hold her hand, look her in the eyes & give her a kiss on the cheek, pull back with a nice smile & see if maybe she'd like another kiss.

I definitely go for the light touch on the back or elbow. Also, a look can convey more that a touch.

When I first started dating after my divorce, I thought I wanted kisses (boldness) right away so I would know he was interested, and becuase I was craving attention and wanted to feel "wanted". But I've learned that he can show he's interested in many ways, and I really respect the ones that DON'T kiss on the first date. One guy gave me a sweet kiss on the forehead - that was fine. Another one leaned in real quick and gave a quick peck on the side of my neck - that was sweet. I could tell he was nervous, and wasn't sure he shoudl do it, but he wanted to do something to let me know he was attracted to me. It was fine. So a genuine hand-shake, hug, or peck on the cheek is fine for the first date. And second date also. On the second or third date, depending on how everything is going, go for the kiss or ask permission. 2 guys have asked permission at the end of the 2nd date "I was thinking about kissing you and wanted to know if that would be OK?" or something.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Just my 2 cents. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hmm. I like it when a man desires me, provided I'm attracted to him too. I'm not a touchy-feely person, so I would not react well to someone holding my hand or putting his arm around me until after the first kiss.

The kiss is sort of my way of giving (or witholding) permission to kiss me again, hold me, etc.

You know, with regards to what women say they want and what they actually want, I think of that line from Hitch "No woman gets up in the morning saying 'I hope I'm not swept off my feet today.'"

Justin,

I think for every woman you will get a different answer. Personally I'm not a touchy feely person and have an extreme sensitivity to people entering my personal space. That being said, the only guy I've dated for any more than one or two dates was one that held my hand and stroked it across a table on our first date while conversing with me in a very open way for hours.

For me that personal space barrier has to be breached by someone brave enough to hold my hand and let me have time to relax with that boundary broken.

I don't do more than give a hug after a date because I prefer to know someone better before becoming more "intimate".

If you'd really like to get closer then you will have to get her more relaxed. I would suggest that at the end of a date, perhaps to put your hands on her upper arms while you stand at arms length or a little closer and just rub a little while you tell her what a nice evening you had. That can easily lead to a nice hug. Hold her and breathe on her neck a little - just a nice gentle embrace.

Women crave affection without wanting to feel that a guy is just after one thing - so don't go for the kiss unless she goes for it first - she will lean in or turn for it. I guarantee you that if you just hug her and breathe on her neck a little (regular breathing - nothing dramatic) that it creates that chemistry you are looking for. I got this technique out of book on dating.

V.

In my experience, quick chemistry doesn't always last. Chemistry that builds over time from friendship that blossoms is more lasting.

We live in a society that wants everything instantly (how many "One Minute" books have been written, for example?). We also expect all our problems to be solved instantly or we move on. Sad sad state of affairs, IMO.

Justin - you sound like the only kind of guy I would care to go out with and I'm sure there any other women who feel the same way. But we might not be easy to find! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh I love this thread!
I AM dating, and I just play it by ear. I do think the guy kind of takes the lead, with me anyway, but I like the advice to watch and get to know, then do what YOU want/feel.
I LOVE a gentleman!! Open my doors, put your hand on the small of my back and guide me...(and it IS hard to find these days).
However, I've been seeing one guy for about 3 weeks now, that I've seen probably a dozen times, and a move he has not made!! And you know, it's okay...I don't know why, but I'm okay with it. It just doesn't seem "right" for now. We are getting to know each other as it is. He lets me know he is interested in other ways. He flirts a little, he sends frequent text or email messages...I definitely know he is interested, just not in a hurry and it's a welcome change...
On the other hand, if a guy would be willing to stick his toungue down my throat after just meeting me for two hours, he's out...
I think it's up to you and what you want. If the girl is interested, she'll stick around for as long as you need!
Maybe those ladies "lacking chemistry" really were.
It's nice to see you care and are interested in getting some feedback...let us know how it goes, but I say just follow your heart and gut...

Drita,

Sounds like you found a keeper to me!
What you're describing is what I'm hoping for someday.
I think the slower approach is going to be much more meaningful when the romance begins. Enjoy Drita!

I think JE should do as he has been doing, he will find the lady that will appreciate his gentlemenly actions.

Karona

I guess I will just keep being myself, but I do think I will be a little bit more agressive. I tend towards shyness so being a bit more aggressive will probably make me "normal". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Deja Vu, you flatter me. Thank you.

Ohhh... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> my flatter wasn't flattering enough in your last thread when I said "we're not dating you (darnit!)". hmmmph! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> I'll have to be bolder! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Justin, women usually do mean what they say, only they don't say it very loud because they are acting sweet. It's a tendency we have on dates. I would say No, do not kiss on the first or second date, touching her back, holding her waist, gently stroking her arm, even offering a neck massage is okay-third date is ok for light kiss.

A lot of men have a rule, no kissing, or sexy talk by third date, and no more dates. So women who are dating are watching and waiting. If by the third date there is no sexual talk, a kiss is find by me, and you know how picky I am. Sexual talk or comments are big turn off for me, as it usually leads to a lack of communication. Women respond yes to sexual talk, after all we have the same needs as men only we have to repress them better-but we don't like our feelings to be played with or teased. If you give a massage and tease a woman about her response she will get angry later.

If you are a woman and cuddle a man until he obviously is having a reaction and leave, you are a tease right? So while it's okay on some level, there is bound to be some resentment there later. Some men are more sensitive than others, just like some women. If she hasn't dated in a long time, she will be more wary, suspicious, but confused about her own body at the same time.

My personal experience is that I prefer people who haven't been dating a lot-either due to divorce, or because there are goals being worked on, my feeling is they are dating often and not in a relationship, it's a playing the field kind of stage in life and I don't want to be there. If I were you I would mention not dating a lot and choose women who are the same. Then be honest and you can learn together.

Nat

This stuff is clearly rocket science. I don't get it. But then my grad studies aren't in physics - that must be it.

Justin,
I fell very hard many years ago for a man whose behavior on our first dates might have been considered "conservative." No kissing, no touching, no flirting. I thought he was shy. Years of frustration and pain later, I realize he was always ambivalent about me (and possibly about sex in general), but not honorable enough to just bow out of the relationship I was forging with him single-handedly. So, yeah, when a man doesn't display some sign of physical attraction, I now consider it a Great Big Huge Red Flag.
But showing that you are physically attracted doesn't have to mean you maul a lady on the first date.

Oh wow, never thought of that curious53, I'm the one dating the guy for a month with absolutely no action. In fact, this thread has got me questioning some things and this is a really good point to consider...thanks for posting!